Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 126

i’m not burned out of discussing TLJ, especially because i haven’t been doing so for the past 5 months. however, i did feel like i was constantly being teased and told i was wrong during that 5 month period.

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

Allways good to hear from someone who knows what he’s talking about. A military veteran gives a real world account of leadership, and why Holdo did not display good leadership while in command:

https://chrishernandezauthor.com/2017/12/31/admiral-holdo-wasnt-a-feminist-she-was-just-a-bad-leader/

I haven’t read the link - though think Holdo demonstrated good leadership in sacrificing herself to save the remaining Rebels in those unarmed ships being easily picked off by the First Order.

I don’t really need to read the views of a military veteran to understand or appreciate this - nor do I care for a military veteran’s reasons as to why she wasn’t a feminist (going on the url link) - or indeed why some think being a feminist matters in this context - but am sure it will come in handy for those that do. Nice one.

You shouldn’t judge a book by its cover, seems an apt statement here.

I believe we should read something first before commenting on it, but anyways in response to your belief that she displayed good leadership, and the fact that you seem to believe uninformed opinion trumps actual combat and leadership experience relating to a combat situation, here goes:

Mate, it’s not a case of judging a book by it’s cover - it’s a case of no longer still being interested in the topic at hand (which to me has been done to death - and then repeated some more, and then dug up again too) - and also not being interested in the views linked in that article you posted upon reading it’s url link.

So hardly an uninformed opinion on this subject, no?

If this combat veteran believes it was poor leadership cool - I don’t. I also don’t read up other articles from combat veterans when they are unhappy with events from other films that I have no issue with either. Nor those that wish to discuss why someone wasn’t a feminist (going on the url link). Well in to those that do, if that’s their thing, though.

I don’t have the time or energy to read through every link on here - and am certainly not going to spend time on this subject which frankly… doesn’t interest me, and I don’t have a problem with.

My previous post stands as it is - and as I said in that post… fair play that your link may interest others. Nice one.

Yet, rather than conserving time and energy, and just taking a pass, you felt the need to make a statement. If you’re not interested, which is absolutely fine, why clutter up a thread with statements, that boil down to “I’m not interested”? If you’re not interested in discussing an article or a link, than don’t discuss it. It makes it so much more enjoyable for those that do, when you don’t have to wade through posts that say “I haven’t read it, and I don’t care to!”.

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

Allways good to hear from someone who knows what he’s talking about. A military veteran gives a real world account of leadership, and why Holdo did not display good leadership while in command:

https://chrishernandezauthor.com/2017/12/31/admiral-holdo-wasnt-a-feminist-she-was-just-a-bad-leader/

I haven’t read the link - though think Holdo demonstrated good leadership in sacrificing herself to save the remaining Rebels in those unarmed ships being easily picked off by the First Order.

I don’t really need to read the views of a military veteran to understand or appreciate this - nor do I care for a military veteran’s reasons as to why she wasn’t a feminist (going on the url link) - or indeed why some think being a feminist matters in this context - but am sure it will come in handy for those that do. Nice one.

You shouldn’t judge a book by its cover, seems an apt statement here.

I believe we should read something first before commenting on it, but anyways in response to your belief that she displayed good leadership, and the fact that you seem to believe uninformed opinion trumps actual combat and leadership experience relating to a combat situation, here goes:

Mate, it’s not a case of judging a book by it’s cover - it’s a case of no longer still being interested in the topic at hand (which to me has been done to death - and then repeated some more, and then dug up again too) - and also not being interested in the views linked in that article you posted upon reading it’s url link.

So hardly an uninformed opinion on this subject, no?

If this combat veteran believes it was poor leadership cool - I don’t. I also don’t read up other articles from combat veterans when they are unhappy with events from other films that I have no issue with either. Nor those that wish to discuss why someone wasn’t a feminist (going on the url link). Well in to those that do, if that’s their thing, though.

I don’t have the time or energy to read through every link on here - and am certainly not going to spend time on this subject which frankly… doesn’t interest me, and I don’t have a problem with.

My previous post stands as it is - and as I said in that post… fair play that your link may interest others. Nice one.

Yet, rather than conserving time and energy, and just taking a pass, you felt the need to make a statement. If you’re not interested, which is absolutely fine, why clutter up a thread with statements, that boil down to “I’m not interested”? If you’re not interested in discussing an article or a link, than don’t discuss it. It makes it so much more enjoyable for those that do, when you don’t have to wade through posts that say “I haven’t read it, and I don’t care to!”.

I made a statement that being a military veteran doesn’t necessarily mean he knows what he’s talking about in the context of your ‘Holdo did not display good leadership while in command’ - in a sci-fi film - as a statement of fact.

Nobody said it was a statement of fact. What we have is a veteran with experience in combat and command structure. This fact gives his opinion more weight in a discussion on the subject of command structure and leadership in a military situation compared to someone like you or me with no such experience. It also seems rather odd to preemptively question the author´s “expert opinion” without reading, what he has to say, even if you were to disagree with his stance towards feminism in Star Wars movies, which as it stands, is irrelevant to the points he’s trying to make.

Feel free to carry this conversation on - though it may be impinging on the enjoyment of others, wading through posts like this, no?

It may be, but I feel the need to defend the article, and to invite people to read it, and form an opinion, which may be positive, negative, or anything in between, but one thing is for sure: it will be informed. 😛

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

Allways good to hear from someone who knows what he’s talking about. A military veteran gives a real world account of leadership, and why Holdo did not display good leadership while in command:

https://chrishernandezauthor.com/2017/12/31/admiral-holdo-wasnt-a-feminist-she-was-just-a-bad-leader/

I haven’t read the link - though think Holdo demonstrated good leadership in sacrificing herself to save the remaining Rebels in those unarmed ships being easily picked off by the First Order.

I don’t really need to read the views of a military veteran to understand or appreciate this - nor do I care for a military veteran’s reasons as to why she wasn’t a feminist (going on the url link) - or indeed why some think being a feminist matters in this context - but am sure it will come in handy for those that do. Nice one.

You shouldn’t judge a book by its cover, seems an apt statement here.

I believe we should read something first before commenting on it, but anyways in response to your belief that she displayed good leadership, and the fact that you seem to believe uninformed opinion trumps actual combat and leadership experience relating to a combat situation, here goes:

Mate, it’s not a case of judging a book by it’s cover - it’s a case of no longer still being interested in the topic at hand (which to me has been done to death - and then repeated some more, and then dug up again too) - and also not being interested in the views linked in that article you posted upon reading it’s url link.

So hardly an uninformed opinion on this subject, no?

If this combat veteran believes it was poor leadership cool - I don’t. I also don’t read up other articles from combat veterans when they are unhappy with events from other films that I have no issue with either. Nor those that wish to discuss why someone wasn’t a feminist (going on the url link). Well in to those that do, if that’s their thing, though.

I don’t have the time or energy to read through every link on here - and am certainly not going to spend time on this subject which frankly… doesn’t interest me, and I don’t have a problem with.

My previous post stands as it is - and as I said in that post… fair play that your link may interest others. Nice one.

Yet, rather than conserving time and energy, and just taking a pass, you felt the need to make a statement. If you’re not interested, which is absolutely fine, why clutter up a thread with statements, that boil down to “I’m not interested”? If you’re not interested in discussing an article or a link, than don’t discuss it. It makes it so much more enjoyable for those that do, when you don’t have to wade through posts that say “I haven’t read it, and I don’t care to!”.

I made a statement that being a military veteran doesn’t necessarily mean he knows what he’s talking about in the context of your ‘Holdo did not display good leadership while in command’ - in a sci-fi film - as a statement of fact.

Nobody said it was a statement of fact.

Yet you wrote…

DrDre said:

Allways good to hear from someone who knows what he’s talking about. A military veteran gives a real world account of leadership, and why Holdo did not display good leadership while in command:

Not why he thinks / believes / is of the opinion etc - ‘… and why Holdo did not display good leadership while in command’ - seems like a statement of fact to me.

This seems like a straw man to me, since this is a discussion forum, which generally doesn’t deal in fact, but opinion. We shouldn’t have to put “in my opinion”, “in my view”, etc. in every sentence, or risk being “attacked” by those that disagree with said opinion of making statements of fact, a discussion technique, which is generally used by detractors to derail a discussion, and to deflect criticism by focussing heavily on form rather than content.

Feel free to carry this conversation on - though it may be impinging on the enjoyment of others, wading through posts like this, no?

It may be, but I feel the need to defend the article, and to invite people to read it, and form an opinion, which may be positive, negative, or anything in between, but one thing is for sure: it will be informed. 😛

Like I said before, fair play to you for posting it up for those that are interested. I think my post fell in into the ‘anything in between’ you mention above (and you’d like me not to discuss) - I just don’t find a combat veteran’s ‘expert opinion’ on why Holdo wasn’t a feminist relevant or informed given the context of your initial post on the matter. Good for those that do, though.

Well like I said, you shouldn’t judge a book by its cover. The fact that you don’t find this author’s opinion informed based on my initial post, is hearsay, and is no better than someone saying TLJ sucks, because he heard someone’s synopsis of the film, and didn’t like it much. I’m sure you would have jumped on the first person, who would have stated RJ isn’t informed on the subject of Star Wars without seeing the film first, and rightfully so. The best you can do in such circumstances, is to say that you heard someone’s synopsis of TLJ, and didn’t find it enticing, and so didn’t see it, but in order to form an informed opinion on the film and it’s creator, I would have to see it. In the same vain someone might not find my post, or the title of the article very enticing, and thus possibly wouldn’t read it, but in order to form an informed opinion on the article and the author, he or she would have to read it.

what the literal f*$&

goodness, i think i am gonna check out too. now we are saying that because one real life general doesn’t like what they did in star wars, that makes it bad? HAH. you can find a real life general to say that everything that happens in real life is bad too, doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. SMH.

dahmage said:

what the literal f*$&

goodness, i think i am gonna check out too. now we are saying that because one real life general doesn’t like what they did in star wars, that makes it bad? HAH. you can find a real life general to say that everything that happens in real life is bad too, doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. SMH.

Did you read the article? What’s so shocking about someone using his real life experience on military leadership to make an assessment of how a character behaves in a movie, and whether such behaviour in a real life situation would constitute good leadership? These characters are presented as role models to an extend, and people identify with them. It seems to me, that someone with actual expertise on military leadership would have a more informed opinion, than the average person, but I guess that only matters, if the opinion is favourable to TLJ, like for example when a physicist states Holdo’s kamikaze act would be physically plausible in their “expert” opinion.

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

what the literal f*$&

goodness, i think i am gonna check out too. now we are saying that because one real life general doesn’t like what they did in star wars, that makes it bad? HAH. you can find a real life general to say that everything that happens in real life is bad too, doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. SMH.

Did you read the article? What’s so shocking about someone using his real life experience on military leadership to make an assessment of how a character behaves in a movie, and whether such behaviour in a real life situation would constitute good leadership? These characters are presented as role models to an extend, and people identify with them. It seems to me, that someone with actual expertise on military leadership would have a more informed opinion, than the average person, but I guess that only matters, if the opinion is favourable to TLJ, like for example when a physicist states Holdo’s kamikaze act would be physically plausible in their expert opinion.

I am saying, you can find an expert to agree with anything. and you can especially find an expert to say that any given decision was bad.

so, i really don’t see why you think it matters that an expert was found that said this was bad.

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

what the literal f*$&

goodness, i think i am gonna check out too. now we are saying that because one real life general doesn’t like what they did in star wars, that makes it bad? HAH. you can find a real life general to say that everything that happens in real life is bad too, doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. SMH.

Did you read the article? What’s so shocking about someone using his real life experience on military leadership to make an assessment of how a character behaves in a movie, and whether such behaviour in a real life situation would constitute good leadership? These characters are presented as role models to an extend, and people identify with them. It seems to me, that someone with actual expertise on military leadership would have a more informed opinion, than the average person, but I guess that only matters, if the opinion is favourable to TLJ, like for example when a physicist states Holdo’s kamikaze act would be physically plausible in their expert opinion.

I am saying, you can find an expert to agree with anything. and you can especially find an expert to say that any given decision was bad.

so, i really don’t see why you think it matters that an expert was found that said this was bad.

Well, it shouldn’t really matter, whether the expert says her leadership is good or bad. It should matter whether the arguments used to make this assessment have any merit. The fact that the argument is based on real life experience in these matters can give weight to an argument, if it is well argued.

Collipso, do you truly think someone who says “TLJ is one of the best Star Wars films” is just doing so to tease the haters? Don’t you think they’re just doing so because they love it? Are people not supposed to say they love things for fear of inadvertently annoying people with other opinions?

I see that article headline and I see no reason to keep reading.

Funny, everytime a TLJ fan posted an article calling critics man babies, toxic, and what not, I’ve read the article to form my own opinion, and argued against it, if I disagreed, but I guess nothing is beneath me.

I dont want to waste my time reading that any more than I want to waste it writing long drawn-out arguments about why it’s probably wrong. You do what you gotta do though.

What if Holdo WAS a just feminist manhater who withheld information from Poe simply because she personally didn’t like him. Does this make it a bad film?

Because this is EXACTLY how the audience is supposed to feel in this situation. Angry that we aren’t being given the information by someone who appears to be the wrong person for the job. Everything about her character design and introduction is supposed to illicit that response.

DominicCobb said:

Collipso, do you truly think someone who says “TLJ is one of the best Star Wars films” is just doing so to tease the haters?

in the context i described, yes.

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso, do you truly think someone who says “TLJ is one of the best Star Wars films” is just doing so to tease the haters?

in the context i described, yes.

Are people not allowed to profess they like something months after it came out? Is liking something considered trolling now?

what?

that’s not at all what i was saying. i never said people were trolling, jeez. no need to go full defensive mode.

in fact, i said i think spreading positivity and love is a great thing and i fully support it and i’m usually glad to know someone loved tlj.

BUT

on a number of occasions, the wording of the phrase and how people thst disagree with the shared opinion are treated lead me to believe that the person posted it because they love the film, yes, but with that extra grain of salt to tease and annoy haters.

Collipso said:

what?

that’s not at all what i was saying. i never said people were trolling, jeez. no need to go full defensive mode.

in fact, i said i think spreading positivity and love is a great thing and i fully support it and i’m usually glad to know someone loved tlj.

BUT

on a number of occasions, the wording of the phrase and how people thst disagree with the shared opinion are treated lead me to believe that the person posted it because they love the film, yes, but with that extra grain of salt to tease and annoy haters.

I’m not being defensive, I’m just asking for clarification on a post that didn’t make any sense to me. The example of a tweet you used seemed entirely innocuous to me, and I legitimately don’t understand why someone expressing an opinion in that way is “annoying.”

ok