Has Star Wars finally "jumped the shark"? — Page 5

DrDre said:

Shopping Maul said:

With regards to Rey, whatever fanboy misgivings I may personally have about the writing, I do think its great that Kathleen K. and co. have given young girls their own Luke Skywalker to look up to and dress up as.

I consider the statement, that young girls cannot relate to or identify with Luke Skywalker, because he’s male to be inherently sexist. The character of Luke Skywalker is an avatar for the desires and hopes of both men and women. As such, it shouldn’t matter, if the character is portrayed by a man or a woman. Lucas wasn’t trying to cater to a specific gender group when he created the character. Consequently, Luke could have been a girl, and the story would have played out in exactly the same way. The only time the gender of a character matters, is when that character, has specific traits, that are gender specific, or if you want to specifically relate to a specific gender group. In all other cases casting should be driven by having equal representation of men and women, not by the sexist notion, that men can only relate to men, and women only relate to women.

I agree. That line of thinking IS inherently sexist!

I’m a female, and I never felt like the OT wasn’t made “for me.” It was made for everyone. I didn’t need to be catered to by seeing an abundance of females on the screen to “relate to.” I identified most closely with Luke—NOT Leia, in part because I had a giant crush on him! I had posters of Mark Hamill all over my bedroom walls…not Carrie Fisher. But I also identified with the fact that Luke didn’t know his parents & was kind of a fish-out-of-water, which is the way I’ve felt most of my life, also not having known my father very well since he died when I was very young.

What was great about the OT was that it wasn’t trying to second-guess the audience. I can’t remember who said it, it may have been Spielberg (or maybe even Lucas), but some famous director said something to the effect of “once you start second-guessing the audience, it’s over.” I think that’s what has happened with the SW franchise now. The films are no longer coming from an organic place, they’re being made by trying to cater to certain demographics and the anticipated $$$ in mind. Those are not the ingredients of creatively-successful films.

As a kid I always related more to Princess Leia and liked her the best. She was rude, bossy, funny, and didn’t take any shit. (Just like me! Except I’m not funny.) I was never, even as an eight-year-old, shallow enough to be bothered that she wasn’t male.

Handman said:

Just piping in to say that is one of the best posts I’ve read here in awhile, Mielr.

Thanks! 😃

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

I don’t remember anyone saying that girls couldn’t relate to Luke.

I do know my daughters identify much more strongly with Rey.

“I think there was an assumption being made for quite a while that girls didn’t care about Star Wars or that girls weren’t identifying with characters like Luke Skywalker or Han Solo; they were only identifying with Princess Leia or characters in other movies along those lines. And you know I think that it is not just Star Wars that is making this change, I think culturally, I want to believe that there is real movement and momentum beginning to happen where those kinds of lines are being blurred and people are recognizing in the creative community that um little girls, and little boys, for that matter are crossing over into identifying with lots of different characters and lots of different stories; And we as filmmakers should not be the ones providing those boundaries we should just tell the stories and they should be open a wide variety of not only gender but ethnicity. and that is another thing we are really working to do is to make the casting reflect society in a much more equal basis.”

• Kathleen Kennedy, President of Lucasfilm (2012 to Present),

Star Wars Celebration 2016

As I interpret Kennedy’s words she’s literally saying, that in the past filmmakers were providing boundaries by not casting women or people of different ethnicity in certain roles making it harder for women and people of different ethnicity to identify with these characters. She seems to thus imply that these past filmmakers (among them Lucas) were delibirately catering to boys, and white people, because they didn’t believe these stories would appeal to anybody else, and that only recently these lines are beginning to be blurred. Filmmakers should facilitate this movement by casting on an equal basis.

While it is true that men and women were not given equal opportunity in the film industry, I think it is faulty and inherently sexist to assume that a character’s gender is in any way important in the way men and women relate to these characters. As such, the fact that Rey and Jyn are female protagonists is important, because it reflects equality in casting, not because their gender makes these characters more relatable to women. If the inherent assumption is, that by casting female protagonists in Star Wars the franchise will become more appealing to women, then I would consider such a notion higly superficial and sexist.

It seems like you are suggesting that casting should go back to being less inclusive.

He obviously isn’t suggesting that. I don’t agree with his interpretation of Kennedy’s words. I actually think Kennedy was saying that girls and boys have more or less always been able to relate to all characters but now we don’t have to think of roles as being limited to one gender. But he obviously isn’t saying that he wants Star Wars to go back to the 70s and be all white again.

I care more that all children grow up seeing themselves represented in all types of roles, then I do about one or two casting decisions that I personally didn’t like. This is why Kelly Marie Tran is in my signature.

As someone who doesn’t care about Star Wars or children, I personally think that more inclusive casting is good, but I also hate how people are implying that it is something to consider when evaluating how relatable a character is. I don’t relate to any living person in real life and only relate to a few characters in film, and those few characters that I relate to are pretty diverse, and almost a 50/50 split in terms of male to female. I simply can’t relate to the notion that not sharing an arbitrary characteristic with a character makes him or her less relatable. I don’t get it, and probably never will. That doesn’t mean that I don’t want films to be inclusive to women and non-white actors. It also doesn’t mean that I don’t want people to go out of their way to make films reflect the diverse society that we live in. All it means is that I think it’s shallow to look at old characters and act like they’re less relatable because of their skin color or gender. One thing that I will admit to is that I actually am selfish enough to care a lot more about casting decisions that I like than I care about children seeing themselves represented, but my preferences in casting don’t have anything to do with race or gender so that shouldn’t conflict with your goal. Other than that, I pretty much agree with you.

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

I don’t remember anyone saying that girls couldn’t relate to Luke.

I do know my daughters identify much more strongly with Rey.

“I think there was an assumption being made for quite a while that girls didn’t care about Star Wars or that girls weren’t identifying with characters like Luke Skywalker or Han Solo; they were only identifying with Princess Leia or characters in other movies along those lines. And you know I think that it is not just Star Wars that is making this change, I think culturally, I want to believe that there is real movement and momentum beginning to happen where those kinds of lines are being blurred and people are recognizing in the creative community that um little girls, and little boys, for that matter are crossing over into identifying with lots of different characters and lots of different stories; And we as filmmakers should not be the ones providing those boundaries we should just tell the stories and they should be open a wide variety of not only gender but ethnicity. and that is another thing we are really working to do is to make the casting reflect society in a much more equal basis.”

• Kathleen Kennedy, President of Lucasfilm, Star Wars Celebration 2016

As I interpret Kennedy’s words, she’s literally saying, that in the past filmmakers were providing boundaries by not casting women or people of different ethnicity in certain roles making it harder for women and people of different ethnicity to identify with these characters. She seems to thus imply that these past filmmakers (among them Lucas) were delibirately catering to boys, and white people, because they didn’t believe these stories would appeal to anybody else, and that only recently these lines are beginning to be blurred. Filmmakers should thus facilitate this movement by casting on an equal basis.

While it is true that men and women were not given equal opportunity in the film industry, I think it is faulty and inherently sexist to assume that a character’s gender is in any way important in the way men and women relate to these characters. As such, the fact that Rey and Jyn are female protagonists is important, because it reflects equality in casting, not because their gender makes these characters more relatable to women. If the inherent assumption is, that by casting women in gender neutral roles in Star Wars the franchise will become more appealing to women, then I would consider such a notion higly superficial and sexist.

For interest, info and a bit of balance…

Kathleen Kennedy’s quoted words appear in this article here:-

’A Princess in the Stars: A Female Perspective on Growing Up with The Expanded Universe’

http://www.theexpandeduniverse.com/single-post/2018/03/08/A-Princess-in-the-Stars-A-Female-Perspective-on-Growing-Up-with-The-Expanded-Universe

^ Quite an enjoyable article, that. Although the tile refers to the EU, it also lends itself to SW as a whole as well.

Though this is a ‘Has SW finally jumped the shark?’ thread, so further discussions on diversity and the political situation of Star Wars is likely better suited to the ‘Culture, politics, and diversity in Star Wars’ thread, or other more suited threads.

Huh, a bit of deja vu for a moment there.

Thank you.

Creox said:

moviefreakedmind said:

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

I don’t remember anyone saying that girls couldn’t relate to Luke.

I do know my daughters identify much more strongly with Rey.

“I think there was an assumption being made for quite a while that girls didn’t care about Star Wars or that girls weren’t identifying with characters like Luke Skywalker or Han Solo; they were only identifying with Princess Leia or characters in other movies along those lines. And you know I think that it is not just Star Wars that is making this change, I think culturally, I want to believe that there is real movement and momentum beginning to happen where those kinds of lines are being blurred and people are recognizing in the creative community that um little girls, and little boys, for that matter are crossing over into identifying with lots of different characters and lots of different stories; And we as filmmakers should not be the ones providing those boundaries we should just tell the stories and they should be open a wide variety of not only gender but ethnicity. and that is another thing we are really working to do is to make the casting reflect society in a much more equal basis.”

• Kathleen Kennedy, President of Lucasfilm (2012 to Present),

Star Wars Celebration 2016

As I interpret Kennedy’s words she’s literally saying, that in the past filmmakers were providing boundaries by not casting women or people of different ethnicity in certain roles making it harder for women and people of different ethnicity to identify with these characters. She seems to thus imply that these past filmmakers (among them Lucas) were delibirately catering to boys, and white people, because they didn’t believe these stories would appeal to anybody else, and that only recently these lines are beginning to be blurred. Filmmakers should facilitate this movement by casting on an equal basis.

While it is true that men and women were not given equal opportunity in the film industry, I think it is faulty and inherently sexist to assume that a character’s gender is in any way important in the way men and women relate to these characters. As such, the fact that Rey and Jyn are female protagonists is important, because it reflects equality in casting, not because their gender makes these characters more relatable to women. If the inherent assumption is, that by casting female protagonists in Star Wars the franchise will become more appealing to women, then I would consider such a notion higly superficial and sexist.

It seems like you are suggesting that casting should go back to being less inclusive.

He obviously isn’t suggesting that. I don’t agree with his interpretation of Kennedy’s words. I actually think Kennedy was saying that girls and boys have more or less always been able to relate to all characters but now we don’t have to think of roles as being limited to one gender. But he obviously isn’t saying that he wants Star Wars to go back to the 70s and be all white again.

I care more that all children grow up seeing themselves represented in all types of roles, then I do about one or two casting decisions that I personally didn’t like. This is why Kelly Marie Tran is in my signature.

As someone who doesn’t care about Star Wars or children, I personally think that more inclusive casting is good, but I also hate how people are implying that it is something to consider when evaluating how relatable a character is. I don’t relate to any living person in real life and only relate to a few characters in film, and those few characters that I relate to are pretty diverse, and almost a 50/50 split in terms of male to female. I simply can’t relate to the notion that not sharing an arbitrary characteristic with a character makes him or her less relatable. I don’t get it, and probably never will. That doesn’t mean that I don’t want films to be inclusive to women and non-white actors. It also doesn’t mean that I don’t want people to go out of their way to make films reflect the diverse society that we live in. All it means is that I think it’s shallow to look at old characters and act like they’re less relatable because of their skin color or gender. One thing that I will admit to is that I actually am selfish enough to care a lot more about casting decisions that I like than I care about children seeing themselves represented, but my preferences in casting don’t have anything to do with race or gender so that shouldn’t conflict with your goal. Other than that, I pretty much agree with you.

Just want to chime in that the glaring part of your post is that you don’t care about SW. Not sure why you’re here then???

I cared when I first came here.

They also don’t need anywhere near as many characters as they have. Rogue One had far too many indistinguishable characters.

I only had one time. I don’t remember any of them but I do remember that other than the girl and the robot they all looked more or less the same so I couldn’t even keep track.

I definitely can’t identify them by their names.

I don’t even know what that is. I’m out of the loop.

moviefreakedmind said:

They also don’t need anywhere near as many characters as they have. Rogue One had far too many indistinguishable characters.

I felt that way about TLJ. There were too many unnecessary characters, and just too much window dressing in general. Some better writing would have been welcome.

I only saw RO once, but I have to say that except for the ending, I really don’t remember much about it.

Mielr said:

I only saw RO once, but I have to say that except for the ending, I really don’t remember much about it.

The only things I remember specifically was the CGI Grand Moff Tarkin and the CGI Carrie Fisher. Everything else is vague, like everyone dying.

moviefreakedmind said:

Creox said:

moviefreakedmind said:

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

I don’t remember anyone saying that girls couldn’t relate to Luke.

I do know my daughters identify much more strongly with Rey.

“I think there was an assumption being made for quite a while that girls didn’t care about Star Wars or that girls weren’t identifying with characters like Luke Skywalker or Han Solo; they were only identifying with Princess Leia or characters in other movies along those lines. And you know I think that it is not just Star Wars that is making this change, I think culturally, I want to believe that there is real movement and momentum beginning to happen where those kinds of lines are being blurred and people are recognizing in the creative community that um little girls, and little boys, for that matter are crossing over into identifying with lots of different characters and lots of different stories; And we as filmmakers should not be the ones providing those boundaries we should just tell the stories and they should be open a wide variety of not only gender but ethnicity. and that is another thing we are really working to do is to make the casting reflect society in a much more equal basis.”

• Kathleen Kennedy, President of Lucasfilm (2012 to Present),

Star Wars Celebration 2016

As I interpret Kennedy’s words she’s literally saying, that in the past filmmakers were providing boundaries by not casting women or people of different ethnicity in certain roles making it harder for women and people of different ethnicity to identify with these characters. She seems to thus imply that these past filmmakers (among them Lucas) were delibirately catering to boys, and white people, because they didn’t believe these stories would appeal to anybody else, and that only recently these lines are beginning to be blurred. Filmmakers should facilitate this movement by casting on an equal basis.

While it is true that men and women were not given equal opportunity in the film industry, I think it is faulty and inherently sexist to assume that a character’s gender is in any way important in the way men and women relate to these characters. As such, the fact that Rey and Jyn are female protagonists is important, because it reflects equality in casting, not because their gender makes these characters more relatable to women. If the inherent assumption is, that by casting female protagonists in Star Wars the franchise will become more appealing to women, then I would consider such a notion higly superficial and sexist.

It seems like you are suggesting that casting should go back to being less inclusive.

He obviously isn’t suggesting that. I don’t agree with his interpretation of Kennedy’s words. I actually think Kennedy was saying that girls and boys have more or less always been able to relate to all characters but now we don’t have to think of roles as being limited to one gender. But he obviously isn’t saying that he wants Star Wars to go back to the 70s and be all white again.

I care more that all children grow up seeing themselves represented in all types of roles, then I do about one or two casting decisions that I personally didn’t like. This is why Kelly Marie Tran is in my signature.

As someone who doesn’t care about Star Wars or children, I personally think that more inclusive casting is good, but I also hate how people are implying that it is something to consider when evaluating how relatable a character is. I don’t relate to any living person in real life and only relate to a few characters in film, and those few characters that I relate to are pretty diverse, and almost a 50/50 split in terms of male to female. I simply can’t relate to the notion that not sharing an arbitrary characteristic with a character makes him or her less relatable. I don’t get it, and probably never will. That doesn’t mean that I don’t want films to be inclusive to women and non-white actors. It also doesn’t mean that I don’t want people to go out of their way to make films reflect the diverse society that we live in. All it means is that I think it’s shallow to look at old characters and act like they’re less relatable because of their skin color or gender. One thing that I will admit to is that I actually am selfish enough to care a lot more about casting decisions that I like than I care about children seeing themselves represented, but my preferences in casting don’t have anything to do with race or gender so that shouldn’t conflict with your goal. Other than that, I pretty much agree with you.

Just want to chime in that the glaring part of your post is that you don’t care about SW. Not sure why you’re here then???

I cared when I first came here.

too much, probably.