Can't be Bothered: justifying Rey's power vs Luke's — Page 3

screams in the void said:

Shopping Maul said:

yotsuya said:

Well, from his reaction to seeing Ben, it seems pretty clear Ben had not appeared to him before so Ben would not have been teaching him from beyond the grave. Otherwise there would be no need for Yoda.

It would not make sense for Luke to simply give up on the Force for the three years between ANH and TESB. You wouldn’t go “oh well, my mentor’s dead so I’m out”. The implication is that he kept training - to whatever extent. “But I’ve learned so much” is an indication of that.

The Marvel series had Luke training with remotes, meditating, using the Force in battle, and communing with ghost-Obi Wan. This obviously doesn’t count as ‘canon’, but it does indicate the logic of assuming Luke would carry on as best he could. Marvel were on a tight leash with regard to how much they could develop these characters, and they did not know the details of TESB until very close to the movie. There was a fan letter in one issue circa mid-1980 that said something like “you need to pick up the pace because it looks like Luke will be levitating small objects in the next movie - you guys still have him practising with his Lightsaber”. Again, this is a fan assuming the logic of Luke self-training as best he could. Yoda never said “download these skills you must, save time you will”. Training is crucial in the OT. Not in the ST.

one thing about that original Marvel series you did not mention is that in issue 23 , Luke was able to reach out telepathically and touch Vader’s mind , eliciting a very loud scream of agony from Vader . Pretty advanced stuff for a fledgling Jedi ! No one taught him that trick , but hey , it’s not “canon” after all…

I see you’re playing devil’s advocate.

screams in the void said:

Shopping Maul said:

yotsuya said:

Well, from his reaction to seeing Ben, it seems pretty clear Ben had not appeared to him before so Ben would not have been teaching him from beyond the grave. Otherwise there would be no need for Yoda.

It would not make sense for Luke to simply give up on the Force for the three years between ANH and TESB. You wouldn’t go “oh well, my mentor’s dead so I’m out”. The implication is that he kept training - to whatever extent. “But I’ve learned so much” is an indication of that.

The Marvel series had Luke training with remotes, meditating, using the Force in battle, and communing with ghost-Obi Wan. This obviously doesn’t count as ‘canon’, but it does indicate the logic of assuming Luke would carry on as best he could. Marvel were on a tight leash with regard to how much they could develop these characters, and they did not know the details of TESB until very close to the movie. There was a fan letter in one issue circa mid-1980 that said something like “you need to pick up the pace because it looks like Luke will be levitating small objects in the next movie - you guys still have him practising with his Lightsaber”. Again, this is a fan assuming the logic of Luke self-training as best he could. Yoda never said “download these skills you must, save time you will”. Training is crucial in the OT. Not in the ST.

one thing about that original Marvel series you did not mention is that in issue 23 , Luke was able to reach out telepathically and touch Vader’s mind , eliciting a very loud scream of agony from Vader . Pretty advanced stuff for a fledgling Jedi ! No one taught him that trick , but hey , it’s not “canon” after all…

That’s not the point I was making - I’m not doing a powers ‘tit for tat’ here. I was responding to Yotsuya’s inference that Luke started levitating things out of nowhere in TESB the same way Rey miraculously manifests Jedi skills in the ST. I was pointing out that it was a reasonably universal assumption that Luke continued to explore his powers between the movies. The reason I brought up Marvel was to show that, even under Marvel’s extremely ‘conservative by legal necessity’ stewardship, Luke was continuing to train as best he could.

Still, I have to say that Luke’s arc during the ‘Wheel’ saga, and how he arrived at the notion of sending his rage down the psychic well that Vader had opened up, was infinitely more fleshed out and plausible than Rey’s ‘instant download - no training required’ routine.

SilverWook said:

Between SW and ESB, I only recall Luke encountering Obi Wan in a dream state as he lay in a deep coma/state of shock caused by inadvertently touching Vader’s mind in his first attempt at meditating.

I recall Luke also receiving advice from a spectral Obi Wan before his battle with Baron Tagge. But as I pointed out to Screams, I’m not comparing the lessons or powers themselves to the official canon - I’m merely pointing out that it was a reasonably safe assumption (especially given how tied Marvels’s hands were legally) that Luke continued to train between movies.

DominicCobb said:

Luke’s best friend mentions he’s a good pilot? Not in the movie I watch.

Also, we don’t see Luke pilot a ship until the end of the movie, so it’s necessary to set it up so it doesn’t come out of nowhere. When Rey says she’s a pilot as they’re running towards the Falcon, we’re still learning who she is. There’s no reason why we shouldn’t take her at her word, and it would have been silly to mention so earlier (“That’s Teedo. He has no respect for anyone. But I’m Rey and I fly ships good”).

“Sir, Luke is the best bush pilot in the outer rim territories” is in the movie.

mfastx said:

DominicCobb said:

Luke’s best friend mentions he’s a good pilot? Not in the movie I watch.

Also, we don’t see Luke pilot a ship until the end of the movie, so it’s necessary to set it up so it doesn’t come out of nowhere. When Rey says she’s a pilot as they’re running towards the Falcon, we’re still learning who she is. There’s no reason why we shouldn’t take her at her word, and it would have been silly to mention so earlier (“That’s Teedo. He has no respect for anyone. But I’m Rey and I fly ships good”).

“Sir, Luke is the best bush pilot in the outer rim territories” is in the movie.

Nope

DominicCobb said:

mfastx said:

DominicCobb said:

Luke’s best friend mentions he’s a good pilot? Not in the movie I watch.

Also, we don’t see Luke pilot a ship until the end of the movie, so it’s necessary to set it up so it doesn’t come out of nowhere. When Rey says she’s a pilot as they’re running towards the Falcon, we’re still learning who she is. There’s no reason why we shouldn’t take her at her word, and it would have been silly to mention so earlier (“That’s Teedo. He has no respect for anyone. But I’m Rey and I fly ships good”).

“Sir, Luke is the best bush pilot in the outer rim territories” is in the movie.

Nope

Can either of you please provide a source for these claims?

LordZerome1080 said:

Can either of you please provide a source for these claims?

This is from the deleted scenes.

Interesting discussion, and I think both sides have made good points!

I think for me it comes down to this.

Shopping Maul said:
Training is crucial in the OT. Not in the ST.

I think this statement is basically true, but I also don’t think that’s a bad thing. As RL outlined, there is something special about the way the force is behaving, and for me, I’m not interested in another Jedi training arc.

In fact, turning that concept on it’s head is precisely the direction that makes the ST interesting for me. And that much or most of Rey’s training comes from Kylo-Ren is especially interesting. Whether they pay it off in a meaningful way is yet to be see, but I like that their toying with the concepts of good and evil.

The mind-linking in Last Jedi was some of the most creative and interesting material to emerge from Star Wars in a long time.

LordZerome1080 said:

DominicCobb said:

mfastx said:

DominicCobb said:

Luke’s best friend mentions he’s a good pilot? Not in the movie I watch.

Also, we don’t see Luke pilot a ship until the end of the movie, so it’s necessary to set it up so it doesn’t come out of nowhere. When Rey says she’s a pilot as they’re running towards the Falcon, we’re still learning who she is. There’s no reason why we shouldn’t take her at her word, and it would have been silly to mention so earlier (“That’s Teedo. He has no respect for anyone. But I’m Rey and I fly ships good”).

“Sir, Luke is the best bush pilot in the outer rim territories” is in the movie.

Nope

Can either of you please provide a source for these claims?

Really guys?

Dom’s whole point is that the SE doesn’t count for him, and that scene is in the SE but not the original version, therefore it isn’t in the movie that he watches.

Everyone on the same page now?

Page 3?

poppasketti said:

LordZerome1080 said:

Can either of you please provide a source for these claims?

This is from the deleted scenes.

Interesting discussion, and I think both sides have made good points!

I think for me it comes down to this.

Shopping Maul said:
Training is crucial in the OT. Not in the ST.

I think this statement is basically true, but I also don’t think that’s a bad thing. As RL outlined, there is something special about the way the force is behaving, and for me, I’m not interested in another Jedi training arc.

In fact, turning that concept on it’s head is precisely the direction that makes the ST interesting for me. And that much or most of Rey’s training comes from Kylo-Ren is especially interesting. Whether they pay it off in a meaningful way is yet to be see, but I like that their toying with the concepts of good and evil.

The mind-linking in Last Jedi was some of the most creative and interesting material to emerge from Star Wars in a long time.

I absolutely agree with you here, at least in theory. I think the ideas are great, and another Jedi training arc would’ve been redundant as you say. I just think the writing lets it down. In my estimation, everyone on this thread is giving the whole thing infinitely more writing/lore consideration than JJ Abrams ever did. It feels to me like JJ and co. simply threw ‘cool stuff’ onto the page/screen and we as fans are left concocting all kinds of ways to make it work. None of us want Star Wars to suck right? So we do the writing for him - ‘gee, maybe the Force is acting this way, maybe it’s acting that way’ etc etc.

Of course JJ is following Lucas’ post-TESB example in this regard, and that’s why we as fans consistently have to come up with genius in-universe ways to make George’s clumsy inconsistencies make sense. I just think it’s a shame. The movies are fun and cool and very pretty. That’s nice but, a la ANH and TESB, they could’ve been brilliant.

Shopping Maul said:

we as fans are left concocting all kinds of ways to make it work. None of us want Star Wars to suck right? So we do the writing for him - ‘gee, maybe the Force is acting this way, maybe it’s acting that way’ etc etc.

That’s fair that the writing doesn’t work for you, but I would also say that I’m not trying to justify what I like about the ST. I’m simply telling you. In other words, I’m not doing any gymnastics because I want it to be good, I’m just giving my honest reaction to the new movies, which I quite liked except some of the cheesier elements of TLJ.

poppasketti said:

Shopping Maul said:

we as fans are left concocting all kinds of ways to make it work. None of us want Star Wars to suck right? So we do the writing for him - ‘gee, maybe the Force is acting this way, maybe it’s acting that way’ etc etc.

That’s fair that the writing doesn’t work for you, but I would also say that I’m not trying to justify what I like about the ST. I’m simply telling you. In other words, I’m not doing any gymnastics because I want it to be good, I’m just giving my honest reaction to the new movies, which I quite liked except some of the cheesier elements of TLJ.

No probs, and by the way I didn’t mean to imply that you (or anyone) is ‘kidding themselves’ when it comes to these films. This stuff is largely subjective anyway. I could write a thesis on why I think Milius’ Conan the Barbarian is a work of unfettered genius, while another observer might justifiably write it off as puerile adolescent fantasy fronted by bodybuilders in Spinal Tap wigs! Either way I just enjoy these conversations!

How much consideration the writers put into it is certainly up for debate (I definitely feel JJ gave more attention to some elements over others). If you read through the “Art of” books, especially The Force Awakens, you can definitely see Rick Carter, JJ, and the whole team delving back into fundamental questions about the nature of the Star Wars galaxy. How strong is the Force? Who is Luke Skywalker? What is the Force’s relevance? Does it mean anything now? They were really focused on the nature of the Force early on, it seems.

Shopping Maul said:

I didn’t mean to imply that you (or anyone) is ‘kidding themselves’ when it comes to these films.

Hey, no worries, sorry if I came off defensive! I enjoy the conversation too, and it’s the quality of the discussion that makes this forum so great!

RogueLeader said:

How much consideration the writers put into it is certainly up for debate (I definitely feel JJ gave more attention to some elements over others). If you read through the “Art of” books, especially The Force Awakens, you can definitely see Rick Carter, JJ, and the whole team delving back into fundamental questions about the nature of the Star Wars galaxy. How strong is the Force? Who is Luke Skywalker? What is the Force’s relevance? Does it mean anything now? They were really focused on the nature of the Force early on, it seems.

That’s really interesting - perhaps I’m not giving JJ his due? And again the subjectivity factor looms large in these conversations. My ‘issues’ with the whole Skywalker/Force aspect goes back to ROTJ where, as I’ve often harped on about, I feel Luke’s role has been misinterpreted as more crucial to the outcome than widely accepted. Which by association colours how I feel about his being revered as a ‘legend’ in any sequel material.
But yeah, I’m curious to know how JJ and his team arrived at their own conclusions regarding Luke and the Force.

It’s probably always safe to assume that fans/audiences underestimate how much thought filmmakers put into their choices. Most don’t realize how long and intensive the process is. In the case of TFA, JJ was essentially writing that movie from the beginning of 2013 all the way through to the end of 2015 (plus being a fan he probably came in with a lot of prior thoughts about the nature of things in the universe).

This is not me saying you can’t complain about the choices that were made, but it’s unfair and innacurate to suggest that the choices were made thoughtlessly.

For me, if it’s a choice you don’t like, I think it’s interesting to consider why they might have made such a choice - typically it’s in service of something else that they believe is more important than the thing you dislike about it.

LordZerome1080 said:

oojason said:

Valheru_84 said:

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

I just found this and read the first post. I had to laugh at the idea that Rey flew the Falcon so well. She practically crashed the thing trying to take off. Once they were in the air she did pretty good, but when you compare that to Luke, he flew his X-wing like a pro from the beginning.

Luke is the best stunt pilot in the outer rim territories, and has clearly been flying for years. And it’s notable that even he never does anything terribly flashy in the OT. Rey’s handling of the Falcon is about how you’d expect in the first few moments, but after that she successfully executes maneuvers far in excess of anything we’ve seen before. If anything, the contrast between almost crashing and ace-level piloting makes her abilities all the more noticeable.

Rey has to try things before she succeeds, pretty much the way Luke did. And she does have a teacher. She learns just about everything she does from Kylo Ren.

She has never seen Klyo use a Jedi mind trick or even successfully gain his desired information from interrogation, though she manages a successful and proper mind trick after a minute or two of trying.
She has never seen successful telekinesis or levitation, yet apparently learns this on the first attempt after only a moment of intention from Kylo. Interestingly, Kylo never indicates that he is aware of teaching Rey ‘You need a teacher! I can show you the ways of the Force!’ and Rey never acknowledges that she has gained knowledge from Kylo ‘The Force…’.

I’d still like to know who taught Luke to lift his lightsaber in TESB.

If only there was some sort of Jedi mentor which has been established to help Luke from beyond the grave, or a time jump of several years to help the audience suspend their disbelief. Or both.

Pretty much all of this ^

It’s amusing how people that defend TLJ accuse the detractors of cherry picking but then do exactly that themselves in defending it. Someone comments generally about Rey’s unbelievable command of a ship she’s never flown before (if she’s ever flown at all??) and so the defense is to post a gif of her crashing in the first few seconds…before she’s pulling flips and advanced manoeuvres in the middle of a star destroyer wreck?

Cherrypicking? The gif was posted in response to this post…

yotsuya said:

I just found this and read the first post. I had to laugh at the idea that Rey flew the Falcon so well. She practically crashed the thing trying to take off. Once they were in the air she did pretty good, but when you compare that to Luke, he flew his X-wing like a pro from the beginning. Rey has to try things before she succeeds, pretty much the way Luke did. And she does have a teacher. She learns just about everything she does from Kylo Ren. I’d still like to know who taught Luke to lift his lightsaber in TESB.

… as quoted in my post with the gif.
 

I don’t think that’s cherrypicking - the first line of yotsuya’s post ‘I had to laugh at the idea that Rey flew the Falcon so well. She practically crashed the thing trying to take off.’

Seems the gif represents that quite well, yes?

I wasn’t replying to KurganX’s opening post - nor ‘defending’ TLJ - just highlighting what actually occurred in the film - as yotsuya mentioned.

Wow.
 

Where in the posts your replying to do they mention your name? He’s saying people in general.

I was making a comment in general but using a specific example within the same thread. That post was in response to another’s that also falls under the point I’m making, in that they’re scoffing at the OP’s comment due to a few seconds of Rey bumping along the ground, as if that justifies the immediate following minutes of footage of Rey expertly piloting the Falcon through ridiculously small spaces as if she’d been flying it for years. Some of the manoeuvres she pulls off during this sequence can be equated to requiring skills shown by massively experienced and skilled fighter and acrobatic jet pilots here on Earth that pull insane manouevers in either combat training or airshows, the literal best pilots of all of humanity.

So choosing to point at the few seconds where she metaphorically “stumbles” as reason and justification to discredit and laugh off the OP’s argument is cherry picking as far as I’m concerned. From all the available data they pick this tiny portion to pin up as the reason why the OP’s argument is both wrong and silly in their view while ignoring the context that all the other data brings to the overall picture.

I chose the gif post as an example as it reinforces the cherry picked example while talking snidely as if to a confident about how obviously wrong the OP is and joining in on the scoffing with quite the condescending tone if you ask me…

That escalated quickly. I wish things like this were discussed with more civility.

It is kind of insane to me that people trump up Rey’s piloting ability when the film goes out of its way to show her inexperience. When she’s able to navigate through the star destroyer, we believe it because she literally knows it inside and out. Remember her intro scene? When she makes that incredible hairpin turn, in my mind that’s the film finally telling us “hey, she’s got pretty good instincts so… you know what that means.” In my mind when I first saw the movie I was like wow, it reminded me of Qui-Gon saying Anakin he had Jedi reflexes. It was the moment I realized she had the force.

It’s crazy to me how people can watch this and get so riled up. How dare this girl fly the Falcon better than Han! It’s a baffling conclusion to come to. It’s not what the film is saying at all. But that’s Star Wars fans these days I guess.

DominicCobb,

That is perfectly said. I completely agree!

Rey has definitely been challenged. She just deals with it differently.

Her entire life on Jakku was a challenge just to survive. Luke had an aunt and uncle with a home, food, and jobs, and he had friends. He even had a Jedi master watching over him, waiting to take him under his wing. Even though Anakin was a slave, he still had Shmi and even Watto seemed to treat him decently. He even had his own racer.

Rey was left alone, got captured by the First Order, mind probed by Kylo Ren, watched her friend Han get impaled on a lightsaber and her other friend Finn get his back sliced. Luke was negative about training her. She felt helpless as the First Order targeted resistance escape ships and Kylo refused to call them off. Yes, Luke and Anakin both experienced adversity and great losses too. I’m just pointing out so did Rey, but she faced her’s without family or a mentor. There are no force ghosts talking her through anything.

Rey has had plenty of reasons to give up but she simply just does not quit. I love Luke Skywalker, but he was very whiny. Anakin was too. Rey just sucks it up and gets it done. She makes it looks easy because instead of complaining, she gets straight to solving the problem. I don’t think Luke or Anakin would have survived long on Jakku alone with their attitudes. If you dropped a young Rey, Luke, and Anakin into the middle of a zombie apocalypse, I’d put my money on Rey being the one who survives and probably becomes the leader.

The Force enhances your abilities. Rey was already shown to be a proficient fighter just to survive on Jakku. Of course she defeats an emotionally distraught Kylo who had just been shot by a weapon that we’ve seen can send bodies flying. She knows a lot about mechanics and ships from salvaging, so I have no problem with her being able to repair the Falcon. There’s no training better than experiencing something first hand. Kylo probes Rey’s mind aggressively, so her being able to get inside a weak minded stormtrooper for a second doesn’t seem surprising to me. It would be more surprising if she just sat there and did nothing while waiting to be rescued. Her abilities are no more surprising than a small boy being the only human that can pilot a podracer or a rural farmboy flying a combat mission in space or blocking lasers with a blast shield down just from a suggestion to reach out.

A great deal of the Jedi training we see in the movies deals with focus. Luke and Anakin both lacked focus. Rey is extremely focused. She is strong willed and determined. She is task oriented and has a can do attitude. All of that can take you a long way.