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The Last Jedi: Rekindled (V3 WORKPRINT AVAILABLE) — Page 36

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 (Edited)

StarkillerAG said:

NFBisms said:

^But, that’s not Luke’s arc in TLJ. That’s the moment it starts, but the overall journey isn’t about Luke overcoming his darkness. In fact, the arc itself is very specifically about why his failures aren’t a regression. I don’t know what to tell you.

I don’t know what to tell you, either. I saw Luke’s failure with Ben as a clear regression. Yoda supports that, saying “young Skywalker, still looking to the horizon.” This implies that Luke hasn’t evolved at all since the beginning of ESB, which seems like the definition of a regression.

When I say “needed to be told this way” I just mean that it’s clearly relevant. A logical next step to take from the OT that is more meaningful than Luke “finding the first Jedi temple” or something. This actually expands upon the themes introduced in those films. TROS is the film that rehashes.

Luke trying to kill Ben isn’t a “logical next step.” Like I said, there are a thousand ways TLJ could have expanded Luke’s character that wouldn’t feel like a regression. He could be tired of the endless cycle of war, and want the conflict to resolve itself. Or he could be scared of Snoke’s power, and worried that he wouldn’t be able to handle the situation. That would be a true evolution of Luke’s character. Instead, Rian chose to repeat a conflict that Luke has already faced.

For starters, Luke is not conflicted at all in this film about what he did to Ben. Hence, not the conflict. Not rehashed. (he even says this to ben: “you here to save my soul?” “nope”)

It’s all about the aftermath of that failure. And it’s about how failure doesn’t define you. How what you’ve done doesn’t dictate what you can do, how you aren’t your past, you’re your future. It stops relegating responsibility for heroism on a character arc or bloodline or the light side or the dark - and on people. Their choices and their actions. Luke Skywalker as the son who loved his father, not a heroic Jedi who defeated Vader and the Emperor.

Luke taking responsibility as who he was, the boy looking out at the horizon, and not the pretty story he became as Luke the Legend - reinforces those ideals. Are there other things they could have done? Of course, but this isn’t bad at all. It’s an idealistic human message that I think we missed out on when Vader died. Redemption is about moving on with every mistake as a part of yourself. Not atoning for or running away from your past. Moving forward. Star Wars isn’t the superhero story TROS seems to think it was; it was always the little guys standing up to the big impossible odds, thrust into a world larger than themselves. Luke’s arc here reinforces that spirit. Making him a superhero wouldn’t not work, but it’s cheaper than understanding the humanity behind his actions.

I guess, if anything TLJ says “regression doesn’t exist” and holding the world to that standard is what leads to disappointment and cynicism. That’s a mature take on heroic idealism that I’m glad Star Wars grappled with at least once before becoming mindless nonsense. That even if you and everything you’re fighting against lets you down or becomes harder to fight, doesn’t mean you should give up. In fact, that’s why you should continue. And you will have to, because there is no happily ever after.

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NFBisms said:

StarkillerAG said:

NFBisms said:

^But, that’s not Luke’s arc in TLJ. That’s the moment it starts, but the overall journey isn’t about Luke overcoming his darkness. In fact, the arc itself is very specifically about why his failures aren’t a regression. I don’t know what to tell you.

I don’t know what to tell you, either. I saw Luke’s failure with Ben as a clear regression. Yoda supports that, saying “young Skywalker, still looking to the horizon.” This implies that Luke hasn’t evolved at all since the beginning of ESB, which seems like the definition of a regression.

When I say “needed to be told this way” I just mean that it’s clearly relevant. A logical next step to take from the OT that is more meaningful than Luke “finding the first Jedi temple” or something. This actually expands upon the themes introduced in those films. TROS is the film that rehashes.

Luke trying to kill Ben isn’t a “logical next step.” Like I said, there are a thousand ways TLJ could have expanded Luke’s character that wouldn’t feel like a regression. He could be tired of the endless cycle of war, and want the conflict to resolve itself. Or he could be scared of Snoke’s power, and worried that he wouldn’t be able to handle the situation. That would be a true evolution of Luke’s character. Instead, Rian chose to repeat a conflict that Luke has already faced.

For starters, Luke is not conflicted at all in this film about what he did to Ben. Hence, not the conflict. Not rehashed. (he even says this to ben: “you here to save my soul?” “nope”)

It’s all about the aftermath of that failure. And it’s about how failure doesn’t define you. How what you’ve done doesn’t dictate what you can do, how you aren’t your past, you’re your future. It stops relegating responsibility for heroism on a character arc or bloodline or the light side or the dark - and on people. Their choices and their actions. Luke Skywalker as the son who loved his father, not a heroic Jedi who defeated Vader and the Emperor.

Luke taking responsibility as who he was, the boy looking out at the horizon, and not the pretty story he became as Luke the Legend - reinforces those ideals. Are there other things they could have done? Of course, but this isn’t bad at all. It’s an idealistic human message that I think we missed out on when Vader died. Redemption is about moving on with every mistake as a part of yourself. Not atoning for or running away from your past. Moving forward. Star Wars isn’t the superhero story TROS seems to think it was; it was always the little guys standing up to the big impossible odds, thrust into a world bigger than themselves. Luke’s arc here reinforces that spirit. Making him a superhero wouldn’t not work, but it’s cheaper than understanding the humanity behind his actions.

I guess, if anything TLJ says “regression doesn’t exist” and holding the world to that standard is what leads to disappointment and cynicism. That’s a mature take on heroic idealism that I’m glad Star Wars grappled with at least once before becoming mindless nonsense. That even if you and everything you’re fighting against lets you down or becomes harder, doesn’t mean you should give up. In fact, that’s why you should continue. And you will have to, because there is no happily ever after.

Word.

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pleasehello said:

NFBisms said:

StarkillerAG said:

NFBisms said:

^But, that’s not Luke’s arc in TLJ. That’s the moment it starts, but the overall journey isn’t about Luke overcoming his darkness. In fact, the arc itself is very specifically about why his failures aren’t a regression. I don’t know what to tell you.

I don’t know what to tell you, either. I saw Luke’s failure with Ben as a clear regression. Yoda supports that, saying “young Skywalker, still looking to the horizon.” This implies that Luke hasn’t evolved at all since the beginning of ESB, which seems like the definition of a regression.

When I say “needed to be told this way” I just mean that it’s clearly relevant. A logical next step to take from the OT that is more meaningful than Luke “finding the first Jedi temple” or something. This actually expands upon the themes introduced in those films. TROS is the film that rehashes.

Luke trying to kill Ben isn’t a “logical next step.” Like I said, there are a thousand ways TLJ could have expanded Luke’s character that wouldn’t feel like a regression. He could be tired of the endless cycle of war, and want the conflict to resolve itself. Or he could be scared of Snoke’s power, and worried that he wouldn’t be able to handle the situation. That would be a true evolution of Luke’s character. Instead, Rian chose to repeat a conflict that Luke has already faced.

For starters, Luke is not conflicted at all in this film about what he did to Ben. Hence, not the conflict. Not rehashed. (he even says this to ben: “you here to save my soul?” “nope”)

It’s all about the aftermath of that failure. And it’s about how failure doesn’t define you. How what you’ve done doesn’t dictate what you can do, how you aren’t your past, you’re your future. It stops relegating responsibility for heroism on a character arc or bloodline or the light side or the dark - and on people. Their choices and their actions. Luke Skywalker as the son who loved his father, not a heroic Jedi who defeated Vader and the Emperor.

Luke taking responsibility as who he was, the boy looking out at the horizon, and not the pretty story he became as Luke the Legend - reinforces those ideals. Are there other things they could have done? Of course, but this isn’t bad at all. It’s an idealistic human message that I think we missed out on when Vader died. Redemption is about moving on with every mistake as a part of yourself. Not atoning for or running away from your past. Moving forward. Star Wars isn’t the superhero story TROS seems to think it was; it was always the little guys standing up to the big impossible odds, thrust into a world bigger than themselves. Luke’s arc here reinforces that spirit. Making him a superhero wouldn’t not work, but it’s cheaper than understanding the humanity behind his actions.

I guess, if anything TLJ says “regression doesn’t exist” and holding the world to that standard is what leads to disappointment and cynicism. That’s a mature take on heroic idealism that I’m glad Star Wars grappled with at least once before becoming mindless nonsense. That even if you and everything you’re fighting against lets you down or becomes harder, doesn’t mean you should give up. In fact, that’s why you should continue. And you will have to, because there is no happily ever after.

Word.

Hear hear. Well said.

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Sooo … leave it as be?

Do NOT self-destruct!

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jarbear said:

Sooo … leave it as be?

I guess, given that people have pretty thorough arguments for why they like it. It’s obvious I’m in the minority, so I say leave it as be.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000 edits), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian.
May the midichlorians be with you.

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 (Edited)

StarkillerAG said:

jarbear said:

Sooo … leave it as be?

I guess, given that people have pretty thorough arguments for why they like it. It’s obvious I’m in the minority, so I say leave it as be.

That’s probably a good idea… especially as:-
 

'A quick reminder that the Star Wars Preservation and Star Wars Fan Edit sections of the site are NOT the places to bash on certain eras or aspects of the films, actors, film-makers or owners.

There are far more relevant threads in the Beyond the Original Trilogy or General Star Wars Discussion sections of the site to talk about this.

Critiquing a scene in the Star Wars Fan Edits section with the aim of improving it, removing it, altering it etc is perfectly fine. Statements such as ‘Disney sucks’ and ‘this film is so shit no Fan Edit can save it’ is not.’

 
And people are getting annoyed that the Fan Edit and Preservation threads are containing Review/Opinion/Discussion posts about the films - and not the Edits / projects themselves.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

I find that answer vague and unconvincing. Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves?
Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

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Indeed. This discussion was probably better for General Star Wars Discussion, although it is somewhat relevant to fanediting.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000 edits), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian.
May the midichlorians be with you.

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 (Edited)

I think that was a good, healthy, debate, and yes: given the passionate arguments for this scene as-is, I think it’s best not to change it (other than adding Hal’s subtle addition of the Palpatine laugh). Not a bad thought, but I don’t think it helps the scene or overall story.

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 (Edited)

I agree with the decision to keep the flashback scene as is. I don’t really have a problem with most of Luke’s character arc in TLJ. Having Luke go into exile was a great choice that really humanized his character. I do have a problem with Luke trying to kill Ben, but it’s not a dealbreaker for me, and I understand the arguments of the people who like it. The other elements I don’t like (the record scratch as Luke tosses the saber, the lack of a scene of Luke mourning Han, Luke drinking the green milk) were fixed in Rekindled, so I’m mostly happy with Luke’s portrayal in this edit.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000 edits), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian.
May the midichlorians be with you.

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Time
 (Edited)

He doesn’t exactly try to kill Ben. Kylo’s version of the flashback with Luke’s crazy face and swing at Ben is implied to be untrue, like Luke’s original telling of the story - both are exaggerating to make Rey more sympathetic to them - but Luke’s second telling seems to be the truth. He pulls his saber out in a moment of shameful fear and weakness (he is, after all, a Jedi, and pulling their saber out is usually a reasonable thing to do instinctively when they sense a threat) and then, while staring at it in shock, is forced to use it to block Ben’s incoming strike. It shows progression from ROTJ, in which Vader’s threat against Leia prompts Luke to angrily fight Vader across the room and chop his hand off. He’s gotten better at controlling that instinct to lash out, and catches himself much sooner, but the tragedy is that it still wasn’t good enough, and he’s forced to live with the shame of knowing that (until he learns to forgive himself in the movie).

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Yeah, like I said, it’s not a dealbreaker, and I understand Rian’s intentions. I personally don’t like it, but I can live with it.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000 edits), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian.
May the midichlorians be with you.

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Time

sade1212 said:

He doesn’t exactly try to kill Ben. Kylo’s version of the flashback with Luke’s crazy face and swing at Ben is implied to be untrue, like Luke’s original telling of the story - both are exaggerating to make Rey more sympathetic to them - but Luke’s second telling seems to be the truth. He pulls his saber out in a moment of shameful fear and weakness (he is, after all, a Jedi, and pulling their saber out is usually a reasonable thing to do instinctively when they sense a threat) and then, while staring at it in shock, is forced to use it to block Ben’s incoming strike. It shows progression from ROTJ, in which Vader’s threat against Leia prompts Luke to angrily fight Vader across the room and chop his hand off. He’s gotten better at controlling that instinct to lash out, and catches himself much sooner, but the tragedy is that it still wasn’t good enough, and he’s forced to live with the shame of knowing that (until he learns to forgive himself in the movie).

Luke already conquered that darkness in Return of the Jedi. He saw his mistake, tossed his lightsaber and said that he’ll never turn to the dark side, knowing that it isn’t the way of the Jedi. Both scenes are the same: Luke is motivated to kill a family member because he fears that something bad is going to happen, but he stops himself from successfully killing said family member.

Luke was also less mature in age and the Force in Return of the Jedi, and he was in his 40s at the time he considered the cold-blooded murder of Ben Solo. Yoda even tells Luke in The Last Jedi that he has still been looking to the horizon, implying even more that Luke never actually matured as a person since The Empire Strikes Back.

He also would not have entered Ben’s room with a lightsaber at all, after growing as a Jedi for almost thirty years. Did he not learn this lesson when he decided to take his weapon with him in the Dagobah cave despite Yoda telling him not to do so? What did throwing away his lightsaber at the end of Return of the Jedi symbolize, other than that Luke has conquered the darkness? He had also learned about visions in The Empire Strikes Back. He should have moved on from that, and the sequel Disney trilogy should not be about Luke repeating the same mistakes.

The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequel and Disney trilogies is that they will always be around. Forever. They will never go away. It can never be undone.

I also prefer to be referred to as TNT, not Freezing.

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That’s kind of the point though. Luke is worried he’ll make the same mistake he made with Vader, so he exiles himself to Ach-To. But Yoda convinces him to learn from his mistakes, that past actions don’t define you. Luke thinks he’s regressing, but he realizes that he isn’t. Han being a smuggler in TFA was a true regression, since it was only done to make Han more recognizable to the audience. Luke’s arc in TLJ seems like a regression, but it actually serves a storytelling purpose.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000 edits), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian.
May the midichlorians be with you.

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Time
 (Edited)

Yeah, the important parts here are after - dealing with it - and from a thematic perspective, justifies that initial story decision.

The fact that you feel disappointed is the point. The idea that he should have been better is the point. If you feel that it’s a regression - good. Because then it goes on to refute the notion that he (or anyone for that matter) is a lesser version of themselves because of failure. “Regression” as a harmful concept. Growth isn’t linear, and evolution isn’t about becoming better, but simply trying every day. You don’t actually conquer darkness once, and thinking you do is hubris. It contextualizes Luke’s “I am a Jedi” moment as less of a Jedi one, but a human one. A son believing in his father.

If we’re talking about messages, this is what makes TLJ a sequel to the OT, and not just part of a soft reboot. Rather than reintroduce the same themes to a new audience in a new coat of paint, it actively builds on the core lessons from those films, adding nuance to their ideals of heroism and redemption. Reinforcing Luke Skywalker as heroic because of who he was, not what he should have/would have/could have been. Of course the OT can stand on its own as good messages without any sequels, but there are sequels now and TLJ does more than make what it can out of it. It doesn’t mimic the OT, it fleshes out what it means to follow their example in a messy real world, but also why it’s important to, even when it seems fruitless.

I know it’s off topic and I’m repeating myself, but I wish some people would at least acknowledge what it’s trying to do. Even if they’re not a fan of it. Honestly just put this post in General Discussion if you have to.

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I also completely agree. It’s fine to not like some aspect of a movie, but you should at least acknowledge what the people who made it were trying to do. Deliberately misinterpreting the themes of the movie (which I have unfortunately done sometimes) only makes you look like an idiot.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000 edits), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian.
May the midichlorians be with you.

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Time
 (Edited)

I understand Rian’s intentions behind many of his decisions; however, a lot of decisions range from being either inherently terrible or even had potential but were poorly-executed, like the heroes being chased down in space by the bad guys. I understand that Luke revealing that he considered killing Ben is supposed to give Rey something that drives her to Kylo, but it wasn’t really the best idea. Honestly, I would have given Rey a different motivation for leaving the island and/or Luke a different reason for his exile (some of which @StarkillerAG suggested, like being scared of Snoke’s power).

The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequel and Disney trilogies is that they will always be around. Forever. They will never go away. It can never be undone.

I also prefer to be referred to as TNT, not Freezing.

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I think we should end this conversation on Poppa’s thread unless we’re arguing for a specific change in his edit.

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RogueLeader said:

I think we should end this conversation on Poppa’s thread unless we’re arguing for a specific change in his edit.

Fine…

The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequel and Disney trilogies is that they will always be around. Forever. They will never go away. It can never be undone.

I also prefer to be referred to as TNT, not Freezing.

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So how are things going with this Poppa? I am very, very interested in seeing this edit becoming live!

Do NOT self-destruct!

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Hey Jarbear! Works been pretty busy lately, but my intent is still to finish in the next few weeks. It takes some time to get the sound mix right, so I can’t just render what I have. My time should start to open up soon though!

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RogueLeader said:

I think we should end this conversation on Poppa’s thread unless we’re arguing for a specific change in his edit.

Agreed. Debates are fun people, and I personally have stated many of the problems I have with this film but this is not the place to have it. PLease be respectful of the fan-edit’s creator.

This is the way.

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 (Edited)

Hey Popasketti, So Iv’e gone through another viewing of this edit and I have thoughts about some elements from the original film that I still feel detract from the viewing experience. You and your edit have given me hope for the potential Star Wars film that can be made. I am just wondering if and when I should bring those up since you are sounding close to releasing this new version? Would you prefer these ideas later, or now? I just want to be respectful of your time and focus.

This is the way.

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 (Edited)

deleted comment

The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequel and Disney trilogies is that they will always be around. Forever. They will never go away. It can never be undone.

I also prefer to be referred to as TNT, not Freezing.