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Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 157

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Time
 (Edited)

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Hard to argue that fan regard for TLJ won’t improve over time. To what extent is obviously up for debate. But a lot* of the complaints from fans have to do with expectations not matched or disliking how preexisting characters were used. As the years go on, and the younger fanbase (who don’t have the baggage of years of expectations) grows up and becomes a larger percentage of the whole, TLJ will certainly improve in standing. The same exact thing happened with the prequels (even as the critical appraisal seemed to go in the opposite direction).

*If you’re thinking of responding to this saying “but not all of the complaints,” how about just don’t respond instead. That’s not what I’m talking about and I’m very tired of that kind of bullshit at this point.

It’s actually pretty easy to argue, that fan regard won’t necessarily improve over time. You more or less regard the very negative opinions as outliers that will in future get less weight in the overall assessment of TLJ, but you totally disregard the positive outliers with extreme praise, that also stem from mostly older fans, who were pleased the ST distanced itself from the PT in both visuals and style.

I’m not talking about outliers. What are the extremes have nothing to do with my point. Obviously a significant portion of the fanbase disliked the film (and a significant portion liked it). What’s the majority and what’s the minority doesn’t matter. I just think it’s hard to argue that, in the future, there won’t undoubtedly be more and more fans who fall into the “like” column, as many of the reasons for the dislike fade away.

Additionally you disregard the effect episode IX will have on the overall assessment of the trilogy including TLJ. ROTS is largely lumped in with the other prequels, despite the fact that it was actually positively recieved, because the entire trilogy was mostly seen as a disappointment. It is quite possible episode IX will please neither fans or critics of TLJ, and so the entire trilogy may end up being regarded as pretty mediocre, and a missed opportunity. Anything is possible at this point. TLJ may improve in standing, or it may not.

You’re absolutely right that IX will affect the overall assessment of the trilogy. But again, with the prequels, you ignore my point, which is that there seems to be far more PT fans now than before, whether or not some other fans regard the whole trilogy as a disappointment or not.

There will also be far more films than ever before, so being a Star Wars fan won’t be linked to any specific set of films as it did before. The OT were the only films available for two decades, the PT era lasted for almost 15 years. The ST era will likely not last even half that long. So, unlike the OT and PT the ST will probably not amass a larger following through constant exposure to a single era over a prolonged period of time, as it will be eclipsed by the new kids on the block. As such I don’t see its reputation changing very much aside from dulling both the hatred and the praise as time progresses. The whole ST is just too similar to the OT to stand out from the immense crowd of films and series that will be the future of the franchise.

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a few issues I do have with TLJ are the question of …whatever happened to Coruscant ? It was the capitol of the Republic in the prequels , the Empire in the OT and the logical conclusion would be for the New Republic to take it back . How did they go from there to the Hosnian system .and the planets of the republic were all in that system , which was wiped out by Starkiller base in TFA , which a few seem to be forgetting . In my OPINION, the blame falls on JJ Abrams for destroying the republic and not Rian Johnson .Also , at one point ,Admiral Holdo says , "God speed rebels ". This seemed a little too much of an Earth reference to me .

https://screamsinthevoid.deviantart.com/

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yotsuya said:

rodneyfaile said:

Luke Skywalker has vanished.
In his absence, the sinister
FIRST ORDER has risen from
the ashes of the Empire
and will not rest until
Skywalker, the last Jedi,
has been destroyed.

With the support of the
REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa
leads a brave RESISTANCE.
She is desperate to find her
brother Luke and gain his
help in restoring peace
and justice to the galaxy.

Leia has sent her most daring
pilot on a secret mission
to Jakku, where an old ally
has discovered a clue to
Luke’s whereabouts…

compared to…

It is a period of civil war.
Rebel spaceships, striking
from a hidden base, have won
their first victory against
the evil Galactic Empire.

During the battle, Rebel
spies managed to steal secret
plans to the Empire’s
ultimate weapon, the DEATH
STAR, an armored space
station with enough power to
destroy an entire planet.

Pursued by the Empire’s
sinister agents, Princess
Leia races home aboard her
starship, custodian of the
stolen plans that can save
her people and restore
freedom to the galaxy…

See how the stage is set by the original crawl. The players are easy to understand and clearly delineated. In TFA the setup is more complex, but rather than go into any part except the First Order, it is all about Luke. TLJ does a better job…

The FIRST ORDER reigns.
Having decimated the peaceful
Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke
now deploys the merciless
legions to seize military
control of the galaxy.

Only General Leia Organa’s
band of RESISTANCE fighters
stand against the rising
tyranny, certain that Jedi
Master Luke Skywalker will
return and restore a spark of
hope to the fight.

But the Resistance has been
exposed. As the First Order
speeds toward the rebel base,
the brave heroes mount a
desperate escape…

The original crawl is a masterclass in efficient exposition. In three paragraphs we know everything we need to know about the conflict. Of course, this wouldn’t be possible without the galactic situation being simple to begin with. The Empire, which controls the galaxy, has a weapon with clearly defined power. The Rebellion, clearly not a major threat due to their lack of victories thus far, has nevertheless gained an opportunity to destroy this weapon. Then establish the princess and the crawl is perfect.

In short:
The Empire
The Death Star
The Death Star as a formidable weapon
The Rebellion
The Princess
The attack
The plans
The Empire’s sinister agents

TFA on the other hand is a complicated situation. For my fanedit I’ve tried to rewrite the crawl over a hundred times, and I’ve come to the conclusion that minus a missing scene that further explains the galaxy, three paragraphs just can’t cut it.

TFA tries to establish:

Luke and his disappearance
The First Order
The origin of the First Order from the Empire
The First Order’s need to kill Luke
The Republic
The Resistance
Leia
The best pilot
Luke as the last Jedi
Jedi as protectors of the galaxy
Leia as Luke’s sister
Jakku
Leia’s old ally

And this is really not even enough exposition, because you still need:

How the First Order arose
Why Luke is gone
Why Luke is important
The Starkiller
How the Starkiller is possible
The relative power of the Republic vs the Resistance and the First Order
…among other things.

DuracellEnergizer: “^He’s embraced the absurd. Don’t expect to gain any conventional understanding from his posts.”
A New Hope Technicolor Recreation (Released!)
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Author
Time

oojason said:

Shopping Maul said:

It’s the fans that don’t like it…

Seems a fair few fans do like it (TLJ).
 

Shopping Maul said:

oojason said:

Shopping Maul said:

rodneyfaile said:

CRITICAL OPINION: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK‘S ORIGINAL REVIEWS
JANUARY 23, 2014

https://www.starwars.com/news/critical-opinion-the-empire-strikes-back-original-reviews

There’s some really interesting reading here - but I don’t see how this remotely resembles the reaction to TLJ. The critics cited in this article are basically writing off TESB - and Star Wars as an entity - as childish nonsense. That’s just typical movie-critic snobbery. The fans for the most part wouldn’t have given a damn, and the kids buying action figures in droves would’ve been equally oblivious.

On the other hand the critics loved TLJ. It’s the fans that don’t like it, and this is for reasons of tone and canon and story and so forth. It’s not the same thing at all IMO.

yotsuya said:

Wait for IX to come out. Absorb it. Watch the ST in its complete form and see how TLJ fits and then give us a more reasoned opinion. I bet some will change their mind as many of us did about TESB in the years since it came out.

yotsuya seemed to be saying that some people’s opinions may change or evolve on TLJ when the Sequel Trilogy is complete - and viewed in a different context to what it is now - in a Trilogy only two-thirds finished.

He didn’t seem to be comparing the levels of criticism to both Empire and TLJ - just that some people’s opinions may have changed after Jedi was released and time was taken to reevaluate the Original Trilogy as a whole.

Seems reasonable, that.

rodneyfaile just helpfully posted some additional reviews on Empire he found - doesn’t seem either he or yotsuya were comparing the differences between fan reviews and those of ‘professional’ film critics either.
 

I just think it’s a bit of a ‘Flying Spaghetti Monster’ argument. I’ve seen bad reviews of Citizen Kane. It doesn’t mean I’m going to extrapolate that Transformers Revenge of the Fallen might someday be lauded as genius because Citizen Kane also got some bad reviews. The timing, tone, circumstances etc surrounding TESB are nothing like what has happened with TLJ. I think the comparison is flawed.

I don’t actually care (just like I didn’t care about critics or bad press when I was a kid) but I’d prefer we discussed the movies on their own merits without this ‘TESB was also controversial’ meme. There was no ‘space Leia’ moment in TESB. No-one felt that Luke’s character arc had been betrayed or that general Rieeken was withholding information for no good reason or that Bespin was a waste of time. Let’s stay on point.

Flying Spaghetti Monster argument? Citizen Kane? Extrapolating Revenge Of The Fallen? What…?

In the context of me saying ‘yotsuya seemed to be saying that some people’s opinions may change or evolve on TLJ when the Sequel Trilogy is complete - and viewed in a different context to what it is now - in a Trilogy only two-thirds finished’ the point has been missed by quite some distance. No worries, I’ll leave it there.

Sorry, I’m probably not making my point very well. The ‘flying spaghetti monster’ is a response to shifting the burden of proof in matters of religious faith/discussion. A person of Faith will say “you can’t prove God doesn’t exist” and a skeptic will respond with “well, by that same measure you can’t prove the flying spaghetti monster doesn’t exist”. It’s a way of exposing the fallacy of this type of argument.

Not that this Star Wars stuff is in the same ballpark, but this TESB thing is an annoying meme that has gained lots of internet traction as some kind of clever slam-dunk for the merits of TLJ. Yes, people’s opinions may change when TLJ is viewed in the context of a completed trilogy, but so what? We can’t possibly know what people will think of TLJ years from now. TESB existed in an entirely different context. If the criticisms were actually similar (plotholes, Luke’s character ruined, pointless side-plots, overuse of humour, canon violations, perceived virtue-signalling etc etc) then we could extrapolate something at least slightly meaningful. But in this instance it’s about as ridiculous as my comparing Citizen Kane to Transformers.

I understand what’s being said here (and I have zero desire to insult anyone on these boards - let me be absolutely clear about that!). One of my favourite films, Conan 1982, was given some lousy feedback in its day and has since garnered an impressive reputation as a giant in the genre. So yes, it can and does happen. But we won’t know until it happens (it may be go the opposite way for all we know) and I just don’t think the comparison is a particularly valid one.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Shopping Maul said:

oojason said:

Shopping Maul said:

It’s the fans that don’t like it…

Seems a fair few fans do like it (TLJ).
 

Shopping Maul said:

oojason said:

Shopping Maul said:

rodneyfaile said:

CRITICAL OPINION: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK‘S ORIGINAL REVIEWS
JANUARY 23, 2014

https://www.starwars.com/news/critical-opinion-the-empire-strikes-back-original-reviews

There’s some really interesting reading here - but I don’t see how this remotely resembles the reaction to TLJ. The critics cited in this article are basically writing off TESB - and Star Wars as an entity - as childish nonsense. That’s just typical movie-critic snobbery. The fans for the most part wouldn’t have given a damn, and the kids buying action figures in droves would’ve been equally oblivious.

On the other hand the critics loved TLJ. It’s the fans that don’t like it, and this is for reasons of tone and canon and story and so forth. It’s not the same thing at all IMO.

yotsuya said:

Wait for IX to come out. Absorb it. Watch the ST in its complete form and see how TLJ fits and then give us a more reasoned opinion. I bet some will change their mind as many of us did about TESB in the years since it came out.

yotsuya seemed to be saying that some people’s opinions may change or evolve on TLJ when the Sequel Trilogy is complete - and viewed in a different context to what it is now - in a Trilogy only two-thirds finished.

He didn’t seem to be comparing the levels of criticism to both Empire and TLJ - just that some people’s opinions may have changed after Jedi was released and time was taken to reevaluate the Original Trilogy as a whole.

Seems reasonable, that.

rodneyfaile just helpfully posted some additional reviews on Empire he found - doesn’t seem either he or yotsuya were comparing the differences between fan reviews and those of ‘professional’ film critics either.
 

I just think it’s a bit of a ‘Flying Spaghetti Monster’ argument. I’ve seen bad reviews of Citizen Kane. It doesn’t mean I’m going to extrapolate that Transformers Revenge of the Fallen might someday be lauded as genius because Citizen Kane also got some bad reviews. The timing, tone, circumstances etc surrounding TESB are nothing like what has happened with TLJ. I think the comparison is flawed.

I don’t actually care (just like I didn’t care about critics or bad press when I was a kid) but I’d prefer we discussed the movies on their own merits without this ‘TESB was also controversial’ meme. There was no ‘space Leia’ moment in TESB. No-one felt that Luke’s character arc had been betrayed or that general Rieeken was withholding information for no good reason or that Bespin was a waste of time. Let’s stay on point.

Flying Spaghetti Monster argument? Citizen Kane? Extrapolating Revenge Of The Fallen? What…?

In the context of me saying ‘yotsuya seemed to be saying that some people’s opinions may change or evolve on TLJ when the Sequel Trilogy is complete - and viewed in a different context to what it is now - in a Trilogy only two-thirds finished’ the point has been missed by quite some distance. No worries, I’ll leave it there.

Sorry, I’m probably not making my point very well. The ‘flying spaghetti monster’ is a response to shifting the burden of proof in matters of religious faith/discussion. A person of Faith will say “you can’t prove God doesn’t exist” and a skeptic will respond with “well, by that same measure you can’t prove the flying spaghetti monster doesn’t exist”. It’s a way of exposing the fallacy of this type of argument.

Not that this Star Wars stuff is in the same ballpark, but this TESB thing is an annoying meme that has gained lots of internet traction as some kind of clever slam-dunk for the merits of TLJ. Yes, people’s opinions may change when TLJ is viewed in the context of a completed trilogy, but so what? We can’t possibly know what people will think of TLJ years from now. TESB existed in an entirely different context. If the criticisms were actually similar (plotholes, Luke’s character ruined, pointless side-plots, overuse of humour, canon violations, perceived virtue-signalling etc etc) then we could extrapolate something at least slightly meaningful. But in this instance it’s about as ridiculous as my comparing Citizen Kane to Transformers.

I understand what’s being said here (and I have zero desire to insult anyone on these boards - let me be absolutely clear about that!). One of my favourite films, Conan 1982, was given some lousy feedback in its day and has since garnered an impressive reputation as a giant in the genre. So yes, it can and does happen. But we won’t know until it happens (it may be go the opposite way for all we know) and I just don’t think the comparison is a particularly valid one.

I think the fallacy is in the idea, that much of the criticism against the ST is based on nostalgia from the past and expectations that stem from previous installments. However, unlike the previous two trilogies, which can both be considered reasonable starting points for watching the Skywalker saga, episode IV being the one that started it all, and episode I being the actual beginning, the ST will never really stand on its own. As such those that watch TLJ in the more distant future will still watch it with expectations based on the previous episodes. In this context it’s important to point out that a lot of criticism against TLJ also came from those who felt it didn’t provide satisfactory answers to the mystery boxes introduced by TFA, so criticism against TLJ isn’t linked specifically to OT nostalgia. As such, those that like the Skywalker saga enough to eventually watch TLJ will generally have a similar reaction to it that the current generations have only with less extremes. I conjecture that unless episode 9 really manages to provide an overarching theme for the saga, and the story of Rey and the ST characters continues, the ST will be seen as superfluous, being overall too similar to the OT to really be considered a worthwhile continuation of the essentially completed story of episodes 1 through 6. The hate for TLJ will die out, but it won’t be loved either. Considering Abrams will likely attempt to bring the ST more in line with his original vision as set out by TFA and the rest of the saga, TLJ will forever be considered the odd one out for better or for worse.

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Eh, I think reactions will be different for generations to come who will be able to watch the entire saga one episode after the other. I mean, yeah, they might have expectations between each movie, but the time for them to build up any expectations will be hours/days/weeks rather than years to decades like many of us. Sure, not every kid is going to like it, but there are going to be kids who love it too.

Considering Abrams also produced the Last Jedi, I would be really surprised if JJ goes in a different direction that is his “original vision”. I guess we’ll see in a year, though, and I guess this debate can never really be resolved until then either.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

RogueLeader said:

Eh, I think reactions will be different for generations to come who will be able to watch the entire saga one episode after the other. I mean, yeah, they might have expectations between each movie, but the time for them to build up any expectations will be hours/days/weeks rather than years to decades like many of us. Sure, not every kid is going to like it, but there are going to be kids who love it too.

Yes, but that’s precisely my point. TLJ fans in my view erroneously presume the distribution of movie ratings will somehow shift to a higher average, while I’m arguing that it’s more likely the distribution will become less wide around a very similar average. An analysis of the imdb ratings for TLJ show that the mean rating (6.9) and the median (7.0) are almost the same, which is solid evidence that the extremes don’t affect the overall perception of the movie, which stands as above average, but still the least liked saga film after the first two prequels.

Author
Time

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

rodneyfaile said:

Luke Skywalker has vanished.
In his absence, the sinister
FIRST ORDER has risen from
the ashes of the Empire
and will not rest until
Skywalker, the last Jedi,
has been destroyed.

With the support of the
REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa
leads a brave RESISTANCE.
She is desperate to find her
brother Luke and gain his
help in restoring peace
and justice to the galaxy.

Leia has sent her most daring
pilot on a secret mission
to Jakku, where an old ally
has discovered a clue to
Luke’s whereabouts…

compared to…

It is a period of civil war.
Rebel spaceships, striking
from a hidden base, have won
their first victory against
the evil Galactic Empire.

During the battle, Rebel
spies managed to steal secret
plans to the Empire’s
ultimate weapon, the DEATH
STAR, an armored space
station with enough power to
destroy an entire planet.

Pursued by the Empire’s
sinister agents, Princess
Leia races home aboard her
starship, custodian of the
stolen plans that can save
her people and restore
freedom to the galaxy…

See how the stage is set by the original crawl. The players are easy to understand and clearly delineated. In TFA the setup is more complex, but rather than go into any part except the First Order, it is all about Luke. TLJ does a better job…

The FIRST ORDER reigns.
Having decimated the peaceful
Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke
now deploys the merciless
legions to seize military
control of the galaxy.

Only General Leia Organa’s
band of RESISTANCE fighters
stand against the rising
tyranny, certain that Jedi
Master Luke Skywalker will
return and restore a spark of
hope to the fight.

But the Resistance has been
exposed. As the First Order
speeds toward the rebel base,
the brave heroes mount a
desperate escape…

The original crawl is a masterclass in efficient exposition. In three paragraphs we know everything we need to know about the conflict. Of course, this wouldn’t be possible without the galactic situation being simple to begin with. The Empire, which controls the galaxy, has a weapon with clearly defined power. The Rebellion, clearly not a major threat due to their lack of victories thus far, has nevertheless gained an opportunity to destroy this weapon. Then establish the princess and the crawl is perfect.

In short:
The Empire
The Death Star
The Death Star as a formidable weapon
The Rebellion
The Princess
The attack
The plans
The Empire’s sinister agents

TFA on the other hand is a complicated situation. For my fanedit I’ve tried to rewrite the crawl over a hundred times, and I’ve come to the conclusion that minus a missing scene that further explains the galaxy, three paragraphs just can’t cut it.

TFA tries to establish:

Luke and his disappearance
The First Order
The origin of the First Order from the Empire
The First Order’s need to kill Luke
The Republic
The Resistance
Leia
The best pilot
Luke as the last Jedi
Jedi as protectors of the galaxy
Leia as Luke’s sister
Jakku
Leia’s old ally

And this is really not even enough exposition, because you still need:

How the First Order arose
Why Luke is gone
Why Luke is important
The Starkiller
How the Starkiller is possible
The relative power of the Republic vs the Resistance and the First Order
…among other things.

I disagree what the crawl has to explain. It has to cover:
The Republic
The First Order
The Resistance
the basic issue and goals of them
and setup the story

Luke and Starkiller aren’t all that important to get the story moving where the Death Star was because the plans were the driving force of the ANH.

I came up with this which covers why the Republic is weak, where the first order came from, what the resistance is doing and why the Republic isn’t. It only gets to Luke as part of the immediate goal of helping Leia. Let me know what you think. It is the same length as most of the crawls.

THE FORCE AWAKENS

For three decades the REPUBLIC has struggled to rebuild. Out on the rim a remnant of the Empire has been reforged as the FIRST ORDER, bent on galactic conquest.

General Leia Organa and her brave band of RESISTANCE have held back the First Order’s advance while the Republic leaders refuse to take the threat seriously.

Following the betrayal of his star pupil, Luke Skywalker vanished. Leia, desperate for his help, has sent a daring pilot to recover a clue to his whereabouts from an old ally…

Author
Time

DrDre said:

RogueLeader said:

Eh, I think reactions will be different for generations to come who will be able to watch the entire saga one episode after the other. I mean, yeah, they might have expectations between each movie, but the time for them to build up any expectations will be hours/days/weeks rather than years to decades like many of us. Sure, not every kid is going to like it, but there are going to be kids who love it too.

Yes, but that’s precisely my point. TLJ fans in my view erroneously presume the distribution of movie ratings will somehow shift to a higher average, while I’m arguing that it’s more likely the distribution will become less wide around a very similar average. An analysis of the imdb ratings for TLJ show that the mean rating (6.9) and the median (7.0) are almost the same, which is solid evidence that the extremes don’t affect the overall perception of the movie, which stands as above average, but still the least liked saga film after the first two prequels.

Again, you are going off of what the current numbers are. All I and some others are saying is give it time and let IX come out so we have a better idea of the trilogy story arc and how TLJ fits. I think some might give TLJ another chance after IX comes out and the reaction might chance. Note, I have never said it will. And the comparisons to TESB are based on how impressions of that film DID change over time. I ranked it is #3 in the OT for the longest time. Gradually as I grew to appreciate it more, it rose to #1. Depending on many factors the fan ranking of TLJ in the ST may rise from #2 of 2 to something better. You can’t say it won’t and I can’t say it will, because neither of us know the future. A lot of it depends on IX and how the story continues and how much of what is in TLJ plays a part in how things work out in IX.

Author
Time

RogueLeader said:

Considering Abrams also produced the Last Jedi, I would be really surprised if JJ goes in a different direction that is his “original vision”. I guess we’ll see in a year, though, and I guess this debate can never really be resolved until then either.

Yes. Some think Abrams had a grand plan that he had laid out and yet he made changes to TFA in light of what Johnson wanted to do in TLJ. I think he will continue and fully follow all of what we see in TLJ, though some revelations could prove to be false, most will be on the money and remain unchanged. Abrams is used to working on a writing team so I don’t think he was too set on anything he might have had in mind.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

yotsuya said:

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

rodneyfaile said:

Luke Skywalker has vanished.
In his absence, the sinister
FIRST ORDER has risen from
the ashes of the Empire
and will not rest until
Skywalker, the last Jedi,
has been destroyed.

With the support of the
REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa
leads a brave RESISTANCE.
She is desperate to find her
brother Luke and gain his
help in restoring peace
and justice to the galaxy.

Leia has sent her most daring
pilot on a secret mission
to Jakku, where an old ally
has discovered a clue to
Luke’s whereabouts…

compared to…

It is a period of civil war.
Rebel spaceships, striking
from a hidden base, have won
their first victory against
the evil Galactic Empire.

During the battle, Rebel
spies managed to steal secret
plans to the Empire’s
ultimate weapon, the DEATH
STAR, an armored space
station with enough power to
destroy an entire planet.

Pursued by the Empire’s
sinister agents, Princess
Leia races home aboard her
starship, custodian of the
stolen plans that can save
her people and restore
freedom to the galaxy…

See how the stage is set by the original crawl. The players are easy to understand and clearly delineated. In TFA the setup is more complex, but rather than go into any part except the First Order, it is all about Luke. TLJ does a better job…

The FIRST ORDER reigns.
Having decimated the peaceful
Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke
now deploys the merciless
legions to seize military
control of the galaxy.

Only General Leia Organa’s
band of RESISTANCE fighters
stand against the rising
tyranny, certain that Jedi
Master Luke Skywalker will
return and restore a spark of
hope to the fight.

But the Resistance has been
exposed. As the First Order
speeds toward the rebel base,
the brave heroes mount a
desperate escape…

The original crawl is a masterclass in efficient exposition. In three paragraphs we know everything we need to know about the conflict. Of course, this wouldn’t be possible without the galactic situation being simple to begin with. The Empire, which controls the galaxy, has a weapon with clearly defined power. The Rebellion, clearly not a major threat due to their lack of victories thus far, has nevertheless gained an opportunity to destroy this weapon. Then establish the princess and the crawl is perfect.

In short:
The Empire
The Death Star
The Death Star as a formidable weapon
The Rebellion
The Princess
The attack
The plans
The Empire’s sinister agents

TFA on the other hand is a complicated situation. For my fanedit I’ve tried to rewrite the crawl over a hundred times, and I’ve come to the conclusion that minus a missing scene that further explains the galaxy, three paragraphs just can’t cut it.

TFA tries to establish:

Luke and his disappearance
The First Order
The origin of the First Order from the Empire
The First Order’s need to kill Luke
The Republic
The Resistance
Leia
The best pilot
Luke as the last Jedi
Jedi as protectors of the galaxy
Leia as Luke’s sister
Jakku
Leia’s old ally

And this is really not even enough exposition, because you still need:

How the First Order arose
Why Luke is gone
Why Luke is important
The Starkiller
How the Starkiller is possible
The relative power of the Republic vs the Resistance and the First Order
…among other things.

I disagree what the crawl has to explain. It has to cover:
The Republic
The First Order
The Resistance
the basic issue and goals of them
and setup the story

Luke and Starkiller aren’t all that important to get the story moving where the Death Star was because the plans were the driving force of the ANH.

I came up with this which covers why the Republic is weak, where the first order came from, what the resistance is doing and why the Republic isn’t. It only gets to Luke as part of the immediate goal of helping Leia. Let me know what you think. It is the same length as most of the crawls.

THE FORCE AWAKENS

For three decades the REPUBLIC has struggled to rebuild. Out on the rim a remnant of the Empire has been reforged as the FIRST ORDER, bent on galactic conquest.

General Leia Organa and her brave band of RESISTANCE have held back the First Order’s advance while the Republic leaders refuse to take the threat seriously.

Following the betrayal of his star pupil, Luke Skywalker vanished. Leia, desperate for his help, has sent a daring pilot to recover a clue to his whereabouts from an old ally…

That is a very comprehensive crawl, and quite effective in its broad strokes.
Of course there are issues with some of the ‘Star Warsy-ness’ of the language, but the biggest issue I see is in the final paragraph. In the best Star Wars crawls the paragraphs form a miniature three act structure of their own. For example, in the original crawl the first paragraph establishes the two players and the inciting incident, the second paragraph explores the nature of the threat, and the third paragraph uses elements from the previous two in order to craft a compelling scenario to be explored throughout the film. This third paragraph can of course introduce more specifics and even new characters, but rarely does it introduce the focus of the story.

For this reason, I don’t think that Luke and the Jedi can be relegated to the end of the crawl. Here’s my new take on an ideal crawl:

The galaxy is in crisis.
Agents of the fallen Empire
have destroyed the fledgling
Jedi Order of the Republic.

Fearing that these agents
have infiltrated even the
Republic Senate, General
Leia Organa mobilizes a
covert RESISTANCE to
counter this Imperial threat,
now known throughout the
galaxy as the vengeful
FIRST ORDER.

Believing that the master
of the Jedi still survives,
Leia sends her most daring
pilot to discover his
whereabouts and return
the light of peace and
justice to the darkening
stars…

DuracellEnergizer: “^He’s embraced the absurd. Don’t expect to gain any conventional understanding from his posts.”
A New Hope Technicolor Recreation (Released!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V2 Released!) and The Starlight Project

Author
Time

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

rodneyfaile said:

Luke Skywalker has vanished.
In his absence, the sinister
FIRST ORDER has risen from
the ashes of the Empire
and will not rest until
Skywalker, the last Jedi,
has been destroyed.

With the support of the
REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa
leads a brave RESISTANCE.
She is desperate to find her
brother Luke and gain his
help in restoring peace
and justice to the galaxy.

Leia has sent her most daring
pilot on a secret mission
to Jakku, where an old ally
has discovered a clue to
Luke’s whereabouts…

compared to…

It is a period of civil war.
Rebel spaceships, striking
from a hidden base, have won
their first victory against
the evil Galactic Empire.

During the battle, Rebel
spies managed to steal secret
plans to the Empire’s
ultimate weapon, the DEATH
STAR, an armored space
station with enough power to
destroy an entire planet.

Pursued by the Empire’s
sinister agents, Princess
Leia races home aboard her
starship, custodian of the
stolen plans that can save
her people and restore
freedom to the galaxy…

See how the stage is set by the original crawl. The players are easy to understand and clearly delineated. In TFA the setup is more complex, but rather than go into any part except the First Order, it is all about Luke. TLJ does a better job…

The FIRST ORDER reigns.
Having decimated the peaceful
Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke
now deploys the merciless
legions to seize military
control of the galaxy.

Only General Leia Organa’s
band of RESISTANCE fighters
stand against the rising
tyranny, certain that Jedi
Master Luke Skywalker will
return and restore a spark of
hope to the fight.

But the Resistance has been
exposed. As the First Order
speeds toward the rebel base,
the brave heroes mount a
desperate escape…

The original crawl is a masterclass in efficient exposition. In three paragraphs we know everything we need to know about the conflict. Of course, this wouldn’t be possible without the galactic situation being simple to begin with. The Empire, which controls the galaxy, has a weapon with clearly defined power. The Rebellion, clearly not a major threat due to their lack of victories thus far, has nevertheless gained an opportunity to destroy this weapon. Then establish the princess and the crawl is perfect.

In short:
The Empire
The Death Star
The Death Star as a formidable weapon
The Rebellion
The Princess
The attack
The plans
The Empire’s sinister agents

TFA on the other hand is a complicated situation. For my fanedit I’ve tried to rewrite the crawl over a hundred times, and I’ve come to the conclusion that minus a missing scene that further explains the galaxy, three paragraphs just can’t cut it.

TFA tries to establish:

Luke and his disappearance
The First Order
The origin of the First Order from the Empire
The First Order’s need to kill Luke
The Republic
The Resistance
Leia
The best pilot
Luke as the last Jedi
Jedi as protectors of the galaxy
Leia as Luke’s sister
Jakku
Leia’s old ally

And this is really not even enough exposition, because you still need:

How the First Order arose
Why Luke is gone
Why Luke is important
The Starkiller
How the Starkiller is possible
The relative power of the Republic vs the Resistance and the First Order
…among other things.

I disagree what the crawl has to explain. It has to cover:
The Republic
The First Order
The Resistance
the basic issue and goals of them
and setup the story

Luke and Starkiller aren’t all that important to get the story moving where the Death Star was because the plans were the driving force of the ANH.

I came up with this which covers why the Republic is weak, where the first order came from, what the resistance is doing and why the Republic isn’t. It only gets to Luke as part of the immediate goal of helping Leia. Let me know what you think. It is the same length as most of the crawls.

THE FORCE AWAKENS

For three decades the REPUBLIC has struggled to rebuild. Out on the rim a remnant of the Empire has been reforged as the FIRST ORDER, bent on galactic conquest.

General Leia Organa and her brave band of RESISTANCE have held back the First Order’s advance while the Republic leaders refuse to take the threat seriously.

Following the betrayal of his star pupil, Luke Skywalker vanished. Leia, desperate for his help, has sent a daring pilot to recover a clue to his whereabouts from an old ally…

That is a very comprehensive crawl, and quite effective in its broad strokes.
Of course there are issues with some of the ‘Star Warsy-ness’ of the language, but the biggest issue I see is in the final paragraph. In the best Star Wars crawls the paragraphs form a miniature three act structure of their own. For example, in the original crawl the first paragraph establishes the two players and the inciting incident, the second paragraph explores the nature of the threat, and the third paragraph uses elements from the previous two in order to craft a compelling scenario to be explored throughout the film. This third paragraph can of course introduce more specifics and even new characters, but rarely does it introduce the focus of the story.

For this reason, I don’t think that Luke and the Jedi can be relegated to the end of the crawl. Here’s my new take on an ideal crawl:

The galaxy is in crisis.
Agents of the fallen Empire
have destroyed the fledgling
Jedi Order of the Republic.

Fearing that these agents
have infiltrated even the
Republic Senate, General
Leia Organa mobilizes a
covert RESISTANCE to
counter this Imperial threat,
now known throughout the
galaxy as the vengeful
FIRST ORDER.

Believing that the master
of the Jedi still survives,
Leia sends her most daring
pilot to discover his
whereabouts and return
the light of peace and
justice to the darkening
stars…

This crawl is super confusing.

Author
Time

Sort of switching gears here…

Most people would agree that Canto Bight was ultimately superfluous to the story in TLJ. But if it were developed just a bit more, it could be the most interesting commentary on the Star Wars galaxy and meta-commentary on the Star Wars universe that has yet appeared in the movies.

All of the questions about the feasibility of Starkiller and the First Order navy could be answered if it were established that there are certain powerful businesses in the Star Wars galaxy purely interested in constant war for the profit they create. The clues are all there in the sequels, from Jakku to Starkiller to Canto Bight and beyond.

I realize that this is probably the point of Canto Bight, but as it is it feels like a bit of simplistic moralizing instead of a revelation. To make it work I think there would need to be more emphasis on a single huge company or constellation of companies which are basically the puppet-masters in the galaxy.

DuracellEnergizer: “^He’s embraced the absurd. Don’t expect to gain any conventional understanding from his posts.”
A New Hope Technicolor Recreation (Released!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V2 Released!) and The Starlight Project

Author
Time

DrDre said:

Shopping Maul said:

oojason said:

Shopping Maul said:

It’s the fans that don’t like it…

Seems a fair few fans do like it (TLJ).
 

Shopping Maul said:

oojason said:

Shopping Maul said:

rodneyfaile said:

CRITICAL OPINION: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK‘S ORIGINAL REVIEWS
JANUARY 23, 2014

https://www.starwars.com/news/critical-opinion-the-empire-strikes-back-original-reviews

There’s some really interesting reading here - but I don’t see how this remotely resembles the reaction to TLJ. The critics cited in this article are basically writing off TESB - and Star Wars as an entity - as childish nonsense. That’s just typical movie-critic snobbery. The fans for the most part wouldn’t have given a damn, and the kids buying action figures in droves would’ve been equally oblivious.

On the other hand the critics loved TLJ. It’s the fans that don’t like it, and this is for reasons of tone and canon and story and so forth. It’s not the same thing at all IMO.

yotsuya said:

Wait for IX to come out. Absorb it. Watch the ST in its complete form and see how TLJ fits and then give us a more reasoned opinion. I bet some will change their mind as many of us did about TESB in the years since it came out.

yotsuya seemed to be saying that some people’s opinions may change or evolve on TLJ when the Sequel Trilogy is complete - and viewed in a different context to what it is now - in a Trilogy only two-thirds finished.

He didn’t seem to be comparing the levels of criticism to both Empire and TLJ - just that some people’s opinions may have changed after Jedi was released and time was taken to reevaluate the Original Trilogy as a whole.

Seems reasonable, that.

rodneyfaile just helpfully posted some additional reviews on Empire he found - doesn’t seem either he or yotsuya were comparing the differences between fan reviews and those of ‘professional’ film critics either.
 

I just think it’s a bit of a ‘Flying Spaghetti Monster’ argument. I’ve seen bad reviews of Citizen Kane. It doesn’t mean I’m going to extrapolate that Transformers Revenge of the Fallen might someday be lauded as genius because Citizen Kane also got some bad reviews. The timing, tone, circumstances etc surrounding TESB are nothing like what has happened with TLJ. I think the comparison is flawed.

I don’t actually care (just like I didn’t care about critics or bad press when I was a kid) but I’d prefer we discussed the movies on their own merits without this ‘TESB was also controversial’ meme. There was no ‘space Leia’ moment in TESB. No-one felt that Luke’s character arc had been betrayed or that general Rieeken was withholding information for no good reason or that Bespin was a waste of time. Let’s stay on point.

Flying Spaghetti Monster argument? Citizen Kane? Extrapolating Revenge Of The Fallen? What…?

In the context of me saying ‘yotsuya seemed to be saying that some people’s opinions may change or evolve on TLJ when the Sequel Trilogy is complete - and viewed in a different context to what it is now - in a Trilogy only two-thirds finished’ the point has been missed by quite some distance. No worries, I’ll leave it there.

Sorry, I’m probably not making my point very well. The ‘flying spaghetti monster’ is a response to shifting the burden of proof in matters of religious faith/discussion. A person of Faith will say “you can’t prove God doesn’t exist” and a skeptic will respond with “well, by that same measure you can’t prove the flying spaghetti monster doesn’t exist”. It’s a way of exposing the fallacy of this type of argument.

Not that this Star Wars stuff is in the same ballpark, but this TESB thing is an annoying meme that has gained lots of internet traction as some kind of clever slam-dunk for the merits of TLJ. Yes, people’s opinions may change when TLJ is viewed in the context of a completed trilogy, but so what? We can’t possibly know what people will think of TLJ years from now. TESB existed in an entirely different context. If the criticisms were actually similar (plotholes, Luke’s character ruined, pointless side-plots, overuse of humour, canon violations, perceived virtue-signalling etc etc) then we could extrapolate something at least slightly meaningful. But in this instance it’s about as ridiculous as my comparing Citizen Kane to Transformers.

I understand what’s being said here (and I have zero desire to insult anyone on these boards - let me be absolutely clear about that!). One of my favourite films, Conan 1982, was given some lousy feedback in its day and has since garnered an impressive reputation as a giant in the genre. So yes, it can and does happen. But we won’t know until it happens (it may be go the opposite way for all we know) and I just don’t think the comparison is a particularly valid one.

I think the fallacy is in the idea, that much of the criticism against the ST is based on nostalgia from the past and expectations that stem from previous installments. However, unlike the previous two trilogies, which can both be considered reasonable starting points for watching the Skywalker saga, episode IV being the one that started it all, and episode I being the actual beginning, the ST will never really stand on its own. As such those that watch TLJ in the more distant future will still watch it with expectations based on the previous episodes. In this context it’s important to point out that a lot of criticism against TLJ also came from those who felt it didn’t provide satisfactory answers to the mystery boxes introduced by TFA, so criticism against TLJ isn’t linked specifically to OT nostalgia. As such, those that like the Skywalker saga enough to eventually watch TLJ will generally have a similar reaction to it that the current generations have only with less extremes. I conjecture that unless episode 9 really manages to provide an overarching theme for the saga, and the story of Rey and the ST characters continues, the ST will be seen as superfluous, being overall too similar to the OT to really be considered a worthwhile continuation of the essentially completed story of episodes 1 through 6. The hate for TLJ will die out, but it won’t be loved either. Considering Abrams will likely attempt to bring the ST more in line with his original vision as set out by TFA and the rest of the saga, TLJ will forever be considered the odd one out for better or for worse.

I agree. And while I think time will smooth out some of TLJ’s rough edges, I still maintain that Canto Bight, space Leia, and Holdo’s communication issues will go the way of Jar Jar Binks, “I don’t like sand”, and “she’s lost the will to live”. I don’t foresee a ‘fine wine’ scenario with this stuff.

It will be interesting to see if Abrams can make this trilogy seem ‘necessary’ given how conclusively RoTJ ended the series. I think it’ll take more than the current ‘the Empire was defeated and then grew back again’ vibe of the SE to make it feel like an intrinsic part of a 9-film saga.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Shopping Maul said:

DrDre said:

Shopping Maul said:

oojason said:

Shopping Maul said:

It’s the fans that don’t like it…

Seems a fair few fans do like it (TLJ).
 

Shopping Maul said:

oojason said:

Shopping Maul said:

rodneyfaile said:

CRITICAL OPINION: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK‘S ORIGINAL REVIEWS
JANUARY 23, 2014

https://www.starwars.com/news/critical-opinion-the-empire-strikes-back-original-reviews

There’s some really interesting reading here - but I don’t see how this remotely resembles the reaction to TLJ. The critics cited in this article are basically writing off TESB - and Star Wars as an entity - as childish nonsense. That’s just typical movie-critic snobbery. The fans for the most part wouldn’t have given a damn, and the kids buying action figures in droves would’ve been equally oblivious.

On the other hand the critics loved TLJ. It’s the fans that don’t like it, and this is for reasons of tone and canon and story and so forth. It’s not the same thing at all IMO.

yotsuya said:

Wait for IX to come out. Absorb it. Watch the ST in its complete form and see how TLJ fits and then give us a more reasoned opinion. I bet some will change their mind as many of us did about TESB in the years since it came out.

yotsuya seemed to be saying that some people’s opinions may change or evolve on TLJ when the Sequel Trilogy is complete - and viewed in a different context to what it is now - in a Trilogy only two-thirds finished.

He didn’t seem to be comparing the levels of criticism to both Empire and TLJ - just that some people’s opinions may have changed after Jedi was released and time was taken to reevaluate the Original Trilogy as a whole.

Seems reasonable, that.

rodneyfaile just helpfully posted some additional reviews on Empire he found - doesn’t seem either he or yotsuya were comparing the differences between fan reviews and those of ‘professional’ film critics either.
 

I just think it’s a bit of a ‘Flying Spaghetti Monster’ argument. I’ve seen bad reviews of Citizen Kane. It doesn’t mean I’m going to extrapolate that Transformers Revenge of the Fallen might someday be lauded as genius because Citizen Kane also got some bad reviews. The timing, tone, circumstances etc surrounding TESB are nothing like what has happened with TLJ. I think the comparison is flawed.

I don’t actually care (just like I didn’t care about critics or bad press when I was a kid) but I’d prefer we discussed the movies on their own merits without this ‘TESB was also controversial’ meme. There was no ‘space Leia’ moment in TESB. No-one felt that Luke’s character arc had been betrayed or that general Rieeken was withholding information for no good reason or that Bespin was a waste of time. Let’s stay on point.

Flying Spaghetti Monster argument? Citizen Kane? Extrapolating Revenge Of The Fallen? What…?

In the context of me saying ‘yotsuya seemed to be saying that some people’s opinions may change or evolve on TLJ when the Sequel Trilogy is complete - and viewed in a different context to what it is now - in a Trilogy only two-thirds finished’ the point has been missed by quite some distance. No worries, I’ll leave it there.

Sorry, I’m probably not making my point very well. The ‘flying spaghetti monster’ is a response to shifting the burden of proof in matters of religious faith/discussion. A person of Faith will say “you can’t prove God doesn’t exist” and a skeptic will respond with “well, by that same measure you can’t prove the flying spaghetti monster doesn’t exist”. It’s a way of exposing the fallacy of this type of argument.

Not that this Star Wars stuff is in the same ballpark, but this TESB thing is an annoying meme that has gained lots of internet traction as some kind of clever slam-dunk for the merits of TLJ. Yes, people’s opinions may change when TLJ is viewed in the context of a completed trilogy, but so what? We can’t possibly know what people will think of TLJ years from now. TESB existed in an entirely different context. If the criticisms were actually similar (plotholes, Luke’s character ruined, pointless side-plots, overuse of humour, canon violations, perceived virtue-signalling etc etc) then we could extrapolate something at least slightly meaningful. But in this instance it’s about as ridiculous as my comparing Citizen Kane to Transformers.

I understand what’s being said here (and I have zero desire to insult anyone on these boards - let me be absolutely clear about that!). One of my favourite films, Conan 1982, was given some lousy feedback in its day and has since garnered an impressive reputation as a giant in the genre. So yes, it can and does happen. But we won’t know until it happens (it may be go the opposite way for all we know) and I just don’t think the comparison is a particularly valid one.

I think the fallacy is in the idea, that much of the criticism against the ST is based on nostalgia from the past and expectations that stem from previous installments. However, unlike the previous two trilogies, which can both be considered reasonable starting points for watching the Skywalker saga, episode IV being the one that started it all, and episode I being the actual beginning, the ST will never really stand on its own. As such those that watch TLJ in the more distant future will still watch it with expectations based on the previous episodes. In this context it’s important to point out that a lot of criticism against TLJ also came from those who felt it didn’t provide satisfactory answers to the mystery boxes introduced by TFA, so criticism against TLJ isn’t linked specifically to OT nostalgia. As such, those that like the Skywalker saga enough to eventually watch TLJ will generally have a similar reaction to it that the current generations have only with less extremes. I conjecture that unless episode 9 really manages to provide an overarching theme for the saga, and the story of Rey and the ST characters continues, the ST will be seen as superfluous, being overall too similar to the OT to really be considered a worthwhile continuation of the essentially completed story of episodes 1 through 6. The hate for TLJ will die out, but it won’t be loved either. Considering Abrams will likely attempt to bring the ST more in line with his original vision as set out by TFA and the rest of the saga, TLJ will forever be considered the odd one out for better or for worse.

I agree. And while I think time will smooth out some of TLJ’s rough edges, I still maintain that Canto Bight, space Leia, and Holdo’s communication issues will go the way of Jar Jar Binks, “I don’t like sand”, and “she’s lost the will to live”. I don’t foresee a ‘fine wine’ scenario with this stuff.

It will be interesting to see if Abrams can make this trilogy seem ‘necessary’ given how conclusively RoTJ ended the series. I think it’ll take more than the current ‘the Empire was defeated and then grew back again’ vibe of the SE to make it feel like an intrinsic part of a 9-film saga.

I think the ST biggest problem is, that it hasn’t provided any story point that underlines the relevance of this trilogy to the larger story, by for example providing a bigger bad guy with strong links to the past. In stead Snoke was turned into a plot device, and his replacement Kylo Ren is essentially presented as a highly emotional bad egg who for some unknown reason was seduced by said plot device, despite growing up in a loving family. As such, there’s very little connective tissue between the first six episodes and the ST other than the idea that sometimes things don’t work out the way you want, and a lot can happen in thirty years, which are hardly compelling story developments. As a consequence there’s good to be found in the moment, and in the way these characters interact, but in terms of the bigger picture it’s pretty muddied. So, Abrams has the difficult task of making this trilogy not just powerful in its own right, but relevant to the saga as a whole.

Author
Time

screams in the void said:

^ that is a super callous response

If you’re one who assumes the worst of people, I can see how it might seem that way. That was certainly not my intention, though I probably should have been more specific in my response.

Neverar submitted his crawl as an improvement to Yotsuya’s attempt at rewriting the crawl. I found it to be confusing with the implied relationship between the Republic and the New Jedi Order and someone infiltrating the Senate. None of which is touched on in the actual movie. I had to read the crawl a few times to try and make sense of it, that’s all. I wasn’t trying to put down Neverar.

Author
Time

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

rodneyfaile said:

Luke Skywalker has vanished.
In his absence, the sinister
FIRST ORDER has risen from
the ashes of the Empire
and will not rest until
Skywalker, the last Jedi,
has been destroyed.

With the support of the
REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa
leads a brave RESISTANCE.
She is desperate to find her
brother Luke and gain his
help in restoring peace
and justice to the galaxy.

Leia has sent her most daring
pilot on a secret mission
to Jakku, where an old ally
has discovered a clue to
Luke’s whereabouts…

compared to…

It is a period of civil war.
Rebel spaceships, striking
from a hidden base, have won
their first victory against
the evil Galactic Empire.

During the battle, Rebel
spies managed to steal secret
plans to the Empire’s
ultimate weapon, the DEATH
STAR, an armored space
station with enough power to
destroy an entire planet.

Pursued by the Empire’s
sinister agents, Princess
Leia races home aboard her
starship, custodian of the
stolen plans that can save
her people and restore
freedom to the galaxy…

See how the stage is set by the original crawl. The players are easy to understand and clearly delineated. In TFA the setup is more complex, but rather than go into any part except the First Order, it is all about Luke. TLJ does a better job…

The FIRST ORDER reigns.
Having decimated the peaceful
Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke
now deploys the merciless
legions to seize military
control of the galaxy.

Only General Leia Organa’s
band of RESISTANCE fighters
stand against the rising
tyranny, certain that Jedi
Master Luke Skywalker will
return and restore a spark of
hope to the fight.

But the Resistance has been
exposed. As the First Order
speeds toward the rebel base,
the brave heroes mount a
desperate escape…

The original crawl is a masterclass in efficient exposition. In three paragraphs we know everything we need to know about the conflict. Of course, this wouldn’t be possible without the galactic situation being simple to begin with. The Empire, which controls the galaxy, has a weapon with clearly defined power. The Rebellion, clearly not a major threat due to their lack of victories thus far, has nevertheless gained an opportunity to destroy this weapon. Then establish the princess and the crawl is perfect.

In short:
The Empire
The Death Star
The Death Star as a formidable weapon
The Rebellion
The Princess
The attack
The plans
The Empire’s sinister agents

TFA on the other hand is a complicated situation. For my fanedit I’ve tried to rewrite the crawl over a hundred times, and I’ve come to the conclusion that minus a missing scene that further explains the galaxy, three paragraphs just can’t cut it.

TFA tries to establish:

Luke and his disappearance
The First Order
The origin of the First Order from the Empire
The First Order’s need to kill Luke
The Republic
The Resistance
Leia
The best pilot
Luke as the last Jedi
Jedi as protectors of the galaxy
Leia as Luke’s sister
Jakku
Leia’s old ally

And this is really not even enough exposition, because you still need:

How the First Order arose
Why Luke is gone
Why Luke is important
The Starkiller
How the Starkiller is possible
The relative power of the Republic vs the Resistance and the First Order
…among other things.

I disagree what the crawl has to explain. It has to cover:
The Republic
The First Order
The Resistance
the basic issue and goals of them
and setup the story

Luke and Starkiller aren’t all that important to get the story moving where the Death Star was because the plans were the driving force of the ANH.

I came up with this which covers why the Republic is weak, where the first order came from, what the resistance is doing and why the Republic isn’t. It only gets to Luke as part of the immediate goal of helping Leia. Let me know what you think. It is the same length as most of the crawls.

THE FORCE AWAKENS

For three decades the REPUBLIC has struggled to rebuild. Out on the rim a remnant of the Empire has been reforged as the FIRST ORDER, bent on galactic conquest.

General Leia Organa and her brave band of RESISTANCE have held back the First Order’s advance while the Republic leaders refuse to take the threat seriously.

Following the betrayal of his star pupil, Luke Skywalker vanished. Leia, desperate for his help, has sent a daring pilot to recover a clue to his whereabouts from an old ally…

That is a very comprehensive crawl, and quite effective in its broad strokes.
Of course there are issues with some of the ‘Star Warsy-ness’ of the language, but the biggest issue I see is in the final paragraph. In the best Star Wars crawls the paragraphs form a miniature three act structure of their own. For example, in the original crawl the first paragraph establishes the two players and the inciting incident, the second paragraph explores the nature of the threat, and the third paragraph uses elements from the previous two in order to craft a compelling scenario to be explored throughout the film. This third paragraph can of course introduce more specifics and even new characters, but rarely does it introduce the focus of the story.

For this reason, I don’t think that Luke and the Jedi can be relegated to the end of the crawl. Here’s my new take on an ideal crawl:

The galaxy is in crisis.
Agents of the fallen Empire
have destroyed the fledgling
Jedi Order of the Republic.

Fearing that these agents
have infiltrated even the
Republic Senate, General
Leia Organa mobilizes a
covert RESISTANCE to
counter this Imperial threat,
now known throughout the
galaxy as the vengeful
FIRST ORDER.

Believing that the master
of the Jedi still survives,
Leia sends her most daring
pilot to discover his
whereabouts and return
the light of peace and
justice to the darkening
stars…

My problem with this is that the Jedi are no more significant to this story than they were to ANH. And in ANH, the Jedi aren’t mentioned in the crawl - only the over arching conflict and the immediate circumstances that lead to the first scene. Luke’s disappearance features in Abrams crawl, but it is really a footnote to the film. He places the goal of the first order as destroying the Jedi when in the film the goal is to take over the Republic. In fact the Jedi aren’t mentioned once in the OT crawls. Dealing with that in the crawl is superfluous to the plot of the movie. That is why I save Luke’s disappearance and Leia’s quest to the last paragraph, because it more relates to the start of the story and Luke as the McGuffin than it does to the main story in TFA.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Seems TLJ will end up being the best selling blu ray of 2018 in the US (was released in April):-

https://www.the-numbers.com/home-market/bluray-sales/2018

^ Solo seems to have sold well too (was released towards the end of September).
 

Edit: DVD sales of 2018 in the US - https://www.the-numbers.com/home-market/dvd-sales/2018
 

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here?
And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

Author
Time

Shopping Maul said:

screams in the void said:

Defending Admiral Holdo in The Last Jedi …https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kyfb-K1rbY

And on the other hand…(not trying to be a jerk, I honestly think this is a valid rebuttal)…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zy7RY3HgKQ

interesting video , I can see some of his points , though I would argue that Holdo was a little pissed that her best friend Leia was hospitalized and Leia was also in on Holdo’s plan .I completely disagree with the suggestion towards the end of the video that TLJ had no quiet character driven moments though …here is one …https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GU4hyN5rnk and another …https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yepMuMoAKpA

https://screamsinthevoid.deviantart.com/

Author
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screams in the void said:

Shopping Maul said:

screams in the void said:

Defending Admiral Holdo in The Last Jedi …https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kyfb-K1rbY

And on the other hand…(not trying to be a jerk, I honestly think this is a valid rebuttal)…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zy7RY3HgKQ

interesting video , I can see some of his points , though I would argue that Holdo was a little pissed that her best friend Leia was hospitalized and Leia was also in on Holdo’s plan .I completely disagree with the suggestion towards the end of the video that TLJ had no quiet character driven moments though …here is one …https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GU4hyN5rnk and another …https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yepMuMoAKpA

I totally agree - in fact I nearly mentioned it when I posted but didn’t want to throw a wall of text at you. But yeah, the ‘quieter moments’ thing doesn’t entirely ring true for me either. In fact I really like the moment between Leia and Holdo (just before Holdo’s sacrifice) - there is just so much in that little scene that speaks volumes about the possible past that Leia and Holdo share. Plus, I think ‘pacing’ as a concept has changed a lot over the years. I remember when Star Wars itself was considered a non-stop breakneck roller coaster ride. It only got ‘slower’ with time.

Also that AOTC scene he shows with Anakin and Palpatine is like the one character moment that demonstrates the dynamic between those two - which isn’t much given that this is supposedly the backbone of Anakin’s seduction/fall! So yeah, I really love Mauler’s content generally but I don’t agree with him on all points.

Re the clip you posted - I do respect his point of view, even if I don’t agree with it, but I’m not with him on the idea of Holdo being Ackbar. I think the whole point of her being an unknown quantity is/was important. Had it been Ackbar there’d be no surprise to the twist/sacrifice.

Thanks as always for sharing and happy Xmas/Festivus/Life day!