That is fair. I personally like the idea that the students gathered around the ruined hut, thinking Ben killed their master, and started picking sides until someone struck first. Like you said, it doesn’t totally pin it on Ben.
Though if you went this direction, it would be nice if there was some hint that the Knights in TROS were the other students. Nothing really gives us that impression. No sign of force sensitivity, no lightsabers, no relevant dialogue, etc.
Yeah I don’t like the idea that a “frightened boy” proceeded to slaughter all of the other, innocent, students. Specially if he believed he attacked Luke in self defense. I’m sure that’s why Rian implied there was more to that story, even though we only hear Luke’s side of it. Hal trimmed the scenes of Anakin killing younglings precisely to avoid such a drastic turn and here he’d be doing the opposite. I always pictured something like the Craster’s Keep mutiny from GoT, where right after Jeor Mormont dies everyone has to pick a side and those who refuse to mutiny are killed by the mutineers.
And well, a lot of people assumed they were the KoR based on Luke’s words alone, simply because they follow Ren as their Leader, yeah they don’t use lightsabers and don’t show mastery of the Force, but they were just students and we don’t know for how long they trained. Ben had the “raw strenght” and the drive to be like his grandfather, which would be why he’d be picked as the Leader, while the rest aren’t really trying to be Sith. All headcannon, of course, and you can still take the “canon” answer if you prefer. Either way I think that line has a lot of value.
This might not be right for Legendary, but maybe a future edit could imply that somehow in one of the flashbacks.
Maybe when Ben uses the force to collapse the hut and it cuts to black, we could hear a few brief lines of overlapping dialogue from the other students arguing/fighting.
“He killed Master Luke!”
“Luke attacked him!”
“Murderer!”
“Traitor!”
“No!”
lightsaber ignites
Then it cuts back and Luke sees the aftermath.
Also, Nev had the idea of replacing Ben’s blue saber in the flashback with Anakin’s saber, which I think would fit pretty well with the idea of the KoR being Luke’s students. Maybe kyber crystals and lightsabers were really hard to find by the time Luke started training students, so none of his students ever built one. That’s why the KoR don’t use them. And maybe Kylo finally tried to build one, which explains the rough construction of his crossguard lightsaber.
I like the Craster’s Keep comparison. I never made that connection but I picture something like that too. Maybe sides were being formed way before that night, but when it finally happened, people had to choose sides quickly and then all hell broke loose.
Anyway, I still think Hal’s dialogue change is a valid way to go with it. It simplifies things. Raises less questions. It would be interesting if we could somehow imply Ben was defending himself, but I also don’t think Ben really cares to try and justify his actions to anyone at this point.
It’s a good tweak, for sure. Just neatens it up a little.
I like Ben’s saber being Anakin’s too, for the reasons Nev originally outlined, especially it adding weight to “that weapon belongs to me” and his Vader worship.
I’m also a fan of having Luke’s saber in the duel on Crait being Luke’s saber, which is green. I know it’s an illusion but using the Anakin saber which was just destroyed by Kylo Ren feels a little odd. And his green saber is the one he’d always used whilst training Jedi including Ben.
Wow, what a discussion! My intent with potentially changing that line was to “correct” an apparent implied story idea that appears to have been rejected by canon as things bore out following TLJ’s release. Not to flatten the story or make Ben seem worse. (Which is worse, slaughtering eight people and leading three to join Hitler’s SS or slaughtering eleven people?)
Also, consider the dramatic pause in the original versus this version:
“When I came to, the temple was burning. He’d vanished with a handful of my students…”
“Were the others okay?”
“… and slaughtered the rest.”
“No!”
Vs
“When I came to, the temple was burning. He’d vanished…”
“Was everyone okay?”
“…and slaughtered my students.”
“No!”
—-
Also, how would people feel about clipping Poe and Rey “meeting” at the end? I imagine people won’t like the idea, but wanted to see, because they are a couple feet apart for a whole scene in TFA. When I see that moment it makes me think, “The movie is making a point that they have not met before” more than “Oh I bet this goes somewhere.” If anything, their friendship I feel is better served to not highlight that it started right when we would have last seen them by the time of TROS.
Also, how would people feel about clipping Poe and Rey “meeting” at the end? I imagine people won’t like the idea, but wanted to see, because they are a couple feet apart for a whole scene in TFA. When I see that moment it makes me think, “The movie is making a point that they have not met before” more than “Oh I bet this goes somewhere.” If anything, their friendship I feel is better served to not highlight that it started right when we would have last seen them by the time of TROS.
I am all for this. The end of TFA implies at least a day or more passes before Rey leaves, enough time for her to assemble a whole new custom outfit. With that amount of time Poe wouldn’t seek out the person that his friend had been obsessed with and ultimately was injured defending?
And as you say, they’re standing right by each other during the meeting. The novelization of TFA even has a scene where they meet for the first time there. And then lastly, he’s there in the crowd to see her off.
Them meeting for the first time in TLJ never made any sense.
Which is worse, slaughtering eight people and leading three to join Hitler’s SS or slaughtering eleven people?
I think slaughtering everyone is markedly worse - rather that a fight breaking out in the midst of the confusion, right after Luke’s percieved betrayal of Ben, and him and the surviving students seeking the refuge of Snoke after the chaos, Luke’s percieved “betrayal” would be followed by Ben viciously taking revenge by single-handedly murdering everyone, that takes out any potential “gray” on Ben’s actions and the situation as a whole. In the other option Ben would not have killed everyone himself in a fit of rage, but rather taken a stance along those that sided in his favour after Luke “betrayed” him.
–
As for Rey & Poe meeting, I can see the thought behind it. And yeah, they could’ve met at the end of TFA… but they didn’t. What I mean is there was no scene in which they met in TFA, apart for standing next to each other for a second. That seems like something that should’ve been shown, if it happened, but by the end they come apart without such a scene. So the conclusion is that they didn’t meet, not formally. They might’ve catched a glimpse of each other (which is why Poe answers he knows who Rey is) but that was it. And of course they’re apart throughout all of TLJ, so it feels fitting to remind the audience that despite having followed these two characters for two whole movies, they havent really had a chance to hang out with each other until now.
Also this might be reading too much into it, but to me this scene sort of feels like a bookend to Rey’s adventure and struggle in the film - she believes she’s no one, Kylo tells her she has no place, but then when she’s finally reunited with the Resistance the first thing she hears is “I know [who you are]”. And it pairs up so well with the reinstated deleted Poe/Finn scenes: “It’s fine, you’re alright, you’re here, with us, where you belong”.
With the “slaughtered all students” thing, don’t forget that “Snoke already turned his heart.” This isn’t the genesis of Ben Solo becoming Kylo Ren inside, it’s the final straw that triggers his external actions. So, slaughtering everyone tracks fine to me. I always interpreted “the final thing (Luke) saw were the eyes of a frightened boy whose master had failed him” as more about Luke seeing his own failure reflected in the moment (and some of Ben’s true nature/motivations deep inside) than Kylo actually literally being a little kid afraid of Luke’s scary lightsaber.
“It’s like rhymetry. They poem.” - Leorge Gucas
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Yeah, Luke sensed darkness beyond what he had ever imagined, doesn’t mean “he was already Kylo Ren inside”. He would bring destruction, and pain, and death, and the end of everything I love because of what he would become, not what he already was.
To be clear I’m not saying that this change would make no sense, just that it would be worse than what’s there originally. That whole situation with Luke and Ben is meant to be complex and morally gray, immediately making Ben a mass murderer kinda undermines that. Again, I feel this is why Rian went out of his way to say he didn’t kill everyone, despite being on the scene where Luke tells the story of how one boy, an apprentice, turned against him and destroyed it all.
It seems like one way to bring TLJ into greater alignment with the two JJ Abrams installments would be to downplay the strength and dominance of the First Order.
TFA appears to establish the First Order as an Imperial remnant that has coalesced in part thanks to Snoke, and are not strong or prevalent enough to pose a threat obvious enough for the Senate to take actions. Instead, Leia has to take matters into her own hands. When Poe is taken aboard a star destroyer, he marvels as though he had not realized the First Order had such resources. They manage to build a doomsday device, which they are able to use to essentially blow up the New Republic capitol. It really seems like at the end of the movie the two major superpowers cut the head off the other, leaving a power vacuum.
TLJ charges out of the gate to suggest that the entire Republic was reduced to very little by the single act of destroying their capitol and fleet. The First Order, however, seems barely hurt at all, with legions to easily and quickly seize control of the galaxy. With ample huge ships and destroyers to spare to chase the meager Resistance. They seem to have plenty of resources and are elevated to Empire status, with the Resistance slipping into the role of “rebels” now.
TROS presents us with Kylo Ren as an erratic Supreme Leader who is compelled by the Final Order fleet presented by Palpatine, feeling that acquiring this resource would finally elevate them to the level of “a true empire.” The First Order appears to have a presence throughout the galaxy, with destroyers in place, though apparently spread thin in the effort.
Where is the New Republic post-TFA? Totally gone? Incapacitated but ready to reform? Surely post-TROS we won’t hear about a “New New Republic,” but reforming it with the same name.
So, here’s what I would like to imply about the First Order and Republic throughout the trilogy, most of which puts pressure on TLJ more than the other two:
The New Republic formed as one might expect and recall from the Legends continuity, following the overthrow of the Empire. The primary remnant of the Empire never died out, but coalesced in secret before starting to present themselves as the First Order. Snoke is evidently known to the galaxy at large, though not taken as a serious threat. The Republic government does not wish to get involved in fighting the First Order, despite Leia insisting that this must be done. The Republic pools their resources around their capitol planet, though these forces don’t affiliate with her ragtag Resistance group.
Throughout the events of TFA, including its revised opening crawl, the First Order presents its previously unrevealed might by destroying the Republic capitol. However, in the process their own military capitol is also destroyed. The film ends with an apparent vacuum of power or control, with both forces having suffered large losses.
When we go into TLJ, I’d like to imply or state that the loss of the Republic fleet has allowed the First Order the opportunity to strike into central or important systems to try to seize control. However, this is done through ruthless strikes rather than unleashing limitless resources to wear down any resistance. (They are lacking in resources as well!) However, they feel it is important to snuff out the organized Resistance that destroyed Starkiller Base, and perhaps prioritize this by sending most or all of their forces to do so. (Kylo says, “Get all our forces down to that Resistance base.” And Rey says that “the First Order will control all the major systems within weeks” but have not seized them already.) As the film concludes, the Resistance barely manages to escape, and the First Order continues their strikes against an undefended Republic.
Even though the plot of TROS throws a monkey wrench into this development no matter how you slice it and it’s tempting to just pretend it didn’t happen, we have to make it make sense. So, entering TROS we see that Kylo feels somewhat insecure in his rule and that the First Order is ruthlessly attacking planets that support the Resistance. Their rule is fledging, and has not set into a truly Imperial sense of rule. Disorder and chaos have erupted as citizens rebel, though not in an organized way. When the Empire took over, it was a turnover of an existing Republic structure. The First Order is an invading force that has had a rough time foisting itself on the populace. When Palpatine emerges with an “oh by the way here’s an enormous fleet” the First Order is in a position to gladly accept it. Dialogue paints them as in need of help, not yet having become “a true empire.” And by the time the galaxy learns Palpatine himself returned somehow, they amass to knock this bastard out for good, torching the First Order’s thinly-spread forces and presumably leaving room for the (New) Republic to recover and reestablish itself.
Soooo… what can be done to TLJ to help facilitate this narrative?
Well, the opening crawl is a great place to do some of this. I would imagine spelling out to a greater extent that it is only the lack of the Republic flee that allows the First Order to make calculated strikes to seize control of major systems. They aren’t the new Empire all of a sudden, though post a large threat.
Ideally, and this probably isn’t really all that possible, they wouldn’t suddenly call themselves rebels. (Not a huge deal.)
Make their forces smaller, or else imply that this is basically all of it. Snoke’s ship is comically large, I feel. If it appeared on its own in space shots, and not in the famous Holdo maneuver sequence, I’d suggest replacing it with a regular destroyer or something.
Any other ideas for realizing this vision? Perhaps it’s mostly just through a slight tweak to TLJ’s crawl.
I think that’s a good read on background subtext that’s already there - at least it’s what I inferred from watching the theatricals. I agree that TLJ is the weak link in the chain in this regard, however, I don’t think any of the actual events onscreen are the issue - it’s the crawl, which (I think accidentally) implies they’ve bum-rushed everywhere at once and overwhelmed the Galaxy (despite the fact that we can see the core of their remaining forces, which are chasing down a small handful of ships that keep outrunning them). I always interpreted the First Order as a military junta, so I changed the first paragraph of the crawl to spell it out:
The FIRST ORDER reigns. The New Republic has been decimated, and in this state of galactic confusion, Supreme Leader Snoke’s armies have seized key territories and taken military control of the galaxy.
“It’s like rhymetry. They poem.” - Leorge Gucas
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I don’t think the destruction of the Starkiller is comparable to the Hosnian system, it’s clear that the Starkiller is not the First Order’s capitol, but rather just a really big weapon. TFA and TRoS paint it as Hux’s pet project, while Snoke is off somewhere else. If anything, by it’s sheer size, Snoke’s destroyer seems more like a big mobile base of operations from which Snoke leads the First Order (I mean, that’s where his throne is), which paints the FO as a mobile armada with no main headquarters. TRoS also has Kylo Ren command from his own destroyer as well, though Ascendant adds Coruscant in the background to show that after TLJ the FO is actually triying to take proper rule over the galaxy.
Your restructure of TFA also helped show that the Hosnian destruction is a way bigger deal, painting the assault on the Starkiller as a failure despite getting blown up by the end. So the opening of TLJ makes sense, even if it’s a bit hyperbolic. The First Order reigns, not because they’ve taken over the galaxy in the 5 minutes between TFA & TLJ, but because, having decimated the peaceful Republic, they are now the most powerful faction at play, being much bigger than Leia’s covert Resistance. The part about Snoke deploying his “merciless legions” is the only bit that could be interpreted as the FO having a much wider range than what we see, but I think that bit is just meant to set up Snoke’s surprise attack on the Resistance fleet, the “legions” being all the ships, fighters, walkers and troops that chase after them. Still, perhaps “merciless legions” could be changed to something less grand to avoid confusion, such as “relentless forces”.
The fleet that chases down the Resistance isn’t necessairly all of the First Order. And likewise, despite Holdo saying they’re “the last of the Resistance”, in TRoS we see there were a few others, such as Snap Wexley, that weren’t part of the group that escaped in TLJ. But like I mentioned in the redux ideas thread, the chase and battle in TLJ really feels like the last stand for both factions. The fact Snoke himself comes out of hiding to lead the attack and the overkill of throwing his massive ship and fleet and walkers after the Resistance is enough to suggest that he’s channeling most of his resources to make sure they’re wiped out.
In fact, after Snoke learns Luke’s location he says they will go and destroy him “after the Rebels are gone” - if he had other “legions” taking over the galaxy he could’ve sent a fleet to wipe him out, instead it seems clear that his resources are focused on destroying the Resistance as his next step in achieving “military cotrol of the galaxy”. That line was removed from your edit, but still, it shows that the crawl was not meant to imply the FO had limitless resources all over the galaxy.
I don’t think it needs to be reinstated, it might disrupt the flow of the scene, but maybe:
https://streamable.com/595033
Yeah, I guess it’s pretty much all there. Just would be nice for it to be communicated more clearly in the films.
Well, at least in the future there’ll be some bit of what I still refer to as EU stuff someone could watch or read before heading into the ST. But, y’know….
If I do end up revising TLJ:L I’ll reinstate that line from Snoke as you have it (without the island remark), but it’s a minuscule tweak and I won’t make it on its own.
Also, it would be easy to trim out Rey and Poe’s little meetcute at the end of the movie. They do appear like four feet away from each other at the end of TFA. I can’t remember if this was ever considered.
For my part I always liked this mostly for Poe’s knowing “I know.” I doubt Rey would have introduced herself to him at the end of TFA with what she had going on, but she’s a big deal in the Resistance.
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Also, it would be easy to trim out Rey and Poe’s little meetcute at the end of the movie. They do appear like four feet away from each other at the end of TFA. I can’t remember if this was ever considered.
For my part I always liked this mostly for Poe’s knowing “I know.” I doubt Rey would have introduced herself to him at the end of TFA with what she had going on, but she’s a big deal in the Resistance.
I somehow felt like the argument between Rey and Poe at the beginning of TROS, where Finn needs to mediate, plays into this as well. Finn has an established relationship to both of them at this point, but Rey and Poe hadn’t had the chance to build a real friendship so far. So this quarrel is less a crack in their friendship, but more a result of them trying to figure out their working relationship.
Although I agree, when watching TLJ it feels a little bit weird to be reminded, that they haven’t met so far. But atleast in my headcanon the TROS conflict was kind of a payoff to this TLJ scene, so it somehow made sense.
I agree with a lot of Burbin’s takes. I’ve always been more of a TLJ apologist, so that’s how I’ve seen it.
But, I also think it is fair to try and find ways to clarifying things, since apparently these ideas didn’t completely register for a lot of the audience.
I can’t recall how your crawl is worded, but I think it wouldn’t be a bad idea to change the line, “The First Order reigns.” Yes, the film does state that they will have control of the major systems within weeks, so they are not reigning yet technically. But I feel like these two statements do add to the confusion.
I think a fun way to start the crawl would be with a line like, “Chaos reigns.” Then you could describe how both sides are scrambling to reorganize after the destruction of Hosnian and Starkiller Base. Or replace ‘reigns’ with another word. “The First Order invades.”
Also, I always felt that an angle they could’ve gone with would’ve been to explain that the galaxy at large might not know the Resistance managed to destroy Starkiller Base. So for all we know, the “major systems” might think the FO has a gun to their heads, so might just completely surrender at the threat of total obliteration. So the FO might be motivated to destroy the Resistance so that information can’t spread. It would explain how they would be able to take control so quickly without a major fleet. And then as the galaxy learns the truth post-TLJ, this makes it harder for the FO to maintain control.
On the other hand, this idea could take away from the general focus they have on hope/fear and its relation to Luke and the Jedi.
Regarding the Resistance referring to themselves as Rebels lines, I’m guessing the idea was that “Godspeed Rebels” was something the old rebels would say to each other, but it’s kinda weird since we never heard anyone say that. It would be pretty easy to take out the two instances this is said. I know there are other instances besides this though.
Lol, have that Resistance captain exclaim, “Goodnight, San Antonio!”
Maybe something more like this for the crawl:
The galaxy is in chaos. With the Republic decimated, Supreme Leader Snoke deploys his remaining troopers to seize military control of the galaxy.
Struggling for help in this void, General Leia Organa has sent Rey to find Jedi Master Luke Skywalker, certain that he will return and restore a spark of hope to the fight.
As the FIRST ORDER speeds toward the rebel base, the brave heroes mount a desperate escape, determined to restore order to the galaxy…
The Skywalker Saga:
I · II · III · IV · V · VI · VII · VIII · IX
This is the way.
The First Order rises. Having destroyed the capital of the New Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless forces to march across the galaxy.
Reeling from their failure to prevent the Starkiller atrocity, many in the Resistance now believe that only the return of Luke Skywalker can restore hope in the face of terror.
But first, they must survive. Anticipating swift retaliation from the First Order, the brave freedom fighters mount a desperate evacuation…
Co-author of STAR WARS: THE RISE OF SKYWALKER - THE TEAM DALE REWRITE
I really like “Chaos reigns!” or “The First Order rises.” I might actually change my own edit’s crawl to include one of them, if that’s alright with RL / Cadavra (depending on which one I lean towards).
“It’s like rhymetry. They poem.” - Leorge Gucas
TROS Novelisation: The Faraday Edit, TLJ: Stoic Edition, ROTS: The Faraday Nudge, ROTS Ultracut: Order 66, Kenobi: Faraday Cut, Godzilla Vs Megalon, Godzilla Vs Gigan, Godzilla: Final Wars, The Light Rises, Faraday Jr.'s Star Wars
Of course that’s fine! I really like Cadavra’s crawl as well (and DZ’s).
RogueLeader said:
I think a fun way to start the crawl would be with a line like, “Chaos reigns.” Then you could describe how both sides are scrambling to reorganize after the destruction of Hosnian and Starkiller Base. Or replace ‘reigns’ with another word. “The First Order invades.”
This just reminded me of an opening line I had always wanted to use in my hypothetical Star Wars crawl: “War has torn the galaxy asunder.”
Regarding the Resistance referring to themselves as Rebels lines, I’m guessing the idea was that “Godspeed Rebels” was something the old rebels would say to each other, but it’s kinda weird since we never heard anyone say that. It would be pretty easy to take out the two instances this is said. I know there are other instances besides this though.
Hal could always sneak in a fan voiced line during ROTJ’s Battle of Endor of somebody yelling that (or in any of the pre-ST, post-Prequel movies really). lol
[A power vacuum is here.] Having decimated the New Republic capital and military, Supreme Leader Snoke presses his advantage to seize control of the galaxy’s central star systems.
Reeling from their failure to prevent the Starkiller atrocity, many allies of General Leia Organa’s RESISTANCE fear only the return of Jedi Master Luke Skywalker can restore a spark of hope to the fight.
But the Resistance has been exposed. As the First Order speeds toward the rebel base, the brave heroes mount a desperate escape…