The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 193

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

ZigZig said:

I have a strange Groundhog Day feeling.

Same. It just struck me I honestly don’t know what the fuck I’m doing.

It’s all there in the film. If you don’t like it, fine. If you don’t want to accept it, fine. But it’s there, and it works for me and a lot of people. I truly don’t know why I bother, I’ve been arguing about this movie for more than a month and it feels like I’ve basically accomplished nothing at all.

Just because you have an opinion, doesn´t mean it´s right. Just because it works for you, doesn´t imply there´s some truth that everyone else is missing.

I might argue you are ignoring obvious problems with the film. It’s all there in the film. If you like it, fine. If you don’t want to accept it, fine. But it’s there, and it ruins the film for me and a lot of people. I truly don’t know why I bother, I’ve been arguing about this movie for more than a month and it feels like I’ve basically accomplished nothing at all.

That like yours would be a fallacious argument.

One thing I do agree with is, that we´re going around in circles, which is sort of pointless.

I never said I was right. I’m just saying that most of the stuff I keep arguing about is justified in the film itself. There’s nothing wrong with not accepting something the film presents or wishing it had taken a different route. I really mean it, that’s fine. But I can’t keep arguing like this, I’m basically just explaining the movie (and don’t take this to mean that I think you didn’t get the movie, that’s not what I’m saying! as for the “obvious problems,” I didn’t catch barely any at all until I logged on here, so I guess in this regard I’m the one who “didn’t get it” haha).

Like I said, if the direction didn’t work for you, fine, there’s nothing wrong with that. I’m still trying to accept that I can’t change that (for me this isn’t about being “right,” I just want you to see why this is a good movie so you can enjoy it). It worked for me, and I’d wager it’d be near impossible for anyone to change that (certainly now after having heard every possible complaint for the past month). So yeah, I think we really are going pointlessly in circles.

Well, I think criticisms work two ways. It’s partly about expectations, or wishing it had taken a different route. In that respect I agree, it’s not the creator’s fault for taking things into his preferred direction. However, much of the criticsm is also leveled at other aspects of film making, whether there are tonal issues, whether the story’s original, whether the characters are well developed, and or consistent. These are issues people have with the film, that cannot be simply attributed to expectations, or wanting things to go a different route. It’s all still subjective of course, as any opinion is, but to the critics these are weaknesses of the film, that exist even if they accept the basic premise of RJ’s story.

For example I believe, I would have accepted Luke’s arc in this film, if the relationship between Luke and Ben Solo had been better developed. RJ could have added a few more flashbacks to flesh out the backstory, or some exposition reminiscent of Obi-Wan’s “good friend” tale in ANH. If it would have been established, that Luke and young Ben were once very close, we would understand Luke’s heartbreak better when it all went bad. It also would have worked better if the story didn’t end up repeating the Empire vs rebels dynamic, which is a problem of originality. That way not all of our classic hero’s accomplishments would have been undone, because they would be facing a different challenge and situation.

In the end all of these arguments are rationalizations of how we felt after watching the film, whether positive or negative. If like for me the balance was shifted towards the negative, despite really wanting to like the film, you start dissecting it to look for rational explanations for why you feel the way you do. It’s not to piss off other fans. It’s just to channel what are generally pretty strong emotions. Of course in forums like this we get entrenched, with one side battling it out with the other, like the rebels against the FO (you are the FO of course 😛).

DominicCobb said:

So yeah, I think we really are going pointlessly in circles.

That is what I call a good summary.
JEDIT : and I’m nearly at the top of the page. Yeah.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

ZigZig said:

I have a strange Groundhog Day feeling.

Same. It just struck me I honestly don’t know what the fuck I’m doing.

It’s all there in the film. If you don’t like it, fine. If you don’t want to accept it, fine. But it’s there, and it works for me and a lot of people. I truly don’t know why I bother, I’ve been arguing about this movie for more than a month and it feels like I’ve basically accomplished nothing at all.

Just because you have an opinion, doesn´t mean it´s right. Just because it works for you, doesn´t imply there´s some truth that everyone else is missing.

I might argue you are ignoring obvious problems with the film. It’s all there in the film. If you like it, fine. If you don’t want to accept it, fine. But it’s there, and it ruins the film for me and a lot of people. I truly don’t know why I bother, I’ve been arguing about this movie for more than a month and it feels like I’ve basically accomplished nothing at all.

That like yours would be a fallacious argument.

One thing I do agree with is, that we´re going around in circles, which is sort of pointless.

I never said I was right. I’m just saying that most of the stuff I keep arguing about is justified in the film itself. There’s nothing wrong with not accepting something the film presents or wishing it had taken a different route. I really mean it, that’s fine. But I can’t keep arguing like this, I’m basically just explaining the movie (and don’t take this to mean that I think you didn’t get the movie, that’s not what I’m saying! as for the “obvious problems,” I didn’t catch barely any at all until I logged on here, so I guess in this regard I’m the one who “didn’t get it” haha).

Like I said, if the direction didn’t work for you, fine, there’s nothing wrong with that. I’m still trying to accept that I can’t change that (for me this isn’t about being “right,” I just want you to see why this is a good movie so you can enjoy it). It worked for me, and I’d wager it’d be near impossible for anyone to change that (certainly now after having heard every possible complaint for the past month). So yeah, I think we really are going pointlessly in circles.

Well, I think criticisms work two ways. It’s partly about expectations, or wishing it had taken a different route. In that respect I agree, it’s not the creator’s fault for taking things into his preferred direction. However, much of the criticsm is also leveled at other aspects of film making, whether there are tonal issues, whether the story’s original, whether the characters are well developed, and or consistent. These are issues people have with the film, that cannot be simply attributed to expectations, or wanting things to go a different route. It’s all still subjective of course, as any opinion is, but to the critics these are weaknesses of the film, that exist even if they accept the basic premise of RJ’s story.

For example I believe, I would have accepted Luke’s arc in this film, if the relationship between Luke and Ben Solo had been better developed. RJ could have added a few more flashbacks to flesh out the backstory, or some exposition reminiscent of Obi-Wan’s “good friend” tale in ANH. If it would have been established, that Luke and young Ben were once very close, we would understand Luke’s heartbreak better when it all went bad. It also would have worked better if the story didn’t end up repeating the Empire vs rebels dynamic, which is a problem of originality. That way not all of our classic hero’s accomplishments would have been undone, because they would be facing a different challenge and situation.

Oooh boy, there’s a lot I want to say about this but I promise I will not. I’ve been trying to get out of this thread for awhile now. I think if I publicly make a promise to stay out of it I’ll be able to stick to it easier.

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

SilverWook said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).

Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.

He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.

Did we even watch the same movie? The idea that Luke died a failure… clearly that was not what happened.

Mmm, let me see. Luke was instrumental in bringing peace and justice back to the galaxy. He wanted to train a new generation of Jedi. He made a mistake, and ended up failing his students, and by running away rather than fix that mistake, he allowed a second darkness to take over the galaxy. He is partly responsible for that. Luke’s legacy is one of failure. While he has provided hope for a future generation, it is now up to the next generation to fix his mess. Luke is like a guy with huge debts, who after refusing to pay them, dies just after providing his heirs the hope of paying off those debts in time. That is not a legacy of success in any shape or form.

By that logic, Obi Wan and Yoda are even bigger failures. 😉

They are failures for not recognizing the risk Anakin presented, and for failing to stop Palpatine, but they at least did everything in their power to reverse the situation. In my view Luke is a far bigger failure, for not even attempting to fix his mistake, and refusing to help even when he was asked in a most desperate hour. He came around it the end, but only when the situation had completely spun out of control, something that might not have happened, if he had acted like a true Jedi years earlier.

Well, this would devolve into a lot of prequel talk, but let’s just say that Obi-wan, Yoda, and Mace are responsible for Anakin’s fall. It was a failure to teach him how to handle his emotions. Luke thinks he made the same mistake with Ben, but the conversation between Han and Leia clearly shows that Ben was troubled long before training with Luke. Luke did fail to see the darkness in Ben much as the PT Jedi failed to sense Palpatine and Anakin’s weakness.

As for Luke’s fame post ROTJ, the galaxy would want to know how Vader and the Emperor died. And I’m sure Han and Leia had a hand in spreading the word. As has been pointed out before, this is the stuff of legends. But TFA made it clear that the events of the OT were widely known. Rey heard about them on Jakku.

Yes, but not necessarily the specifics of Vader’s redemption. Imagine Luke arriving at the Ewok party and telling the rebels - many of whom would have lost wives and kids and friends and entire worlds to Vader and his Empire - that Vader was his Dad and that he’d turned out to be a swell guy! I mean Luke would’ve been lynched, and rightly so. It just seems to me that the only thing worthy of ‘legend’ is the notion that a Jedi named Luke Skywalker defeated Emperor Palpatine. Beyond that vague ‘fact’, Luke’s story is merely a kind of self-absorbed religious family drama rather than the stuff of legends.

Funnily enough before I wrote this post, my wife pointed out that Leia may have told Rey the specifics of Vader’s redemption just before sending Rey to meet Luke. That makes more sense to me than a legend springing from Luke’s having his butt saved by Dad who’d had a sudden change of heart (while the actual war raged outside).

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

ZigZig said:

I have a strange Groundhog Day feeling.

Same. It just struck me I honestly don’t know what the fuck I’m doing.

It’s all there in the film. If you don’t like it, fine. If you don’t want to accept it, fine. But it’s there, and it works for me and a lot of people. I truly don’t know why I bother, I’ve been arguing about this movie for more than a month and it feels like I’ve basically accomplished nothing at all.

Just because you have an opinion, doesn´t mean it´s right. Just because it works for you, doesn´t imply there´s some truth that everyone else is missing.

I might argue you are ignoring obvious problems with the film. It’s all there in the film. If you like it, fine. If you don’t want to accept it, fine. But it’s there, and it ruins the film for me and a lot of people. I truly don’t know why I bother, I’ve been arguing about this movie for more than a month and it feels like I’ve basically accomplished nothing at all.

That like yours would be a fallacious argument.

One thing I do agree with is, that we´re going around in circles, which is sort of pointless.

I never said I was right. I’m just saying that most of the stuff I keep arguing about is justified in the film itself. There’s nothing wrong with not accepting something the film presents or wishing it had taken a different route. I really mean it, that’s fine. But I can’t keep arguing like this, I’m basically just explaining the movie (and don’t take this to mean that I think you didn’t get the movie, that’s not what I’m saying! as for the “obvious problems,” I didn’t catch barely any at all until I logged on here, so I guess in this regard I’m the one who “didn’t get it” haha).

Like I said, if the direction didn’t work for you, fine, there’s nothing wrong with that. I’m still trying to accept that I can’t change that (for me this isn’t about being “right,” I just want you to see why this is a good movie so you can enjoy it). It worked for me, and I’d wager it’d be near impossible for anyone to change that (certainly now after having heard every possible complaint for the past month). So yeah, I think we really are going pointlessly in circles.

Well, I think criticisms work two ways. It’s partly about expectations, or wishing it had taken a different route. In that respect I agree, it’s not the creator’s fault for taking things into his preferred direction. However, much of the criticsm is also leveled at other aspects of film making, whether there are tonal issues, whether the story’s original, whether the characters are well developed, and or consistent. These are issues people have with the film, that cannot be simply attributed to expectations, or wanting things to go a different route. It’s all still subjective of course, as any opinion is, but to the critics these are weaknesses of the film, that exist even if they accept the basic premise of RJ’s story.

For example I believe, I would have accepted Luke’s arc in this film, if the relationship between Luke and Ben Solo had been better developed. RJ could have added a few more flashbacks to flesh out the backstory, or some exposition reminiscent of Obi-Wan’s “good friend” tale in ANH. If it would have been established, that Luke and young Ben were once very close, we would understand Luke’s heartbreak better when it all went bad. It also would have worked better if the story didn’t end up repeating the Empire vs rebels dynamic, which is a problem of originality. That way not all of our classic hero’s accomplishments would have been undone, because they would be facing a different challenge and situation.

Oooh boy, there’s a lot I want to say about this but I promise I will not. I’ve been trying to get out of this thread for awhile now. I think if I publicly make a promise to stay out of it I’ll be able to stick to it easier.

I made those promises, and it didn’t work, sadly. Once you start reading through other people’s posts, it’s just too tempting to respond, and before you know it you’re walking in circles again. I guess not reading the thread at all would be a solution.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

ZigZig said:

I have a strange Groundhog Day feeling.

Same. It just struck me I honestly don’t know what the fuck I’m doing.

It’s all there in the film. If you don’t like it, fine. If you don’t want to accept it, fine. But it’s there, and it works for me and a lot of people. I truly don’t know why I bother, I’ve been arguing about this movie for more than a month and it feels like I’ve basically accomplished nothing at all.

Just because you have an opinion, doesn´t mean it´s right. Just because it works for you, doesn´t imply there´s some truth that everyone else is missing.

I might argue you are ignoring obvious problems with the film. It’s all there in the film. If you like it, fine. If you don’t want to accept it, fine. But it’s there, and it ruins the film for me and a lot of people. I truly don’t know why I bother, I’ve been arguing about this movie for more than a month and it feels like I’ve basically accomplished nothing at all.

That like yours would be a fallacious argument.

One thing I do agree with is, that we´re going around in circles, which is sort of pointless.

I never said I was right. I’m just saying that most of the stuff I keep arguing about is justified in the film itself. There’s nothing wrong with not accepting something the film presents or wishing it had taken a different route. I really mean it, that’s fine. But I can’t keep arguing like this, I’m basically just explaining the movie (and don’t take this to mean that I think you didn’t get the movie, that’s not what I’m saying! as for the “obvious problems,” I didn’t catch barely any at all until I logged on here, so I guess in this regard I’m the one who “didn’t get it” haha).

Like I said, if the direction didn’t work for you, fine, there’s nothing wrong with that. I’m still trying to accept that I can’t change that (for me this isn’t about being “right,” I just want you to see why this is a good movie so you can enjoy it). It worked for me, and I’d wager it’d be near impossible for anyone to change that (certainly now after having heard every possible complaint for the past month). So yeah, I think we really are going pointlessly in circles.

Well, I think criticisms work two ways. It’s partly about expectations, or wishing it had taken a different route. In that respect I agree, it’s not the creator’s fault for taking things into his preferred direction. However, much of the criticsm is also leveled at other aspects of film making, whether there are tonal issues, whether the story’s original, whether the characters are well developed, and or consistent. These are issues people have with the film, that cannot be simply attributed to expectations, or wanting things to go a different route. It’s all still subjective of course, as any opinion is, but to the critics these are weaknesses of the film, that exist even if they accept the basic premise of RJ’s story.

For example I believe, I would have accepted Luke’s arc in this film, if the relationship between Luke and Ben Solo had been better developed. RJ could have added a few more flashbacks to flesh out the backstory, or some exposition reminiscent of Obi-Wan’s “good friend” tale in ANH. If it would have been established, that Luke and young Ben were once very close, we would understand Luke’s heartbreak better when it all went bad. It also would have worked better if the story didn’t end up repeating the Empire vs rebels dynamic, which is a problem of originality. That way not all of our classic hero’s accomplishments would have been undone, because they would be facing a different challenge and situation.

Oooh boy, there’s a lot I want to say about this but I promise I will not. I’ve been trying to get out of this thread for awhile now. I think if I publicly make a promise to stay out of it I’ll be able to stick to it easier.

I made those promises, and it didn’t work, sadly. Once you start reading through other people’s posts, it’s just too tempting to respond, and before you know it you’re walking in circles again. I guess not reading the thread at all would be a solution.

One thing that I’ve done in the past is type up a response… and then not post it.

I don’t mind reading this thread and occasionally posting in it, I just can’t keep getting into dead-end arguments.

Shopping Maul said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

SilverWook said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).

Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.

He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.

Did we even watch the same movie? The idea that Luke died a failure… clearly that was not what happened.

Mmm, let me see. Luke was instrumental in bringing peace and justice back to the galaxy. He wanted to train a new generation of Jedi. He made a mistake, and ended up failing his students, and by running away rather than fix that mistake, he allowed a second darkness to take over the galaxy. He is partly responsible for that. Luke’s legacy is one of failure. While he has provided hope for a future generation, it is now up to the next generation to fix his mess. Luke is like a guy with huge debts, who after refusing to pay them, dies just after providing his heirs the hope of paying off those debts in time. That is not a legacy of success in any shape or form.

By that logic, Obi Wan and Yoda are even bigger failures. 😉

They are failures for not recognizing the risk Anakin presented, and for failing to stop Palpatine, but they at least did everything in their power to reverse the situation. In my view Luke is a far bigger failure, for not even attempting to fix his mistake, and refusing to help even when he was asked in a most desperate hour. He came around it the end, but only when the situation had completely spun out of control, something that might not have happened, if he had acted like a true Jedi years earlier.

Well, this would devolve into a lot of prequel talk, but let’s just say that Obi-wan, Yoda, and Mace are responsible for Anakin’s fall. It was a failure to teach him how to handle his emotions. Luke thinks he made the same mistake with Ben, but the conversation between Han and Leia clearly shows that Ben was troubled long before training with Luke. Luke did fail to see the darkness in Ben much as the PT Jedi failed to sense Palpatine and Anakin’s weakness.

As for Luke’s fame post ROTJ, the galaxy would want to know how Vader and the Emperor died. And I’m sure Han and Leia had a hand in spreading the word. As has been pointed out before, this is the stuff of legends. But TFA made it clear that the events of the OT were widely known. Rey heard about them on Jakku.

Yes, but not necessarily the specifics of Vader’s redemption. Imagine Luke arriving at the Ewok party and telling the rebels - many of whom would have lost wives and kids and friends and entire worlds to Vader and his Empire - that Vader was his Dad and that he’d turned out to be a swell guy! I mean Luke would’ve been lynched, and rightly so. It just seems to me that the only thing worthy of ‘legend’ is the notion that a Jedi named Luke Skywalker defeated Emperor Palpatine. Beyond that vague ‘fact’, Luke’s story is merely a kind of self-absorbed religious family drama rather than the stuff of legends.

Funnily enough before I wrote this post, my wife pointed out that Leia may have told Rey the specifics of Vader’s redemption just before sending Rey to meet Luke. That makes more sense to me than a legend springing from Luke’s having his butt saved by Dad who’d had a sudden change of heart (while the actual war raged outside).

I believe, canonically speaking, that Vader’s redemption is not widely known. Most likely it was assumed that Luke defeated him and the Emperor.

And yeah, I think Leia told Rey all about that. It doesn’t really make sense that she’d have learned that from anywhere else.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

ZigZig said:

I have a strange Groundhog Day feeling.

Same. It just struck me I honestly don’t know what the fuck I’m doing.

It’s all there in the film. If you don’t like it, fine. If you don’t want to accept it, fine. But it’s there, and it works for me and a lot of people. I truly don’t know why I bother, I’ve been arguing about this movie for more than a month and it feels like I’ve basically accomplished nothing at all.

Just because you have an opinion, doesn´t mean it´s right. Just because it works for you, doesn´t imply there´s some truth that everyone else is missing.

I might argue you are ignoring obvious problems with the film. It’s all there in the film. If you like it, fine. If you don’t want to accept it, fine. But it’s there, and it ruins the film for me and a lot of people. I truly don’t know why I bother, I’ve been arguing about this movie for more than a month and it feels like I’ve basically accomplished nothing at all.

That like yours would be a fallacious argument.

One thing I do agree with is, that we´re going around in circles, which is sort of pointless.

I never said I was right. I’m just saying that most of the stuff I keep arguing about is justified in the film itself. There’s nothing wrong with not accepting something the film presents or wishing it had taken a different route. I really mean it, that’s fine. But I can’t keep arguing like this, I’m basically just explaining the movie (and don’t take this to mean that I think you didn’t get the movie, that’s not what I’m saying! as for the “obvious problems,” I didn’t catch barely any at all until I logged on here, so I guess in this regard I’m the one who “didn’t get it” haha).

Like I said, if the direction didn’t work for you, fine, there’s nothing wrong with that. I’m still trying to accept that I can’t change that (for me this isn’t about being “right,” I just want you to see why this is a good movie so you can enjoy it). It worked for me, and I’d wager it’d be near impossible for anyone to change that (certainly now after having heard every possible complaint for the past month). So yeah, I think we really are going pointlessly in circles.

Well, I think criticisms work two ways. It’s partly about expectations, or wishing it had taken a different route. In that respect I agree, it’s not the creator’s fault for taking things into his preferred direction. However, much of the criticsm is also leveled at other aspects of film making, whether there are tonal issues, whether the story’s original, whether the characters are well developed, and or consistent. These are issues people have with the film, that cannot be simply attributed to expectations, or wanting things to go a different route. It’s all still subjective of course, as any opinion is, but to the critics these are weaknesses of the film, that exist even if they accept the basic premise of RJ’s story.

For example I believe, I would have accepted Luke’s arc in this film, if the relationship between Luke and Ben Solo had been better developed. RJ could have added a few more flashbacks to flesh out the backstory, or some exposition reminiscent of Obi-Wan’s “good friend” tale in ANH. If it would have been established, that Luke and young Ben were once very close, we would understand Luke’s heartbreak better when it all went bad. It also would have worked better if the story didn’t end up repeating the Empire vs rebels dynamic, which is a problem of originality. That way not all of our classic hero’s accomplishments would have been undone, because they would be facing a different challenge and situation.

Oooh boy, there’s a lot I want to say about this but I promise I will not. I’ve been trying to get out of this thread for awhile now. I think if I publicly make a promise to stay out of it I’ll be able to stick to it easier.

I made those promises, and it didn’t work, sadly. Once you start reading through other people’s posts, it’s just too tempting to respond, and before you know it you’re walking in circles again. I guess not reading the thread at all would be a solution.

One thing that I’ve done in the past is type up a response… and then not post it.

That’s actually a good suggestion. That way you can get it out of your system.

I don’t mind reading this thread and occasionally posting in it, I just can’t keep getting into dead-end arguments.

Yeah, me too.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

ZigZig said:

I have a strange Groundhog Day feeling.

Same. It just struck me I honestly don’t know what the fuck I’m doing.

It’s all there in the film. If you don’t like it, fine. If you don’t want to accept it, fine. But it’s there, and it works for me and a lot of people. I truly don’t know why I bother, I’ve been arguing about this movie for more than a month and it feels like I’ve basically accomplished nothing at all.

Just because you have an opinion, doesn´t mean it´s right. Just because it works for you, doesn´t imply there´s some truth that everyone else is missing.

I might argue you are ignoring obvious problems with the film. It’s all there in the film. If you like it, fine. If you don’t want to accept it, fine. But it’s there, and it ruins the film for me and a lot of people. I truly don’t know why I bother, I’ve been arguing about this movie for more than a month and it feels like I’ve basically accomplished nothing at all.

That like yours would be a fallacious argument.

One thing I do agree with is, that we´re going around in circles, which is sort of pointless.

I never said I was right. I’m just saying that most of the stuff I keep arguing about is justified in the film itself. There’s nothing wrong with not accepting something the film presents or wishing it had taken a different route. I really mean it, that’s fine. But I can’t keep arguing like this, I’m basically just explaining the movie (and don’t take this to mean that I think you didn’t get the movie, that’s not what I’m saying! as for the “obvious problems,” I didn’t catch barely any at all until I logged on here, so I guess in this regard I’m the one who “didn’t get it” haha).

Like I said, if the direction didn’t work for you, fine, there’s nothing wrong with that. I’m still trying to accept that I can’t change that (for me this isn’t about being “right,” I just want you to see why this is a good movie so you can enjoy it). It worked for me, and I’d wager it’d be near impossible for anyone to change that (certainly now after having heard every possible complaint for the past month). So yeah, I think we really are going pointlessly in circles.

Well, I think criticisms work two ways. It’s partly about expectations, or wishing it had taken a different route. In that respect I agree, it’s not the creator’s fault for taking things into his preferred direction. However, much of the criticsm is also leveled at other aspects of film making, whether there are tonal issues, whether the story’s original, whether the characters are well developed, and or consistent. These are issues people have with the film, that cannot be simply attributed to expectations, or wanting things to go a different route. It’s all still subjective of course, as any opinion is, but to the critics these are weaknesses of the film, that exist even if they accept the basic premise of RJ’s story.

For example I believe, I would have accepted Luke’s arc in this film, if the relationship between Luke and Ben Solo had been better developed. RJ could have added a few more flashbacks to flesh out the backstory, or some exposition reminiscent of Obi-Wan’s “good friend” tale in ANH. If it would have been established, that Luke and young Ben were once very close, we would understand Luke’s heartbreak better when it all went bad. It also would have worked better if the story didn’t end up repeating the Empire vs rebels dynamic, which is a problem of originality. That way not all of our classic hero’s accomplishments would have been undone, because they would be facing a different challenge and situation.

Oooh boy, there’s a lot I want to say about this but I promise I will not. I’ve been trying to get out of this thread for awhile now. I think if I publicly make a promise to stay out of it I’ll be able to stick to it easier.

I made those promises, and it didn’t work, sadly. Once you start reading through other people’s posts, it’s just too tempting to respond, and before you know it you’re walking in circles again. I guess not reading the thread at all would be a solution.

One thing that I’ve done in the past is type up a response… and then not post it.

That’s actually a good suggestion. That way you can get it out of your system.

I don’t mind reading this thread and occasionally posting in it, I just can’t keep getting into dead-end arguments.

Yeah, me too.

I have skipped hitting the “submit your reply” button a BILLION times in this thread as well 😋

NeverarGreat said:

Random Opinions on appearances:
I liked that Hux looked more sallow and haunted.
I liked how Leia looked more regal.
I liked how Snoke was a sassy jerk.
I liked how C-3PO and R2-D2 looked a lot more realistic somehow.
I liked Holdo’s…everything.

Oh, I agree with this. Very much.

Creox said:

The one fact that is missed in many discussions surrounding your points is that 30 years have passed.

No it just feels that way. Oh you mean in the movie! Sorry I thought you meant since this conversation started in the thread 😃

DrDre said:

....

WYSHS

Mrebo said:

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

....

WYSHS

Best point in this thread.

A new summary.

Mrebo said:

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

....

WYSHS

Best points in this thread.

WYSHS

ZigZig said:

TV’s Frink said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

We can argue about #rotjpigmen all day, but this is an open-and-shut case.

Hahahahahaha.

I was hoping someone would appreciate that 😄 Had to be you.

It was funny but not “haha” funny.

In other words, not why I was laughing.

Oh hey look this is the new summary of the thread so far.

I win.

Unfortunately inadmissible: it was not at the top of the page.

The top of page 191 would like a word with you.

The top of page 191 takes it all.