Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 129

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

No one hated Anakin taking about sand or turning to the dark side because of the logic of them.

Really? Padme saying she loved Anakin wasn’t believable, because it didn’t make much logical sense considering Anakin’s creepy behaviour and his other actions the story. The lack of logic obviously stems from the fact, that such a course of events would not make sense in a romance in the real world. This has been stated over, and over again in critical arguments about the romance in the PT, so your argument, that no one disliked the PT, because of lack of logic and consistency seems faulty to me. The same goes for Anakin, who almost instanteneously goes from conflicted Jedi to murdering psychopath. This also doesn’t make logical sense to many people, and has also been analyzed and discussed endlessly.

You’re attributing the logic to other issues. The problem with Anakin and Padme’s romance isn’t real world logic. The problem is a lot of other things. Cringey dialogue. Wooden acting. Inconsistent character motivations. Complete lack of chemistry. Anakin’s total lack of charm and altogether creepyness. Poorly structured sequences. Unearned emotional moments.

Anakin turning on a dime isn’t bad real world logic. It’s a problem of believability of the profession of his character arc. The film paints a poor and contradictory portrait of his head space throughout, and takes a narrative short cut in terms of his motivations (which is especially problematic as he is the main character). None of this has anything to do with real world logic, just pure storytelling mechanics.

Storytelling mechanics and real world logic are intimately connected, as we use our real world experience as the benchmark for what does, and doesn’t make sense in a story. Stories can take liberties for dramatic purposes, but in a general sense, a story should make sense internally and usually to a large extend externally as well. If a character witholds vital information from another character, and the audience, this should make sense in the story. The character should have the proper motivations throughout the story arc. In TLJ Holdo’s initial motivation appears to be teaching Poe a lesson, and putting him in his place. However, this lesson also results in a mutiny, and ends up putting the Resistance in even greater danger. Holdo keeps witholding information even when it is obviously no longer in her best interests, and those of the people she is responsible for. She keeps silent when Poe forces her out of her position, apparently for no other reason than to have a story twist later in the story involving Leia. In your words Holdo’s character motivations are inconsistent. As a leader she should protect the interests of the Resistance (and herself), but she doesn’t, because apparently RJ already told her how the mutiny would play out. From an in-story perspective Holdo shouldn’t know this, and Poe’s mutiny could result in the destruction of the entire Resistance. The fact that she passively accepts this without informing Poe of the reality of the situation just doesn’t make logical and story sense.

I see no inconsistency in her motivations and in the story logic. It all makes perfect, easily understood sense. If she wasn’t going to tell him her plan before, she’s definitely not going to when he has a gun pointed at her. Especially considering she seems pretty confident she can take back control (which she, of course, does).

She cannot know she will be able to take back control, and the fallout if her attempts fail could be enormous. Telling him her plan is clearly the easiest and least risky way to diffuse the situation, and if Poe still rejects her plan, she could easily go for her plan B, which is to take back control. However, the outcome of Poe simply accepting her plan, and then working together to enact it is a real possibility, as is evident when Poe immediately accepts her plan later, when he is told after all the unnecessary drama has unfolded. This outcome is clearly the best for all involved, as it involves the least risk to the survival of the Resistance. A good leader would know this, so either RJ wants her to come off as incompetent, or his writing is (imo).

From Holdo’s perspective, there’s no guarantee whatsoever that Poe will lie over like a lap dog and accept her plan. I don’t know why you think she should be able to assume this just because we as an audience see he does later, but that she shouldn’t have confidence that she can take back control. It makes a whole lot more sense to me that she’d trust her and her compatriots’ skills more than she’d trust Poe’s judgment, especially considering the whole reason she hasn’t told Poe in the first place is she doesn’t trust his judgment. She’s completely consistent here, staying steadfast to her plan and her judgment of Poe all the way (like I said, Poe attempting mutiny only serves to make her trust him less).

Not to mention, we can’t even really know for sure that Poe would’ve taken it well. There’s an argument to be made that having Leia tell the plan to him after his plan and mutiny was dead and buried and this was the only option left made him more open to Holdo’s plan. Who knows if in the moment, while Poe was trying to get everything to work, that he would’ve just given up and rolled over.

DominicCobb said:

From Holdo’s perspective, there’s no guarantee whatsoever that Poe will lie over like a lap dog and accept her plan. I don’t know why you think she should be able to assume this just because we as an audience see he does later, but that she shouldn’t have confidence that she can take back control. It makes a whole lot more sense to me that she’d trust her and her compatriots’ skills more than she’d trust Poe’s judgment, especially considering the whole reason she hasn’t told Poe in the first place is she doesn’t trust his judgment. She’s completely consistent here, staying steadfast to her plan and her judgment of Poe all the way (like I said, Poe attempting mutiny only serves to make her trust him less).

Not to mention, we can’t even really know for sure that Poe would’ve taken it well. There’s an argument to be made that having Leia tell the plan to him after his plan and mutiny was dead and buried and this was the only option left made him more open to Holdo’s plan. Who knows if in the moment, while Poe was trying to get everything to work, that he would’ve just given up and rolled over.

Sorry this doesn’t make any sense to me. There’s no guarantee Poe will accept her plan, but since it is a possibility, and it involves the least risk to everyone on board, she should consider this, even if she believes it’s unlikely, which we later find out it is not. There’s no downside to her telling Poe, and if he does reject her plan, she can still enact her take over plan, as she did in the film. If he does accept her plan, they can proceed with no additional risk to the lifes on board.

DominicCobb said:

From Holdo’s perspective, there’s no guarantee whatsoever that Poe will lie over like a lap dog and accept her plan. I don’t know why you think she should be able to assume this just because we as an audience see he does later, but that she shouldn’t have confidence that she can take back control. It makes a whole lot more sense to me that she’d trust her and her compatriots’ skills more than she’d trust Poe’s judgment, especially considering the whole reason she hasn’t told Poe in the first place is she doesn’t trust his judgment. She’s completely consistent here, staying steadfast to her plan and her judgment of Poe all the way (like I said, Poe attempting mutiny only serves to make her trust him less).

Not to mention, we can’t even really know for sure that Poe would’ve taken it well. There’s an argument to be made that having Leia tell the plan to him after his plan and mutiny was dead and buried and this was the only option left made him more open to Holdo’s plan. Who knows if in the moment, while Poe was trying to get everything to work, that he would’ve just given up and rolled over.

But this whole idea of Poe being untrustworthy is so bizarrely contrived. There’s nothing up to this point that indicates he has ill intentions or would not be amenable to Holdo’s plan. Okay, he disobeyed Leia’s order to retreat, but it turned out to be the right call given that the Dreadnaught would have destroyed them all upon re-entry into normal space. Even immediately after his demotion he is given the green light to ‘jump in an X-Wing and blow something up’ which shows that there is significant ambiguity to Leia’s position in this regard.

And why doesn’t he trust Holdo? It can’t be a gender thing because he happily works alongside a whole bunch of very capable women - Leia included! It can’t be Holdo’s appearance given that he also works alongside aliens, droids, and lobsters in flight suits. It’s like this whole “she’s not what I expected” routine from Poe is suddenly pulled out of thin air to force a conflict in order to generate this particular storyline.

And what’s the lesson here? What if a similar situation arises and the next leader who withholds information turns out to be a traitor after all? Will Poe sit idly by because, well, you must never question authority?

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

From Holdo’s perspective, there’s no guarantee whatsoever that Poe will lie over like a lap dog and accept her plan. I don’t know why you think she should be able to assume this just because we as an audience see he does later, but that she shouldn’t have confidence that she can take back control. It makes a whole lot more sense to me that she’d trust her and her compatriots’ skills more than she’d trust Poe’s judgment, especially considering the whole reason she hasn’t told Poe in the first place is she doesn’t trust his judgment. She’s completely consistent here, staying steadfast to her plan and her judgment of Poe all the way (like I said, Poe attempting mutiny only serves to make her trust him less).

Not to mention, we can’t even really know for sure that Poe would’ve taken it well. There’s an argument to be made that having Leia tell the plan to him after his plan and mutiny was dead and buried and this was the only option left made him more open to Holdo’s plan. Who knows if in the moment, while Poe was trying to get everything to work, that he would’ve just given up and rolled over.

Sorry this doesn’t make any sense to me. There’s no guarantee Poe will accept her plan, but since it is a possibility, and it involves the least risk to everyone on board, she should consider this, even if she believes it’s unlikely, which we later find out it is not. There’s no downside to her telling Poe, and if he does reject her plan, she can still enact her take over plan, as she did in the film. If he does accept her plan, they can proceed with no additional risk to the lifes on board.

It’s one thing to say “it would potentially make sense for her to do this thing” and to say “it makes no sense whatsoever for her to do this other thing.” Just because I can see why she might tell him doesn’t mean that that’s the only thing she would reasonably do in that situation, especially when, as I’ve pointed out, it is completely consistent with her character and their dynamic to not. Of course there’s a downside. Holdo’s plan is on a need to know basis. Poe attempting a mutiny doesn’t suddenly reward him access to that information. Like I said, it probably makes her more resolute in her decision to not give it to him.

I still just see some people trying really hard to dislike certain things about TLJ.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

From Holdo’s perspective, there’s no guarantee whatsoever that Poe will lie over like a lap dog and accept her plan. I don’t know why you think she should be able to assume this just because we as an audience see he does later, but that she shouldn’t have confidence that she can take back control. It makes a whole lot more sense to me that she’d trust her and her compatriots’ skills more than she’d trust Poe’s judgment, especially considering the whole reason she hasn’t told Poe in the first place is she doesn’t trust his judgment. She’s completely consistent here, staying steadfast to her plan and her judgment of Poe all the way (like I said, Poe attempting mutiny only serves to make her trust him less).

Not to mention, we can’t even really know for sure that Poe would’ve taken it well. There’s an argument to be made that having Leia tell the plan to him after his plan and mutiny was dead and buried and this was the only option left made him more open to Holdo’s plan. Who knows if in the moment, while Poe was trying to get everything to work, that he would’ve just given up and rolled over.

Sorry this doesn’t make any sense to me. There’s no guarantee Poe will accept her plan, but since it is a possibility, and it involves the least risk to everyone on board, she should consider this, even if she believes it’s unlikely, which we later find out it is not. There’s no downside to her telling Poe, and if he does reject her plan, she can still enact her take over plan, as she did in the film. If he does accept her plan, they can proceed with no additional risk to the lifes on board.

It’s one thing to say “it would potentially make sense for her to do this thing” and to say “it makes no sense whatsoever for her to do this other thing.” Just because I can see why she might tell him doesn’t mean that that’s the only thing she would reasonably do in that situation, especially when, as I’ve pointed out, it is completely consistent with her character and their dynamic to not. Of course there’s a downside. Holdo’s plan is on a need to know basis. Poe attempting a mutiny doesn’t suddenly reward him access to that information. Like I said, it probably makes her more resolute in her decision to not give it to him.

It’s not about rewarding Poe, it’s about not putting the entire plan, and the Resistance at risk by letting Poe incapacitate her, and allowing him to keep his false belief, that she has no plan. A mutiny is a no-win situation, and things can easily spin further out of control. She has a chance to restore order, and control, but she doesn’t take it, because of reasons of plot convenience.

TV’s Frink said:

I still just see some people trying really hard to dislike certain things about TLJ.

You either like something, or you don’t. There is no try.

NeverarGreat said:

TV’s Frink said:

I still just see some people trying really hard to dislike certain things about TLJ.

I see Dre view the world of Star Wars as if it were a real, physical place, and TLJ holding up well with this filter.
I see Dom view TLJ as a movie separate from the other movies, with messages and characters, and it holding up well with this filter.

That’s the great thing about opinions, they come in all varieties, that cannot simply be divided into SJW’s and misogynists.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Well, I disagree entirely. First off, it is obvious we are supposed to side with Poe. Holdo is expecting Poe to follow orders. That he doesn’t is not surprising because she doesn’t share what she is doing. And ultimately it is Poe who turns Holdo’s cunning plan into a disaster. Poe sends Finn and Rose off to solve the problem his way. A daring venture full of risks with a possible payoff. But because they do not find the hacker that Maz recommends (probably because he can be trusted) and they end up with DJ and DJ learns of Holdo’s plan, when the mission goes sour he uses that to get himself out of trouble. As a result most of the resistance is destroyed, rather than losing the one ship and hiding out on Crait until someone came to get them. Poe is a hotshot pilot but that is not what makes a leader. Knowing when to not be the hotshot and play it safe is the lesson he needed and he got it the hard way. However the movie makes it very clear that if he hadn’t gone ahead and destroyed the dreadnaught at the beginning, it would have wiped them out later. So his first reckless act that he got demoted for turned out to be the right thing to do at the time, but after the fallout, Poe is making wiser decisions. Not bad for a character Abrams almost killed off.

That story line is full of old war movie tropes. How Holdo treats Poe, how Poe reacts, and how he learns. That may not be your real world experience, but it is many people’s. And Holdo doesn’t seem like she is much of a people person. One of those who rose to command through brilliant tactics. She obviously is a friend of Leia’s. So her tough treatment of Poe makes a lot of sense. Military methods of leadership are not the same as private sector methods. The military needs people who will follow orders without question plus brilliant strategists. So using civilian leadership techniques to critique a military interaction doesn’t work well. The same rules don’t apply. There is a reason why the traditional drill sergeant is tough and gruff. Dressing down a subordinate in a military setting isn’t about their well being, it is about their discipline and willingness to follow orders. In a military setting you need someone who will not panic and will act on their training no matter the price. In a civilian setting an employee’s life is rarely on the line and you rarely need blind obedience. So it is comparing apples to oranges.

So both on the writing side and on the realism side, this part of the story reflects some brilliant writing. I find the entire movie to be brilliant. I love it more the more I watch it. And it is definitely very Star Wars. War movies and samurai movies were very much a part of the original trilogy and Rian Johnson captured that part far better than Abrams did in TFA. I watched Twelve O’Clock High and Three Outlaw Samurai after I heard they, plus To Catch A Thief, were classics Rian Johnson was watching to prepare for this movie. Three brilliant films that definitely had an influence.

Maybe you should read the link I posted from someone with actual military experience, who makes it very clear, that in his military experience Holdo is not a good leader, both from the perspective of how she deals with Poe, and from the perspective of her strategy with regards to the FO. Being in the military is about more than following orders, and being a military leader is about more than forcing your will onto someone, or expecting people to blindly follow orders. The fact is that her leadership resulted in a mutiny, because she didn’t communicate her strategy in a highly tense, and life threatening situation. She has final responsibility, and she failed to communicate her plans even when Poe relieved her of her command at gun point.

Have you seen Twelve O’Clock High? If not then we are coming from different places. I have no personal military experience, only historical research related to WWII, the Indian Wars and the Civil War. Plus a crapload of war and military movies. First off, a superior officer does not have to tell those under them the plans or the reasons for the plans. That isn’t how chain of command works. I did briefly work under a police chief who was a stickler for chain of command and while the police and military do things somewhat differently, certain concepts are identical. One is the chain of command. Twelve O’clock High is directly about a superior officer who must earn the trust of the men under him when he assumes command after a beloved but inept commander has been removed. It has a lot of other things in it. Plus many of the other things are echoes in Three Outlaw Samurai and many other WWII and Saumurai movies. Twelve O’Clock High in particular was made with the full cooperation of the US Military.

And while I know that not everyone still abide by the old strict chain of command structure, that is one thing that drives Twelve O’Clock High. The removed commander doesn’t follow the book and has a horrible unit while the replacement is by the book, makes some enemies, and turns the unit into one of the best - increasing efficiency and reducing casualties. So I think that movie in itself and the wisdom of our military training programs it represents, whether they are currently adhered to or not, is more relevant than what a single person who has served in the modern military has to say. There is a reason why drill sergeant are so hard on people and there is a reason why they are so effective. And there is a reason why movies portray people like that the way they do. So Holdo isn’t doing anything out of typical military practice by not telling Poe what the plan is. Commanders don’t generally do that without good reason. And Poe, because he related that plan to Finn and Rose, is directly responsible for all the ships that are destroyed. So she had good reason not to tell him that is born out by the events in the film. Poe didn’t need to know and had no business telling Finn and Rose. He was acting on his own initiative outside the chain of command. He didn’t trust Holdo. That concept comes directly from Twelve O’Clock High.

And from everything I’ve heard, read, studied, researched about our military training, the reason for the harsh training is to instill in soldiers that they follow orders without question. When their commander says charge, they charge. If a commander can’t trust that those under him follow his orders, then he can’t reasonably hope for any plan go as planned and have a chance at success. It has been the core of our military training since Valley Forge.

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Well, I disagree entirely. First off, it is obvious we are supposed to side with Poe. Holdo is expecting Poe to follow orders. That he doesn’t is not surprising because she doesn’t share what she is doing. And ultimately it is Poe who turns Holdo’s cunning plan into a disaster. Poe sends Finn and Rose off to solve the problem his way. A daring venture full of risks with a possible payoff. But because they do not find the hacker that Maz recommends (probably because he can be trusted) and they end up with DJ and DJ learns of Holdo’s plan, when the mission goes sour he uses that to get himself out of trouble. As a result most of the resistance is destroyed, rather than losing the one ship and hiding out on Crait until someone came to get them. Poe is a hotshot pilot but that is not what makes a leader. Knowing when to not be the hotshot and play it safe is the lesson he needed and he got it the hard way. However the movie makes it very clear that if he hadn’t gone ahead and destroyed the dreadnaught at the beginning, it would have wiped them out later. So his first reckless act that he got demoted for turned out to be the right thing to do at the time, but after the fallout, Poe is making wiser decisions. Not bad for a character Abrams almost killed off.

That story line is full of old war movie tropes. How Holdo treats Poe, how Poe reacts, and how he learns. That may not be your real world experience, but it is many people’s. And Holdo doesn’t seem like she is much of a people person. One of those who rose to command through brilliant tactics. She obviously is a friend of Leia’s. So her tough treatment of Poe makes a lot of sense. Military methods of leadership are not the same as private sector methods. The military needs people who will follow orders without question plus brilliant strategists. So using civilian leadership techniques to critique a military interaction doesn’t work well. The same rules don’t apply. There is a reason why the traditional drill sergeant is tough and gruff. Dressing down a subordinate in a military setting isn’t about their well being, it is about their discipline and willingness to follow orders. In a military setting you need someone who will not panic and will act on their training no matter the price. In a civilian setting an employee’s life is rarely on the line and you rarely need blind obedience. So it is comparing apples to oranges.

So both on the writing side and on the realism side, this part of the story reflects some brilliant writing. I find the entire movie to be brilliant. I love it more the more I watch it. And it is definitely very Star Wars. War movies and samurai movies were very much a part of the original trilogy and Rian Johnson captured that part far better than Abrams did in TFA. I watched Twelve O’Clock High and Three Outlaw Samurai after I heard they, plus To Catch A Thief, were classics Rian Johnson was watching to prepare for this movie. Three brilliant films that definitely had an influence.

Maybe you should read the link I posted from someone with actual military experience, who makes it very clear, that in his military experience Holdo is not a good leader, both from the perspective of how she deals with Poe, and from the perspective of her strategy with regards to the FO. Being in the military is about more than following orders, and being a military leader is about more than forcing your will onto someone, or expecting people to blindly follow orders. The fact is that her leadership resulted in a mutiny, because she didn’t communicate her strategy in a highly tense, and life threatening situation. She has final responsibility, and she failed to communicate her plans even when Poe relieved her of her command at gun point.

Have you seen Twelve O’Clock High? If not then we are coming from different places. I have no personal military experience, only historical research related to WWII, the Indian Wars and the Civil War. Plus a crapload of war and military movies. First off, a superior officer does not have to tell those under them the plans or the reasons for the plans. That isn’t how chain of command works. I did briefly work under a police chief who was a stickler for chain of command and while the police and military do things somewhat differently, certain concepts are identical. One is the chain of command. Twelve O’clock High is directly about a superior officer who must earn the trust of the men under him when he assumes command after a beloved but inept commander has been removed. It has a lot of other things in it. Plus many of the other things are echoes in Three Outlaw Samurai and many other WWII and Saumurai movies. Twelve O’Clock High in particular was made with the full cooperation of the US Military.

And while I know that not everyone still abide by the old strict chain of command structure, that is one thing that drives Twelve O’Clock High. The removed commander doesn’t follow the book and has a horrible unit while the replacement is by the book, makes some enemies, and turns the unit into one of the best - increasing efficiency and reducing casualties. So I think that movie in itself and the wisdom of our military training programs it represents, whether they are currently adhered to or not, is more relevant than what a single person who has served in the modern military has to say. There is a reason why drill sergeant are so hard on people and there is a reason why they are so effective. And there is a reason why movies portray people like that the way they do. So Holdo isn’t doing anything out of typical military practice by not telling Poe what the plan is. Commanders don’t generally do that without good reason. And Poe, because he related that plan to Finn and Rose, is directly responsible for all the ships that are destroyed. So she had good reason not to tell him that is born out by the events in the film. Poe didn’t need to know and had no business telling Finn and Rose. He was acting on his own initiative outside the chain of command. He didn’t trust Holdo. That concept comes directly from Twelve O’Clock High.

And from everything I’ve heard, read, studied, researched about our military training, the reason for the harsh training is to instill in soldiers that they follow orders without question. When their commander says charge, they charge. If a commander can’t trust that those under him follow his orders, then he can’t reasonably hope for any plan go as planned and have a chance at success. It has been the core of our military training since Valley Forge.

Here’s a relevant link:

https://warontherocks.com/2017/07/when-can-a-soldier-disobey-an-order/

I disagree with your assertion, that our military are trained to blindly follow orders, in fact they are specifically instructed to also think for themselves to determine for example, if an order is lawfull. Poe is not only there to follow orders, he’s also responsible for the men and women who serve under him. If he believes his commander has lost her mind, is in some way incapacitated, or is unfit for command as set out in regulations (in this case to the point, that he believes, she’s about to get everyone killed), it’s his duty to intervene. A chain of command is maintained through communication, if a person at the top or any other level does not communicate, that chain is broken.

Then there’s also the fact, that she still refuses to communicate, when a mutiny breaks out. At that point it is clearly in her and the Resistance’s best interest, that she diffuses the situation as quickly as possible, before things spiral even further out of control. Informing Poe of her plan may achieve this. She cannot pass all the blame to Poe for the fallout, if she doesn’t do this, because as the person in charge she is ultimately responsible for the safety of her crew. If there’s an option, that results in the least casualties, she should take it, and deal with Poe appropriately at a more convenient time in a court martial, where his and her actions can be examined.

The movie Crimson Tide comes to mind, where the nuclear submarine’s second in command refuses to follow the captain’s orders, because he feels the captain is not following proper procedure, and is thus endangering the crew, and the United States. He subsequently starts a mutiny. At the end of the movie both the captain and his subordinate are held responsible in a tribunal for the sequence of events, because they failed to communicate, and to resolve their issues, which resulted in an extremely dangerous life threatening situation.

i’m only one minute in and he’s already bashing everyone that doesn’t like the movie and saying that we don’t like it simply because our theories were wrong. that’s simply not true, i liked rey being a nobody, but i wish we had more information on Snoke to help bridge the 30 year gap and how we went from ‘RIP the empire’ to ‘RIP the rebels’ with a new extremely powerful emperor. we’re two movies in already and we have no idea why the galaxy is in the state it’s in, and Snoke’s “backstory” could help with that.

Collipso said:

i’m only one minute in and he’s already bashing everyone that doesn’t like the movie and saying that we don’t like it simply because our theories were wrong. that’s simply not true, i liked rey being a nobody, but i wish we had more information on Snoke to help bridge the 30 year gap and how we went from ‘RIP the empire’ to ‘RIP the rebels’ with a new extremely powerful emperor. we’re two movies in already and we have no idea why the galaxy is in the state it’s in, and Snoke’s “backstory” could help with that.

What what exactly was Palpatine’s backstory before the prequels? What exactly is his backstory in the prequels? That we don’t get information on Snoke is not exactly something new.

Collipso said:

i’m only one minute in and he’s already bashing everyone that doesn’t like the movie and saying that we don’t like it simply because our theories were wrong. that’s simply not true, i liked rey being a nobody, but i wish we had more information on Snoke to help bridge the 30 year gap and how we went from ‘RIP the empire’ to ‘RIP the rebels’ with a new extremely powerful emperor. we’re two movies in already and we have no idea why the galaxy is in the state it’s in, and Snoke’s “backstory” could help with that.

The interesting thing for me is, that for all the talk about the group of toxic fans, and their hate campaigns, there’s a suprising amount of intolerance, and generalizations among the TLJ fanbase. Apparently insinuating that most critics are sexists, misogynists, man babies, and what not, is perfectly acceptable behaviour for these fans.

yotsuya said:

Collipso said:

i’m only one minute in and he’s already bashing everyone that doesn’t like the movie and saying that we don’t like it simply because our theories were wrong. that’s simply not true, i liked rey being a nobody, but i wish we had more information on Snoke to help bridge the 30 year gap and how we went from ‘RIP the empire’ to ‘RIP the rebels’ with a new extremely powerful emperor. we’re two movies in already and we have no idea why the galaxy is in the state it’s in, and Snoke’s “backstory” could help with that.

What what exactly was Palpatine’s backstory before the prequels? What exactly is his backstory in the prequels? That we don’t get information on Snoke is not exactly something new.

Palpatine wasn’t someone of influence until the prequels, and we got to witness him dismantle the Republic throughout the PT in great detail. With Snoke it’s sort of an afterthought. The guy undid everything our heroes fought for somehow, but that’s not considered to be of importance, apparently. It appears to me, that what mattered most is giving us a redux of the OT conflict, and the OT aesthetic with different characters.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Well, I disagree entirely. First off, it is obvious we are supposed to side with Poe. Holdo is expecting Poe to follow orders. That he doesn’t is not surprising because she doesn’t share what she is doing. And ultimately it is Poe who turns Holdo’s cunning plan into a disaster. Poe sends Finn and Rose off to solve the problem his way. A daring venture full of risks with a possible payoff. But because they do not find the hacker that Maz recommends (probably because he can be trusted) and they end up with DJ and DJ learns of Holdo’s plan, when the mission goes sour he uses that to get himself out of trouble. As a result most of the resistance is destroyed, rather than losing the one ship and hiding out on Crait until someone came to get them. Poe is a hotshot pilot but that is not what makes a leader. Knowing when to not be the hotshot and play it safe is the lesson he needed and he got it the hard way. However the movie makes it very clear that if he hadn’t gone ahead and destroyed the dreadnaught at the beginning, it would have wiped them out later. So his first reckless act that he got demoted for turned out to be the right thing to do at the time, but after the fallout, Poe is making wiser decisions. Not bad for a character Abrams almost killed off.

That story line is full of old war movie tropes. How Holdo treats Poe, how Poe reacts, and how he learns. That may not be your real world experience, but it is many people’s. And Holdo doesn’t seem like she is much of a people person. One of those who rose to command through brilliant tactics. She obviously is a friend of Leia’s. So her tough treatment of Poe makes a lot of sense. Military methods of leadership are not the same as private sector methods. The military needs people who will follow orders without question plus brilliant strategists. So using civilian leadership techniques to critique a military interaction doesn’t work well. The same rules don’t apply. There is a reason why the traditional drill sergeant is tough and gruff. Dressing down a subordinate in a military setting isn’t about their well being, it is about their discipline and willingness to follow orders. In a military setting you need someone who will not panic and will act on their training no matter the price. In a civilian setting an employee’s life is rarely on the line and you rarely need blind obedience. So it is comparing apples to oranges.

So both on the writing side and on the realism side, this part of the story reflects some brilliant writing. I find the entire movie to be brilliant. I love it more the more I watch it. And it is definitely very Star Wars. War movies and samurai movies were very much a part of the original trilogy and Rian Johnson captured that part far better than Abrams did in TFA. I watched Twelve O’Clock High and Three Outlaw Samurai after I heard they, plus To Catch A Thief, were classics Rian Johnson was watching to prepare for this movie. Three brilliant films that definitely had an influence.

Maybe you should read the link I posted from someone with actual military experience, who makes it very clear, that in his military experience Holdo is not a good leader, both from the perspective of how she deals with Poe, and from the perspective of her strategy with regards to the FO. Being in the military is about more than following orders, and being a military leader is about more than forcing your will onto someone, or expecting people to blindly follow orders. The fact is that her leadership resulted in a mutiny, because she didn’t communicate her strategy in a highly tense, and life threatening situation. She has final responsibility, and she failed to communicate her plans even when Poe relieved her of her command at gun point.

Have you seen Twelve O’Clock High? If not then we are coming from different places. I have no personal military experience, only historical research related to WWII, the Indian Wars and the Civil War. Plus a crapload of war and military movies. First off, a superior officer does not have to tell those under them the plans or the reasons for the plans. That isn’t how chain of command works. I did briefly work under a police chief who was a stickler for chain of command and while the police and military do things somewhat differently, certain concepts are identical. One is the chain of command. Twelve O’clock High is directly about a superior officer who must earn the trust of the men under him when he assumes command after a beloved but inept commander has been removed. It has a lot of other things in it. Plus many of the other things are echoes in Three Outlaw Samurai and many other WWII and Saumurai movies. Twelve O’Clock High in particular was made with the full cooperation of the US Military.

And while I know that not everyone still abide by the old strict chain of command structure, that is one thing that drives Twelve O’Clock High. The removed commander doesn’t follow the book and has a horrible unit while the replacement is by the book, makes some enemies, and turns the unit into one of the best - increasing efficiency and reducing casualties. So I think that movie in itself and the wisdom of our military training programs it represents, whether they are currently adhered to or not, is more relevant than what a single person who has served in the modern military has to say. There is a reason why drill sergeant are so hard on people and there is a reason why they are so effective. And there is a reason why movies portray people like that the way they do. So Holdo isn’t doing anything out of typical military practice by not telling Poe what the plan is. Commanders don’t generally do that without good reason. And Poe, because he related that plan to Finn and Rose, is directly responsible for all the ships that are destroyed. So she had good reason not to tell him that is born out by the events in the film. Poe didn’t need to know and had no business telling Finn and Rose. He was acting on his own initiative outside the chain of command. He didn’t trust Holdo. That concept comes directly from Twelve O’Clock High.

And from everything I’ve heard, read, studied, researched about our military training, the reason for the harsh training is to instill in soldiers that they follow orders without question. When their commander says charge, they charge. If a commander can’t trust that those under him follow his orders, then he can’t reasonably hope for any plan go as planned and have a chance at success. It has been the core of our military training since Valley Forge.

Here’s a relevant link:

https://warontherocks.com/2017/07/when-can-a-soldier-disobey-an-order/

I disagree with your assertion, that our military are trained to blindly follow orders, in fact they are specifically instructed to also think for themselves to determine for example, if an order is lawfull. Poe is not only there to follow orders, he’s also responsible for the men and women who serve under him. If he believes his commander has lost her mind, is in some way incapacitated, or is unfit for command as set out in regulations (in this case to the point, that he believes, she’s about to get everyone killed), it’s his duty to intervene. A chain of command is maintained through communication, if a person at the top or any other level does not communicate, that chain is broken.

Then there’s also the fact, that she still refuses to communicate, when a mutiny breaks out. At that point it is clearly in her and the Resistance’s best interest, that she diffuses the situation as quickly as possible, before things spiral even further out of control. Informing Poe of her plan may achieve this. She cannot pass all the blame to Poe for the fallout, if she doesn’t do this, because as the person in charge she is ultimately responsible for the safety of her crew. If there’s an option, that results in the least casualties, she should take it, and deal with Poe appropriately at a more convenient time in a court martial, where his and her actions can be examined.

The movie Crimson Tide comes to mind, where the nuclear submarine’s second in command refuses to follow the captain’s orders, because he feels the captain is not following proper procedure, and is thus endangering the crew, and the United States. He subsequently starts a mutiny. At the end of the movie both the captain and his subordinate are held responsible in a tribunal for the sequence of events, because they failed to communicate, and to resolve their issues, which resulted in an extremely dangerous life threatening situation.

You are ignoring the necessity of keeping some plans secret. Holdo doesn’t know all these people very well but what she does know is that Poe was just demoted by Leia. He is a fighter pilot and squad commander, not a capital ship command crew. She really has no reason to tell him her plans. There is no credible story reason for General Holdo to tell Poe the plan. He is not needed to execute it and would just be loaded on the shuttles with the rest of the crew when the time came. You are giving him a far more important role in the resistance than he actually has. And by that time he is a fighter pilot with no command and no ship. Why in the world would she tell him anything? She acts like a general should, leading and expecting those under her to follow. Those who needed to know the plan knew it (the navigator plotting the course, the crew supervising the fuel transfer, etc). Poe has no patience and thinks he knows what is best and he doesn’t. That is his character development in this film. He goes from a brash, hotshot pilot, to a real leader who now realizes that just because he isn’t in on the plan does not mean it is not a good plan. Good grief. If ever person of his rank in the US Army in WWII had acted that way, we would have lost the war. Do you know how many times they had to operate under sealed orders? How many times they didn’t know until the last minutes what their mission was? Missions were kept top secret for a reason. Poe seems blissfully unaware of that fact of military planning. And in this film HE is the leak that sinks the ship. Because of him the First Order finds out about Holdo’s plan and most of the ships are destroyed. It was an expensive lesson for Poe. But Poe blabs what is going on over the comm and DJ uses what he heard to buy his freedom when they are caught. Secrecy in combat situations is not unusual and is necessary. So this entire argument that Holdo should have told Poe is nonsense. It shows a complete lack of understanding of basic information security during a war.

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Well, I disagree entirely. First off, it is obvious we are supposed to side with Poe. Holdo is expecting Poe to follow orders. That he doesn’t is not surprising because she doesn’t share what she is doing. And ultimately it is Poe who turns Holdo’s cunning plan into a disaster. Poe sends Finn and Rose off to solve the problem his way. A daring venture full of risks with a possible payoff. But because they do not find the hacker that Maz recommends (probably because he can be trusted) and they end up with DJ and DJ learns of Holdo’s plan, when the mission goes sour he uses that to get himself out of trouble. As a result most of the resistance is destroyed, rather than losing the one ship and hiding out on Crait until someone came to get them. Poe is a hotshot pilot but that is not what makes a leader. Knowing when to not be the hotshot and play it safe is the lesson he needed and he got it the hard way. However the movie makes it very clear that if he hadn’t gone ahead and destroyed the dreadnaught at the beginning, it would have wiped them out later. So his first reckless act that he got demoted for turned out to be the right thing to do at the time, but after the fallout, Poe is making wiser decisions. Not bad for a character Abrams almost killed off.

That story line is full of old war movie tropes. How Holdo treats Poe, how Poe reacts, and how he learns. That may not be your real world experience, but it is many people’s. And Holdo doesn’t seem like she is much of a people person. One of those who rose to command through brilliant tactics. She obviously is a friend of Leia’s. So her tough treatment of Poe makes a lot of sense. Military methods of leadership are not the same as private sector methods. The military needs people who will follow orders without question plus brilliant strategists. So using civilian leadership techniques to critique a military interaction doesn’t work well. The same rules don’t apply. There is a reason why the traditional drill sergeant is tough and gruff. Dressing down a subordinate in a military setting isn’t about their well being, it is about their discipline and willingness to follow orders. In a military setting you need someone who will not panic and will act on their training no matter the price. In a civilian setting an employee’s life is rarely on the line and you rarely need blind obedience. So it is comparing apples to oranges.

So both on the writing side and on the realism side, this part of the story reflects some brilliant writing. I find the entire movie to be brilliant. I love it more the more I watch it. And it is definitely very Star Wars. War movies and samurai movies were very much a part of the original trilogy and Rian Johnson captured that part far better than Abrams did in TFA. I watched Twelve O’Clock High and Three Outlaw Samurai after I heard they, plus To Catch A Thief, were classics Rian Johnson was watching to prepare for this movie. Three brilliant films that definitely had an influence.

Maybe you should read the link I posted from someone with actual military experience, who makes it very clear, that in his military experience Holdo is not a good leader, both from the perspective of how she deals with Poe, and from the perspective of her strategy with regards to the FO. Being in the military is about more than following orders, and being a military leader is about more than forcing your will onto someone, or expecting people to blindly follow orders. The fact is that her leadership resulted in a mutiny, because she didn’t communicate her strategy in a highly tense, and life threatening situation. She has final responsibility, and she failed to communicate her plans even when Poe relieved her of her command at gun point.

Have you seen Twelve O’Clock High? If not then we are coming from different places. I have no personal military experience, only historical research related to WWII, the Indian Wars and the Civil War. Plus a crapload of war and military movies. First off, a superior officer does not have to tell those under them the plans or the reasons for the plans. That isn’t how chain of command works. I did briefly work under a police chief who was a stickler for chain of command and while the police and military do things somewhat differently, certain concepts are identical. One is the chain of command. Twelve O’clock High is directly about a superior officer who must earn the trust of the men under him when he assumes command after a beloved but inept commander has been removed. It has a lot of other things in it. Plus many of the other things are echoes in Three Outlaw Samurai and many other WWII and Saumurai movies. Twelve O’Clock High in particular was made with the full cooperation of the US Military.

And while I know that not everyone still abide by the old strict chain of command structure, that is one thing that drives Twelve O’Clock High. The removed commander doesn’t follow the book and has a horrible unit while the replacement is by the book, makes some enemies, and turns the unit into one of the best - increasing efficiency and reducing casualties. So I think that movie in itself and the wisdom of our military training programs it represents, whether they are currently adhered to or not, is more relevant than what a single person who has served in the modern military has to say. There is a reason why drill sergeant are so hard on people and there is a reason why they are so effective. And there is a reason why movies portray people like that the way they do. So Holdo isn’t doing anything out of typical military practice by not telling Poe what the plan is. Commanders don’t generally do that without good reason. And Poe, because he related that plan to Finn and Rose, is directly responsible for all the ships that are destroyed. So she had good reason not to tell him that is born out by the events in the film. Poe didn’t need to know and had no business telling Finn and Rose. He was acting on his own initiative outside the chain of command. He didn’t trust Holdo. That concept comes directly from Twelve O’Clock High.

And from everything I’ve heard, read, studied, researched about our military training, the reason for the harsh training is to instill in soldiers that they follow orders without question. When their commander says charge, they charge. If a commander can’t trust that those under him follow his orders, then he can’t reasonably hope for any plan go as planned and have a chance at success. It has been the core of our military training since Valley Forge.

Here’s a relevant link:

https://warontherocks.com/2017/07/when-can-a-soldier-disobey-an-order/

I disagree with your assertion, that our military are trained to blindly follow orders, in fact they are specifically instructed to also think for themselves to determine for example, if an order is lawfull. Poe is not only there to follow orders, he’s also responsible for the men and women who serve under him. If he believes his commander has lost her mind, is in some way incapacitated, or is unfit for command as set out in regulations (in this case to the point, that he believes, she’s about to get everyone killed), it’s his duty to intervene. A chain of command is maintained through communication, if a person at the top or any other level does not communicate, that chain is broken.

Then there’s also the fact, that she still refuses to communicate, when a mutiny breaks out. At that point it is clearly in her and the Resistance’s best interest, that she diffuses the situation as quickly as possible, before things spiral even further out of control. Informing Poe of her plan may achieve this. She cannot pass all the blame to Poe for the fallout, if she doesn’t do this, because as the person in charge she is ultimately responsible for the safety of her crew. If there’s an option, that results in the least casualties, she should take it, and deal with Poe appropriately at a more convenient time in a court martial, where his and her actions can be examined.

The movie Crimson Tide comes to mind, where the nuclear submarine’s second in command refuses to follow the captain’s orders, because he feels the captain is not following proper procedure, and is thus endangering the crew, and the United States. He subsequently starts a mutiny. At the end of the movie both the captain and his subordinate are held responsible in a tribunal for the sequence of events, because they failed to communicate, and to resolve their issues, which resulted in an extremely dangerous life threatening situation.

You are ignoring the necessity of keeping some plans secret. Holdo doesn’t know all these people very well but what she does know is that Poe was just demoted by Leia. He is a fighter pilot and squad commander, not a capital ship command crew. She really has no reason to tell him her plans. There is no credible story reason for General Holdo to tell Poe the plan. He is not needed to execute it and would just be loaded on the shuttles with the rest of the crew when the time came. You are giving him a far more important role in the resistance than he actually has. And by that time he is a fighter pilot with no command and no ship. Why in the world would she tell him anything? She acts like a general should, leading and expecting those under her to follow. Those who needed to know the plan knew it (the navigator plotting the course, the crew supervising the fuel transfer, etc). Poe has no patience and thinks he knows what is best and he doesn’t. That is his character development in this film. He goes from a brash, hotshot pilot, to a real leader who now realizes that just because he isn’t in on the plan does not mean it is not a good plan. Good grief. If ever person of his rank in the US Army in WWII had acted that way, we would have lost the war. Do you know how many times they had to operate under sealed orders? How many times they didn’t know until the last minutes what their mission was? Missions were kept top secret for a reason. Poe seems blissfully unaware of that fact of military planning. And in this film HE is the leak that sinks the ship. Because of him the First Order finds out about Holdo’s plan and most of the ships are destroyed. It was an expensive lesson for Poe. But Poe blabs what is going on over the comm and DJ uses what he heard to buy his freedom when they are caught. Secrecy in combat situations is not unusual and is necessary. So this entire argument that Holdo should have told Poe is nonsense. It shows a complete lack of understanding of basic information security during a war.

Since when does security imply you should pretend like there’s no plan at all? Even if it was necessary to keep the specifics from Poe, she could have told him, that a plan was in motion, but that it’s on a need to know basis, and he doesn’t need to know for security reasons. However, she does none of this. She leaves Poe with the impression, that there is no plan, setting up a conflict in an already tense and life threatening situation. Poe doesn’t act this way, because he wants to be insubordinate. He acts this way, because Holdo’s response leads him to believe, that she’s putting everyone’s lifes in danger. In any case the movie presents no compelling motivation why Holdo should keep the plan from Poe, other than pulling rank, and the movie’s events make a very strong case why she should have told him, because it would have prevented the FO from finding out about her plan. Even if we accept the idea, that Poe is a complete loose cannon (which I do not agree with), Holdo did nothing to improve that situation, and in fact added fuel to the flames. The ridiculous thing in my view is, that she still says she likes him, after he from your perspective inadvertedly leaks the plan to the FO, effectively dooming the Resistance, and starts a mutiny, where he forces her out of her position at gun point. Taking your point of view the movie’s lesson apparently is, that everyone dying, such that Poe can learn a lesson on leadership is perfectly acceptable to the point, that he’s fit to be Leia’s successor.

yotsuya said:

Collipso said:

i’m only one minute in and he’s already bashing everyone that doesn’t like the movie and saying that we don’t like it simply because our theories were wrong. that’s simply not true, i liked rey being a nobody, but i wish we had more information on Snoke to help bridge the 30 year gap and how we went from ‘RIP the empire’ to ‘RIP the rebels’ with a new extremely powerful emperor. we’re two movies in already and we have no idea why the galaxy is in the state it’s in, and Snoke’s “backstory” could help with that.

What what exactly was Palpatine’s backstory before the prequels? What exactly is his backstory in the prequels? That we don’t get information on Snoke is not exactly something new.

but it is. in Star Wars, it’s simply said that there’s an empire and there’s an emperor and that they’re evil. we have no reason to question such setting, it’s simply the setting the story is set on.

the problem with the ST in that regard is that the empire is pretty much defeated at the end of RotJ. and then the next time we see the galaxy (in the ST), the empire’s back, the rebels are the underdogs again for some reason (even though they were victorious the last time we saw them), there’s a new, stronger emperor… all this begs some questions. how did we get here from the point we were on in RotJ?, for example.

it’d be like going from the ending of TPM straight into SW. it’d make no sense and we’d need some sort of backstory, we’d ask some questions, which the answer would be, in this hypothetical case, AotC and RotS.

Collipso said:

yotsuya said:

Collipso said:

i’m only one minute in and he’s already bashing everyone that doesn’t like the movie and saying that we don’t like it simply because our theories were wrong. that’s simply not true, i liked rey being a nobody, but i wish we had more information on Snoke to help bridge the 30 year gap and how we went from ‘RIP the empire’ to ‘RIP the rebels’ with a new extremely powerful emperor. we’re two movies in already and we have no idea why the galaxy is in the state it’s in, and Snoke’s “backstory” could help with that.

What what exactly was Palpatine’s backstory before the prequels? What exactly is his backstory in the prequels? That we don’t get information on Snoke is not exactly something new.

but it is. in Star Wars, it’s simply said that there’s an empire and there’s an emperor and that they’re evil. we have no reason to question such setting, it’s simply the setting the story is set on.

the problem with the ST in that regard imo is that the empire is defeated at the end of RotJ. the next time we see the galaxy (in TFA and TLJ), the empire’s back, the rebels are the underdogs again for some reason (even though they were victorious the last time we saw them)… so all of this begs some questions. how did we get here from the point we were on in RotJ?

it’d be like going from the ending of TPM straight into SW. it’d make no sense and we’d need some sort of backstory, which in this hypothetical case would be AotC and RotS.

Well put!