Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 123

Collipso said:

well, if characters were to survive after an explosion and getting sucked to space, space battles would have no tension at all. not when force users are the pilots at least.

well, when you have something powerful like the force involved, i don’t see a solution other than sometimes using the power (because our space stories need a bit of ‘that was kick ass!’ sometimes) and sometimes conveniently not using the power. Seems to me like that has always been the case, except for perhaps ANH, where the force was just new and not as well explored as in the later movies.

and the kanan example shared above lasts for basically 5-10 seconds, and you can clearly see that he was almost, well, freezing to death already. i was under the impression leia was floating in space for a couple of minutes at least.

my impression was more like it was maybe 15 seconds.

Collipso said:

well, if characters were to survive after an explosion and getting sucked to space, space battles would have no tension at all. not when force users are the pilots at least.

Of course there’s still tension, the same way there’s tension in an Earthly aerial dogfight. If your fighter explodes, you’re likely not making it. If you are lucky enough to make it out alive, even if you’re a force user, there’s still the danger of a battle still on going, and where exactly you’re going to go to save yourself.

i do recall a clone wars episode where plo koon and three clones survive outisde for a very short period of time - and they explicitly say that plo koon survives because of the mask he uses and that the clones survive because of their armor.

They’re out there for quite awhile with no issue. Interesting that they don’t implode or whatever people think happen.

and the kanan example shared above lasts for basically 5-10 seconds, and you can clearly see that he was almost, well, freezing to death already. i was under the impression leia was floating in space for a couple of minutes at least.

Don’t think it was that long for Leia. Also notice that Kanan is back on his feet immediately, while Leia is in a coma for most of the rest of the film.

hm, good points the three of you. i’m still bothered by it though, not sure how else to explain it.

Personally Leia should have been more powerful, and maybe dragged back in Ackbar and some other people before closing up the hole. Then she could have the nap.

Haarspalter said:
But the movie event of being sucked into space belongs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EYJbzQdTVw

Insightful look on the film and its response (I guess I should say I don’t agree with everything said, but it’s worth reading):

http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/

I was able to catch it on Netflix as well, and I think I realized a little nitpick I have with the movie.

After the Praetorian guard fight, I’m ready for the movie to be over. I love what happens in the remaining half hour, but this movie drains my energy (in a good way).

Spoilers for the TLJ Remake

https://twitter.com/OnePerfectShot/status/1013975593761767424

I’d watch it.

Mavimao said:

Here’s an excellent article on The Last Jedi and why it has elicited such a backlash from fans.

http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Just came to post this, it’s a long one but a fantastic read.

SilverWook said:

I get the joke, but it’s in questionable taste to show Carrie looking like that.

Questionable?

Mavimao said:

Here’s an excellent article on The Last Jedi and why it has elicited such a backlash from fans.

http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

It is indeed excellent. Of course it will fall on many deaf ears…

Mavimao said:

Here’s an excellent article on The Last Jedi and why it has elicited such a backlash from fans.

http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

This is a very interesting article. There’s much to agree with. However, then the author writes:

“I just want these active hardcore fans to be able to admit that what they really wanted was an indulgent Star Wars. I want them to understand what that term really means.”

So, the idea the author essentially poses is, that if people don’t like TLJ like me, they must be the antithesis of myself. If the author’s perception is, that TLJ is bold and innovating, then its critics must want the opposite. If the author’s perception is that TLJ is fun and witty, then its critics must be unwilling to feel silly. In the author’s mind the critics of TLJ are the fans, that cheered the loudest when Vader mowed through those rebel soldiers in RO. The author of this article simply can’t fathom, that many critics of TLJ want many of the same things he does, but for a multitude of reasons didn’t have the same perception of the film. Despite generally liking RO, I felt it sacrificed much needed character development in favour of fan service. I felt Darth Vader upstaged what should have been the main characters’ shining hour. I agree with the author, that both TFA and RO were indulgent. I want Star Wars to move beyond indulgence, and to not be driven by self-reference. If the author is to be believed, I should love TLJ, yet I didn’t.

Unlike the author of this article, I didn’t feel TLJ was the “Tower” in the sense of breaking the mold. I didn’t like the unoriginality of doubling down on the Empire versus rebels redux set up by TFA, and the ousting of the New Republic from the story. I didn’t like seeing the OT conflict played out again only “bigger and better” with an even smaller band of rebels fighting an overwhelming force. I don’t like the idea of some random Palpatine 2.0 being pulled out of thin air undoing the outcome of the previous six films, just because of franchise extension, such that a bunch of new faces can redo the OT with better visuals, a few added twists, and set pieces. In my view TLJ is almost as self-referential as its two predecessors. Its story twists do not follow from an original story line, but seem to strictly follow the OT’s story trajectory only to have RJ pull on the steering wheel at the last moment on several occasions. TLJ to me largely feels like the “What if” alternative to the OT. To summarize, I don’t think I fit in the authors box specially reserved for critics, just like I believe many of us critics don’t fit into a single box, or even the fans of TLJ fit into the box he has created for himself. This article proves eloquence is no substitute for understanding (not that I claim to understand TLJ’s fans, but that’s a different story).

Mavimao said:

Here’s an excellent article on The Last Jedi and why it has elicited such a backlash from fans.

http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Hmm

DominicCobb said:

Insightful look on the film and its response (I guess I should say I don’t agree with everything said, but it’s worth reading):

http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/

NeverarGreat said:

From the article, talking about the ‘fans’:

They never call it “bad logic” when it’s something they like.

Or when it’s something that makes them feel good. This reveals everything. Because there are plenty of things I find objectionable in a given film and could apply a logic argument to, but I don’t. Because that’s not the point of storytelling, nor why I’d really find the given issue to be objectionable. It’s all about how characters grow, change and are in conflict in one another.

I feel like a creator should always have the intended audience in mind, so as best to know when they can get away with narrative cheats. For example, if the audience is invested in a familiarly textured story, such as the first third of TFA, you can have one coincidence after another and the audience will buy it because they want to be immersed in this world.

However, if you’re giving the audience something new, something difficult and perhaps uncomfortable to deal with, you want to make sure that your story logic is absolutely sound because the audience will be closely examining the rules of the world to make sure that the movie still ‘works’ for them.

In regards to TLJ, he’s saying there’s no bad logic in the first place, just people projecting it onto situations they don’t personally like. Are you just saying they needed to go the extra mile to make the logic of everything clear? Just seems like unnecessary hand holding to me, and I’m sure you’d still get people criticizing that aspect of the film anyway.

In general, I agree with him. Criticisms about logic and plot holes are some of the basest anyone could come up with. Rarely do they have much to deal with what’s actually important about the movie’s story. Most movies are not logic puzzles, Star Wars especially.

DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

From the article, talking about the ‘fans’:

They never call it “bad logic” when it’s something they like.

Or when it’s something that makes them feel good. This reveals everything. Because there are plenty of things I find objectionable in a given film and could apply a logic argument to, but I don’t. Because that’s not the point of storytelling, nor why I’d really find the given issue to be objectionable. It’s all about how characters grow, change and are in conflict in one another.

I feel like a creator should always have the intended audience in mind, so as best to know when they can get away with narrative cheats. For example, if the audience is invested in a familiarly textured story, such as the first third of TFA, you can have one coincidence after another and the audience will buy it because they want to be immersed in this world.

However, if you’re giving the audience something new, something difficult and perhaps uncomfortable to deal with, you want to make sure that your story logic is absolutely sound because the audience will be closely examining the rules of the world to make sure that the movie still ‘works’ for them.

In regards to TLJ, he’s saying there’s no bad logic in the first place, just people projecting it onto situations they don’t personally like. Are you just saying they needed to go the extra mile to make the logic of everything clear? Just seems like unnecessary hand holding to me, and I’m sure you’d still get people criticizing that aspect of the film anyway.

In general, I agree with him. Criticisms about logic and plot holes are some of the basest anyone could come up with. Rarely do they have much to deal with what’s actually important about the movie’s story. Most movies are not logic puzzles, Star Wars especially.

Yet logic used in stories is like grammar used in poetry. We can forgive poetic license, since it serves a purpose, but in general the words should adhere to some grammatical structure (logic) to make sense. The existence of poetic license should not be used as a free pass for a poor grasp of grammar.