I sometimes have a hard time telling when people are joking online. There should be a font for that.
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I sometimes have a hard time telling when people are joking online. There should be a font for that.
I was thinking that the Last Jedi has the same issue Return of the Jedi has. The parts dealing with the Force and the Skywalkers are amazing, but it does leave the other characters a bit out of the loop. Rian tried to give Finn and Poe more to do than Han and Leia in ROTJ.
Well, Han and Leia in RotJ are crucial to the plot of that movie, very different from Finn and Poe in TLJ. Then again, the movies weren’t trying to do the same thing in terms of characters - but I’m not sure if that works as an excuse for TLJ.
I sometimes have a hard time telling when people are joking online. There should be a font for that.
I was thinking that the Last Jedi has the same issue Return of the Jedi has. The parts dealing with the Force and the Skywalkers are amazing, but it does leave the other characters a bit out of the loop. Rian tried to give Finn and Poe more to do than Han and Leia in ROTJ.
Well, Han and Leia in RotJ are crucial to the plot of that movie, very different from Finn and Poe in TLJ. Then again, the movies weren’t trying to do the same thing in terms of characters - but I’m not sure if that works as an excuse for TLJ.
You’re right, excuse isn’t the right word, considering this is one of the things that makes TLJ ten times better than ROTJ.
How do characters having almost no impact on the plot of the movie improve the movie? I mean, why?
How do characters having almost no impact on the plot of the movie improve the movie? I mean, why?
There is more to a movie than plot. Movies are not created for the sole sake of a Wikipedia plot summary.
This is to say nothing about the fact that they do impact the plot.
How do characters having almost no impact on the plot of the movie improve the movie? I mean, why?
There is more to a movie than plot. Movies are not created for the sole sake of a Wikipedia plot summary.
I agree
This is to say nothing about the fact that they do impact the plot.
I agree if you’re talking about Poe, but not about Finn. Still, both of them got a lot of good character development which is a lot more important.
How do characters having almost no impact on the plot of the movie improve the movie? I mean, why?
There is more to a movie than plot. Movies are not created for the sole sake of a Wikipedia plot summary.
This is to say nothing about the fact that they do impact the plot.
Both of these.
I still don’t know why that makes TLJ better than RotJ in any way. Luke and Vader were the only characters that still had something worthwhile to do character wise because Han and Leia’s character arcs were done and they decided to take the safety route with them while going very risky with Vader and the Emperor. Apparently you think that that makes TLJ superior to RotJ. Ok, good. Am I correct? Is there more to it?
I still don’t know why that makes TLJ better than RotJ in any way. Luke and Vader were the only characters that still had something worthwhile to do character wise because Han and Leia’s character arcs were done and they decided to take the safety route with them while going very risky with Vader and the Emperor. Apparently you think that that makes TLJ superior to RotJ. Ok, good. Am I correct? Is there more to it?
The problem was that they apparently decided Han an Leia’s stories were done already, which is silly, they easily could’ve given them more interesting things to do. I also fail to see what is risky about the Vader/Emperor plot, though I also don’t exactly understand using the word risky in relation to quality.
Anyway, yes, across the board characterization in TLJ is better than ROTJ, which in turn makes the film itself better.
I still don’t know why that makes TLJ better than RotJ in any way. Luke and Vader were the only characters that still had something worthwhile to do character wise because Han and Leia’s character arcs were done and they decided to take the safety route with them while going very risky with Vader and the Emperor. Apparently you think that that makes TLJ superior to RotJ. Ok, good. Am I correct? Is there more to it?
The problem was that they apparently decided Han an Leia’s stories were done already, which is silly, they easily could’ve given them more interesting things to do. I also fail to see what is risky about the Vader/Emperor plot, though I also don’t exactly understand using the word risky in relation to quality.
I think turning the world’s greatest villain at the time into a sympathetic character that obeys the new world’s greatest villain but ends up betraying him anyway is pretty risky - and worked pretty well, making that section of RotJ wonderful.
No relation to quality either, just showing that because they decided to go risky with the Skywalker plot, they ended up going safe with the other characters - which inevitably made their stories somewhat boring.
Anyway, yes, across the board characterization in TLJ is better than ROTJ, which in turn makes the film itself better.
Fair enough.
This is again under the assumption that lightspeed ramming turns things to swiss cheese or whatever. But the way it’s depicted in the film it doesn’t seem like the lightspeed is necessarily the most important element to what would be massive destruction from the collision anyway. Why didn’t the Naboo fighters lightspeed kamikaze? Well why didn’t they just plain old kamikaze? Surely that’d cause some serious damage too.
Because lightspeed is depicted as massively more effective in TLJ than a normal ramming maneuver? Don’t forget that the debris from the Supremacy impact sliced up a bunch of Destroyers as well, something that is highly unlikely with a slower impact.
Based on the previous movies, an impact at sublight speeds might not do enough damage to destroy a single ship, let alone a dozen capital ships. In Rogue One, a transport impacts a Star Destroyer causing only minimal damage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4GppY9Vh0k
…but in ESB, a somewhat larger asteroid traveling at a similar speed is able to take out a Star Destroyer’s bridge:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gh7AcuxfxI
A ship, even one as large as the Raddus, probably wouldn’t be enough to bisect the Supremacy without going at relativistic speeds. This goes against canon, where the ‘acceleration’ is thought to be an illusion.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Pseudomotion/Legends
Is it possible that a ship entering Hyperspace first accelerates to ‘88MPH’ or something? Sure, anything’s possible in this made-up universe. But this just complicates a straightforward conceit of Space Opera storytelling by its military implications, and I think it’s frankly irresponsible to make this change to the rules of the universe for one (albeit cool) moment.
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Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)
This is again under the assumption that lightspeed ramming turns things to swiss cheese or whatever. But the way it’s depicted in the film it doesn’t seem like the lightspeed is necessarily the most important element to what would be massive destruction from the collision anyway. Why didn’t the Naboo fighters lightspeed kamikaze? Well why didn’t they just plain old kamikaze? Surely that’d cause some serious damage too.
Because lightspeed is depicted as massively more effective in TLJ than a normal ramming maneuver? Don’t forget that the debris from the Supremacy impact sliced up a bunch of Destroyers as well, something that is highly unlikely with a slower impact.
Based on the previous movies, an impact at sublight speeds might not do enough damage to destroy a single ship, let alone a dozen capital ships. In Rogue One, a transport impacts a Star Destroyer causing only minimal damage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4GppY9Vh0k
…but in ESB, a somewhat larger asteroid traveling at a similar speed is able to take out a Star Destroyer’s bridge:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gh7AcuxfxIA ship, even one as large as the Raddus, probably wouldn’t be enough to bisect the Supremacy without going at relativistic speeds. This goes against canon, where the ‘acceleration’ is thought to be an illusion.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Pseudomotion/LegendsIs it possible that a ship entering Hyperspace first accelerates to ‘88MPH’ or something? Sure, anything’s possible in this made-up universe. But this just complicates a straightforward conceit of Space Opera storytelling by its military implications, and I think it’s frankly irresponsible to make this change to the rules of the universe for one (albeit cool) moment.
Hear, hear! Could not have stated it better myself.
I feel like the debris it would cause would be a reason not to use this attack often.
When it comes to damage done, we see in Rogue One a star destroyer, moving slowly, cut another in half. I never denied that lightspeed improved the destructive power, I just said I didn’t think it was at the “omg five million nukes worst OP weapon ever Star Wars ruined” level that people said. When you consider the length of the Raddus is about a fifth of the length of the Supremacy (little bit of an underestimate), one could then very roughly assume I suppose that lightspeed increases destructive power five fold, which I don’t think is enough to utilize it to the extent you think it should be. I will say in fairness when I saw the movie in theaters I didn’t stop to measure the level of ship to ship destruction in the other movies before I decided if I enjoyed the moment, weird I know. Now I’ve gone and done math (however basic) to Star Wars, which has pretty much assured that I hate that moment now too, thanks very much.
As for that page, call me crazy but it looks like there’s a “legends” banner there. Oh, and look at the “appearances,” all books by Timothy Zahn, a man who tried to turn Star Wars into boring military sci-fi. This is literally why they rebooted the canon, so they didn’t have to follow shit like this anymore.
Regarding the hyperspace kamikaze.
I don’t mind it, I think it’s great.
Realistically I don’t think a ship could accelerate to light speed that quickly without killing everyone on board, so we’ll have to assume that the accelerating to “88 mph” works by somehow altering the physics involved.
If a projectile the size of a football would have the power of several nukes, wouldn’t the power still only be directed mostly forwards (and not in all directions like a bomb)? I assume a small projectile would only punch a hole straight through like a bullet rather than “nuking” the target. That wouldn’t necessarily work on something like the Death Star.
Sir Ridley said:
3. If a projectile the size of a football would have the power of several nukes, wouldn’t the power still only be directed mostly forwards (and not in all directions like a bomb)? I assume a small projectile would only punch a hole straight through like a bullet rather than “nuking” the target. That wouldn’t necessarily work on something like the Death Star.
Only if the projectile would somehow magically be able to remain intact. However, given the amount of energy involved the projectile would disintegrate as would the Death Star at the point of impact, resulting in flying debris with a similar amount of energy as the projectile, which would wreak havoc on the station and anything in the vicinity.
Sir Ridley said:
3. If a projectile the size of a football would have the power of several nukes, wouldn’t the power still only be directed mostly forwards (and not in all directions like a bomb)? I assume a small projectile would only punch a hole straight through like a bullet rather than “nuking” the target. That wouldn’t necessarily work on something like the Death Star.Only if the projectile would somehow magically be able to remain intact. However, given the amount of energy involved the projectile would disintegrate as would the Death Star at the point of impact, resulting in flying debris with a similar amount of energy as the projectile, which would wreak havoc on the station and anything in the vicinity.
Right, didn’t think of that! I assume it would look similar to how it does in the movie though, with the impact spreading mostly forwards but branching out to the sides as well.
‘Physicists Say the Epic Hyperdrive Scene in ‘The Last Jedi’ Is Plausible’…
(subtitled ‘Vice Admiral Holdo’s gambit is based in real physics’)
^ with some views from a physics professor who also authored ‘The Physics of Star Wars’ book, and also views of a physics department head at a US university.
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I still don’t know why that makes TLJ better than RotJ in any way. Luke and Vader were the only characters that still had something worthwhile to do character wise because Han and Leia’s character arcs were done and they decided to take the safety route with them while going very risky with Vader and the Emperor. Apparently you think that that makes TLJ superior to RotJ. Ok, good. Am I correct? Is there more to it?
The problem was that they apparently decided Han an Leia’s stories were done already, which is silly, they easily could’ve given them more interesting things to do. I also fail to see what is risky about the Vader/Emperor plot, though I also don’t exactly understand using the word risky in relation to quality.
Anyway, yes, across the board characterization in TLJ is better than ROTJ, which in turn makes the film itself better.
Though I think TLJ has similar problems of having subplots that feel tacked on, just like ROTJ, I still like it much more than ROTJ which has aged so poorly. Even some of the Luke-Vader stuff doesn’t hold up whereas the good stuff of the Last Jedi was just so good for me and also took more risks than ROTJ.
I rewatchd TLJ last night at the $2 theater. I think it held up better than I expected. My only real complain was that it’s a bit on the long side due to all the subplots, but it never drags enough that that’s a dealbreaker.
I definitely thought it was worthwhile to watch again on the big screen, but I don’t think I’ll revisit this the way I do the OT. The good stuff in this movie, however, far exceeded the parts I liked in TFA. I’m excited for Episode IX.
A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em
My problem now is still the same one I had when I left the theatre on first viewing. I turned to my wife and said “hang on, that entire casino plot was not only a waste of time, it actually got bunches of people killed! Why the hell didn’t purple-hair just tell Poe the plan?”. I assumed I’d missed a vital piece of information.
I can handle lightspeed weaponising, Luke being Jake, Force-ghosts with new Thor powers, and the stupid idea of children getting Jedi powers like mutants from an X-Men movie - but the Holdo thing is a sticking point for me. I’ve watched Youtube videos, read articles, done everything in my power to make sense of this aspect of the movie, but I just can’t.
Which is a shame because the movie looks great and I’m keen for the Blu Ray on that basis alone.
Not sure where you’re getting that idea about Broom Boy™. I just presumed he has latent Force abilities that are just beginning to wake up and nobody around him has picked up on it yet. Just like that kid from Tatooine who was pretty good at Pod Racing. 😉
It’s not like anybody is actively looking for Force sensitive kids at this point, at least not yet.
Where were you in '77?
Not sure where you’re getting that idea about Broom Boy™. I just presumed he has latent Force abilities that are just beginning to wake up and nobody around him has picked up on it yet. Just like that kid from Tatooine who was pretty good at Pod Racing. 😉
It’s not like anybody is actively looking for Force sensitive kids at this point, at least not yet.
I’m merely projecting my own biases. I like the original idea of the Force circa '77-'80 ie an energy field that can be tapped into by anyone with the discipline/openness to do so (I believe GL called it ‘space yoga’). Yes, there was the implication that Luke had somewhat inherited his Dad’s talent, but it was still ambiguous enough to a) not be a given and b) be a potential talent that still required serious training to bloom beyond good piloting instincts.
Anakin was of course an outgrowth of the genetic certainty presented in ROTJ via the shoehorned Leia revelation. The original ‘other’ was to be someone who had trained on the other side of the galaxy - ‘trained’ being the operative word. Leia’s sudden identity switch necessitated the idea of Skywalkers being a threat to the Emperor by birthright alone. So at this point Force abilities became more strictly genetic, and this led us down Midichlorian avenue.
Anakin was conceived by Midichlorians to fulfil a Jedi prophecy - all of which I find ridiculous, but he was still only displaying rudimentary prescience (in the form of dreams) and excellent reflexes. I just find levitating objects to be a little far-fetched, especially given Luke’s slow climb to levitation proficiency. Since TFA and TLJ seemed to be ducking the ‘chosen one’/Midichlorian thing and going back to the energy field, I thought they’d also preserve the discipline/space yoga side of the Force as well. Rey’s heaving boulders about the place and Broom Boy effortlessly summoning a broom conflict with the ideas presented in the OT in my opinion. I don’t think these powers should be so superhero-ish, given what we’ve seen before. They should be earned, not just appear like Marvel mutant abilities.
Not sure where you’re getting that idea about Broom Boy™. I just presumed he has latent Force abilities that are just beginning to wake up and nobody around him has picked up on it yet. Just like that kid from Tatooine who was pretty good at Pod Racing. 😉
It’s not like anybody is actively looking for Force sensitive kids at this point, at least not yet.I’m merely projecting my own biases. I like the original idea of the Force circa '77-'80 ie an energy field that can be tapped into by anyone with the discipline/openness to do so (I believe GL called it ‘space yoga’). Yes, there was the implication that Luke had somewhat inherited his Dad’s talent, but it was still ambiguous enough to a) not be a given and b) be a potential talent that still required serious training to bloom beyond good piloting instincts.
Anakin was of course an outgrowth of the genetic certainty presented in ROTJ via the shoehorned Leia revelation. The original ‘other’ was to be someone who had trained on the other side of the galaxy - ‘trained’ being the operative word. Leia’s sudden identity switch necessitated the idea of Skywalkers being a threat to the Emperor by birthright alone. So at this point Force abilities became more strictly genetic, and this led us down Midichlorian avenue.
Anakin was conceived by Midichlorians to fulfil a Jedi prophecy - all of which I find ridiculous, but he was still only displaying rudimentary prescience (in the form of dreams) and excellent reflexes. I just find levitating objects to be a little far-fetched, especially given Luke’s slow climb to levitation proficiency. Since TFA and TLJ seemed to be ducking the ‘chosen one’/Midichlorian thing and going back to the energy field, I thought they’d also preserve the discipline/space yoga side of the Force as well. Rey’s heaving boulders about the place and Broom Boy effortlessly summoning a broom conflict with the ideas presented in the OT in my opinion. I don’t think these powers should be so superhero-ish, given what we’ve seen before. They should be earned, not just appear like Marvel mutant abilities.
Yes, that is my view as well. I would like to add, that the OT and later the PT also made clear, that in developing these powers you inevitably will be tempted by the dark side, to choose the quick and easy path. That important Star Wars theme appears to have been jettisoned as well. There’s this weird scene, where Rey according to Luke didn’t even attempt to resist the dark side, but that element is never revisited, and appears to have no bearing on the rest of the plot. All the while Kylo is simply presented as a bad egg, who just needed a little prodding from his misguided master to become the monster he was meant to be, and Rey just instantly has these powers whenever she needs them, and all the while remains as good natured as ever.
NeverarGreat said:
The problem with that scene from a scientific perspective is that it’s strongly implied that a Hyperdrive is literally able to accelerate objects up to and past the speed of light, instead of opening a tunnel into another dimension.
DrDre said:
No, there’s normal speed driven by normal engines with normal physical limits, and there’s lightspeed for which you need a hyperdrive. The former is normal motion in real space, while lightspeed is achieved in another dimension called hyperspace.
I’ve only read the last few pages of the thread, so my apologies if this has been mentioned already, but on the topic of whether hyperspace involves simply travelling really quickly or entering another dimension, ANH would seem to establish that it’s the former, since one is still at risk of interacting with physical objects in the universe. As Han says, “Traveling through hyperspace ain’t like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that’d end your trip real quick, wouldn’t it?”
“It’s a lot of fun… it’s a lot of fun to watch Star Wars.” – Bill Moyers
Not sure where you’re getting that idea about Broom Boy™. I just presumed he has latent Force abilities that are just beginning to wake up and nobody around him has picked up on it yet. Just like that kid from Tatooine who was pretty good at Pod Racing. 😉
It’s not like anybody is actively looking for Force sensitive kids at this point, at least not yet.I’m merely projecting my own biases. I like the original idea of the Force circa '77-'80 ie an energy field that can be tapped into by anyone with the discipline/openness to do so (I believe GL called it ‘space yoga’). Yes, there was the implication that Luke had somewhat inherited his Dad’s talent, but it was still ambiguous enough to a) not be a given and b) be a potential talent that still required serious training to bloom beyond good piloting instincts.
Anakin was of course an outgrowth of the genetic certainty presented in ROTJ via the shoehorned Leia revelation. The original ‘other’ was to be someone who had trained on the other side of the galaxy - ‘trained’ being the operative word. Leia’s sudden identity switch necessitated the idea of Skywalkers being a threat to the Emperor by birthright alone. So at this point Force abilities became more strictly genetic, and this led us down Midichlorian avenue.
Anakin was conceived by Midichlorians to fulfil a Jedi prophecy - all of which I find ridiculous, but he was still only displaying rudimentary prescience (in the form of dreams) and excellent reflexes. I just find levitating objects to be a little far-fetched, especially given Luke’s slow climb to levitation proficiency. Since TFA and TLJ seemed to be ducking the ‘chosen one’/Midichlorian thing and going back to the energy field, I thought they’d also preserve the discipline/space yoga side of the Force as well. Rey’s heaving boulders about the place and Broom Boy effortlessly summoning a broom conflict with the ideas presented in the OT in my opinion. I don’t think these powers should be so superhero-ish, given what we’ve seen before. They should be earned, not just appear like Marvel mutant abilities.
Yes, that is my view as well. I would like to add, that the OT and later the PT also made clear, that in developing these powers you inevitably will be tempted by the dark side, to choose the quick and easy path. That important Star Wars theme appears to have been jettisoned as well. There’s this weird scene, where Rey according to Luke didn’t even attempt to resist the dark side, but that element is never revisited, and appears to have no bearing on the rest of the plot. All the while Kylo is simply presented as a bad egg, who just needed a little prodding from his misguided master to become the monster he was meant to be, and Rey just instantly has these powers whenever she needs them, and all the while remains as good natured as ever.
I don’t know if i would say jettisoned, but i would agree they are doing something a bit different. doesn’t Rey seem to indicate a much more grey user of the force? It seems that it is the Jedi teaching that was the light vs dark, and Rey certainly hasn’t been steeped in that (yet). The entire interaction with her and Luke seems to be all about this. she does have the books however, and who knows what they will do in the next movie. Maybe she will embrace more of the Jedi way.
But i share your frustration that they don’t get very in depth on some of the topics brought up (grey; dark side vs light). Sadly, you can only cover so much in a movie, and it would be a bit strange if they got philosophical at the expense of action. But knowing star wars and all its other media presence (tv shows, books), not to mention all these new movie plans, hopefully some of these new themes will continue to be explored, as i am sure they will be.