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General Star Wars Random Thoughts Thread — Page 438

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SilverWook said:

DominicCobb said:

Watching ESB on TNT while I’m at the gym, just thinking about how mad fans would get if the movie came out today at the scene where Luke falls off the gantry and gets swooped into the tunnel.

Why?

Because there’s no explanation for it provided in the film. So it’s a “plot hole.”

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We see near explosive decompression when Vader smashes that window during the duel, I had no trouble grasping in 1980 that there are super strong currents of air in the area of Cloud City they are fighting in. Luke caught a strong updraft as he fell, and maybe even subconsciously used the Force to guide himself into that opening.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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Ever heard of suspension of disbelief?

I can answer almost all questions anyone might have about the Sith from Star Wars Legends, and please do PM me for the bd25 DEED(Despecalised Editions), as I have this version, though I can’t answer technical questions about them. Do not go gentle into that good night, Though wise men at their end know dark is right, They
Do not go gentle into that good night.
“Star Wars is a buffet, enjoy the stuff you want, and leave the rest.” - SilverWook
Feel the love.

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DominicCobb said:

SilverWook said:

DominicCobb said:

Watching ESB on TNT while I’m at the gym, just thinking about how mad fans would get if the movie came out today at the scene where Luke falls off the gantry and gets swooped into the tunnel.

Why?

Because there’s no explanation for it provided in the film. So it’s a “plot hole.”

I think the visuals and sound design do a great job of letting the viewer know what’s happening.

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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Guys, please. I don’t have a problem with it. But lotta fans today are so nit picky and thickheaded that they would call it a plot hole if it was in a Disney movie.

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LordZerome1080 said:

Ever heard of suspension of disbelief?

I don’t necessarily agree with Dom’s premise here about that ESB scene in particular, but this is something I’ve said (or seen said) in reply to many criticisms of TLJ when it comes to nitpicks like the arcs of the First Order’s cannons firing on the Resistance fleet, the bombs dropping onto the First Order Dreadnought, the hyperspace kamikaze attack, and a few others.

a trolling bantha

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ChainsawAsh said:

LordZerome1080 said:

Ever heard of suspension of disbelief?

I don’t necessarily agree with Dom’s premise here about that ESB scene in particular

Things about the sequence that are never explained: what the giant circular chasm is, the purpose of the gantry, why it’s connected to the carbon freezing chamber, what the tunnels that Luke falls through are, why Luke falls through a random tunnel and not just down the shaft, why the tunnel pops him out directly on to a weather vane, etc. These are all things fans today would nitpick and claim are convenient plot holes. Obviously if you use your imagination and think about it there are plenty of possible explanations, but people seem to want stuff like this spelled out to them.

I’d say there are quite a few things that fans complain about in TLJ are far easier to ‘just go with’ than this sequence. I mean just look at the falling bombs complaint, ESB has multiple instances of gravity in space.

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DominicCobb said:
I’d say there are quite a few things that fans complain about in TLJ are far easier to ‘just go with’ than this sequence. I mean just look at the falling bombs complaint, ESB has multiple instances of gravity in space.

So Dom, you’re comparing:

  • The unknown workings of a city’s garbage disposal system (that we get to see for a matter of seconds) where the main central shaft clearly narrows to an unseen point at the bottom (as seen from outside as well when approaching the city), creating a natural sloping surface to capture anything falling straight down and as Wook pointed out, there is clearly negative pressure or directed air currents to direct garbage or whatever they’re disposing off into one of these many groups of collection ducts (so it doesn’t just randomly smash against the inner sides of the shaft) that sucks Luke in, who then slides away some distance before falling through another tube and sliding some more distance and out of the external hatch.

to

  • Something clearly breaking the laws of basic physics (that we’ve known about and quantified for hundreds of years) in the absence of anything extra to give the audience a clue as to why it suddenly appears that there is Earth levels of gravity in space directly below the bomber, aimed at the Dreadnaught?

If they had actually shown that they’re propelled downwards by some type of ejector / launch system or it’s inferred there is some artificial gravity generation system normally used for ship decks but projected beneath the bomber to accelerate the bombs, then it would have been fine. The fact that they’re obviously making a call back to World War 2 bombers with defensive ball turrets who literally dropped bombs out of their underside bomb bay doors doesn’t help the scene as that’s the correlation you automatically make when they have to fly “over” the Dreadnaught to “drop” their bombs. Where if they were actually designed for space combat they literally could have flown straight down towards the top of the Dreadnaught and launched the bombs directly in front of them with their ships own momentum and at far greater speed.

These movies are built on loose sci-fi concepts with some grounding in our current understanding of physics so we have reference points to understand what is happening or extrapolate meaning from, but it’s when events are completely divorced from them with no other reason given that your mind says “hang on a minute…” regardless of the level of disbelief suspension (unless you’re already watching a movie who’s physics have been clearly established as different to ours).

Also there is this (watch to the end, trust me! XD): https://youtu.be/rCgRfqY8dzw

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Exclusive deleted scene from TLJ that didn’t make the cut as it took gravity just too far… clearly breaking the laws of basic physics… as they hadn’t actually shown that their [bombs are] propelled downwards by some type of ejector / launch system or it’s inferred there is some artificial gravity generation system…

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here?
And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

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In before someone says that the asteroid was big enough to have its own meaningful gravity, which we know because they walked around inside the space slug.

(Never mind that the inside of the slug is a vertical shaft and they’re walking on the side of it)

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Let’s not forget that Han and Leia simply walked out into the cave/slug-stomach. No airlock, they just lowered the ramp and simply strolled out, all while wearing no more protection than this.

I’m surprised that people still argue over physics in SW. These films have broken the laws of physics for the sake of entertainment since the first film. Not to mention that Lucas, and especially Kershner, were quite adamant about SW being fantasy and not true sci-fi.

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I was waiting for those scenes to be referrenced but didnt want to bloat my initial response with pre-emptive explanations to replies that may not be made.

Firstly, there is nothing showing that the Tie Bombers arent actually launching those bombs, especially since yes, the massive asteroid would have it’s own gravity but not anywhere near enough to make the bombs fall as fast as they do, so therefore one can assume they are propelled by some off-camera force. Whereas we are specifically shown the bombs “dropping” in TLJ with no indication of a self propulsion or launch system.

Secondly, yes once I was old enough to understand and actually thought about it one day, the cave scene certainly doesn’t stack up so well with their casual walk about and use of flimsy little plastic hospital oxygen masks. I think the fact that the space slug itself lives in the vacuum of space and there are “Mynocks” flying about inside speaks to some internal atmosphere the slug creates somehow which more or less accounts for the makeshift masks (this draws on what I said before about sci-fi loosely grounded in reality) but not for the gravity which is an oversight and inconsistent with the general depiction of space within Star Wars. I don’t think anyone claims the originals to be perfect and this is a minor slight at this stage where on first viewing, you’re more concerned with what the characters are concerned about after C3PO and Leia spot some unknown alien creatures through the windows.

In comparison (and I think the difference at least for me) my suspension of disbelief is already broken and trampled upon by the time the bombs drop in TLJ from the Hux prank call, his de-toothing by Snoke, the general and almost comical (if it wasn’t detracting from the story) incompetence of the First Order and BB8 plugging electrical shorts as if they were water leaks?

The thing about both of the above ESB scenes as well, is that despite their interpretations and any inherent inaccuracies, both are localised to the massive asteroid and so there is still a loose link of the gravity being generated by it that you can attribute it’s source to if you don’t over analyse it. Whereas the TLJ scene is literally in the middle of space away from the planet, so where is this origin of gravity and what determines it’s direction at any given time? These questions are readily apparent on first viewing without having to specifically think about the scenario.

Anyway, my main point I was initially making before we started comparing depictions of gravity in Star Wars is that I dont see how in anyway Luke falling into the garbage disposal tubes on Cloud City constitutes a plot hole, especially in comparison to the TLJ bomb drop which is such a plain and obvious issue to most people when the scene is set in space, no matter how loosely you want to link your own understanding of Star Wars physics to real life.

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timdiggerm said:
(Never mind that the inside of the slug is a vertical shaft and they’re walking on the side of it)

You could say that due to the sheer size of the slug that where they landed inside it essentially oriented them straight down or near enough with the centre of the asteroid and so it would be no different than if they were standing on the surface if you drew a line straight upwards from their head. The asteroid could also have a much denser core, attributing for the level of gravity due to their closer proximity inside the slug.

There’s nothing in the movie to indicate any of this though so its pretty much just a standard old plot hole 😉

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ZkinandBonez said:

I’m surprised that people still argue over physics in SW. These films have broken the laws of physics for the sake of entertainment since the first film. Not to mention that Lucas, and especially Kershner, were quite adamant about SW being fantasy and not true sci-fi.

Yes, same here.

Edit: love that documentary - and well worth a re-watch.
 

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here?
And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

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The bombs fell because the girl fell. Artificial gravity is within the bomber. She fell from the top of the bomber shaft to the bottom of it just like the bombs did. And once the bombs hit the vacuum of space there’s nothing to stop them from continuing their trajectory.

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This is kind of crazy to me. There are so many fair points to complain and discuss about on TLJ and people choose to stress over bombs? It’s not even a good nitpick. It’s so, for the lack of a better word, and apologies in advance if offending anyone, stupid. I don’t know what went through those people’s heads when watching the movie but I’m glad it didn’t happen in mine.

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Has anyone ever tried to edit out the annoying bouncy x-wing flights in the OT. It looks like they’re on one of those toddler rockets that used to be found in front of general merchandise stores??

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dgraham414 said:

The bombs fell because the girl fell. Artificial gravity is within the bomber. She fell from the top of the bomber shaft to the bottom of it just like the bombs did. And once the bombs hit the vacuum of space there’s nothing to stop them from continuing their trajectory.

Except that it’s not nearly enough space for the bombs to reach terminal velocity or even the speed we do seem them dropping at outside of the ship. The top bombs would also have a higher exit speed than the ones below them that stop accelerating the second they enter space, causing the top ones to hit the below ones and possibly triggering a chain reaction explosion (since they’re already armed before launching), destroying the bomber instead of the target…or they push the ones below them sideways in various directions, causing them to go off target and potentially into friendly craft.

So without an actual launch system it’s an incredibly bad and dangerous design to be literally “dropping” bombs in space.

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Pigsinspace said:

Has anyone ever tried to edit out the annoying bouncy x-wing flights in the OT. It looks like they’re on one of those toddler rockets that used to be found in front of general merchandise stores??

If you mean the Xwing wings bouncing when they’re taxiing on the ground, that’s something I would expect Ady to fix if he could.

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Omni said:

This is kind of crazy to me. There are so many fair points to complain and discuss about on TLJ and people choose to stress over bombs? It’s not even a good nitpick. It’s so, for the lack of a better word, and apologies in advance if offending anyone, stupid. I don’t know what went through those people’s heads when watching the movie but I’m glad it didn’t happen in mine.

It is definitely a minor issue by itself but when combined with all the other issues, it becomes a bigger and recurring issue with the film (that the script isn’t really thought through all that well and is obviously the first draft of a single person, as Johnson himself stated…). That and it was brought up by Dom and other people trying to defend it, hence it being discussed.

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IIRC, the bombers were flying pretty low over the dreadnought, (which is why they were so vulnerable to enemy fire) so the gravity or magnetic field of the dreadnought could come into play keeping the bombs going to way they’re supposed to go. The bombs actually resemble magnetic sea mines.


originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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Hey, you’re the one that wanted to invent a plot hole in the OT to complain about TLJ/ST critics and then compared it to the bomb scene in TLJ.

Im not mad and you’re essentially calling me nitpicky and thick headed simply for taking issue with a scene that in its most basic sense doesnt stack up logically, just like the slug cave scene doesn’t. If people want to argue the point then a debate will ensue as it is right now.

Regardless of how either side might interpret the bomb scene after analysis, the basic portrayal just doesn’t work anyway because you instantly refer to your own understanding of gravity and go “how is that working?” and start searching for answers, at which point the movie doesnt offer up anything conclusively satisfying and so it becomes a plot hole for those of us that can’t accept on the movie’s own merits what it is showing us. If it’s enough for you, fine. But for us it’s not, there’s too much wrong with it to ignore through a usually pretty understanding suspension of disbelief.