Can't be Bothered: justifying Rey's power vs Luke's — Page 2

oojason said:

Valheru_84 said:

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

I just found this and read the first post. I had to laugh at the idea that Rey flew the Falcon so well. She practically crashed the thing trying to take off. Once they were in the air she did pretty good, but when you compare that to Luke, he flew his X-wing like a pro from the beginning.

Luke is the best stunt pilot in the outer rim territories, and has clearly been flying for years. And it’s notable that even he never does anything terribly flashy in the OT. Rey’s handling of the Falcon is about how you’d expect in the first few moments, but after that she successfully executes maneuvers far in excess of anything we’ve seen before. If anything, the contrast between almost crashing and ace-level piloting makes her abilities all the more noticeable.

Rey has to try things before she succeeds, pretty much the way Luke did. And she does have a teacher. She learns just about everything she does from Kylo Ren.

She has never seen Klyo use a Jedi mind trick or even successfully gain his desired information from interrogation, though she manages a successful and proper mind trick after a minute or two of trying.
She has never seen successful telekinesis or levitation, yet apparently learns this on the first attempt after only a moment of intention from Kylo. Interestingly, Kylo never indicates that he is aware of teaching Rey ‘You need a teacher! I can show you the ways of the Force!’ and Rey never acknowledges that she has gained knowledge from Kylo ‘The Force…’.

I’d still like to know who taught Luke to lift his lightsaber in TESB.

If only there was some sort of Jedi mentor which has been established to help Luke from beyond the grave, or a time jump of several years to help the audience suspend their disbelief. Or both.

Pretty much all of this ^

It’s amusing how people that defend TLJ accuse the detractors of cherry picking but then do exactly that themselves in defending it. Someone comments generally about Rey’s unbelievable command of a ship she’s never flown before (if she’s ever flown at all??) and so the defense is to post a gif of her crashing in the first few seconds…before she’s pulling flips and advanced manoeuvres in the middle of a star destroyer wreck?

Cherrypicking? The gif was posted in response to this post…

yotsuya said:

I just found this and read the first post. I had to laugh at the idea that Rey flew the Falcon so well. She practically crashed the thing trying to take off. Once they were in the air she did pretty good, but when you compare that to Luke, he flew his X-wing like a pro from the beginning. Rey has to try things before she succeeds, pretty much the way Luke did. And she does have a teacher. She learns just about everything she does from Kylo Ren. I’d still like to know who taught Luke to lift his lightsaber in TESB.

… as quoted in my post with the gif.
 

I don’t think that’s cherrypicking - the first line of yotsuya’s post ‘I had to laugh at the idea that Rey flew the Falcon so well. She practically crashed the thing trying to take off.’

Seems the gif represents that quite well, yes?

I wasn’t replying to KurganX’s opening post - nor ‘defending’ TLJ - just highlighting what actually occurred in the film - as yotsuya mentioned.

Wow.
 

Where in the posts your replying to do they mention your name? He’s saying people in general.

oojason said:

LordZerome1080 said:

oojason said:

Valheru_84 said:

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

I just found this and read the first post. I had to laugh at the idea that Rey flew the Falcon so well. She practically crashed the thing trying to take off. Once they were in the air she did pretty good, but when you compare that to Luke, he flew his X-wing like a pro from the beginning.

Luke is the best stunt pilot in the outer rim territories, and has clearly been flying for years. And it’s notable that even he never does anything terribly flashy in the OT. Rey’s handling of the Falcon is about how you’d expect in the first few moments, but after that she successfully executes maneuvers far in excess of anything we’ve seen before. If anything, the contrast between almost crashing and ace-level piloting makes her abilities all the more noticeable.

Rey has to try things before she succeeds, pretty much the way Luke did. And she does have a teacher. She learns just about everything she does from Kylo Ren.

She has never seen Klyo use a Jedi mind trick or even successfully gain his desired information from interrogation, though she manages a successful and proper mind trick after a minute or two of trying.
She has never seen successful telekinesis or levitation, yet apparently learns this on the first attempt after only a moment of intention from Kylo. Interestingly, Kylo never indicates that he is aware of teaching Rey ‘You need a teacher! I can show you the ways of the Force!’ and Rey never acknowledges that she has gained knowledge from Kylo ‘The Force…’.

I’d still like to know who taught Luke to lift his lightsaber in TESB.

If only there was some sort of Jedi mentor which has been established to help Luke from beyond the grave, or a time jump of several years to help the audience suspend their disbelief. Or both.

Pretty much all of this ^

It’s amusing how people that defend TLJ accuse the detractors of cherry picking but then do exactly that themselves in defending it. Someone comments generally about Rey’s unbelievable command of a ship she’s never flown before (if she’s ever flown at all??) and so the defense is to post a gif of her crashing in the first few seconds…before she’s pulling flips and advanced manoeuvres in the middle of a star destroyer wreck?

Cherrypicking? The gif was posted in response to this post…

yotsuya said:

I just found this and read the first post. I had to laugh at the idea that Rey flew the Falcon so well. She practically crashed the thing trying to take off. Once they were in the air she did pretty good, but when you compare that to Luke, he flew his X-wing like a pro from the beginning. Rey has to try things before she succeeds, pretty much the way Luke did. And she does have a teacher. She learns just about everything she does from Kylo Ren. I’d still like to know who taught Luke to lift his lightsaber in TESB.

… as quoted in my post with the gif.
 

I don’t think that’s cherrypicking - the first line of yotsuya’s post ‘I had to laugh at the idea that Rey flew the Falcon so well. She practically crashed the thing trying to take off.’

Seems the gif represents that quite well, yes?

I wasn’t replying to KurganX’s opening post - nor ‘defending’ TLJ - just highlighting what actually occurred in the film - as yotsuya mentioned.

Wow.
 

Where in the posts your replying to do they mention your name? He’s saying people in general.

Valheru_84 said:

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

I just found this and read the first post. I had to laugh at the idea that Rey flew the Falcon so well. She practically crashed the thing trying to take off. Once they were in the air she did pretty good, but when you compare that to Luke, he flew his X-wing like a pro from the beginning.

Luke is the best stunt pilot in the outer rim territories, and has clearly been flying for years. And it’s notable that even he never does anything terribly flashy in the OT. Rey’s handling of the Falcon is about how you’d expect in the first few moments, but after that she successfully executes maneuvers far in excess of anything we’ve seen before. If anything, the contrast between almost crashing and ace-level piloting makes her abilities all the more noticeable.

Rey has to try things before she succeeds, pretty much the way Luke did. And she does have a teacher. She learns just about everything she does from Kylo Ren.

She has never seen Klyo use a Jedi mind trick or even successfully gain his desired information from interrogation, though she manages a successful and proper mind trick after a minute or two of trying.
She has never seen successful telekinesis or levitation, yet apparently learns this on the first attempt after only a moment of intention from Kylo. Interestingly, Kylo never indicates that he is aware of teaching Rey ‘You need a teacher! I can show you the ways of the Force!’ and Rey never acknowledges that she has gained knowledge from Kylo ‘The Force…’.

I’d still like to know who taught Luke to lift his lightsaber in TESB.

If only there was some sort of Jedi mentor which has been established to help Luke from beyond the grave, or a time jump of several years to help the audience suspend their disbelief. Or both.

Pretty much all of this ^

It’s amusing how people that defend TLJ accuse the detractors of cherry picking but then do exactly that themselves in defending it. Someone comments generally about Rey’s unbelievable command of a ship she’s never flown before (if she’s ever flown at all??) and so the defense is to post a gif of her crashing in the first few seconds…before she’s pulling flips and advanced manoeuvres in the middle of a star destroyer wreck?

Highlighted the relevant part for you mate - nobody else has posted a gif in here.
 

Sorry about that I hadn’t noticed.

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

I just found this and read the first post. I had to laugh at the idea that Rey flew the Falcon so well. She practically crashed the thing trying to take off. Once they were in the air she did pretty good, but when you compare that to Luke, he flew his X-wing like a pro from the beginning.

Luke is the best stunt pilot in the outer rim territories, and has clearly been flying for years. And it’s notable that even he never does anything terribly flashy in the OT. Rey’s handling of the Falcon is about how you’d expect in the first few moments, but after that she successfully executes maneuvers far in excess of anything we’ve seen before. If anything, the contrast between almost crashing and ace-level piloting makes her abilities all the more noticeable.

Rey has to try things before she succeeds, pretty much the way Luke did. And she does have a teacher. She learns just about everything she does from Kylo Ren.

She has never seen Klyo use a Jedi mind trick or even successfully gain his desired information from interrogation, though she manages a successful and proper mind trick after a minute or two of trying.
She has never seen successful telekinesis or levitation, yet apparently learns this on the first attempt after only a moment of intention from Kylo. Interestingly, Kylo never indicates that he is aware of teaching Rey ‘You need a teacher! I can show you the ways of the Force!’ and Rey never acknowledges that she has gained knowledge from Kylo ‘The Force…’.

I’d still like to know who taught Luke to lift his lightsaber in TESB.

If only there was some sort of Jedi mentor which has been established to help Luke from beyond the grave, or a time jump of several years to help the audience suspend their disbelief. Or both.

How about waiting until IX is out and then perhaps many of your questions will have answers.

Creox said:

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

I just found this and read the first post. I had to laugh at the idea that Rey flew the Falcon so well. She practically crashed the thing trying to take off. Once they were in the air she did pretty good, but when you compare that to Luke, he flew his X-wing like a pro from the beginning.

Luke is the best stunt pilot in the outer rim territories, and has clearly been flying for years. And it’s notable that even he never does anything terribly flashy in the OT. Rey’s handling of the Falcon is about how you’d expect in the first few moments, but after that she successfully executes maneuvers far in excess of anything we’ve seen before. If anything, the contrast between almost crashing and ace-level piloting makes her abilities all the more noticeable.

Rey has to try things before she succeeds, pretty much the way Luke did. And she does have a teacher. She learns just about everything she does from Kylo Ren.

She has never seen Klyo use a Jedi mind trick or even successfully gain his desired information from interrogation, though she manages a successful and proper mind trick after a minute or two of trying.
She has never seen successful telekinesis or levitation, yet apparently learns this on the first attempt after only a moment of intention from Kylo. Interestingly, Kylo never indicates that he is aware of teaching Rey ‘You need a teacher! I can show you the ways of the Force!’ and Rey never acknowledges that she has gained knowledge from Kylo ‘The Force…’.

I’d still like to know who taught Luke to lift his lightsaber in TESB.

If only there was some sort of Jedi mentor which has been established to help Luke from beyond the grave, or a time jump of several years to help the audience suspend their disbelief. Or both.

How about waiting until IX is out and then perhaps many of your questions will have answers.

How about not defending the ST on a thread that has the goal of taking it apart.

So this thread is just meant to be an echo chamber without meaningful discussion? Also, how about don’t police threads you didn’t create?

ChainsawAsh said:

So this thread is just meant to be an echo chamber without meaningful discussion? Also, how about don’t police threads you didn’t create?

Apologies.

NeverarGreat said:

Luke is the best stunt pilot in the outer rim territories, and has clearly been flying for years. And it’s notable that even he never does anything terribly flashy in the OT. Rey’s handling of the Falcon is about how you’d expect in the first few moments, but after that she successfully executes maneuvers far in excess of anything we’ve seen before. If anything, the contrast between almost crashing and ace-level piloting makes her abilities all the more noticeable.

I can’t defend her force abilities, but her piloting abilities being superior to Luke’s can easily be explained. TFA was made in 2015 when anything is possible with CGI. The film-makers didn’t care about making her abilities realistic relative to her circumstances or what has previously been seen in Star Wars. I think they just wanted to make a modern action scene for their modern action movie that modern audiences have come to expect.

They needed an exciting scene with spaceships flying loop-de-loops in the desert that makes me nauseous. So eeny meeny miny moe, let’s have Rey fly the ship.

It seems Rey has flown before (like the quad-jumper that blew up), but she hasn’t flown the Falcon. Despite that, she seems to be really familiar with the controls and ins-and-outs of the Falcon. From her dialogue it seems like she helped Unkar Plutt make repairs to the Falcon, and was also familiar with the modifications Plutt made that she didn’t agree with.

SilverWook said:

Wasn’t it said or implied she had flown the Falcon before, or did I hallucinate that?

No, she specifically states that the Falcon hasn’t flown in years.

She’s probably played around in the cockpit and such, being a tinkerer. It’s possible she flew it once years before, or has in a simulator, but she does say “That thing hasn’t flown in years!” She might also say that she’s never flown it herself right before or after that, I can’t recall and am at work so can’t check.

NeverarGreat said:

That’s why I don’t have an issue with this scene apart from the inconsistency when compared to the OT - it feels like an almost necessary change for modern audiences. The immediate Force abilities on the other hand…

Yes, and I think this goes back to my perspective that the Force plays a more active role in this trilogy. If you dropped Rey into the prequels or the original trilogy, I don’t think Rey’s abilities would be as significant as they are in the Sequel Trilogy.

I know some people don’t like the idea of a dynamic Force, some people see the Force as more of a “what” than a “who”, but I don’t think you have to think of the Force as a conscious entity. You could interpret the Force as like the immune system of the galaxy, or how an ecosystem adapts to drastic changes in the environment. Just my two cents though.

RogueLeader said:

NeverarGreat said:

That’s why I don’t have an issue with this scene apart from the inconsistency when compared to the OT - it feels like an almost necessary change for modern audiences. The immediate Force abilities on the other hand…

Yes, and I think this goes back to my perspective that the Force plays a more active role in this trilogy. If you dropped Rey into the prequels or the original trilogy, I don’t think Rey’s abilities would be as significant as they are in the Sequel Trilogy.

I know some people don’t like the idea of a dynamic Force, some people see the Force as more of a “what” than a “who”, but I don’t think you have to think of the Force as a conscious entity. You could interpret the Force as like the immune system of the galaxy, or how an ecosystem adapts to drastic changes in the environment. Just my two cents though.

Yup, this is very much how I’ve been interpreting it in the ST.

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

I just found this and read the first post. I had to laugh at the idea that Rey flew the Falcon so well. She practically crashed the thing trying to take off. Once they were in the air she did pretty good, but when you compare that to Luke, he flew his X-wing like a pro from the beginning.

Luke is the best stunt pilot in the outer rim territories, and has clearly been flying for years. And it’s notable that even he never does anything terribly flashy in the OT. Rey’s handling of the Falcon is about how you’d expect in the first few moments, but after that she successfully executes maneuvers far in excess of anything we’ve seen before. If anything, the contrast between almost crashing and ace-level piloting makes her abilities all the more noticeable.

We don’t know what experience either of them have, but they both obviously have quite a bit. We only see either of them using speeders and are told that Luke has used a Skyhopper before. So Rey does a much worse job than Luke at the start and they both fair about the same not too long later (Luke successfully dogfights with highly trained Imperial pilots who in the end take out 27 of the 30 rebel craft).

Rey has to try things before she succeeds, pretty much the way Luke did. And she does have a teacher. She learns just about everything she does from Kylo Ren.

She has never seen Klyo use a Jedi mind trick or even successfully gain his desired information from interrogation, though she manages a successful and proper mind trick after a minute or two of trying.
She has never seen successful telekinesis or levitation, yet apparently learns this on the first attempt after only a moment of intention from Kylo. Interestingly, Kylo never indicates that he is aware of teaching Rey ‘You need a teacher! I can show you the ways of the Force!’ and Rey never acknowledges that she has gained knowledge from Kylo ‘The Force…’.

Rey read Kylo’s mind. Who know what she may have seen and now knows is possible. She also was given a vision from the Lightsaber. So pretty much anything she tries after that point is not out of thin air. Now if she did everything perfect the first time and didn’t have to try a few times, their might be a point, but she does struggle as much as Luke did learning any particular skill.

I’d still like to know who taught Luke to lift his lightsaber in TESB.

If only there was some sort of Jedi mentor which has been established to help Luke from beyond the grave, or a time jump of several years to help the audience suspend their disbelief. Or both.

Well, from his reaction to seeing Ben, it seems pretty clear Ben had not appeared to him before so Ben would not have been teaching him from beyond the grave. Otherwise there would be no need for Yoda.

yotsuya said:

Well, from his reaction to seeing Ben, it seems pretty clear Ben had not appeared to him before so Ben would not have been teaching him from beyond the grave. Otherwise there would be no need for Yoda.

It would not make sense for Luke to simply give up on the Force for the three years between ANH and TESB. You wouldn’t go “oh well, my mentor’s dead so I’m out”. The implication is that he kept training - to whatever extent. “But I’ve learned so much” is an indication of that.

The Marvel series had Luke training with remotes, meditating, using the Force in battle, and communing with ghost-Obi Wan. This obviously doesn’t count as ‘canon’, but it does indicate the logic of assuming Luke would carry on as best he could. Marvel were on a tight leash with regard to how much they could develop these characters, and they did not know the details of TESB until very close to the movie. There was a fan letter in one issue circa mid-1980 that said something like “you need to pick up the pace because it looks like Luke will be levitating small objects in the next movie - you guys still have him practising with his Lightsaber”. Again, this is a fan assuming the logic of Luke self-training as best he could. Yoda never said “download these skills you must, save time you will”. Training is crucial in the OT. Not in the ST.

Luke’s best friend mentions he’s a good pilot? Not in the movie I watch.

Also, we don’t see Luke pilot a ship until the end of the movie, so it’s necessary to set it up so it doesn’t come out of nowhere. When Rey says she’s a pilot as they’re running towards the Falcon, we’re still learning who she is. There’s no reason why we shouldn’t take her at her word, and it would have been silly to mention so earlier (“That’s Teedo. He has no respect for anyone. But I’m Rey and I fly ships good”).

DominicCobb said:

Luke’s best friend mentions he’s a good pilot? Not in the movie I watch.

Also, we don’t see Luke pilot a ship until the end of the movie, so it’s necessary to set it up so it doesn’t come out of nowhere. When Rey says she’s a pilot as they’re running towards the Falcon, we’re still learning who she is. There’s no reason why we shouldn’t take her at her word, and it would have been silly to mention so earlier (“That’s Teedo. He has no respect for anyone. But I’m Rey and I fly ships good”).

I think he’s talking about the deleted Biggs scene.