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Best Explanation Of Mary Sue Issue — Page 4

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NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

DominicCobb said:

Shopping Maul said:

I think the difference here is the actual intentions of the filmmakers. For example if I have a problem with the Ewoks, a quick online search will show that Lucas was referencing the Vietnam war. Okay, that might not change my mind, but I can at least see where he was coming from and get a sense of the intention.

So with Rey I might be perplexed at her power levels and how that might clash with my sense of SW canon. If I hit Google what I’ll find is Kathleen Kennedy banging on about ‘strong female characters’. Ewoks as a Vietnam allegory makes sense to me. Palpatine as Nixon makes sense to me. Rey being superwoman because ‘strong female characters’ is nonsense. That’s not storytelling being inspired by politics. That’s politics subsuming storytelling.

I think you’re misunderstanding the phrase and what it means. I’d also be curious to see those Kennedy quotes as I’m not sure what you’re referring too.

OutboundFlight said:

When Rey and Kylo face off for a round two of TLJ, Rey wins off-screen. We have one character effortlessly beating the other twice,

I don’t have a problem with the rest of your post (some of it I agree, some agree to disagree), but this is just plain inaccurate. Rey does not win off screen. They come to a draw with the lightsaber and she runs away while Kylo’s knocked out. That’s not her “beating” him. As for the other win, it clearly was not “effortless,” as she was on the ropes before she used the force.

Although she may have not knocked Kylo out, she was the first one to wake up (or she never said awake the whole time). Regardless Rey was stronger and was awake where Kylo was knocked out. Had she wanted she could have killed him right then and there (and I wonder why the story didn’t lean in on this). That sounds to me like beating.

That’s, frankly, insane. We’re now equating “waking up first” and “not murdering someone in cold blood” with “effortlessly beating someone in battle”? Just like Rey, Luke ran away from Vader in ESB - and he wasn’t even knocked out! Does that mean Luke beat him?

This really gets down to the meat of what we were talking about earlier, in regards to incorrectly evaluating Rey by mere action film standards. Rey’s goal in the throne room was not to kill Kylo. Her goal was to turn him to her side. She didn’t win at all, she literally lost.

You admit that the assumed genre of the movie has a lot to do with whether Rey has won or lost in this scene, yet in the same breath you say that the action genre interpretation is ‘insane’ - a genre that is heavily infused into Star Wars DNA.

From the pure drama or romantic drama interpretation, Rey has definitely lost this fight.
From the pure action interpretation, Rey has at least matched Kylo if not bested him in her recovery.

At the very least, you must admit that the scene sends mixed messages depending on interpretation.

No. Even if this were an action movie the interpretation would be wrong. Rey’s goal is not to kill Kylo, action movie or not. The issue is not genre but people assuming things about the genre - in this case that conflicts are only about who physically bests the other, or that Rey’s motivation is to kill Kylo because that’s the common action hero motivation.

Even in that regard, it’s weird to come away saying that the film is showing Rey is stronger when I feel like the scene is trying really hard to say that they’re perfectly matched? Having the physical capacity to not be knocked out as long is not particularly remarkable, and likely happens off screen so that it isn’t remarked upon. The fact that fans have read into this that she’s beaten Kylo again is what’s insane to me when the film seems to be working to actively not suggest this.

As for “mixed messages,” A scene can accomplish multiple things. Just because Rey has failed her mission doesn’t mean it’s a mixed message that she didn’t also get beat up by Kylo.

BTW, there is no comparison to Luke in ESB. Luke was battered, literally disarmed, beaten, and emotionally shattered. He survived by the thinnest of margins and the scars of the battle, both literal and emotional, dominated the rest of the movie and beyond. Rey is back to her peppy self literally the next time we see her, lending credence to the pure action interpretation of the confrontation.

Kylo’s just fine too, no? Even though he’s been supposedly beaten? The “first” time Rey beat him, he seemed pretty fucked up. Why not this time?

The comparison isn’t to say that they’re exactly the same, just to show why the specific claim of “getting away = beating” is silly. But there is some validity to the comparison. It’s hard to imagine Rey’s failure with Kylo won’t be a part of IX (as for her part in the final scenes of TLJ, there was certainly room for improvement). On the other side of things, let’s not forget Luke essentially did beat Vader. Vader’s mission was to capture Luke and turn him to the dark side, and he failed on both accounts (with the consolation being knocking Luke down a peg and successfully putting some existential doubt in his head).

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Darth Muffy said:

Mary Sue Video

This video best explains the Mary Sue issue not just for StarWars but for other future films.

So I’ve just got around to watching the video and I could not agree more with the entirety of it. However Darth Muffy, though you obviously agreed with the video I think the title of this thread and claiming it to best explain the Mary Sue issue is a misnomer and does a disservice to the video and Thor himself in creating prejudice against him and the video before it is even viewed as people opposed to the term are already in a mindset out of the gate to discount what is being said and view it in a harsh light before even hearing what Thor has to say and people who think Rey is a Mary Sue enter looking for validation and even circle jerking for some who just want to throw around “Rey is such a Mary Sue!” in the comments and have it repeated back to them.

I think Thor says it best himself in that whether you think Rey is one or not, it has no doubt caused the term to surface and feature prominently in discussions around the ST and this would not have happened if there weren’t comparable issues with the character of Rey.

On another note, watching this video has actually answered a question I’ve had for a number of weeks now since I started noticing a growing number of videos on some apparent issue with there being a female lead in Captain Marvel, though I haven’t bothered watching them as I thought how can they have any credence or credibility when the movie isn’t even out yet and there’s nothing in the trailers to suggest as such. It’s probably why I gave this video a pass initially as it had an image of Captain Marvel and Rey together and thought maybe Thor was jumping on the same bandwagon, where in fact he’s actually just addressing the issue that is creating the other videos of which a number are definitely clickbait-esque. Thor has definitely hit the nail on the head though that by creating such a poor female character in Rey, it is having a flow on detrimental affect on other female characters even if it isn’t justified outside of ignorance and cashing in on the drama created out of it.

Anyway, having watched the video now (twice actually as I didn’t get a chance to come here and post until many hours after first watching the video so I’ve watched it again for a refresher) I find myself having no need to change what I’ve already said so far in this thread. If anything, what I said is bolstered by what Thor has said. Because everything makes perfect sense and seems in character for Ripley in Aliens I’m never taken out of the movie to ponder why and start casting a critical eye as to why and start joining pieces together to come to the conclusion that there is a possible pro-woman message being pushed. It’s not until it was mentioned here in this very thread…

Voss Caltrez said:
Also, the character of Ripley could also be accused of “pushing an agenda” since the lone voice of reason is a woman, arguing against a majority of stupid men.

…that I’ve ever looked at it in that perspective and while I can definitely see that as a possibility, it is hardly concrete proof though that it was specifically intended vs TLJ being one step away a number of times from literally having an actor turn to the camera and tell you “animal cruelty is bad”, “slavery is bad”, “capitalism is bad”, “woman dont need men to tell them what to do”, etc. It’s one thing to recognise and witness capitalism in action within the context of the story being told, it’s another for the characters to explain to you via the 4th wall why it’s bad.

Val

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Valheru_84 said:

TLJ being one step away a number of times from literally having an actor turn to the camera and tell you “animal cruelty is bad”, “slavery is bad”, “capitalism is bad”, “woman dont need men to tell them what to do”, etc. It’s one thing to recognise and witness capitalism in action within the context of the story being told, it’s another for the characters to explain to you via the 4th wall why it’s bad.

I’m an effort to be more reasonable with you, I’d be interested to hear you explain this opinion beyond the hyperbole. As is I can’t figure what the basis in the film is for any of these statements.

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Voss Caltrez said:
You make some excellent points here too.
I thought Del Toro’s character challenging Rose and Finn’s belief that it’s not only the New Order that making the weapons dealers rich but also the Resistance was showing that the issue isn’t black and white. But yes, I think you’re argument that a more subtle and complex approach to these topics make usually make for a better story and discussion.

Definitely a good example of what I am talking about.

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OutboundFlight said:

I think the difference between Star Wars and Alien is all in the tone.

Alien is established, from the outset, as a dark film. It’s horror! The characters make bad choices and we fear with them. Darker films like this often critique social issues as it fits the tone. So Alien’s critique on capitalism works.

Star Wars, on the other hand, is not a dark film. It’s fun escapism. This is why so many call Canto Bight “not my Star Wars” because they want an timeless story separate from the real world.

That is not to demean either approach. Critiques on our society are often well called for while timeless tales are a lot of fun to watch.

The interesting thing about the Last Jedi is it tries to renounce it’s escapist nature. I don’t really think doing this on the 8th episode of a 9 part saga is a good idea, but Rian certainly tried to make TLJ into a “dark film”- Canto Bight and Luke are some examples. You know, I’d be willing to see how a Dark TLJ turned out.

Unfortunately Rian opened the film with a yo mamma joke, instantly eliminating any chance of a darker tone. What we have now is a confused tonal mess.

This is a great post with some insightful points and perspectives that help to explain the why TLJ is criticised and rejected by many fans, rather than constantly denying there are no issues with the film and (a great) many people are simply making stuff up because of assumed ulterior motives of those raising the points in discussion.

Val

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DominicCobb said:

Shopping Maul said:

I only hope that James Cameron made it plain that anyone who had issues with the political/social overtones in Aliens was a toxic manbaby that couldn’t handle strong motherhood figures…

That actually does sounds like something he would do… but why do assume you’re making a sarcastic comment? I’m not aware of anyone behind TLJ doing that.

Now THIS is pretending…(or you’re the perfect example of head in the sand / living under a rock / etc.)

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Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:

Shopping Maul said:

I only hope that James Cameron made it plain that anyone who had issues with the political/social overtones in Aliens was a toxic manbaby that couldn’t handle strong motherhood figures…

That actually does sounds like something he would do… but why do assume you’re making a sarcastic comment? I’m not aware of anyone behind TLJ doing that.

Now THIS is pretending…(or you’re the perfect example of head in the sand / living under a rock / etc.)

I’m open to examples if you have them.

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Darth Muffy said:

So we all agree then that we need James Cameron as producer for Episode X 😎

Also to anyone who thinks Aliens has just a single female charactor in a sea of dumb male soldiers…

not so dumb

I was trying to think of how to fit Vasquez into one of my replies earlier and then promptly forgot to mention her 😛

She is another example of a well written female character amongst male characters that aren’t written just to elevate the female character. She is physically strong and mentally tough in the grunt sense that she can mix with and won’t be intimidated by her fellow male Colonial Marines. She isn’t portrayed as all that intelligent which does stereotype her somewhat into the Army role but I think it helps cement her as one of them, as probably the only properly intelligent one out of the lot is Hicks who is in a leadership role because of the capability it lends him.

In today’s movie making climate I doubt many writer or director would dare to portray her in that manner. Instead she would be smarter than all her fellow marines and her next in command and would often have to explain things on camera to the dim-witted males. There would also be a scene where it showed her in peril and one of the males would attempt to save her only to show her sorting it out herself in the end and exclaiming she doesn’t need his help.

Val

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RogueLeader said:
If Rey was such a badly written female character, you would think there would be a more vocal concern from the female fan communities who might want better representation, so you would assume you would hear more female fans complaining about it than male fans. But it seems like it is predominantly male fans that are the most vocal regarding this issue, does it not?

I dunno. Just curious to me. I just feel like men and women do have unconscious biases regarding the opposite sex that affect the way we perceive characters of one gender compared to the other (and by extension people in real life). It is just might not be immediately clear to us, and difficult for us to articulate.

I think there’s definitely some truth in what you say above and probably comes down to how we similarly often can’t see faults within ourselves until someone offers a 3rd person perspective that gives you the same window to look at yourself through. I think to a lesser extent, we sometimes don’t see or don’t find fault with some of the shortcomings of your own sex but will willingly point them out when present in the other.

As to why there is not as many females voicing the same concerns - I think the above is part of it but also just because on pure numbers, females would still be in the minority of the Star Wars audience and a far greater minority again of those that are interested and invested as much to bother saying anything about the matter.

Val

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Shopping Maul said:

RogueLeader said:

I understand you but it is just weird to me how, generally, guys seem to complain that she is a Mary Sue much more than female fans of the movies. Like I said, generally. I’m sure someone could pull up some YouTube videos of women saying she is a Mary Sue to try to refute my opinion, but even then if you were to flip it around, you would probably have more men saying she isn’t a Mary Sue than women saying she is a Mary Sue.

The Mary Sue claims just seem strangely disproportionate. Yeah, there might be more male Star Wars fan than women, but even if you were to take that into account it still seems like it would be disproportionate on average.

Like I’ve already said, that’s not saying that men who think that are sexist. I AM NOT SAYING THAT. I just think it is worth exploring why a lot of guys seem hung up on it when more female fans seem to accept/enjoy her character without this issue.

If Rey was such a badly written female character, you would think there would be a more vocal concern from the female fan communities who might want better representation, so you would assume you would hear more female fans complaining about it than male fans. But it seems like it is predominantly male fans that are the most vocal regarding this issue, does it not?

I dunno. Just curious to me. I just feel like men and women do have unconscious biases regarding the opposite sex that affect the way we perceive characters of one gender compared to the other (and by extension people in real life). It is just might not be immediately clear to us, and difficult for us to articulate.

This is such an interesting question. I’m only guessing here, but I wonder if a lot of it has to do with a large percentage of the older fanbase being male (given that Lucas was supposedly aiming the films at 12 year-old boys). I don’t have the stats obviously, but it would make sense that a long-term fanbase would be the ones most heavily invested in matters of canon and consistency. It logically follows that a new fanbase (with more females in it) would be more inclined to see the entire thing through fresh eyes and with less dogged adherence to what has gone before. Plus they (the newer female audience) might be inclined to simply enjoy the female representation in the films without being too concerned with the minutiae of Force abilities and such, while the old guard are more obsessed with what has been previously established (in their own minds as much as official canon).

I stress this is mere speculation!

Makes sense and partly echoes what I just said myself.

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NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

DominicCobb said:

Shopping Maul said:

I think the difference here is the actual intentions of the filmmakers. For example if I have a problem with the Ewoks, a quick online search will show that Lucas was referencing the Vietnam war. Okay, that might not change my mind, but I can at least see where he was coming from and get a sense of the intention.

So with Rey I might be perplexed at her power levels and how that might clash with my sense of SW canon. If I hit Google what I’ll find is Kathleen Kennedy banging on about ‘strong female characters’. Ewoks as a Vietnam allegory makes sense to me. Palpatine as Nixon makes sense to me. Rey being superwoman because ‘strong female characters’ is nonsense. That’s not storytelling being inspired by politics. That’s politics subsuming storytelling.

I think you’re misunderstanding the phrase and what it means. I’d also be curious to see those Kennedy quotes as I’m not sure what you’re referring too.

OutboundFlight said:

When Rey and Kylo face off for a round two of TLJ, Rey wins off-screen. We have one character effortlessly beating the other twice,

I don’t have a problem with the rest of your post (some of it I agree, some agree to disagree), but this is just plain inaccurate. Rey does not win off screen. They come to a draw with the lightsaber and she runs away while Kylo’s knocked out. That’s not her “beating” him. As for the other win, it clearly was not “effortless,” as she was on the ropes before she used the force.

Although she may have not knocked Kylo out, she was the first one to wake up (or she never said awake the whole time). Regardless Rey was stronger and was awake where Kylo was knocked out. Had she wanted she could have killed him right then and there (and I wonder why the story didn’t lean in on this). That sounds to me like beating.

That’s, frankly, insane. We’re now equating “waking up first” and “not murdering someone in cold blood” with “effortlessly beating someone in battle”? Just like Rey, Luke ran away from Vader in ESB - and he wasn’t even knocked out! Does that mean Luke beat him?

This really gets down to the meat of what we were talking about earlier, in regards to incorrectly evaluating Rey by mere action film standards. Rey’s goal in the throne room was not to kill Kylo. Her goal was to turn him to her side. She didn’t win at all, she literally lost.

You admit that the assumed genre of the movie has a lot to do with whether Rey has won or lost in this scene, yet in the same breath you say that the action genre interpretation is ‘insane’ - a genre that is heavily infused into Star Wars DNA.

From the pure drama or romantic drama interpretation, Rey has definitely lost this fight.
From the pure action interpretation, Rey has at least matched Kylo if not bested him in her recovery.

At the very least, you must admit that the scene sends mixed messages depending on interpretation.

BTW, there is no comparison to Luke in ESB. Luke was battered, literally disarmed, beaten, and emotionally shattered. He survived by the thinnest of margins and the scars of the battle, both literal and emotional, dominated the rest of the movie and beyond. Rey is back to her peppy self literally the next time we see her, lending credence to the pure action interpretation of the confrontation.

Thanks for a voice of reason and logic in this “insane” discussion though despite Rey winning both encounters I think the use of “effortlessly” was an inaccurate term in both cases.

Rey is definitely the winner though in TLJ. They both essentially tie in trying to take Anakin’s lightsaber but it is Rey’s assistance that gets Kylo out of his headlock and Rey gets away in the end. Once it becomes clear to Kylo that Rey won’t join him, you have to assume that he would take her prisoner again, maybe even kill her and if not straight away then eventually. She was in the belly of the beast where her enemy wanted her to join him or be taken out of the equation, so Rey managing to escape by stealing a ship to return and help the Resistance, taking out many Tie fighters and directly affecting the battle in favour of the Resistance I would 100% consider her as winning against Kylo.

Val

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DominicCobb said:

Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:

Shopping Maul said:

I only hope that James Cameron made it plain that anyone who had issues with the political/social overtones in Aliens was a toxic manbaby that couldn’t handle strong motherhood figures…

That actually does sounds like something he would do… but why do assume you’re making a sarcastic comment? I’m not aware of anyone behind TLJ doing that.

Now THIS is pretending…(or you’re the perfect example of head in the sand / living under a rock / etc.)

I’m open to examples if you have them.

Dom, drop the pretence. I know that you know very well from our past discussions and the threads they occurred in, what I and Maul refer to and the only reason I am replying in this case is so that people are aware of the disingenuous game you are playing here.

I can only assume that you are trying to goad me into replying now so that you can demonstrate your powers of “intelligent discussion” in arguing why the hundreds of examples out there that anyone can find with minimal effort are not correct, misunderstood or do not matter due to your infallible opinion.

I will not be drawn into an argument with you which I know will never be resolved, likely need moderation and therefore is pointless. Instead I will get back to discussing the content covered in the video and the other discussion points I’ve already replied to above.

Val

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Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:

Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:

Shopping Maul said:

I only hope that James Cameron made it plain that anyone who had issues with the political/social overtones in Aliens was a toxic manbaby that couldn’t handle strong motherhood figures…

That actually does sounds like something he would do… but why do assume you’re making a sarcastic comment? I’m not aware of anyone behind TLJ doing that.

Now THIS is pretending…(or you’re the perfect example of head in the sand / living under a rock / etc.)

I’m open to examples if you have them.

Dom, drop the pretence. I know that you know very well from our past discussions and the threads they occurred in, what I and Maul refer to and the only reason I am replying in this case is so that people are aware of the disingenuous game you are playing here.

I can only assume that you are trying to goad me into replying now so that you can demonstrate your powers of “intelligent discussion” in arguing why the hundreds of examples out there that anyone can find with minimal effort are not correct, misunderstood or do not matter due to your infallible opinion.

I will not be drawn into an argument with you which I know will never be resolved, likely need moderation and therefore is pointless. Instead I will get back to discussing the content covered in the video and the other discussion points I’ve already replied to above.

Val

Hey man, if you were worried about looking unintelligent, you shouldn’t have responded to me. It’s not my fault you’re referring to examples that don’t exist.

https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/1004783228614406144?s=20
https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/1004073917990879233?s=20
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/06/rian-johnson-response-kelly-marie-tran-instagram/amp
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Rian+Johnson+man+baby+quote

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Can we please get back to discussing content? These personal beefs and insults are really tiring to read. Thank you!

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DrDre said:

Can we please get back to discussing content? These personal beefs and insults are really tiring to read. Thank you!

Clap

Well said DrDre its a bit tricky sifting through trying to read genuine replies, we’re all intelligent enough here to give a responce without it turning into a Youtube comments screen. 😋

Valheru_84 said:

Darth Muffy said:

Mary Sue Video

This video best explains the Mary Sue issue not just for StarWars but for other future films.

So I’ve just got around to watching the video and I could not agree more with the entirety of it. However Darth Muffy, though you obviously agreed with the video I think the title of this thread and claiming it to best explain the Mary Sue issue is a misnomer and does a disservice to the video and Thor himself in creating prejudice against him and the video before it is even viewed as people opposed to the term are already in a mindset out of the gate to discount what is being said and view it in a harsh light before even hearing what Thor has to say and people who think Rey is a Mary Sue enter looking for validation and even circle jerking for some who just want to throw around “Rey is such a Mary Sue!” in the comments and have it repeated back to them.

I understand the term Mary Sue means different things to different people and can be wrongly used when validating the new films but for this thread if you could please watch the video like Valheru now has explaining that term used within this particular discussion as I except Rey to be a Mary Sue within the context outlined in the video but I personally still also very much like Force Awakens & Last Jedi as well.

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Darth Muffy said:
I understand the term Mary Sue means different things to different people and can be wrongly used when validating the new films but for this thread if you could please watch the video like Valheru now has explaining that term used within this particular discussion as I except Rey to be a Mary Sue within the context outlined in the video but I personally still also very much like Force Awakens & Last Jedi as well.

Hey Darth Muffy, a couple of things you said above don’t quite make sense, so just confirming for clarification that my below explanation is what you refer to and also that you meant “I accept Rey to be a Mary Sue within the context outlined in the video” is what you intended to say instead of “except”?

Valheru_84 said:
I think Thor says it best himself in that whether you think Rey is one or not, it has no doubt caused the term to surface and feature prominently in discussions around the ST and this would not have happened if there weren’t comparable issues with the character of Rey.

Val

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Ugh, another video that selectively attempts to make logical points whilst managing to ignore facts established onscreen… great. The title ‘Rey and the sad devolution of the female character’ - does the video highlight or categorise the devolution of female characters? It seems not - it certainly didn’t within the first 6 and bit minutes of the video…

Hasn’t this circular and repetitive type of attempting to place an agenda as fact been done to death in both the TLJ threads? It needed a new thread for a further continuation of the same old endless stuff?
 

Oh well.

5.30 into the video - TLJ’s The Throne Room… the youtuber says ‘and what further compounds the unbelievable nature of this character is that Rey gets herself out of this problem all by herself. She manages to best Snoke’s guards - guards that are no doubt some of the best, most elite warriors, in the Galaxy - clearly trained to fight force sensitive beings, since they have weapons designed to work against lightsabers. Not to mention they get the best of Kylo Ren at one point which shows how skilled they must be. Rey however, wielding a lightsaber for the 2nd time in combat, is going toe-to-toe with them pretty well and only takes a small cut on the arm - even though about a week ago she was fighting off thugs on Jakku with a staff - which, mind you, is completely believable since she no doubt would have leanrt some level of self-defence to survive on such a harsh planet. How self-defence against thugs translates into besting the elite guards of the most powerful being in the galaxy… just a week later… is beyond me.’

^ ignoring the fact that has been made on many previous occasions that without Kylo to save her… Snoke could have easily killed her at any time he pleased otherwise - Snoke was literally playing with her and moving her around the room at will - and if not for Snoke’s over-confidence and Kylo’s play for power would have certainly died. Also ignoring since that last week on Jakku she now has knowledge and an understanding of The Force - (she is erm… literally The Force Awakening…) and has been shown on screen to have a strong ability to mimic the skills she sees or is subjected upon her - as well as also ‘letting The Force in’ during a fight against Kylo to which she was losing badly and on the back foot throughout before doing so. Rey has also had some tutelage and understanding of The Force from someone who also previously quickly became attuned to using The Force in a short a space of time. Not withstanding that Kylo takes the majority of guards out, and the two of them working together as a team enables them to extricate themselves out of the situation - whereas the guards seems to attack them individually (in the main). I’d also state at various points in the fight it didn’t look good for them - it doesn’t appear to be a ‘by the numbers’ or easy fight to win for either of them - and without teaming up and helping each other they seemingly could have easily lost to Snoke’s guards (not that the script demands anything else in the middle part of the Trilogy of which they are two of the big players in it 😉).

This is apparently ‘beyond’ the youtuber (not the script thing - but the rest of the above) - all of which occurred on screen and was somehow ignored - or maybe he has not realised what has actually happened?

And at this point (6 and a bit minutes in - half-way through the video)… after viewing far too many of these type of selectively done clickbait videos on TLJ I’ll stop there. I’ve wasted more than enough time watching these things (that’s not to say there are no good videos with logical and reasoned criticisms of Rey as a character out there - there are). This video certainly isn’t one of them.

‘Best explanation of the Mary Sue issue’? That must take place in the last 5 and bit minutes - though I don’t holdout much hope it does - more likely it’ll suggest something we’ve been told to expect but hasn’t happened in the eyes / satisfaction of the youtuber making this video - no doubt with a claim / mention of her being perfect / a Mary Sue - ignoring the events listed above amongst other shortcomings shown onscreen (including that without Kylo Ren turning against Snoke she’d likely be dead). If the ‘Best explanation of the Mary Sue issue’ didn’t take place in the last 5 and bit minutes… £$€s to the youtuber - a job well done for him.
 

Woah. Some Deja vu right there - seems like some of us have been here before… 😉

I think I’ll put a stop to that on my part and leave this thread - though fair play to many of the posts in here - made for some interesting reading, decent points of view and takes on events - though descended into the usual personal digs when posters started playing off vs each other - and no longer debated the actual points made. Shame that.
 

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here?
And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

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Hi Val,
yes to both.

Hi oojason,
Thanks for your lengthy views on this as always theres no right or wrong answer here.
I guess Yoda & Luke sum it up best when entering threads like this …

Whats in there

“We Are What They Grow Beyond” - Yoda


My Prefered Saga Viewing Preference:
Ep. III - Revenge of the Sith Special Edition (StankPac Edit) * Rogue One - A Star Wars Story (Gareth Edwards Original Version)
Ep. IV - A New Hope Despecialized Edition (Harmy Edit) * Ep. V - Empire Strikes Back Revisited (Adywan Edit)
Ep. VI - Return of The Jedi Despecialized Edition (Harmy Edit) * Ep. VII - The Force Awakens Restructured (Hal 9000 Edit)
Ep. VIII - The Last Jedi Legendary (Hal 9000 Edit)

💡 Save confusion & express your comments with Markdown Emojis here 💡

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Shopping Maul said:

I think this is a good attempt at explaining the ‘Mary Sue’ issue - and it’s short too!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2sar9BAyvU

I agree with his assessment. I also feel there’s a clash of creative choices in the ST regarding Rey. I liked Rey in TFA. She was self-reliant, and even if I felt she was generally just a little to good at everything, Daisy Ridley gave her a vulnurability, that made her endearing. Like many people out there, I expected a good explanation for her sudden Force abilities in TLJ, and thus conditionally accepted them. Except it never came. While the whole anyone can be a Jedi/Rey is a nobody angle seems like a good idea on paper, it doesn’t mesh well with the setup in TFA imo. The darkness rises and light to meet it explanation seems contrived, underdeveloped, and a cheap shortcut in Rey’s development, such that we can focus on Luke and Kylo, and have a ROTJ like throne room confrontation in the middle chapter, which sees Rey being evenly matched with Kylo, despite the fact that she only learned about the Force a few days earlier, and Luke has taught her very little, aside from telling her the Jedi suck. The explanation for her sudden rise in power is just too thin, making Kylo seem weak by comparison, and no attempt is made to make it fit into existing canon. Like the FO’s unlimited resources, and Snoke’s ascension, it’s just pulled out of thin air, and we’re supposed to be entertained enough to ignore the undercooked nature of these story developments. It seems even the creators realized this, when they introduced the idea of Rey downloading the know how from Kylo’s mind in the novel.

Author
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Absolutely bang on as usual Dre on all those points.

You much more concisely conveyed what I’ve spent a good hour trying to write but due to the time of the night / early morning, I’m mostly just sitting here unintentionally zoning out and trying to remember exactly my very clear reasoning and points that flashed through my brain earlier but essentially am getting no closer to finishing my post as the minutes fly by LOL.

In Arnie’s words - I’ll be back ;D

Val

Author
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Darth Muffy said:

Hi Val,
yes to both.

Hi oojason,
Thanks for your lengthy views on this as always theres no right or wrong answer here.
I guess Yoda & Luke sum it up best when entering threads like this …

Whats in there

Cheers man - I bring ‘just the facts, Sir/Ma’am’ 😉

btw - are you on TrekBBS too? Been trying to remember where I’d seen this video already discussed elsewhere - though couldn’t quite place it until I came across it on TBBS this morning.
 

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here?
And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

Author
Time

oojason said:
I bring ‘just the facts, Sir/Ma’am’

No just an opinion based on not even half the video.

To be continued tomorrow…(once I’ve had some sleep)

Author
Time

Valheru_84 said:

oojason said:
I bring ‘just the facts, Sir/Ma’am’

No just an opinion based on not even half the video.

To be continued tomorrow…(once I’ve had some sleep)

No mate, it won’t. I only came back in here to ask if Darth Muffy was a member on TrekBBS (I may know him/her on there) given the same topic discussed there.

Why you felt the need to misquote (or rather miss out the winky face and joke Dragnet reference), I don’t know - though given your abrasive attitude to members who have a different opinion than yourself with on here I don’t care.

You also missed the factual part of my earlier post 😉

Have a good 'un.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here?
And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

Author
Time

DrDre said:

Shopping Maul said:

I think this is a good attempt at explaining the ‘Mary Sue’ issue - and it’s short too!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2sar9BAyvU

I agree with his assessment. I also feel there’s a clash of creative choices in the ST regarding Rey. I liked Rey in TFA. She was self-reliant, and even if I felt she was generally just a little to good at everything, Daisy Ridley gave her a vulnurability, that made her endearing. Like many people out there, I expected a good explanation for her sudden Force abilities in TLJ, and thus conditionally accepted them. Except it never came. While the whole anyone can be a Jedi/Rey is a nobody angle seems like a good idea on paper, it doesn’t mesh well with the setup in TFA imo. The darkness rises and light to meet it explanation seems contrived, underdeveloped, and a cheap shortcut in Rey’s development, such that we can focus on Luke and Kylo, and have a ROTJ like throne room confrontation in the middle chapter, which sees Rey being evenly matched with Kylo, despite the fact that she only learned about the Force a few days earlier, and Luke has taught her very little, aside from telling her the Jedi suck. The explanation for her sudden rise in power is just too thin, making Kylo seem weak by comparison, and no attempt is made to make it fit into existing canon. Like the FO’s unlimited resources, and Snoke’s ascension, it’s just pulled out of thin air, and we’re supposed to be entertained enough to ignore the undercooked nature of these story developments. It seems even the creators realized this, when they introduced the idea of Rey downloading the know how from Kylo’s mind in the novel.

I was in exactly the same boat - I liked TFA (mostly) and was eager for the explanations that were sure to come (I even found myself defending the film - and Rey - online, so sure was I that an epic story had been crafted in advance here).

Then I read somewhere that Rian had absolute free reign with the next film, and I recall how uneasy that made me feel. I was like “well, not FREE reign, I mean there’s roadmap right…?”

I can’t for the life of me understand why these people didn’t think to write a story first!