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Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 86

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Mocata said:

RogueLeader said:

Legit question, what do you need to know to be able to do a mindtrick?

Since it was never taught to anyone, nothing. Beyond the knowledge that such a trick exists.

DrDre said:

Which is fine, I do to at a surface level of popcorn entertainment, but when I dig a little deeper, I get more out of the PT.

Really? I’d say they’re equally hollow except without being entertaining.

I disagree. I think the PT greatly expanded the universe and the lore, and while there are obvious issues in the execution, conceptually the PT is pretty strong, and imaginative. Lucas’ concepts combined with better dialogue and a good director would have resulted in some very good films, I believe, whereas I believe the ST thusfar is much more flawed on a conceptual level, whilst being pretty unimaginative, driven largely by nostalgia, but is able to translate what little there is better to the screen.

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Which begs the question of how a Jedi master teaches a Padawan to do it. Just send them into a sleazy bar and make a drug dealer rethink their life? Also, it’s weird it’s actually called a mind trick, given that cynics like Han dismissed the Force as simple tricks and nonsense.

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SilverWook said:

Which begs the question of how a Jedi master teaches a Padawan to do it. Just send them into a sleazy bar and make a drug dealer rethink their life?

As with all Force powers it is about being in tune with yourself, and with the Force, reaching a level of enlightenment, that takes time and effort.

Also, it’s weird it’s actually called a mind trick, given that cynics like Han dismissed the Force as simple tricks and nonsense.

I don’t believe the Jedi call it a Jedi mind trick. If I remember it correctly, the term was only used in a derogatory manner by others in the OT and PT.

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DrDre said:

I disagree. I think the PT greatly expanded the universe and the lore, and while there are obvious issues in the execution, conceptually the PT is pretty strong, and imaginative. Lucas’ concepts combined with better dialogue and a good director would have resulted in some very good films, I believe, whereas I believe the ST thusfar is much more flawed on a conceptual level, whilst being pretty unimaginative, driven largely by nostalgia, but is able to translate what little there is better to the screen.

Eh. It’s all pretty dumb to be honest, the way Yoda teaches in a tiny room of kids, the midichlorians, the rule of two, the idea one Sith can cloud the minds of an entire Jedi council. For all the problems in TLJ it at least roots the idea of the force in ESB territory. On topic I worry how EpIX will try and connect the to disparate eras. Probably in a way that’s embarrassing.

SilverWook said:

Which begs the question of how a Jedi master teaches a Padawan to do it. Just send them into a sleazy bar and make a drug dealer rethink their life? Also, it’s weird it’s actually called a mind trick, given that cynics like Han dismissed the Force as simple tricks and nonsense.

From what we see it’s just figured out and self taught. Odd that Han doesn’t believe in it yet Jabba openly talks about the old days, but I guess that’s just sloppy ROTJ script writing.

Yub Nub for life

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Jabba is a lot older than Han though. Han grew up firmly in a post-Jedi world.

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Mocata said:

DrDre said:

I disagree. I think the PT greatly expanded the universe and the lore, and while there are obvious issues in the execution, conceptually the PT is pretty strong, and imaginative. Lucas’ concepts combined with better dialogue and a good director would have resulted in some very good films, I believe, whereas I believe the ST thusfar is much more flawed on a conceptual level, whilst being pretty unimaginative, driven largely by nostalgia, but is able to translate what little there is better to the screen.

Eh. It’s all pretty dumb to be honest, the way Yoda teaches in a tiny room of kids, the midichlorians, the rule of two, the idea one Sith can cloud the minds of an entire Jedi council. For all the problems in TLJ it at least roots the idea of the force in ESB territory. On topic I worry how EpIX will try and connect the to disparate eras. Probably in a way that’s embarrassing.

To each his own, I suppose. I personally am not a fan of a corporation taking someone else’s creation, and rooting it somewhere the creator didn’t intend, or no longer intends. It’s Lucas’ saga in my mind, and I’m happy to accept both his original vision, the OOT, and his revised vision, the PT and the SE wrats and all. I would like the current owners to honour that legacy, and Lucas’ vision for the universe and characters he created, and then forge a new future with new material taking it wherever they want, whether it be in TESB territory or otherwise. In any case I don’t see how TLJ with its instant Force powers recieved from on high, light side and dark side balancing each other in quite a literal sense, and critical perspective on the Jedi is any closer to TESB territory than the PT. In TESB becoming a Jedi and mastering the powers that come with it, still took a lot of effort, and the Jedi were still the mythical guardians of peace and justice, an ideal that was still beyond reproach, left mostly to the imagination. We all take something different from these films, and to some what is displayed in the new films may be consistent with what they took from the OT, whereas for others it isn’t. For me certain aspects of the Force in the ST are closer to the OT than the PT, going back to a more mysterious energy field, but in other ways they are worlds apart, ditching the studying required to master Force powers, and the theme of temptation by the dark side that used to be intimately connected to this process, a theme largely developed in TESB, that then became integral to the entire saga up till the ST.

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DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:

I disagree. I think the PT greatly expanded the universe and the lore, and while there are obvious issues in the execution, conceptually the PT is pretty strong, and imaginative. Lucas’ concepts combined with better dialogue and a good director would have resulted in some very good films, I believe, whereas I believe the ST thusfar is much more flawed on a conceptual level, whilst being pretty unimaginative, driven largely by nostalgia, but is able to translate what little there is better to the screen.

Eh. It’s all pretty dumb to be honest, the way Yoda teaches in a tiny room of kids, the midichlorians, the rule of two, the idea one Sith can cloud the minds of an entire Jedi council. For all the problems in TLJ it at least roots the idea of the force in ESB territory. On topic I worry how EpIX will try and connect the to disparate eras. Probably in a way that’s embarrassing.

To each his own, I suppose. I personally am not a fan of a corporation taking someone else’s creation, and rooting it somewhere the creator didn’t intend, or no longer intends. It’s Lucas’ saga in my mind, and I’m happy to accept both his original vision, the OOT, and his revised vision, the PT and the SE wrats and all. I would like the current owners to honour that legacy, and Lucas’ vision for the universe and characters he created, and then forge a new future with new material taking it wherever they want, whether it be in TESB territory or otherwise. In any case I don’t see how TLJ with its instant Force powers recieved from on high, light side and dark side balancing each other in quite a literal sense, and critical perspective on the Jedi is any closer to TESB territory than the PT. In TESB becoming a Jedi and mastering the powers that come with it, still took a lot of effort, and the Jedi were still the mythical guardians of peace and justice, an ideal that was still beyond reproach, left mostly to the imagination. We all take something different from these films, and to some what is displayed in the new films may be consistent with what they took from the OT, whereas for others it isn’t. For me certain aspects of the Force in the ST are closer to the OT than the PT, going back to a more mysterious energy field, but in other ways they are worlds apart, ditching the studying required to master Force powers, and the theme of temptation by the dark side that used to be intimately connected to this process, a theme largely developed in TESB, that then became integral to the entire saga up till the ST.

If it was rooted where GL originally intended it is very likely this series would never have been outside of the first one. His ideas for the sequels were atrocious imo.

At the very least he should not have sold LA if he didn’t want someone to change anything.

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RogueLeader said:

Legit question, what do you need to know to be able to do a mindtrick?

I think that’s the wrong question. How has the mind trick been used so far in the series, storytelling-wise?

In the Original Trilogy it’s performed by Ben on Star Wars and then by Luke on RotJ, really showcasing to the audience how much he’s grown since the first 2 films and how he’s had his coming of age and is now a master. I don’t mean that as a literal Jedi Master, but as someone with an infinitely better grip of the force than on the previous 2.

On the Prequel Trioogy it’s frequently used by Qui-Gon, the Jedi Master in TPM, and Obi-Wan, but only when a fully realized master in AotC.

So I thought everyone assumed, like me, that it was a power that required a master’s knowledge of the force. For Rey to have learned that the force is real mere hours before successfully doing the mind trick for the first time kind of undermined all that I said above.

But it could’ve been any force power really. Luke didn’t do anything with the force (except for trusting his instincts) in the first film, and Anakin didn’t do anything besides having shown to have very quick reflexes in TPM, and he was very Gary Stu-ish already in that film, so Rey… ugh.

If she had been handled like Korra, as someone with different problems than the previous protagonist with a plot and story being completely different it probably could’ve worked better. But I also think the rehashed setting and plot of the first film doesn’t help Rey stand on her own without being drawn comparisons between her and Luke, especially “power”-wise.

But I disagree that “lack of motivation” is a problem with her character. Quite the contrary, while I couldn’t see why a lot of things that happened to her, well, happened, I could see that her reaction to said things and the shifting in her line of thoughts was very cohesive throughout the 2 ST films.

Anyway, a bit of a ramble towards the end, so, sorry about that. Thank you for your time.

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I see the mind trick as more of a gradient difficulty depending on several factors, which include but are not limited to the weak-mindedness of the subject(s), the number of subjects, and how much you want the subjects to deviate from their intentions. On a scale of Not Really Tricky to Impossibly Tricky:

For Obi-wan vs the stormtroopers, it probably would have been easy to sway their minds and also to have them simply overlook a mildly suspicious pair of droids. However since it’s a group of Stormtroopers, he would have had to mind trick all of them to some extent for it to work. Moderately Tricky

Luke vs Bib Fortuna was probably on the easier side since it was just the one lackey, but not a walk in the park since he had to overrule a direct order. Mildly Tricky to Moderately Tricky depending on the Bib’s SAT score.

Qui-Gon vs Watto is right out due to biology. Impossibly Tricky

Rey vs Daniel Craig would seem simple because it’s just one trooper with a presumably weak mind, but it also goes directly against his orders. Mildly Tricky

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DominicCobb said:

RogueLeader said:

Legit question, what do you need to know to be able to do a mindtrick?

You have to have at least 9000xp.

Knowing the cheat codes in Jedi Outcast helps. 😛

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NeverarGreat said:

I see the mind trick as more of a gradient difficulty depending on several factors, which include but are not limited to the weak-mindedness of the subject(s), the number of subjects, and how much you want the subjects to deviate from their intentions. On a scale of Not Really Tricky to Impossibly Tricky:

For Obi-wan vs the stormtroopers, it probably would have been easy to sway their minds and also to have them simply overlook a mildly suspicious pair of droids. However since it’s a group of Stormtroopers, he would have had to mind trick all of them to some extent for it to work. Moderately Tricky

The novel suggests that Obi Wan only had to mind whammy the lead trooper. IIRC, Luke dares to look back after they pass the checkpoint and the subordinate troopers are arguing among themselves.

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SilverWook said:

The novel suggests that Obi Wan only had to mind whammy the lead trooper. IIRC, Luke dares to look back after they pass the checkpoint and the subordinate troopers are arguing among themselves.

Old Ben voice “Pedal to the metal, Luke!”

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This is meant to be a trilogy right? So it’s impossible not to think of the build-up at this point in the previous trilogies with regard to the characters. That three years between TESB and ROTJ was torture! Was Vader lying? Who was the ‘other’? Would Han make it? How would all this impact Luke, his identity, his training etc etc? Would he turn to the Dark Side? Similarly AOTC left us with the (admittedly built-in) prospect of Anakin’s fall from grace, the upcoming Clone War, the fate of Padme and the Galaxy at large.

What are we anticipating with this series? We all know there was no story. What are the stakes for Rey? Training’s no problem. The Dark Side’s no problem. Her being generally brilliant at everything is no problem. The parents issue is (possible retcon notwithstanding) resolved. Rey is fun to watch at a basic level, and Daisy’s great, but there are no stakes here. The only anticipation we have is built around the trailer - why is there a piece of Death Star in the ocean? Why is Palpatine being alluded to? What the heck is this story going to be about? This is less like a trilogy than it is like one of those Marvel Comics that has concluded one story and ended with the blurb ‘next month, a new artist/writer team and all-new thrills for our heroes! Stay tuned!’…

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Does Rey have deeper feelings for Finn? I thought that was a bit of a jealous look on her face when she saw him tending to Rose. What does she do with the Jedi Encyclopedia set? Is she going to try and turn Kylo away from the dark side again? Is her mental connection with him still strong with Snoke out of the picture? Is Snoke really truly dead?

Rey notwithstanding, how does the Rebellion rebuild when they’re down to one ship and so few people? Where the heck has Lando been all this time? Has Poe matured into a proper leader?

How does the First Order fare under Kylo’s leadership? Do Hux and others really ally themselves with him or are they looking to seize power at the right moment?

And most importantly of all, is the Falcon still infested with Porgs? A Wookiee’s got to eat. 😛

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SilverWook said:

Does Rey have deeper feelings for Finn? I thought that was a bit of a jealous look on her face when she saw him tending to Rose. What does she do with the Jedi Encyclopedia set? Is she going to try and turn Kylo away from the dark side again? Is her mental connection with him still strong with Snoke out of the picture? Is Snoke really truly dead?

Rey notwithstanding, how does the Rebellion rebuild when they’re down to one ship and so few people? Where the heck has Lando been all this time? Has Poe matured into a proper leader?

How does the First Order fare under Kylo’s leadership? Do Hux and others really ally themselves with him or are they looking to seize power at the right moment?

And most importantly of all, is the Falcon still infested with Porgs? A Wookiee’s got to eat. 😛

I believe that the trilogy has always had a story line between Rey and Kylo Ren. She wants him to turn back, but after he still doesn’t trust the Resistance and the Jedi, she leaves him. Her closing the Falcon’s door on him was a way of saying that he needs to find out where he truly belongs by himself. Only the, she will come out to him if he decides to come back to the Light.

Noah Lawson

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

No I don’t think it’s just Rey at all. That’s one of the biggest points of the final scene of TLJ, showing that this is a potential that lives in many (random people) throughout the galaxy. I hope TROS delves into this aspect in some regard.

In the larger sense, in terms of what I’m explaining, it’s my interpretation and I think it’s good that it’s left to interpretation. In my mind where Rey gets her powers from doesn’t matter so much as what she chooses to do with them.

Which brings us back to motivation. It’s not just what she does, but why? Luke wanted to leave Tatooine, and join his friends in the Academy. He wanted to know who his father was, and follow in his footsteps. Luke has personal motivations for joining the fight, for wanting to be a Jedi. What is Rey’s motivation going into TROS? Why does she want to be a Jedi? Thusfar it seems, that it is, because the plot has forced her into this position. Her main motivation for going to find Luke, is the powers she recieved from on high. Then Luke disappoints, and she’s convinced through Snoke’s deception, that Ben Solo is the answer for the Resistance. Then that plan awry, she ends up saving the remains of the Resistance, and is now apparently the heir to the Jedi religion. Her entire character development is heavily plot driven, forced into her position in the story by circumstances.

Gee, that sounds like a Greek myth.