And there was the whole problem of Lucas writing in the dialogue “The Sith have been extinct for a millennium.” I don’t think anyone was guessing it had been 1,000 freaking years of no conflict with dark side users…it’s really a stretch to portray it like that already. If Ki-Adi had said “The Sith have been extinct for over 100 years” it just would have been more interesting and a better way to set events for the EU.
I will tell you. They should hire a group of very talented writers that write an outline for every upcoming in-universe spinoff, movie, tv and animation series for the next 6-10 years and stick to the plan and stick with continuity.
The fact that Star Wars has been like a badly-written fanfiction novel with continuity holes and “fill in the blanks”, by 40 different directors and writers with completely different goals and backgrounds with total disregard for what came before or what is to come, is one of the main reasons i struggle to take anything - especially in this day and age - from Star Wars seriously.
There are about 10-50 retcons a year just in the live action stuff alone, not to mention that they hire people with completely different agendas and lacklusters movie backgrounds; often not focused on the story aspect but more on how they look in the eyes of Hollywood, is a core problem and a core issue in crafting horrible inconsistencies in both the writing and the visual styles. Star Wars just completely lacks the feeling of being a real place somewhere (WHAT? ITS NOT?) where decisions, characters and deaths (!) matter.
Every single year a novel or a comic book is written to explain away bad writing or things that didn’t work. Every single year a big thing is retconned from the main stories. Every single year a show is either cancelled or the people behind it fired. Every single year they switch out a director for someone “fresh and new and exciting” that’s - to be frank - has maybe only helmed a friggin documentary or a children’s movie before.
Disney Star Wars to me, and my friends,- looking outwards and in, looks to us as a nine-year old kid writing a fanfiction for h*r friend - and when the show is somehow picked up by a serious network, the dad tries to fill in the thousand blanks and the confusing dialogue in a very limited timeframe. It’s just… chaos… anarchy.
Simply put; taking modern Star Wars seriously is like trying to hold in a laugh when you’ve already got the giggles.
How to fix? Take what came before seriously and respectfully and treat what you want to write for the future in the same regard. When you helm something as large as this you need to write OUTLINES and focus on the CONTINUITY of not just the writing, characters and the visual style but also in who you hire that can honor what came before and put all of this as an overarching narrative for all upcoming projects (in live-action at least, where the main public’s eyes are resting).
WHAT HAVE I DONE?
The Ancient Lore
Kenobi: A Star Wars Story
Harry Potter Revisited
Game of Thrones Film Edits
Titanic Restructured
… and more.
What if The Plan™ is bad? Then you’re just recreating the same shit again when the course inevitably needs to be “corrected”. Well easy, they just have to Be Good™, right? The irony of “commitment” being the only quantifiable thing in this pitch is that people were soo happy The Acolyte was never given the opportunity to find its legs.
Either way, with Chapek’s ousting, they’ve already decided to slow down! We are years behind in terms of decision making. There is only one Star Wars show coming out next year, and after that, the only somewhat sure thing we have is Filoni right now building towards an Heir to The Empire movie.
So they literally came to the same conclusion, and I know everyone’s still going to hate it. The problem with making this out to be a no-brainer “just find talent” thing is that the suits agree with you! But what does that mean, really? It means The Mandalorian and The Clone Wars was financially successful and uncontroversial, “proven” in this franchise.
anyway Andor >> literally all of Star Wars, the Michael Clayton director doing Star Wars is the kind of thing I’m going to miss in this bleak future
not a Jedi apologist or a Jedi hater but a secret third thing
They just need to pick the ideas and elements that worked before and expand them. For example the best episode of the Mandalorian was the Wages of Fear/Sorcerer fuel transport depot story. A tight action set piece followed by a decent character moment. Instead of muddying the waters with yet more Jedi nonsense and failed attempts to add nuance or new dimensions to the Force, just start with classic movie homage. They did the Dam Busters, so they can do Battle of Britain. Or Cross of Iron. Or Kelly’s Heroes. Or anything. Star Wars itself was always a ‘steal from the best’ situation after all.
They just need to pick the ideas and elements that worked before and expand them. For example the best episode of the Mandalorian was the Wages of Fear/Sorcerer fuel transport depot story. A tight action set piece followed by a decent character moment. Instead of muddying the waters with yet more Jedi nonsense and failed attempts to add nuance or new dimensions to the Force, just start with classic movie homage. They did the Dam Busters, so they can do Battle of Britain. Or Cross of Iron. Or Kelly’s Heroes. Or anything. Star Wars itself was always a ‘steal from the best’ situation after all.
lol every time they do this they remake Seven Samurai/Magnificent Seven again or they claim they’re doing “Rashomon.” Even in Star Wars Visions, one of the episodes was remaking The Hidden Fortress even though that’s already the original movie.
Speaking of the influence of Japanese / samurai cinema on Star Wars, something mildly interesting is how the creators of the FX show Shogun have cited Star Wars as a resource. It’s fun how a modern samurai show has wrapped back around to taking influence from Star Wars. A big one is the font used to translate the Japanese:
To the point that I’m pretty sure The Mandalorian uses the same one.
They’ve also cited Obi-Wan’s ANH look as the influence for Toranaga’s look (as a send up to Toshiro Mifune being Lucas’ first choice for Obi-Wan), and took inspiration from Lando’s betrayal at Cloud City for [SPOILER BELOW]
Saeki’s betrayal in episode 7.
RE: “Good talent”, I’ve been thinking about how transparently the process of finding creatives has been to this point.
NOT that I want Justin Marks and Rachel Kondo of Shogun to be saddled to Star Wars, but I think there’s no way their names haven’t been floated now re: potential helmers of something in the future. Shogun got great reception for FX/Disney - they’re clearly fans of Star Wars - and I think there’s a path forward there if after Andor, LFL wants to continue pursuing a prestige TV audience. Still, I am interested in the second season of Shogun (even if they’ve run through the source material) and would prefer they stick with what they’re doing.
(Counterpart is another really great show Marks did. I think Andor fans would really like it, it’s also a kinda sci-fi spy thriller.)
I just think “good talent” is hard to quantify, let alone for execs that only follow the money and recent successes. Obviously you can have someone with Tony Gilroy’s prestige and cache as a sure bet (not to mention that writer’s room and all its weight), but would other esteemed industry veterans really want to do it? That in itself was already such an odd serendipity.
not a Jedi apologist or a Jedi hater but a secret third thing
Interesting, what I saw of the remake of Shogun had those standard ugly Disney Plus subtitles, wonder if the FX version was different.
They just need to pick the ideas and elements that worked before and expand them. For example the best episode of the Mandalorian was the Wages of Fear/Sorcerer fuel transport depot story. A tight action set piece followed by a decent character moment. Instead of muddying the waters with yet more Jedi nonsense and failed attempts to add nuance or new dimensions to the Force, just start with classic movie homage. They did the Dam Busters, so they can do Battle of Britain. Or Cross of Iron. Or Kelly’s Heroes. Or anything. Star Wars itself was always a ‘steal from the best’ situation after all.
lol every time they do this they remake Seven Samurai/Magnificent Seven again or they claim they’re doing “Rashomon.” Even in Star Wars Visions, one of the episodes was remaking The Hidden Fortress even though that’s already the original movie.
Yeah but maybe they can do it and make a decent story too? Actually watching real films and having a passion for them is what brings out the best storytellers after all. Though the handful of minutes in SW that resemble Kurosawa are pretty few and far between, it’s hardly a Fistful of Dollars.
Yeah, I think on streaming it’s not burned-in, using the software’s default subtitles for the benefit of anyone watching on a phone.
not a Jedi apologist or a Jedi hater but a secret third thing
To really fix Star Wars, all they need to do is make it better. It’s like, so obvious.
Seriously though, from my perspective, Star Wars went off the rails in 1999, so the Disney-era doesn’t seem so catastrophic to me - just piling more shit on top of existing shit.
At this point, all I can say is that Andor was an outlier of awesomeness. Point at it and tell Disney “yeah that’s pretty good, just keep doing that”.
Best way to fix SW is to build a time machine, travel back in time to any date between the release of TESB and the release of the 97SE, kidnap George Lucas, and drop him off on a deserted island.
Gods for some, miniature libertarian socialist flags for others.
No more Andor…
So, now that Andor has finished (with all its compelling high quality storytelling and worldbuilding)… what now?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rFiY5UUVw8 - a 30 minute video from the ScreenCrush youtube channel.
Note: the above video contains major spoilers for Andor 2x10, 2x11 & 2x12 (the final arc of Andor: Season 2).
The blurb: ‘Let’s dive deep into “Andor” and discuss what makes it stand out among other Star Wars TV shows. We’ll explore the show’s compelling themes, character-driven narrative, and production quality. Comparing “Andor” to shows like “The Book of Boba Fett” and “Ahsoka,” we examine why “Andor” succeeds in creating a powerful and engaging story. Join us as we analyze the differences in storytelling approaches and what lessons Lucasfilm can learn moving forward.’
^ Yeah, the above video, insightful as it is, is really an excuse for a bump to this quality thread (and engaging OP by Acbagel)…
Also, something Tony Gilroy said - to his own writers - for Andor…
"A lot of times when you’re working on IP storytelling your impulse is to open the toy box and start playing with all the toys.
You should try to resist that.
What you should do is leave more toys in the toy box that were there when you got there.
Resisting the impulse to be a child and instead think more like a storyteller who is adding to the world rather than taking from it.”
^ as related by Andor screenwriter Tom Bissell; circa 3m 20s into this insightful and quality Q&A video from Backstory Magazine.
A little patience goes a long way on this old-school Rebel base. If you are having issues finding what you are looking for, these will be of some help…
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I’ve seen comments like “Kleya & Vel spin-off when?” and “We need an Andor for this [photo of DS II]” and on the one hand I do think there’s fertile ground with the first one as far as characters go, and obviously with the second one as far as plot-device goes (and yes, Bothans, I know), but of course the actual answer is that they should make neither until they know what the big theme of any show would be. You can’t just retread “The personal sacrifices necessary to fight fascism” over and over, even if it is a good theme.
So ignoring things like Lando and Rian Johnson’s trilogy that will maybe never release, officially we have these likely coming up:
Things I would like to see (in no particular order):
The Star Wars Saga:
I · II · III · IV · V · VI · VII · VIII · IX | Rogue One · Solo
What was first just a dream has become a frightening reality…
Yeah I think the strength of the show was how it handled everyday life for people in the setting and not necessarily the grandiose speeches. What they should take away from it is:
*More subtle writing that takes a little bit more audience inference and has some mystery to it without spelling everything out.
*More of an attempt to cover areas in the setting that don’t fall into the typical mold WITHOUT resorting to a pastiche of some other genre. Not “let’s have a Godzilla episode” or “let’s have an homage to this specific western/samurai movie”, but “let’s show this guy eating cereal with his nosy mom and worrying about his career.” It’s difficult to do without making it too mundane and boring, and I think they failed at it hard when they tried to do something similar in Mandalorian season 3 because it was so incongruous with everything else.
*Practical effects, props, and especially sets with a priority for shooting on location where possible. It’s okay and often better to re-use the same sets several times as you get familiar with the place.
*More attention paid to casting. The existing characters (Cassian, Saw, Mon Mothma, etc.) had already been cast elsewhere but all the new people fit their roles flawlessly. Even minor characters were more memorable because of the casting.
I think they might take the wrong lessons away, like feeling an obligation to a “dark and gritty” tone, morally gray characters and actions, or focusing even further on the already saturated period between episodes 3 and 4.
As always they need to be able to sift out all the tiny bits of gold from the last 10 years, understand why it works, understand why a lot of it doesn’t, then move forward. Anything can be good as proven by Andor; a project I had no faith it. Anything can be bad as proven by top branding icons like Obi-wan and Boba Fett. Can they achieve this? Probably not.
Personally, I believe that they should have the courage to touch the Old Republic, either with a series of films or with a TV show. As long as the stories are well-written and the characters are relatable, I think that fans would not despise them, even if they are not an exact copy and are not faithful to the original Old Republic stories.
“I know that all of you like to dream about space and are a little bit of envious of us. But you know what? We’re also envious of you. We are exploring space, but it’s only the beginning. Planets and unknown worlds are awaiting you. You will continue to storm the Universe.”
— Yuri Gagarin
I’ve seen comments like “Kleya & Vel spin-off when?” and “We need an Andor for this [photo of DS II]” and on the one hand I do think there’s fertile ground with the first one as far as characters go, and obviously with the second one as far as plot-device goes (and yes, Bothans, I know), but of course the actual answer is that they should make neither until they know what the big theme of any show would be. You can’t just retread “The personal sacrifices necessary to fight fascism” over and over, even if it is a good theme.
To follow up on my own post… Andor Spoilers Within:
I was struck by, at the end of season 2, everyone’s got their home on Yavin, and how important this is for their emotional journeys (thinking here of Vel, Kleya, Mon). In just a few days, they are going to almost have their home destroyed by the Death Star, followed by evacuating it completely. They then won’t have a large permanent base for years, as Echo Base takes a long time to build-out. They do not get to inhabit for very long (Wookieepedia says 1 month but this could be stretched and retconned pretty easily as there were Rebels there for 2 years during construction), and afterwards, as far as I know at least, they do not get a permanent base ever again. That homelessness seems like thematic fertile ground to me.
One thing I really want is an actual canon animated anthology show ie take the Tales series away from Filoni, let him have Ahsoka and Maul and then cap him right there.
Animation is probably the greatest asset LFL has to play about with ideas that’s also cost effective. Let creators run wild yet its been pretty much ruled over by 1 guy for like 16 years at this point, outside of Resistance, Visions and Bad Batch (which is a spin on the Filoni stuff)
The best episodes of TotJ I’ve seen so far are the Dooku episodes and the best parts of those don’t feed into the Filoniverse, unlike literally every other arc we’ve had. Don’t limit it to any particular era. Wanna set a 45 min short film set 10 years after the Death Star 2 blew up featuring a young ewok finding the remains of the battle of RotJ? Sure go ahead. Maybe wanna flesh out Grevious outside of like 20 mins of Clone Wars? Yep, everyone would love that. How about we see all these Storm Troopers rebellions that get talked about in TRoS? Or High Republic shenanigans?
Even if it still retains TCW-style, build up all these 3D assets libraries so people can use them fun and interesting ways. We’ve had I imagine like 6 iterations of a single clone trooper design across 1 series, surely some of that effort could instead be put into something we’ve never seen in that style.
Look at Predator, it’s got an animated film coming out to satiate the need for “me want predator to kill people real good” crowd with 3 separate stories in 3 time periods so that in the same year it can release a film about a Predator going on a heroes journey. Use animation as something more than just a set of jangly keys for fans of TCW, instead use it as jangly keys for everyone (which they hopefully will ala Visions)
I think they should take a leaf out of the Rogue One book and do a film about the Bothans obtaining the location of the second Death Star and have the Emperor and his underlings scheming to let them get away but not too easily. Many Bothans will die😢. Some characters from Andor and Rebels could appear. But new characters we don’t know of too. I’d rewrite canon so this Death Star was started around the same time as the first. And that it’s the one we saw in Revenge of the Sith. The first Death Star being a Separatist weapon completed by the Empire and the second being a Republic version built using the plans Dooku gave Sidious. This will explain why it took so long to build one but the other was almost finished a few years later.
I’d like Ronin to become an actual full animated show. Not just two short films/animation.
I’d like a new trilogy of live action films but I don’t what about or who should Star in them.
I kind of don’t know if you can do anything further with the sequel trilogy without pissing large swathes of people off. Or at least online naval gazers.
Disney/Lucasfilm seems to not want to bring anyone back except Daisy as Rey. Probably to hand it off to whoever the next someone is like Luke was supposed to.
But they seem to genuinely not be fussed with getting a script together or timeline to shoot the movie, hell maybe it gets cancelled.
More “bricks and screws” in both a literal and metaphorical sense, please.
The rumor that Filoni is Kennedy’s replacement at Lucasfilm. I had a good laugh.
Dave taking over Disney Star Wars would be pure comedy.
It’s just another fake Fandom Menace rumor I looked it up nothing on Hollywood reporter.
Yeah that seems unlikely but it’s pretty funny, especially when the “insider quote” was that he’s the Ahsoka guy not the Andor guy. Just a few years ago there would have been a positive buzz. A normal producer with long time movie business experience is more likely, if Kennedy ever really goes. Which is also unlikely as usual.
I’ll give them fair play. There is an article on succession wars in Hollywood. But its mere rumor mongering on Kennedy’s status and replacement. They see Carrie Beck and Filoni as the people who will rule jointly the Lucasfilm empire.
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/hollywood-succession-war-1236236327/
It’s a bunch of tabloid crap and it’s not factual based its following trends and making guesses.
I do find the term protege of Filoni to be misleading he never was George’s protege, he was a cartoon showrunner.
If Lucas has a protege there are many choices, Steven Spielberg, or Ron Howard, or even Joe Johnston.
If that is the future of Star Wars a bunch of lame videogame deepfakes and cartoon Luke Skywalker you can count me out. Filoni and Favreau Mandoverse is the Marvelizing of SW and I’m not on board.
Andor showed a different side of Star Wars it’s possible to do something new.
I know people will laugh but at this point they have nothing. you might as well make Rian’s trilogy at least it will be unexpected and different. No mystery boxes or fanboy checklists.