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Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 153

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 (Edited)

rodneyfaile said:

Luke was whiny and immature. Most of his training centered around focus. Rey has plenty of focus and self reliance. The Force accents traits you already posses. Rey is already a pilot and great fighter when we meet her. You’re right, she is on another level.

Force abilities manifest themselves. Jedi training seems to be mainly learning the Jedi way in how to be disciplined and adhere to the Jedi code.

I love that Rey is not beholden to what came before. If I wanted to watch another movie with a master teaching an apprentice, well we have those movies already. I’d rather see how Rey does it this time.

You don’t need to show a master training an apprentice to suggest that she was trained. The movie can focus on other elements of the story in stead.

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Time

Rey is an autodidact. She has been on her own so long, that is just her way. I love it.

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 (Edited)

DrDre said:

The latter is your erroneous interpretation of other people’s arguments including my own. I never stated Star Wars is devoid of symbolism and moral lessons, and nor did anyone else. Nobody but you claims “simple escapism” and symbolism and moral lessons are mutually exclusive. In fact you seem to treat the idea of simple escapism with an amount of disdain.

The entire conversation stemmed from this comment made by someone else:

“”“So Star Wars is now a learning-lessons-about-life-meta-documentary which uses a fictional space fantasy fairy tale as a backdrop some old bearded guy invented in the 70s?
Meh.
Star Wars should be about escapism, not realism.”""

I said that that storytelling style has always been present in Star Wars and if you don’t think so, then you didn’t understand the other movies either. I stand by that statement.

I was not insulting anyone. It was not a personal attack. Just my advice to go back an look at the other Star Wars movies in a different light.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

But within the Star Wars universe, Luke Skywalker still is a Jedi in TLJ, and has all of the powers a Jedi has within that universe.

Luke appearing on Crait was an illusion, but that is still very much a real power. Probably one of the most powerful uses of the Force we’ve ever seen. One that succeeds in its goal of saving the Resistance, but also not allowing his nephew to get more blood on his hands.

So the projection might be some kind of metaphor, but it is not a metaphor in-universe. He very much performed a heroic feat that is worthy of the Jedi legend.

Within universe, Luke had began to doubt the function of the Jedi. He believes that since he has failed like the Jedi before him, that the very existence of the Jedi as they are now are just a part of the problem. That light begets dark. So he has begun to believe that the Jedi need to end in order to stop the cycle, and for something better to start from scratch and take its place.
But in the end, he sees the value of the Jedi, and instead of throwing it all away and starting over, like Kylo Ren wants to, he sees the merit in accepting those mistakes and learning from them in order to grow.

So just because Luke questions that nature in TLJ, doesn’t undo himself as a real person or his very real powers. Because a meta-commentary exists within the film doesn’t necessarily mean that the meta-commentary exists in the universe the characters occupy.

The legend of Luke, in-universe, is an idealized, unchanging version of Luke that doesn’t exist, but Luke Skywalker still very much exists.

The Last Jedi actually still fulfills the latter steps of the Hero’s Journey as well, keeping in line with Luke’s Journey in the OT:

Rescue from Without
Just as the hero may need guides and assistants to set out on the quest, often he or she must have powerful guides and rescuers to bring them back to everyday life, especially if the person has been wounded or weakened by the experience.
The hero may have to be brought back from his supernatural adventure by assistance from without. That is to say, the world may have to come and get him. And yet, in so far as one is alive, life will call. >Society is jealous of those who remain away from it, and will come knocking at the door. If the hero. . . is unwilling, the disturber suffers an ugly shock.

The Crossing of the Return Threshold
The trick in returning is to retain the wisdom gained on the quest, to integrate that wisdom and share it with the world.
The easy thing is to commit the whole community to the devil and retire again into the heavenly rock dwelling, close the door, and make it fast. But if some spiritual obstetrician has drawn the shimenawa across the retreat, then the work of representing eternity in time, and perceiving in time eternity, cannot be avoided" The hero returns to the world of common day and accepts it as real and worthy of salvation.

Master of Two Worlds
This step is usually represented by a transcendental hero like Jesus or Gautama Buddha. For a human hero, it may mean achieving a balance between the material and spiritual. The person has become comfortable and competent in both the inner and outer worlds.
Campbell: "Freedom to pass back and forth across the world division, from the perspective of the apparitions of time to that of the causal deep and back—not contaminating the principles of the one with those of the other, yet permitting the mind to know the one by virtue of the other—is the talent of the master. The Cosmic Dancer, declares Nietzsche, does not rest heavily in a single spot, but gaily, lightly, turns and leaps from one position to another.

Freedom to Live (for an eternity) Mastery leads to freedom from the fear of death, which in turn is the freedom to live (for an eternity)

This is a part of what I love about it. It can carry these messages that might seem contradictory, but they’re not. It’s gets closer to true understanding, like the Force representing the eternal Tao, which is in itself shows balance in contradictions.

The Last Jedi deconstructs the hero, while still following the hero’s journey. It deconstructs legend, but still shows that there is truth to legends. You just can’t confuse deconstruction with destruction. To me, the film simply asks, what makes a hero a hero, and what makes a legend a legend?

While the Last Jedi has post-modern ideas, it doesn’t conclude in nihilism like a lot of post-modernist thought does, saying none of it matters. By deconstructing certain ideas, it does shows their flaws, but also their crucial value.

From a more personal perspective though, I do really appreciate Luke’s story in VIII.
Luke was always my favorite character growing up. He was my hero. But as I’ve grown up I’ve realized that we can’t always stand up to that heroism. We make mistakes, we hurt people we care about, we fail people sometimes. But just because we fail doesn’t mean we should give up on trying to be better. It’s the constant struggle of self improvement that allows for us to be better. It is not a place you reach, but something that must be maintained.

Which also makes me think of Luke. Even though he overcame the dark side in Return of the Jedi doesn’t mean he gets a key to never struggle with the dark side again. The constant struggle is much more appropriate to what the dark side represents.

While not my situation, one example I see a clear parallel to is raising kids. Kids often idealize their parents and as they grow up, eventually see that their parents aren’t perfect people. They have flaws, and probably those flaws will reflect on their children in someway, for better or worse. Eventually parents will slip up, say something that hurts their kids feelings, takes a punishment too far. Being imperfect, failing your kid sometimes, can feel horrible, but eventually you have to accept that you’re going to make mistakes, and despite them you have to learn from those mistakes and be the best parent you can possibly be, because that’s all you really can do.

Since Luke has gone through his own failure, and even gone as far as isolating himself because he thinks he will only makes things worse, gives me hope that even if I feel like I’m at my lowest point in my life, like Luke, that I still have a chance at bouncing back and becoming closer to that idealized version of myself than I ever thought possible.

For me, this makes Luke my hero even more than he was before.

Definitely not trying to say your opinion is wrong. It doesn’t work for you, and that’s totally fine! This movie isn’t a masterpiece, but it isn’t a disaster either. And I do disagree that The Last Jedi contradicts the mythology set up by the rest of the saga. To me, it is a great defense of that mythology, showing us why it is so important. All these movies carry life lessons within a fantastical setting, including this one, and that’s what makes these movies fairy tales.

EDIT: I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind and I know it probably isn’t going to, but I just want to ask others who might disagree with me to stay open-minded about what I said. I love Star Wars, and I just want others to love it to. Like them or not, the Prequels and Sequels are a part of the Saga. You can choose to ignore them, but I just want others to try accept them and find meaning in their stories so people can enjoy them and have fun with the whole saga. That’s all I want! You guys are great, thanks for all of the interesting discussions.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

rodneyfaile said:

DrDre said:

The latter is your erroneous interpretation of other people’s arguments including my own. I never stated Star Wars is devoid of symbolism and moral lessons, and nor did anyone else. Nobody but you claims “simple escapism” and symbolism and moral lessons are mutually exclusive. In fact you seem to treat the idea of simple escapism with an amount of disdain.

The entire conversation stemmed from this comment made by someone else:

“”“So Star Wars is now a learning-lessons-about-life-meta-documentary which uses a fictional space fantasy fairy tale as a backdrop some old bearded guy invented in the 70s?
Meh.
Star Wars should be about escapism, not realism.”""

I said that that storytelling style has always been present in Star Wars and if you don’t think so, then you didn’t understand the other movies either. I stand by that statement.

I was not insulting anyone. It was not a personal attack. Just my advice to go back an look at the other Star Wars movies in a different light.

I disagree with you. There’s a marked difference in storytelling style between Lucas’ films and TLJ in my view in particular in the way Lucas shaped his modern myth, and in the way Johnsom deconstructs that myth, only to reconstruct in a more post-modern context. There’s a difference between viewing the original films in their original context, and by viewing them in the context TLJ provides. Some of us might be inclined to suggest the movies were always meant to be seen in this light, but I’m inclined to disagree, and believe Lucas would as well.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

RogueLeader said:

But within the Star Wars universe, Luke Skywalker still is a Jedi in TLJ, and has all of the powers a Jedi has within that universe.

Luke appearing on Crait was an illusion, but that is still very much a real power. Probably one of the most powerful uses of the Force we’ve ever seen. One that succeeds in its goal of saving the Resistance, but also not allowing his nephew to get more blood on his hands.

So the projection might be some kind of metaphor, but it is not a metaphor in-universe. He very much performed a heroic feat that is worthy of the Jedi legend.

Within universe, Luke had began to doubt the function of the Jedi. He believes that since he has failed like the Jedi before him, that the very existence of the Jedi as they are now are just a part of the problem. That light begets dark. So he has begun to believe that the Jedi need to end in order to stop the cycle, and for something better to start from scratch and take its place.
But in the end, he sees the value of the Jedi, and instead of throwing it all away and starting over, like Kylo Ren wants to, he sees the merit in accepting those mistakes and learning from them in order to grow.

So just because Luke questions that nature in TLJ, doesn’t undo himself as a real person or his very real powers. Because a meta-commentary exists within the film doesn’t necessarily mean that the meta-commentary exists in the universe the characters occupy.

The legend of Luke, in-universe, is an idealized, unchanging version of Luke that doesn’t exist, but Luke Skywalker still very much exists.

The Last Jedi actually still fulfills the latter steps of the Hero’s Journey as well, keeping in line with Luke’s Journey in the OT:

Rescue from Without
Just as the hero may need guides and assistants to set out on the quest, often he or she must have powerful guides and rescuers to bring them back to everyday life, especially if the person has been wounded or weakened by the experience.
The hero may have to be brought back from his supernatural adventure by assistance from without. That is to say, the world may have to come and get him. And yet, in so far as one is alive, life will call. >Society is jealous of those who remain away from it, and will come knocking at the door. If the hero. . . is unwilling, the disturber suffers an ugly shock.

The Crossing of the Return Threshold
The trick in returning is to retain the wisdom gained on the quest, to integrate that wisdom and share it with the world.
The easy thing is to commit the whole community to the devil and retire again into the heavenly rock dwelling, close the door, and make it fast. But if some spiritual obstetrician has drawn the shimenawa across the retreat, then the work of representing eternity in time, and perceiving in time eternity, cannot be avoided" The hero returns to the world of common day and accepts it as real and worthy of salvation.

Master of Two Worlds
This step is usually represented by a transcendental hero like Jesus or Gautama Buddha. For a human hero, it may mean achieving a balance between the material and spiritual. The person has become comfortable and competent in both the inner and outer worlds.
Campbell: "Freedom to pass back and forth across the world division, from the perspective of the apparitions of time to that of the causal deep and back—not contaminating the principles of the one with those of the other, yet permitting the mind to know the one by virtue of the other—is the talent of the master. The Cosmic Dancer, declares Nietzsche, does not rest heavily in a single spot, but gaily, lightly, turns and leaps from one position to another.

Freedom to Live (for an eternity) Mastery leads to freedom from the fear of death, which in turn is the freedom to live (for an eternity)

This is a part of what I love about it. It can carry these messages that might seem contradictory, but they’re not. It’s gets closer to true understanding, like the Force representing the eternal Tao, which is in itself shows balance in contradictions.

The Last Jedi deconstructs the hero, while still following the hero’s journey. It deconstructs legend, but still shows that there is truth to legends. You just can’t confuse deconstruction with destruction. To me, the film simply asks, what makes a hero a hero, and what makes a legend a legend?

While the Last Jedi has post-modern ideas, it doesn’t conclude in nihilism like a lot of post-modernist thought does, saying none of it matters. By deconstructing certain ideas, it does shows their flaws, but also their crucial value.

From a more personal perspective though, I do really appreciate Luke’s story in VIII.
Luke was always my favorite character growing up. He was my hero. But as I’ve grown up I’ve realized that we can’t always stand up to that heroism. We make mistakes, we hurt people we care about, we fail people sometimes. But just because we fail doesn’t mean we should give up on trying to be better. It’s the constant struggle of self improvement that allows for us to be better. It is not a place you reach, but something that must be maintained.

Which also makes me think of Luke. Even though he overcame the dark side in Return of the Jedi doesn’t mean he gets a key to never struggle with the dark side again. The constant struggle is much more appropriate to what the dark side represents.

While not my situation, one example I see a clear parallel to is raising kids. Kids often idealize their parents and as they grow up, eventually see that their parents aren’t perfect people. They have flaws, and probably those flaws will reflect on their children in someway, for better or worse. Eventually parents will slip up, say something that hurts their kids feelings, takes a punishment too far. Being imperfect, failing your kid sometimes, can feel horrible, but eventually you have to accept that you’re going to make mistakes, and despite them you have to learn from those mistakes and be the best parent you can possibly be, because that’s all you really can do.

Since Luke has gone through his own failure, and even gone as far as isolating himself because he thinks he will only makes things worse, gives me hope that even if I feel like I’m at my lowest point in my life, like Luke, that I still have a chance at bouncing back and becoming closer to that idealized version of myself than I ever thought possible.

For me, this makes Luke my hero even more than he was before.

Definitely not trying to say your opinion is wrong. It doesn’t work for you, and that’s totally fine! This movie isn’t a masterpiece, but it isn’t a disaster either. And I do disagree that The Last Jedi contradicts the mythology set up by the rest of the saga. To me, it is a great defense of that mythology, showing us why it is so important. All these movies carry life lessons within a fantastical setting, including this one, and that’s what makes these movies fairy tales.

I don’t think TLJ is a disaster. I don’t any of the films are. They each have their merits, but I view Johnson’s film as an attempt to delibirately deconstruct Lucas’ mythology only to reconstruct it in a more post-modern light. While I think the approach is interesting, I don’t think, it meshes well with Lucas’ vision, and would be suited better for a separate trilogy, rather than the eight part of a nine part story.

Author
Time

RogueLeader said:

But within the Star Wars universe, Luke Skywalker still is a Jedi in TLJ, and has all of the powers a Jedi has within that universe.

Luke appearing on Crait was an illusion, but that is still very much a real power. Probably one of the most powerful uses of the Force we’ve ever seen. One that succeeds in its goal of saving the Resistance, but also not allowing his nephew to get more blood on his hands.

So the projection might be some kind of metaphor, but it is not a metaphor in-universe. He very much performed a heroic feat that is worthy of the Jedi legend.

Within universe, Luke had began to doubt the function of the Jedi. He believes that since he has failed like the Jedi before him, that the very existence of the Jedi as they are now are just a part of the problem. That light begets dark. So he has begun to believe that the Jedi need to end in order to stop the cycle, and for something better to start from scratch and take its place.
But in the end, he sees the value of the Jedi, and instead of throwing it all away and starting over, like Kylo Ren wants to, he sees the merit in accepting those mistakes and learning from them in order to grow.

So just because Luke questions that nature in TLJ, doesn’t undo himself as a real person or his very real powers. Because a meta-commentary exists within the film doesn’t necessarily mean that the meta-commentary exists in the universe the characters occupy.

The legend of Luke, in-universe, is an idealized, unchanging version of Luke that doesn’t exist, but Luke Skywalker still very much exists.

The Last Jedi actually still fulfills the latter steps of the Hero’s Journey as well, keeping in line with Luke’s Journey in the OT:

Rescue from Without
Just as the hero may need guides and assistants to set out on the quest, often he or she must have powerful guides and rescuers to bring them back to everyday life, especially if the person has been wounded or weakened by the experience.
The hero may have to be brought back from his supernatural adventure by assistance from without. That is to say, the world may have to come and get him. And yet, in so far as one is alive, life will call. >Society is jealous of those who remain away from it, and will come knocking at the door. If the hero. . . is unwilling, the disturber suffers an ugly shock.

The Crossing of the Return Threshold
The trick in returning is to retain the wisdom gained on the quest, to integrate that wisdom and share it with the world.
The easy thing is to commit the whole community to the devil and retire again into the heavenly rock dwelling, close the door, and make it fast. But if some spiritual obstetrician has drawn the shimenawa across the retreat, then the work of representing eternity in time, and perceiving in time eternity, cannot be avoided" The hero returns to the world of common day and accepts it as real and worthy of salvation.

Master of Two Worlds
This step is usually represented by a transcendental hero like Jesus or Gautama Buddha. For a human hero, it may mean achieving a balance between the material and spiritual. The person has become comfortable and competent in both the inner and outer worlds.
Campbell: "Freedom to pass back and forth across the world division, from the perspective of the apparitions of time to that of the causal deep and back—not contaminating the principles of the one with those of the other, yet permitting the mind to know the one by virtue of the other—is the talent of the master. The Cosmic Dancer, declares Nietzsche, does not rest heavily in a single spot, but gaily, lightly, turns and leaps from one position to another.

Freedom to Live (for an eternity) Mastery leads to freedom from the fear of death, which in turn is the freedom to live (for an eternity)

This is a part of what I love about it. It can carry these messages that might seem contradictory, but they’re not. It’s gets closer to true understanding, like the Force representing the eternal Tao, which is in itself shows balance in contradictions.

The Last Jedi deconstructs the hero, while still following the hero’s journey. It deconstructs legend, but still shows that there is truth to legends. You just can’t confuse deconstruction with destruction. To me, the film simply asks, what makes a hero a hero, and what makes a legend a legend?

While the Last Jedi has post-modern ideas, it doesn’t conclude in nihilism like a lot of post-modernist thought does, saying none of it matters. By deconstructing certain ideas, it does shows their flaws, but also their crucial value.

From a more personal perspective though, I do really appreciate Luke’s story in VIII.
Luke was always my favorite character growing up. He was my hero. But as I’ve grown up I’ve realized that we can’t always stand up to that heroism. We make mistakes, we hurt people we care about, we fail people sometimes. But just because we fail doesn’t mean we should give up on trying to be better. It’s the constant struggle of self improvement that allows for us to be better. It is not a place you reach, but something that must be maintained.

Which also makes me think of Luke. Even though he overcame the dark side in Return of the Jedi doesn’t mean he gets a key to never struggle with the dark side again. The constant struggle is much more appropriate to what the dark side represents.

While not my situation, one example I see a clear parallel to is raising kids. Kids often idealize their parents and as they grow up, eventually see that their parents aren’t perfect people. They have flaws, and probably those flaws will reflect on their children in someway, for better or worse. Eventually parents will slip up, say something that hurts their kids feelings, takes a punishment too far. Being imperfect, failing your kid sometimes, can feel horrible, but eventually you have to accept that you’re going to make mistakes, and despite them you have to learn from those mistakes and be the best parent you can possibly be, because that’s all you really can do.

Since Luke has gone through his own failure, and even gone as far as isolating himself because he thinks he will only makes things worse, gives me hope that even if I feel like I’m at my lowest point in my life, like Luke, that I still have a chance at bouncing back and becoming closer to that idealized version of myself than I ever thought possible.

For me, this makes Luke my hero even more than he was before.

Definitely not trying to say your opinion is wrong. It doesn’t work for you, and that’s totally fine! This movie isn’t a masterpiece, but it isn’t a disaster either. And I do disagree that The Last Jedi contradicts the mythology set up by the rest of the saga. To me, it is a great defense of that mythology, showing us why it is so important. All these movies carry life lessons within a fantastical setting, including this one, and that’s what makes these movies fairy tales.

EDIT: I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind and I know it probably isn’t going to, but I just want to ask others who might disagree with me to stay open-minded about what I said. I love Star Wars, and I just want others to love it to. Like them or not, the Prequels and Sequels are a part of the Saga. You can choose to ignore them, but I just want others to try accept them and find meaning in their stories so people can enjoy them and have fun with the whole saga. That’s all I want! You guys are great, thanks for all of the interesting discussions.

I agree with this and am keeping an open mind . I have a copy of Joseph Campbell’s Hero With A Thousand Faces and it has an outline of the hero’s journey and TLJ follows that outline brilliantly . It is also worth noting that Carrie Fisher was an in demand script doctor and lent her input into the TLJ script .Also , regarding the recent conversation here , the HelloGreedo post that OOJason made a page or so back addresses a lot of the dynamics of recent conversations .When someone comments like this …“So Star Wars is now a learning-lessons-about-life-meta-documentary which uses a fictional space fantasy fairy tale as a backdrop some old bearded guy invented in the 70s?” or this “Sounds like you didn’t understand the other movies either.” both are antagonistic . the first one is patronizing and the second one is insulting someones intelligence . You may not have intended it as you say , but perhaps people , and this includes myself , should think about how their comments will be received before making them .

https://screamsinthevoid.deviantart.com/

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Time

screams in the void said:

RogueLeader said:

But within the Star Wars universe, Luke Skywalker still is a Jedi in TLJ, and has all of the powers a Jedi has within that universe.

Luke appearing on Crait was an illusion, but that is still very much a real power. Probably one of the most powerful uses of the Force we’ve ever seen. One that succeeds in its goal of saving the Resistance, but also not allowing his nephew to get more blood on his hands.

So the projection might be some kind of metaphor, but it is not a metaphor in-universe. He very much performed a heroic feat that is worthy of the Jedi legend.

Within universe, Luke had began to doubt the function of the Jedi. He believes that since he has failed like the Jedi before him, that the very existence of the Jedi as they are now are just a part of the problem. That light begets dark. So he has begun to believe that the Jedi need to end in order to stop the cycle, and for something better to start from scratch and take its place.
But in the end, he sees the value of the Jedi, and instead of throwing it all away and starting over, like Kylo Ren wants to, he sees the merit in accepting those mistakes and learning from them in order to grow.

So just because Luke questions that nature in TLJ, doesn’t undo himself as a real person or his very real powers. Because a meta-commentary exists within the film doesn’t necessarily mean that the meta-commentary exists in the universe the characters occupy.

The legend of Luke, in-universe, is an idealized, unchanging version of Luke that doesn’t exist, but Luke Skywalker still very much exists.

The Last Jedi actually still fulfills the latter steps of the Hero’s Journey as well, keeping in line with Luke’s Journey in the OT:

Rescue from Without
Just as the hero may need guides and assistants to set out on the quest, often he or she must have powerful guides and rescuers to bring them back to everyday life, especially if the person has been wounded or weakened by the experience.
The hero may have to be brought back from his supernatural adventure by assistance from without. That is to say, the world may have to come and get him. And yet, in so far as one is alive, life will call. >Society is jealous of those who remain away from it, and will come knocking at the door. If the hero. . . is unwilling, the disturber suffers an ugly shock.

The Crossing of the Return Threshold
The trick in returning is to retain the wisdom gained on the quest, to integrate that wisdom and share it with the world.
The easy thing is to commit the whole community to the devil and retire again into the heavenly rock dwelling, close the door, and make it fast. But if some spiritual obstetrician has drawn the shimenawa across the retreat, then the work of representing eternity in time, and perceiving in time eternity, cannot be avoided" The hero returns to the world of common day and accepts it as real and worthy of salvation.

Master of Two Worlds
This step is usually represented by a transcendental hero like Jesus or Gautama Buddha. For a human hero, it may mean achieving a balance between the material and spiritual. The person has become comfortable and competent in both the inner and outer worlds.
Campbell: "Freedom to pass back and forth across the world division, from the perspective of the apparitions of time to that of the causal deep and back—not contaminating the principles of the one with those of the other, yet permitting the mind to know the one by virtue of the other—is the talent of the master. The Cosmic Dancer, declares Nietzsche, does not rest heavily in a single spot, but gaily, lightly, turns and leaps from one position to another.

Freedom to Live (for an eternity) Mastery leads to freedom from the fear of death, which in turn is the freedom to live (for an eternity)

This is a part of what I love about it. It can carry these messages that might seem contradictory, but they’re not. It’s gets closer to true understanding, like the Force representing the eternal Tao, which is in itself shows balance in contradictions.

The Last Jedi deconstructs the hero, while still following the hero’s journey. It deconstructs legend, but still shows that there is truth to legends. You just can’t confuse deconstruction with destruction. To me, the film simply asks, what makes a hero a hero, and what makes a legend a legend?

While the Last Jedi has post-modern ideas, it doesn’t conclude in nihilism like a lot of post-modernist thought does, saying none of it matters. By deconstructing certain ideas, it does shows their flaws, but also their crucial value.

From a more personal perspective though, I do really appreciate Luke’s story in VIII.
Luke was always my favorite character growing up. He was my hero. But as I’ve grown up I’ve realized that we can’t always stand up to that heroism. We make mistakes, we hurt people we care about, we fail people sometimes. But just because we fail doesn’t mean we should give up on trying to be better. It’s the constant struggle of self improvement that allows for us to be better. It is not a place you reach, but something that must be maintained.

Which also makes me think of Luke. Even though he overcame the dark side in Return of the Jedi doesn’t mean he gets a key to never struggle with the dark side again. The constant struggle is much more appropriate to what the dark side represents.

While not my situation, one example I see a clear parallel to is raising kids. Kids often idealize their parents and as they grow up, eventually see that their parents aren’t perfect people. They have flaws, and probably those flaws will reflect on their children in someway, for better or worse. Eventually parents will slip up, say something that hurts their kids feelings, takes a punishment too far. Being imperfect, failing your kid sometimes, can feel horrible, but eventually you have to accept that you’re going to make mistakes, and despite them you have to learn from those mistakes and be the best parent you can possibly be, because that’s all you really can do.

Since Luke has gone through his own failure, and even gone as far as isolating himself because he thinks he will only makes things worse, gives me hope that even if I feel like I’m at my lowest point in my life, like Luke, that I still have a chance at bouncing back and becoming closer to that idealized version of myself than I ever thought possible.

For me, this makes Luke my hero even more than he was before.

Definitely not trying to say your opinion is wrong. It doesn’t work for you, and that’s totally fine! This movie isn’t a masterpiece, but it isn’t a disaster either. And I do disagree that The Last Jedi contradicts the mythology set up by the rest of the saga. To me, it is a great defense of that mythology, showing us why it is so important. All these movies carry life lessons within a fantastical setting, including this one, and that’s what makes these movies fairy tales.

EDIT: I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind and I know it probably isn’t going to, but I just want to ask others who might disagree with me to stay open-minded about what I said. I love Star Wars, and I just want others to love it to. Like them or not, the Prequels and Sequels are a part of the Saga. You can choose to ignore them, but I just want others to try accept them and find meaning in their stories so people can enjoy them and have fun with the whole saga. That’s all I want! You guys are great, thanks for all of the interesting discussions.

I agree with this and am keeping an open mind . I have a copy of Joseph Campbell’s Hero With A Thousand Faces and it has an outline of the hero’s journey and TLJ follows that outline brilliantly . It is also worth noting that Carrie Fisher was an in demand script doctor and lent her input into the TLJ script .Also , regarding the recent conversation here , the HelloGreedo post that OOJason made a page or so back addresses a lot of the dynamics of recent conversations .When someone comments like this …“So Star Wars is now a learning-lessons-about-life-meta-documentary which uses a fictional space fantasy fairy tale as a backdrop some old bearded guy invented in the 70s?” or this “Sounds like you didn’t understand the other movies either.” both are antagonistic . the first one is patronizing and the second one is insulting someones intelligence . You may not have intended it as you say , but perhaps people , and this includes myself , should think about how their comments will be received before making them .

I agree! I think great arguments are made from both parts of the fence, but I would be happier if there were no fence at all, and we would just accept we are all fans with different points of view willing to see the films through each other’s eyes.

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rodneyfaile said:

Luke was whiny and immature. Most of his training centered around focus. Rey has plenty of focus and self reliance. The Force accents traits you already posses. Rey is already a pilot and great fighter when we meet her. You’re right, she is on another level.

Force abilities manifest themselves. Jedi training seems to be mainly learning the Jedi way in how to be disciplined and adhere to the Jedi code.

I love that Rey is not beholden to what came before. If I wanted to watch another movie with a master teaching an apprentice, well we have those movies already. I’d rather see how Rey does it this time.

If Rey was jumped by Sandpeople like Luke was, it would be a fair fight at least! 😃

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Where were you in '77?

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Thanks for the reply Dre! I am kind of curious where you think TFA, and TLJ by extension, would have went if under Lucas’ reigns or closer to his original treatments. I’m not asking just so I can retort with why that wouldn’t have worked or whatever. Just curious.

I know some info exists on his treatments based off of sources like the Art of books for the new movies. And that one interview where vaguely mentions exploring the “microscopic world” in his treatments. Not sure what that meant though.

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RogueLeader said:

Thanks for the reply Dre! I am kind of curious where you think TFA, and TLJ by extension, would have went if under Lucas’ reigns or closer to his original treatments. I’m not asking just so I can retort with why that wouldn’t have worked or whatever. Just curious.

I know some info exists on his treatments based off of sources like the Art of books for the new movies. And that one interview where vaguely mentions exploring the “microscopic world” in his treatments. Not sure what that meant though.

Thank you, good sir! 😃 I’m not sure the films would have been better, but I do have faith in Lucas’ imagination especially when combined with the talents of different writers and directors. I think one of the difficulties that the current generation of film makers face, is that they have to walk a fine line between trying to be original, and maintaining brand recognition. A consequence of this is, that the ST in some ways certainly breaks the mold, but in other ways feels like a retread. I don’t think Lucas would have had this problem, since he invented this universe, and could have thus shaped it in any way he wanted to. It would have featured the classic characters, but also had a different aesthetic, and delved into different unknown aspect of the Star Wars universe, including as you stated some sort of microscopic world.

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rodneyfaile said:

Rey is an autodidact. She has been on her own so long, that is just her way. I love it.

Only to a point. I don’t mind that she has fighting skills, or even heightened intuition as a result of her particular circumstances, but she ‘learns’ Jedi mind-tricks and MAJOR levitation skills immediately and without a shred of effort. She channels the Force in order to defeat Kylo Ren (a trained Force user) after only having heard about the Force that very morning (which, by the way, was because someone told JJ that Rey need a big ‘moment’ rather than being the result of a considered piece of storytelling). That’s fine - the sky is the limit I suppose. But to argue that this fits seamlessly with established lore is absurd. Yes, the lore has grown and evolved from day one. But training and discipline were always a big part of it. Luke says to Leia “you have that power too - in time you’ll learn to use it as I have” as opposed to “you have that power too - and it’ll appear like magic by tea-time. Now go levitate that broom…”

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It has already been demonstrated that Force abilities and proficiencies manifest in people before any Jedi training. What does most Jedi instruction consist of? Clear your mind. Focus. Do or do not, there is no try. I am not sure what other instruction would be involved in levitating a rock.

Luke was very unfocused. He was sheltered by his aunt and uncle and was not very self reliant. Rey is none of those things. She is very focused and extremely self reliant. She is confident and believes in herself.

No training can teach you a mind trick as well a having Kylo browse through her mind. Also when we see her use the Force, she is in distress, not swinging a lightsaber at a practice droid. People often exceed expectations in extreme situations.

A lot of the Jedi training also appears to be their philosophy. They attempt to mold people with Force abilities into their ways. Rey is a scavenger. She takes what she can use and leaves the rest. That might not sit well with some, but I have no problem with her making her own way. I love it actually.

I have no idea where they are going to go next with these new characters, but I can’t wait too see it.

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rodneyfaile said:

It has already been demonstrated that Force abilities and proficiencies manifest in people before any Jedi training. What does most Jedi instruction consist of? Clear your mind. Focus. Do or do not, there is no try. I am not sure what other instruction would be involved in levitating a rock.

Luke was very unfocused. He was sheltered by his aunt and uncle and was not very self reliant.

To me this is the sort of retrofitting I was talking about earlier. Both Anakin and Luke were presented to us as having immense talent, with Anakin having the greatest Force potential that had ever been recorded. Only now they seem barely average compared to Rey, who masters Force abilities in an instant, and by what was shown to us already stands on equal ground with Ben Solo in a matter of days. And so because of this the very talented Luke suddenly was always very unfocused, and the concept that any novice in the ways of the Force lacks focus and control no matter how great their talent is conveniently ignored, as is Lucas’ premise that any Jedi in training will face the temptation of the dark side, as their powers develop.

I’ll repeat the quote from Lucas I posted a few months ago with regards to the Force:

“The Force is really a way of seeing; it’s a way of being with life. It really has nothing to do with weapons. The Force gives you the power to have extra-sensory perception and to be able to see things and hear things, read minds and levitate things. It is said that certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different. The Force is a perception of the reality that exists around us. You have to come to learn it. It’s not something you just get. It takes many, many years…Anyone who studied and worked hard could learn it. But you would have to do it on your own.”

There’s just no denying Rey’s sudden mastery of the Force is completely inconsistent with what has previously been established. Of course it’s up to each of us to decide whether this is an issue in the overall enjoyment of the films, but it seems rather silly to pretend like no such inconsistencies exist, or to retcon continuity by arguing the Chosen One, and his son never were that talented to begin with.

Rey is none of those things. She is very focused and extremely self reliant. She is confident and believes in herself.

I would agree with the self-reliant part, but I would not say that she’s all that confident, or believes in herself. She searching for an identity, and freely admits she doesn’t understand what’s happening to her. Her running off to save Kylo from Snoke is as brash and reckless as Luke’s attempt to save his friends from Vader’s clutches in TESB, only somehow Luke ends up hanging upside down below a city in the clouds minus one limb praying to be saved, while Rey conveniently escapes in Snoke’s shuttle, and arrives in time to save her friends with an awesome display of the Force.

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You can argue that Rey had better intuition or less skills with people which made her somehow better at the force, but it doesn’t matter. The real problem here is I am going into Epiosde 9 rooting for Kylo Ren, because he’s the underdog. After two face offs Rey has nearly killed Kylo both times.

Maul- A Star Wars Story

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It’s not retrofitting to say Luke was whiny and unfocused. He was whiny and unfocused in 1977. Just because Rey defeated a seriously wounded and emotionally compromised Kylo Ren does not mean she is as skilled as him, much less a master.

Just because Rey does something, doesn’t mean anyone can.

Is her journey very different than what we’ve seen before? Absolutely! But it’s crazy to think every force user in the galaxy took the exact same path. I like seeing something different. I doubt her way is all that original considering all the Force users that came before her, just we have never seen their stories. I certainly don’t mind being told a story I haven’t heard before.

She is searching for an identity. I think that is a side effect of her isolation. The same environment that gave her confidence and focus in order to survive also left her with a feeling of loneliness and not belonging. I think she has her head on right and sees her place in the Resistance at the end of TLJ. Can’t wait to see what happens next!

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DrDre said:

I would agree with the self-reliant part, but I would not say that she’s all that confident, or believes in herself. She searching for an identity, and freely admits she doesn’t understand what’s happening to her. Her running off to save Kylo from Snoke is as brash and reckless as Luke’s attempt to save his friends from Vader’s clutches in TESB, only somehow Luke ends up hanging upside down below a city in the clouds minus one limb praying to be saved, while Rey conveniently escapes in Snoke’s shuttle, and arrives in time to save her friends with an awesome display of the Force.

This is one of my biggest problems with the sequel trilogy. It’s not necessarily Rey’s quick grasp of Jedi techniques or that she’s overpowered. It’s that she (the main protagonist of the movies) is never, ever, ever in trouble. She’s never in a situation in which she needs the help of her friends. She’s never in a situation where the audience worries about her and I think that’s kind of a barrier to the audience really connecting with her.

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pleasehello said:

DrDre said:

I would agree with the self-reliant part, but I would not say that she’s all that confident, or believes in herself. She searching for an identity, and freely admits she doesn’t understand what’s happening to her. Her running off to save Kylo from Snoke is as brash and reckless as Luke’s attempt to save his friends from Vader’s clutches in TESB, only somehow Luke ends up hanging upside down below a city in the clouds minus one limb praying to be saved, while Rey conveniently escapes in Snoke’s shuttle, and arrives in time to save her friends with an awesome display of the Force.

This is one of my biggest problems with the sequel trilogy. It’s not necessarily Rey’s quick grasp of Jedi techniques or that she’s overpowered. It’s that she (the main protagonist of the movies) is never, ever, ever in trouble. She’s never in a situation in which she needs the help of her friends.

Never, ever, ever in trouble? 😉

For TFA, until she ‘let in the Force’ during the saber battle with Kylo it looked like she was lost… Nor did it look great during the interrogation scene with Kylo before that (as well as being somewhat easily captured by him in the forest - being frozen mid-air).

The Throne Room with Snoke in TLJ - completely out of her depth and about to be easily killed until Kylo turns against his master, and seemed to me she was in trouble vs the many Guards until she teamed up with Kylo against them. She required Luke’s help to teach her what the Force was actually about, prior to this.

A little patience goes a long way on this old-school Rebel base. If you are having issues finding what you are looking for, these will be of some help…

Welcome to the OriginalTrilogy.com | Introduce yourself in here | Useful info within : About : Help : Site Rules : Fan Project Rules : Announcements
How do I do this?’ on the OriginalTrilogy.com; some info & answers + FAQs - includes info on how to search for projects and threads on the OT•com

A Project Index for Star Wars Preservations (Harmy’s Despecialized & 4K77/80/83 etc) : A Project Index for Star Wars Fan Edits (adywan & Hal 9000 etc)

… and take your time to look around this site before posting - to get a feel for this place. Don’t just lazily make yet another thread asking for projects.

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oojason said:

pleasehello said:

DrDre said:

I would agree with the self-reliant part, but I would not say that she’s all that confident, or believes in herself. She searching for an identity, and freely admits she doesn’t understand what’s happening to her. Her running off to save Kylo from Snoke is as brash and reckless as Luke’s attempt to save his friends from Vader’s clutches in TESB, only somehow Luke ends up hanging upside down below a city in the clouds minus one limb praying to be saved, while Rey conveniently escapes in Snoke’s shuttle, and arrives in time to save her friends with an awesome display of the Force.

This is one of my biggest problems with the sequel trilogy. It’s not necessarily Rey’s quick grasp of Jedi techniques or that she’s overpowered. It’s that she (the main protagonist of the movies) is never, ever, ever in trouble. She’s never in a situation in which she needs the help of her friends.

Never, ever, ever in trouble? 😉

For TFA, until she ‘let in the Force’ during the saber battle with Kylo it looked like she was lost… Nor did it look great during the interrogation scene with Kylo before that (as well as being somewhat easily captured by him in the forest - being frozen mid-air).

The Throne Room with Snoke in TLJ - completely out of her depth and about to be easily killed until Kylo turns against his master, and seemed to me she was in trouble vs the many Guards until she teamed up with Kylo against them. She required Luke’s help to teach her what the Force was actually about, prior to this.

It’s interesting how similar TFA and TLJ are in this regard. Both times, Rey is captured and interrogated in a FO installation while Finn with the help of friends successfully infiltrates said installation, though never discovers precisely where she’s being held and ends up not having needed to bother since Rey rescues herself anyway. Then in the final battle of each movie Finn is over-matched and about to be killed when Rey swoops in and saves the day, first using skills honed on Jakku then by tapping into the Force.

Let’s see if JJ goes three for three.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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oojason said:

pleasehello said:

DrDre said:

I would agree with the self-reliant part, but I would not say that she’s all that confident, or believes in herself. She searching for an identity, and freely admits she doesn’t understand what’s happening to her. Her running off to save Kylo from Snoke is as brash and reckless as Luke’s attempt to save his friends from Vader’s clutches in TESB, only somehow Luke ends up hanging upside down below a city in the clouds minus one limb praying to be saved, while Rey conveniently escapes in Snoke’s shuttle, and arrives in time to save her friends with an awesome display of the Force.

This is one of my biggest problems with the sequel trilogy. It’s not necessarily Rey’s quick grasp of Jedi techniques or that she’s overpowered. It’s that she (the main protagonist of the movies) is never, ever, ever in trouble. She’s never in a situation in which she needs the help of her friends.

Never, ever, ever in trouble? 😉

For TFA, until she ‘let in the Force’ during the saber battle with Kylo it looked like she was lost… Nor did it look great during the interrogation scene with Kylo before that (as well as being somewhat easily captured by him in the forest - being frozen mid-air).

The Throne Room with Snoke in TLJ - completely out of her depth and about to be easily killed until Kylo turns against his master, and seemed to me she was in trouble vs the many Guards until she teamed up with Kylo against them. She required Luke’s help to teach her what the Force was actually about, prior to this.

Ha! A bit hyperbolic I guess. The throne room scene is the only time she ever really needs someone’s help to get out of a tricky spot. She has no shortage of internal struggle, which is great. But at the end of the day, her self-reliance (and there’s nothing wrong with self reliance) doesn’t make for great drama, nor does it make her very relatable. I’ve never felt that she was in any real, imminent peril.

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rodneyfaile said:

It has already been demonstrated that Force abilities and proficiencies manifest in people before any Jedi training. What does most Jedi instruction consist of? Clear your mind. Focus. Do or do not, there is no try. I am not sure what other instruction would be involved in levitating a rock.

Luke was very unfocused. He was sheltered by his aunt and uncle and was not very self reliant. Rey is none of those things. She is very focused and extremely self reliant. She is confident and believes in herself.

Luke was incredibly confident. He was naive (as is Rey) but he had no lack of confidence. Look at the way he (clumsily) facilitated Leia’s rescue, or was the only guy on Yavin 4 who didn’t flinch at the size of the DS exhaust port. Look at the status he had acquired by TESB as a strong (and respected) military leader. Look at his insistence that he could become a Jedi despite Yoda’s dressing him down during their first meeting.

The problem was twofold - he was quick to anger and impatience, and secondly learning to use the Force is/was established as being really difficult. That’s the appeal of the Force as a narrative tool. It’s like martial arts in the Karate Kid. You don’t just switch it on because you feel like it, no matter how confident or tough or naturally gifted you are. That’s the ‘lesson’ of the OT - that just being a hot pilot or good fighter does not a Jedi make. Luke learned this the hard way.

I like the idea of Rey as something of a feral Jedi, but it’s as if the writers of these films aren’t giving the whole thing much thought beyond “hey, let’s have her do cool Jedi stuff”. Yoda expressed obvious amusement at Luke’s notion that a Jedi Master would automatically be a ‘great warrior’. Now this seems redundant. If you’re confident and can wave a stick, then mastery is just around the corner.

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DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

Haarspalter said:
So Star Wars is now a learning-lessons-about-life-meta-documentary which uses a fictional space fantasy fairy tale as a backdrop some old bearded guy invented in the 70s?

Meh.

Star Wars should be about escapism, not realism.

Sounds like you didn’t understand the other movies either.

I don’t understand why this is needed. I didn’t like TLJ for a whole host of reasons, but I’m not going to tell you you don’t understand Star Wars for liking what I consider to be a deeply flawed film, that puts a post-modern perspective on a modern myth, by turning the saga into a meta commentary on itself, and has the characters in the mythology question the merits of their own reality. You might just accept that Star Wars is different things to different people. It’s fine that you consider TLJ a great film, and you’ve stated the reasons why, but many others including myself feel the ST and particulary TLJ weakens the overall saga, and its mythology as a whole for the reasons stated above, and the fact that it resets the galaxy to an Empire vs rebels conflict without proper context, or explanation to give us an alternate reality version of the OT, where great effort is taken to push a number of new characters to the foreground at the expense of the old.

Forgive me if I only focus on this paragraph, but after reading it I felt a couple of things needed to be answered. First, this is a new trilogy and it is supposed to focus on new characters and push the old into supporting roles. That was the vision of it from the get go. That is what Lucas told Hamill 30 years ago. The role we see for Luke, Han, and Leia is exactly what it is supposed to be. This is not their time any longer. That is the entire point of setting it 30 years later. Each trilogy is a different era of a much larger story. The OT is the core story - the rebellion and redemption. It is the classic myth in origin. The PT is the back story, the history. It is stilted and old fashioned in tone and depicts the events before and during the fall. The ST is now the new generation. This is Rey, Poe, Finn, and Kylo’s story. Han, Luke, and Leia are old people passing on the torch and sharing their wisdom. It is not their trilogy so the new characters are supposed to be pushed to the foreground at their expense. This is not Heir to Empire where the old group were still in their prime.

This is where what I keep talking about with expectations comes in. Just from that one sentence that you ended that paragraph with I can see you expected a new trilogy with the old characters and that was never the plan. Lucas never intended the third trilogy to be about 3 old farts saving things again. They were supposed to be the familiar faces to introduce the new heroes, and that is exactly what we got. In all the old myths and legends, there are sequels for a new generation where the old heroes are the ones who have become the mentors to the new heroes. Coming into this trilogy with any expectations for the cast of the OT to have big roles was setting yourself up for disappointment. It was never going to happen. That was the books of the EU (now Legends). This is something new. Something to bind the other 6 films together and bring the saga to a conclusion. This is a new tale of good vs. evil with something else to say. I think the point will be clear when IX comes out. But it is obvious from the way you describe what you didn’t like about TLJ that you had expected something different and a lot of your dislike lies in that. You have made some other really good points, but every time I read your posts on TLJ, it comes back to what about Luke, Han, and Leia you didn’t like and how it didn’t meet your expectations. And what you don’t like about their part in the ST is that they were derailed from where we left them in ROTJ by what happened to Ben Solo/Kylo Ren. That was the core of TFA and TLJ and as I understand it, George Lucas’s treatment for the ST.

As for the familiar feel to the two sides, that is often the way of history. Abrams did the setup and yet the ire is aimed at Johnson. Abrams failed to give us the little details Lucas loved to throw in to paint the picture. But we are stuck with what Abrams left us with in TFA. But it also isn’t that unreasonable. There has to be some conflict (it is called Star Wars after all) and making a weak republic and eliminating its government and fleet were a simple way to start the story. Abrams could have done better setting things up, but in the end, both Abrams and Johnson are focusing on the things that really matter - the characters that take us to the end of the Saga. What that end will be we don’t know and can only guess at this point.

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yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

Haarspalter said:
So Star Wars is now a learning-lessons-about-life-meta-documentary which uses a fictional space fantasy fairy tale as a backdrop some old bearded guy invented in the 70s?

Meh.

Star Wars should be about escapism, not realism.

Sounds like you didn’t understand the other movies either.

I don’t understand why this is needed. I didn’t like TLJ for a whole host of reasons, but I’m not going to tell you you don’t understand Star Wars for liking what I consider to be a deeply flawed film, that puts a post-modern perspective on a modern myth, by turning the saga into a meta commentary on itself, and has the characters in the mythology question the merits of their own reality. You might just accept that Star Wars is different things to different people. It’s fine that you consider TLJ a great film, and you’ve stated the reasons why, but many others including myself feel the ST and particulary TLJ weakens the overall saga, and its mythology as a whole for the reasons stated above, and the fact that it resets the galaxy to an Empire vs rebels conflict without proper context, or explanation to give us an alternate reality version of the OT, where great effort is taken to push a number of new characters to the foreground at the expense of the old.

Forgive me if I only focus on this paragraph, but after reading it I felt a couple of things needed to be answered. First, this is a new trilogy and it is supposed to focus on new characters and push the old into supporting roles. That was the vision of it from the get go. That is what Lucas told Hamill 30 years ago. The role we see for Luke, Han, and Leia is exactly what it is supposed to be. This is not their time any longer. That is the entire point of setting it 30 years later. Each trilogy is a different era of a much larger story. The OT is the core story - the rebellion and redemption. It is the classic myth in origin. The PT is the back story, the history. It is stilted and old fashioned in tone and depicts the events before and during the fall. The ST is now the new generation. This is Rey, Poe, Finn, and Kylo’s story. Han, Luke, and Leia are old people passing on the torch and sharing their wisdom. It is not their trilogy so the new characters are supposed to be pushed to the foreground at their expense. This is not Heir to Empire where the old group were still in their prime.

This is where what I keep talking about with expectations comes in. Just from that one sentence that you ended that paragraph with I can see you expected a new trilogy with the old characters and that was never the plan. Lucas never intended the third trilogy to be about 3 old farts saving things again. They were supposed to be the familiar faces to introduce the new heroes, and that is exactly what we got. In all the old myths and legends, there are sequels for a new generation where the old heroes are the ones who have become the mentors to the new heroes. Coming into this trilogy with any expectations for the cast of the OT to have big roles was setting yourself up for disappointment. It was never going to happen. That was the books of the EU (now Legends). This is something new. Something to bind the other 6 films together and bring the saga to a conclusion. This is a new tale of good vs. evil with something else to say. I think the point will be clear when IX comes out. But it is obvious from the way you describe what you didn’t like about TLJ that you had expected something different and a lot of your dislike lies in that. You have made some other really good points, but every time I read your posts on TLJ, it comes back to what about Luke, Han, and Leia you didn’t like and how it didn’t meet your expectations. And what you don’t like about their part in the ST is that they were derailed from where we left them in ROTJ by what happened to Ben Solo/Kylo Ren. That was the core of TFA and TLJ and as I understand it, George Lucas’s treatment for the ST.

As for the familiar feel to the two sides, that is often the way of history. Abrams did the setup and yet the ire is aimed at Johnson. Abrams failed to give us the little details Lucas loved to throw in to paint the picture. But we are stuck with what Abrams left us with in TFA. But it also isn’t that unreasonable. There has to be some conflict (it is called Star Wars after all) and making a weak republic and eliminating its government and fleet were a simple way to start the story. Abrams could have done better setting things up, but in the end, both Abrams and Johnson are focusing on the things that really matter - the characters that take us to the end of the Saga. What that end will be we don’t know and can only guess at this point.

You misunderstand me. I did not expect the old guard to be the focus of this story, but I don’t like the idea of turning the old crew into a bunch of losers, such that the new guard can shine by comparison. The entire outcome of the OT and much of the character arcs therein were undone without much context or explanation to reset the story to a highly similar premise of Empire vs rebels/Jedi vs Sith. That to me is not natural story progression, but a soft reboot.

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Han Solo, General Leia, and Master Skywalker are not losers.

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rodneyfaile said:

Han Solo, General Leia, and Master Skywalker are not losers.

Han went from a hero and General in the Rebellion, and being ready for a committed relationship with Leia to going back to smuggling, abandoning his wife and son, and then got stabbed go death by his son in a last ditch effort to save him. Luke went from being the last Jedi, who redeemed his father to falling from his faith completely, just wanting to die, abandoning his family, friends, and the galaxy as a whole, only to die from Force exhaustion in a last ditch effort to save the handful of remaining rebels. Leia went from being one of the leaders of the Rebel Alliance and of the New Republic, while starting a family to being a general of a band of rebels that can fit in the Millenium Falcon having lost her husband and son. In the context of where they were at the end of the OT, each of the big three lost in a major way, and worst of all after building a powerful friendship over the course of three films would not share a single scene together in the new trilogy with Luke only becoming aware of the death of his best friend after the fact.