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Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 148

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I’m just tired of people asserting things as absolute truth about the ST that make me thing we’re watching different movies.

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DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

Why does TFA take three days tops?

It doesn’t. It’s at least three days. Not that it matters terribly. And there’s a thread for this:
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/How-much-time-does-each-movie-cover/id/50630

Movie time is weird.

We see almost one full day on Jakku, from the middle of the night to sunset. Then the next morning Rey takes BB-8 to town, and they escape. Within what seems like 20 minutes of escaping they are found by Han, and immediately thereafter they go to Maz’s castle, a trip that takes the length of their fussing over the hyperdrive and discussion of the map (which starts a pattern that Hyperdrive trips in this movie don’t take that long, generally). At Maz’s castle, they have time for a meal and then they’re attacked. After they go to the Resistance events happen rapidly, with Leia sending a scout ship to Starkiller before she even looks at the map from BB-8. But then she does and within the ensuing conversation the scout ship returns and they prepare their plan of attack, which again takes no more than a few minutes. Then they’re at Starkiller Base for the duration (a few hours, tops), then it’s back to the Resistance base. Maybe the third day happens after the destruction of the Starkiller, but it can’t happen too long afterwards because the First Order knows their location and would be rushing to prevent them from escaping their base.

So here’s how I see it, with large potential variations because movie:
Jakku - 1.5 days
Han to Maz - 3 to 5 hours
Resistance Base - 3 to 8 hours
Starkiller Base - 4 to 7 hours
Resistance Base - 2 to 16 hours, depending on whether or not night passes between scenes

So the lower bound of that time is two days, with the potential for 3 at the upper bound.

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Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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“Worrying” (maybe too strong a term) about this kind of stuff is also weird.

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 (Edited)

Jedi powers, as with any skill, take time to master once learned. Raw talent can be disguised as mastery, but can still be refined and improved. Rey is not at a point where she can be considered a Jedi. She saw how Kylo did things and copied him. And now that I think about it, Kylo trying to force her to reveal things and her fighting back and reading his mind, could have resulted in her absorbing some of his Jedi training. But it means she knows these things are possible. So not just her life on Jakku, but her reading of Kylo’s mind has given her far more than Luke had to start with. I mean, it was after that point in the movie that she started doing things. She pulled the memory of Darth Vader out of his mind and how he wanted to be like him. As to how she managed that, I would have to say raw talent and instinct. Kylo started probing her and she could feel it (you can see it on her face) and she was able to block him and then turn around the do the same to him. He wasn’t ready for it and was quite surprised (again, you could see it on his face) and failed to block her.

But while Rey shows is that she has learned these force skills, she has not mastered any of them. She has used them once or twice and needs guidance on how to use them. Not just how to literally use the powers, but the ethics of using them. Only when you have the ethics down and the philosophy of being a Jedi can you be considered a Jedi. Until then she is just a very powerful Padawn like Anakin. But to be perfectly honest, I believe that JJ Abrams took one huge shortcut with Rey. She was created as a Jedi from the start. She has ethics, can fight, can fly, and has disciple. Even without force powers, her character was basically a Jedi already. She just needs to complete what she needs on top of who she is. Her arc in TFA was beaking from Jakku and being willing to grow. Her arc in TLJ is facing that her parents were nobody special in the galactic scheme of things and that they abandoned her. Luke is in TLJ, who she needed to break her dependence on others. Rather than wait for Luke to change his mind, she takes the initiative and steals the Jedi texts and leaves to teach herself. From where she was at the start, that is a huge growth for her character. Yeah, the force seems to come easy for her, but other things aren’t so easy and that is what her story is.

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TV’s Frink said:

“Worrying” (maybe too strong a term) about this kind of stuff is also weird.

I’m not too concerned with the time which passes within the movie - ANH took place in less than a week as well. But the bigger issue is the lack of a time jump between movies, which is where you can hide a lot of skill progression.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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 (Edited)

NeverarGreat said:

TV’s Frink said:

“Worrying” (maybe too strong a term) about this kind of stuff is also weird.

I’m not too concerned with the time which passes within the movie - ANH took place in less than a week as well. But the bigger issue is the lack of a time jump between movies, which is where you can hide a lot of skill progression.

Agreed. This is a technique Johnson should have kept from the previous trilogies. Abrams made it tough with TFA’s ending, but not impossible.

I still don’t like Rey using mind tricks as quickly as she did, but I could accept TLJ Rey more readily if some time had passed after TFA.

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MTFBWY…A

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Here are two links from the same critic. The first discusses weaknesses in RJ’s story, and argues that TLJ’s biggest weakness is, that the story doesn’t go anywhere. There are no consequences.

Short summary:

"In The Last Jedi, a lot happens. But not a lot happens for long. Leia’s sudden and unexpected death only proceeds her jarring return to life.

Kylo Ren’s betrayal of Snoke, which leads to a team-up with Rey and himself against Snoke’s guards, implies his redemption… But it isn’t long lasting as his actions hardly reflect his intentions. After the fight, he has to explain himself to Rey, and how they still aren’t on the same side.

This is a classic break from “show, don’t tell.” Kylo has to tell us his motives for the scene to make sense. He essentially retcons the entire sequence, because it might as well not have happened. The scene ends up telling us nothing new. Kylo Ren is a bad guy. But we were already aware of that. Actions should speak for a character, but in the most powerful scene of the film, they don’t.

Lastly, when Luke finally faces Kylo, there’s a moment where we’re meant to believe this is the end for the Jedi Master. It seems as if Luke has accepted his fate as Kylo runs toward him with his blade drawn. Luke literally tells him something similar to what Ben Kenobi tells Darth Vader: “If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.”

Luke seems fearless. But then, we realize Luke has nothing to fear after all. He’s not even actually there. This scene is meant for us to anticipate Luke’s death, only for it to be revealed he’s fine… Only for it to be revealed a moment later that he dies anyway."

https://medium.com/@timothymably/the-last-jedi-is-poor-storytelling-d22e45427278

In the second link the writer gives his thoughts on how TLJ could have been improved, largely hinging on the idea, that Rey’s parents were among those that betrayed Luke along with Ben Solo, and Luke was forced to kill her parents in the ensuing fight. The writer cleverly provides Rey with strong motivations for joining the dark side to avenge her parents, whilst also providing a backstory for Snoke, that ultimately sheds a light on Luke’s Jedi teachings, that in his version of events rejected much of the Jedi dogma in favour of building on Luke’s own experiences redeeming his father (going so far as to hide the ancient Jedi texts from his students), which was then used by Snoke to tempt the young Jedi students with false promises of learning the true Jedi faith. It is actually a pretty good read, and to me highlights several of the story issues, and the lack of proper character motivations, that imo plague TLJ:

https://medium.com/@timothymably/reimagining-the-last-jedi-luke-killed-reys-parents-2ec7f32aa729

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So this thread has basically turned into “let’s tear into every single aspect of TLJ”.

Honestly I never expected this movie to generate such a negative reaction, and I’m in a very lonely position of absolutely loving it.

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fmalover said:

So this thread has basically turned into “let’s tear into every single aspect of TLJ”.

Honestly I never expected this movie to generate such a negative reaction, and I’m in a very lonely position of absolutely loving it.

You aren’t alone. I consider it the best since the OT. I think I finally have to rank it higher than Rogue One because I want to watch it more. I love all the story arcs and the very excellent character development.

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yotsuya said:

fmalover said:

So this thread has basically turned into “let’s tear into every single aspect of TLJ”.

Honestly I never expected this movie to generate such a negative reaction, and I’m in a very lonely position of absolutely loving it.

You aren’t alone. I consider it the best since the OT. I think I finally have to rank it higher than Rogue One because I want to watch it more. I love all the story arcs and the very excellent character development.

Same here. You Are Not Alone.

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The notion you’re alone in loving this film is quite LOL-worthy. If that were the case, this thread wouldn’t be locked in a neverending grudge match between the critics & defenders.

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fmalover said:

So this thread has basically turned into “let’s tear into every single aspect of TLJ”.

Honestly I never expected this movie to generate such a negative reaction, and I’m in a very lonely position of absolutely loving it.

That’s fine, and I would be interested to know why you love it so much. I consider TLJ to be a mixed bag of some great ingredients, and plenty of undercooked ones. Overall it’s a visually stunning, somewhat bloated, but entertaining movie in my view when seen on its own terms, but the worst Star Wars movie to date for me on a number of levels. However, I do think we’ve not seen enough positive critical analysis of TLJ in this thread.

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8 months later people are still arguing over this.

But 8 months later it’s still in the Blu-ray chart.

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Mocata said:

8 months later people are still arguing over this.

But 8 months later it’s still in the Blu-ray chart.

If a franchise has hundreds of millions of fans and only half of them like and buy the latest movie, that’s still a lot of copies sold. It doesn’t necessarily follow that it was a great movie or not divisive.

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MTFBWY…A

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DrDre said:

fmalover said:

So this thread has basically turned into “let’s tear into every single aspect of TLJ”.

Honestly I never expected this movie to generate such a negative reaction, and I’m in a very lonely position of absolutely loving it.

That’s fine, and I would be interested to know why you love it so much. I consider TLJ to be a mixed bag of some great ingredients, and plenty of undercooked ones. Overall it’s a visually stunning, somewhat bloated, but entertaining movie in my view when seen on its own terms, but the worst Star Wars movie to date for me on a number of levels. However, I do think we’ve not seen enough positive critical analysis of TLJ in this thread.

Where I come from is seeing the Star Wars saga as a series of movies done a bit out of order but done in a way that makes them feel more like the numerical order rather than the production order. The OT is very gritty. Very 70’s. But at the same time, very 50’s in that Lucas emulated the great 50’s epics and samurai films. When he went back and did the PT, he gave it more of a classic era feel. Very 30’s and 40’s. The ST therefore should feel new and in a more modern style. I think Kennedy should hold a tighter rein on the directors and not give them as much leeway. These two movies of the ST have turned out very different. Yet I think the first two movies of the OT were very different. It was Return of the Jedi that melded them into a unified whole. IX could still mold the ST unto a unified whole if it is done right (this is Abrams we are talking about so I have my doubts).

Within that, I find TFA to be the odd movie. I feel Abrams was not the right choice and that his first outing was too safe. Rian Johnson comes in and he treats it like any movie and let’s the story take him where it wants to go. He versed himself in the meat that fed George’s creativity - war movies, classics, samurai cinema. His prior films are very much like Irvin Kershner’s. He wrote the script before TFA came out - before the fans started analyzing and predicting.

When I look at TLJ that way, I don’t see something that doesn’t fit. I see something that fits incredibly well. I can see where the story may be going. To me that makes for a great middle chapter. I found the crafting of the Rey/Luke plot to be outstanding. He took our hero and his TFA established trials and tapped into the Luke of the OT and his flaws and accentuated them based on a horrible event. And in that character he gave Rey exactly what her character needed. She didn’t need just a trainer, but someone to make her face her problems. At the same time, her reaction to Luke was exactly what he needed to shake him out of his funk. So on both sides there is character growth. Rey faces the reality that her parents abandoned her and that they were no one significant (we are never told they did not have any connection with the force, just that they were nobody). Luke faces his failure with Ben/Kylo and the very real possibility that Rey genuinely needs him and that he could help her. Both characters grow.

Poe was a throw away character in TFA. He’s supposed to be the best pilot in the Resistance, but other than that he had no character journey at all. In TLJ, he starts out as the same brash pilot and is knocked down by first Leia and then Holdo for not thinking things through. Both of them see Poe’s potential (a little bit of dialog between them) and he gets the lesson they were trying to teach him - that to be a leader means sometimes pulling back and being cautious.

Finn starts out still running. In TFA he was running from the First Order and latched onto Rey. In TLJ he is still running and latched onto Rey until Rose opens his eyes to the cause of the Resistance and Finn takes it on as his own. His death trying to destroy the cannon would be also destroy his character development in the trilogy so Rose saving his life is not only a necessary thing, but what she says and the following events solidify the Finn has grown and is a new person.

The character growth of all the characters puts them in place to be who they need to be for IX. That is the point of this film. It is the middle chapter. It isn’t supposed to tell the start or end of the tale, but the middle. It bridges between the opening chapter and the closing chapter while still telling a significant story. When you analize it compared to TESB, there are sizable differences, but one major similarity - both serve as the middle and do it well. That is something the PT is lacking. It has two starts. TPM is a beginning on two levels. The beginning of the saga as a whole and the beginning of the first trilogy. It is just an introduction to Anakin’s story which doesn’t really start until ATOC when he is truly one of the main characters. That film failed on many levels and brings down the entire PT with its failures. I think TFA has similar issues. They were just obscured because we didn’t know where the story might go. In my ordering of the saga films, I think TFA is actually the worst movie. Sure the character vignettes are great, but that does not make a good Star Wars film. TLJ digs into the characters and challenges them. Each character changes as a result and is closer to who they need to be in IX.

As a former RPG player of the West End RPG, I found nothing about TLJ to raise an eyebrow. The force powers were in line with the Star Wars extended canon (as in all the source books about the Jedi). Abrams stated that one thing he wanted was to make the force something that anyone can use - the feeling he had back in 77 when he watched the first film. RJ took that and emphasized that. Clone Wars and Rebels have had a similar emphasis. Sure, the Skywalker line is strong, but Jedi pop up everywhere before the Skywalkers came around. The PT Jedi don’t seem to procreate, leading virtually monastic lives. So the Jedi before TPM weren’t relying on family lineages for strong Jedi, but common people. Nobodies who happened to be strong in the force. To me the description Lucas and Hamill gave of Luke’s role in the PT was always going to be what we just got. I’d dare to say that RJ made Luke far more significant than Lucas had planned. I think Luke dying was always part of the PT.

In point after point, TLJ is a perfect ST middle chapter from my point of view. I was enthralled the first time I watched it and I have yet to see anything I object to. All that really means is that RJ and I are on the same page for what this chapter should do. I was disappointed by TFA, but not TLJ. I also wasn’t disappointed with Rogue One or Solo. So out of 7 movies made since the OT, I find the last three to be the best. To me they are the closest to the OT vision that I’ve lived with. I think ATOC and TFA are the worst with TPM and ROTS in the middle.

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NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

I find TFA to be the odd movie.

Episode 7 was always going to be odd.

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DrDre said:

Here are two links from the same critic. The first discusses weaknesses in RJ’s story, and argues that TLJ’s biggest weakness is, that the story doesn’t go anywhere. There are no consequences.

Short summary:

"In The Last Jedi, a lot happens. But not a lot happens for long. Leia’s sudden and unexpected death only proceeds her jarring return to life.

Kylo Ren’s betrayal of Snoke, which leads to a team-up with Rey and himself against Snoke’s guards, implies his redemption… But it isn’t long lasting as his actions hardly reflect his intentions. After the fight, he has to explain himself to Rey, and how they still aren’t on the same side.

This is a classic break from “show, don’t tell.” Kylo has to tell us his motives for the scene to make sense. He essentially retcons the entire sequence, because it might as well not have happened. The scene ends up telling us nothing new. Kylo Ren is a bad guy. But we were already aware of that. Actions should speak for a character, but in the most powerful scene of the film, they don’t.

Lastly, when Luke finally faces Kylo, there’s a moment where we’re meant to believe this is the end for the Jedi Master. It seems as if Luke has accepted his fate as Kylo runs toward him with his blade drawn. Luke literally tells him something similar to what Ben Kenobi tells Darth Vader: “If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.”

Luke seems fearless. But then, we realize Luke has nothing to fear after all. He’s not even actually there. This scene is meant for us to anticipate Luke’s death, only for it to be revealed he’s fine… Only for it to be revealed a moment later that he dies anyway."

Both these points seem incredibly pedantic and overinflated to me.

In the first instance, “show don’t tell” does not mean either that dialogue is redundant in cinema, or that actions and dialogue always have to be in perfect concert, especially regarding villains (who are often by nature duplicitous or unstable). The entire point of the throne room sequence is to set up an expectation (Kylo will side with Rey) that is then upended; in much the same way as the action at the end of ESB sets up an expectation (Vader wants to kill Luke) that is then contradicted by dialogue (“I am your father”) rather than action.

On the second point, he’s just being incredibly literal. The entire subtext of the dialogue is not that whether Luke will literally be struck down - Luke has already made it clear throughout the film that he does not fear death - but that in opposing him, Kylo ensures Luke’s reputation will echo throughout the galaxy and that thousands will be inspired by his example, which we see happen in the final scene.

To say there are no consequences to the events in the film is absurdly reductive, and frankly typical of the wilfully and uncharitably misreading “criticism” I’ve seen so much of about this film.

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djsmokingjam said:

DrDre said:

Here are two links from the same critic. The first discusses weaknesses in RJ’s story, and argues that TLJ’s biggest weakness is, that the story doesn’t go anywhere. There are no consequences.

Short summary:

"In The Last Jedi, a lot happens. But not a lot happens for long. Leia’s sudden and unexpected death only proceeds her jarring return to life.

Kylo Ren’s betrayal of Snoke, which leads to a team-up with Rey and himself against Snoke’s guards, implies his redemption… But it isn’t long lasting as his actions hardly reflect his intentions. After the fight, he has to explain himself to Rey, and how they still aren’t on the same side.

This is a classic break from “show, don’t tell.” Kylo has to tell us his motives for the scene to make sense. He essentially retcons the entire sequence, because it might as well not have happened. The scene ends up telling us nothing new. Kylo Ren is a bad guy. But we were already aware of that. Actions should speak for a character, but in the most powerful scene of the film, they don’t.

Lastly, when Luke finally faces Kylo, there’s a moment where we’re meant to believe this is the end for the Jedi Master. It seems as if Luke has accepted his fate as Kylo runs toward him with his blade drawn. Luke literally tells him something similar to what Ben Kenobi tells Darth Vader: “If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.”

Luke seems fearless. But then, we realize Luke has nothing to fear after all. He’s not even actually there. This scene is meant for us to anticipate Luke’s death, only for it to be revealed he’s fine… Only for it to be revealed a moment later that he dies anyway."

Both these points seem incredibly pedantic and overinflated to me.

In the first instance, “show don’t tell” does not mean either that dialogue is redundant in cinema, or that actions and dialogue always have to be in perfect concert, especially regarding villains (who are often by nature duplicitous or unstable). The entire point of the throne room sequence is to set up an expectation (Kylo will side with Rey) that is then upended; in much the same way as the action at the end of ESB sets up an expectation (Vader wants to kill Luke) that is then contradicted by dialogue (“I am your father”) rather than action.

I disagree. The expectation that Vader will kill Luke follows from the way his character is set up from the get go, namely he is the villain, and murderer of Luke’s father. The fact that he IS Luke’s father thus comes as a complete surprise. Kylo Ren has already been set up as the villain, and thus the twist, that he still is the villain after Rey and Kylo dispatch Snoke’s guards isn’t much of a reveal or surprise. Thus the movie ends where it started with Rey still the hero, and Kylo Ren still the villain having replaced Snoke, who’s treated as little more than a plot device. The author of the article is thus correct in my view, when he states that a lot happens, but with little consequences other than Kylo Ren replacing Snoke who TLJ largely makes redundant.

On the second point, he’s just being incredibly literal. The entire subtext of the dialogue is not that whether Luke will literally be struck down - Luke has already made it clear throughout the film that he does not fear death - but that in opposing him, Kylo ensures Luke’s reputation will echo throughout the galaxy and that thousands will be inspired by his example, which we see happen in the final scene.

Yes, and so Luke’s reputation is back to what it was before TLJ, that of a legend, which is the main criticism of the author. RJ shakes things up, and a lot happens in the story, but ultimately we more or less end up, where we started with the Resistance/rebels on the run from the FO, despite having won a symbolic victory (SKB’s destruction in TFA), Ben Solo has reaffirmed his villain status (which he also did in TFA by killing his father), Rey’s still a hero having learned to let go of her past (a lesson also given to her by Maz in TFA, when she tells her her parents aren’t coming back), and Luke’s back to being the legend he was after the defeat of the Empire.

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djsmokingjam said:

DrDre said:

Here are two links from the same critic. The first discusses weaknesses in RJ’s story, and argues that TLJ’s biggest weakness is, that the story doesn’t go anywhere. There are no consequences.

Short summary:

"In The Last Jedi, a lot happens. But not a lot happens for long. Leia’s sudden and unexpected death only proceeds her jarring return to life.

Kylo Ren’s betrayal of Snoke, which leads to a team-up with Rey and himself against Snoke’s guards, implies his redemption… But it isn’t long lasting as his actions hardly reflect his intentions. After the fight, he has to explain himself to Rey, and how they still aren’t on the same side.

This is a classic break from “show, don’t tell.” Kylo has to tell us his motives for the scene to make sense. He essentially retcons the entire sequence, because it might as well not have happened. The scene ends up telling us nothing new. Kylo Ren is a bad guy. But we were already aware of that. Actions should speak for a character, but in the most powerful scene of the film, they don’t.

Lastly, when Luke finally faces Kylo, there’s a moment where we’re meant to believe this is the end for the Jedi Master. It seems as if Luke has accepted his fate as Kylo runs toward him with his blade drawn. Luke literally tells him something similar to what Ben Kenobi tells Darth Vader: “If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.”

Luke seems fearless. But then, we realize Luke has nothing to fear after all. He’s not even actually there. This scene is meant for us to anticipate Luke’s death, only for it to be revealed he’s fine… Only for it to be revealed a moment later that he dies anyway."

Both these points seem incredibly pedantic and overinflated to me.

In the first instance, “show don’t tell” does not mean either that dialogue is redundant in cinema, or that actions and dialogue always have to be in perfect concert, especially regarding villains (who are often by nature duplicitous or unstable). The entire point of the throne room sequence is to set up an expectation (Kylo will side with Rey) that is then upended; in much the same way as the action at the end of ESB sets up an expectation (Vader wants to kill Luke) that is then contradicted by dialogue (“I am your father”) rather than action.

On the second point, he’s just being incredibly literal. The entire subtext of the dialogue is not that whether Luke will literally be struck down - Luke has already made it clear throughout the film that he does not fear death - but that in opposing him, Kylo ensures Luke’s reputation will echo throughout the galaxy and that thousands will be inspired by his example, which we see happen in the final scene.

To say there are no consequences to the events in the film is absurdly reductive, and frankly typical of the wilfully and uncharitably misreading “criticism” I’ve seen so much of about this film.

I think what the critic was trying to get at is that the story does its best to deflate its own most interesting ideas. There are obviously consequences and character progression, it’s just that these moments are ultimately not as consequential as we are first led to believe.

Leia is blown out into space, presumably to her death! But wait, she’s using the Force in a way we’ve never seen from her before! Has she had substantial training in those thirty years? Has the Force suddenly ‘awakened’ in her as well, making her the ‘new hope’ for the galaxy that Luke suggested in ROTJ?

No, sorry. It was just an instinctual reaction to her impending death and her Force powers will not be a big factor in the rest of the movie.

Kylo kills Snoke! Now he’s teaming up with Rey against the goofy red guards! Will he really turn to Rey’s side and will they strike out together in a new direction in order to prevent a repeat of Rebels vs Empire that we got in the previous trilogy?

No, sorry. Kylo’s still a bad egg and Rey still has a deep loyalty to the Jedi ideals (despite her teachers hating them) and the Resistance (despite knowing them for maybe a day at most). And it will be a Rebels vs Empire situation quite explicitly until the end of the movie.

You get the idea. The movie goes in some interesting directions, but it seems to make a point of teasing these truly interesting directions and pulling it back to something much more tame.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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djsmokingjam said:

DrDre said:

Here are two links from the same critic. The first discusses weaknesses in RJ’s story, and argues that TLJ’s biggest weakness is, that the story doesn’t go anywhere. There are no consequences.

Short summary:

"In The Last Jedi, a lot happens. But not a lot happens for long. Leia’s sudden and unexpected death only proceeds her jarring return to life.

Kylo Ren’s betrayal of Snoke, which leads to a team-up with Rey and himself against Snoke’s guards, implies his redemption… But it isn’t long lasting as his actions hardly reflect his intentions. After the fight, he has to explain himself to Rey, and how they still aren’t on the same side.

This is a classic break from “show, don’t tell.” Kylo has to tell us his motives for the scene to make sense. He essentially retcons the entire sequence, because it might as well not have happened. The scene ends up telling us nothing new. Kylo Ren is a bad guy. But we were already aware of that. Actions should speak for a character, but in the most powerful scene of the film, they don’t.

Lastly, when Luke finally faces Kylo, there’s a moment where we’re meant to believe this is the end for the Jedi Master. It seems as if Luke has accepted his fate as Kylo runs toward him with his blade drawn. Luke literally tells him something similar to what Ben Kenobi tells Darth Vader: “If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.”

Luke seems fearless. But then, we realize Luke has nothing to fear after all. He’s not even actually there. This scene is meant for us to anticipate Luke’s death, only for it to be revealed he’s fine… Only for it to be revealed a moment later that he dies anyway."

Both these points seem incredibly pedantic and overinflated to me.

In the first instance, “show don’t tell” does not mean either that dialogue is redundant in cinema, or that actions and dialogue always have to be in perfect concert, especially regarding villains (who are often by nature duplicitous or unstable). The entire point of the throne room sequence is to set up an expectation (Kylo will side with Rey) that is then upended; in much the same way as the action at the end of ESB sets up an expectation (Vader wants to kill Luke) that is then contradicted by dialogue (“I am your father”) rather than action.

On the second point, he’s just being incredibly literal. The entire subtext of the dialogue is not that whether Luke will literally be struck down - Luke has already made it clear throughout the film that he does not fear death - but that in opposing him, Kylo ensures Luke’s reputation will echo throughout the galaxy and that thousands will be inspired by his example, which we see happen in the final scene.

To say there are no consequences to the events in the film is absurdly reductive, and frankly typical of the wilfully and uncharitably misreading “criticism” I’ve seen so much of about this film.

Just want you to know there are many who agree with you, but we have tired of posting in this thread. Excellent points.