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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 179

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Michael Ward said:

DominicCobb said:

Yes, though I don’t know if I’d really call that fooling. Kylo should’ve known better, the Rebels weren’t fooled, they were inspired. Whether Leia knew something was up is open to interpretation (my guess is she ultimately knew exactly what was going on).

Her knowing would at least explain why she left the dice behind, but my opinion (just mine so everyone stay calm) is that Johnson just creates individual moments without worrying too much if they really fit together into a coherent whole.

So Poe seems to save the entire fleet from the dreadnought one moment and seems to have gotten the bomber crews all killed for nothing the next.

No, he didn’t get them killed for nothing… though it is said by Leia that the price paid was too high; also ‘Dead heroes - no leaders’.

And we watch the Jedi books burned up with satisfaction one moment as we know we need to move on from the past, and are relieved to see they survived later. And so on.

‘Satisfaction’? ‘Relieved’? Maybe these were the emotions or feelings you were feeling at the time? - but possibly not others’ emotions.

A little patience goes a long way on this old-school Rebel base. If you are having issues finding what you are looking for, these will be of some help…

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How do I do this?’ on the OriginalTrilogy.com; some info & answers + FAQs - includes info on how to search for projects and threads on the OT•com

A Project Index for Star Wars Preservations (Harmy’s Despecialized & 4K77/80/83 etc) : A Project Index for Star Wars Fan Edits (adywan & Hal 9000 etc)

… and take your time to look around this site before posting - to get a feel for this place. Don’t just lazily make yet another thread asking for projects.

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SilverWook said:

Shopping Maul said:

SilverWook said:

Forgot that little detail. (Yet I remember Creepy Tiny Purple Concept Art Yoda that was in early press runs.) Given the comics were done without the advantage of having seen the films that may have been an abandoned script idea.
I also seem to recall Vader hearing Luke’s call to Ben for help before he requests his shuttle.

Yes, that’s right! Wow, I had that original version (with purple Yoda). Wish I hadn’t given it up…

I have scans of those specific pages if you’re feeling nostalgic.

Really? Wow, that’d be awesome, but I can’t promise I won’t cry tears of nostalgic joy!

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chyron8472 said:

Shopping Maul said:

chyron8472 said:

Shopping Maul said:

adywan said:

Valheru_84 said:

All this Yoda calling lighting justification talk sounds to me like mental gymnastics 101. Yoda somehow via the force either creating, influencing, directing, etc. the lightning in TLJ just doesn’t sit right with me whatever the reasoning. Pre-ST force ghosts could not affect the physical world. Suddenly in the ST they can directly influence the force back in the real world.

Sorry but I don’t buy it anymore than I bought the ugly Yoda puppet. I also didn’t buy “crazy yoda” as he wasn’t crazy or unhinged in the OT, just a little eccentric and put on a crazy act to either test Luke in TESB or make himself seem harmless while checking out who this stranger was that just crash landed in his backyard.

Val

Yoda was joking around even when he was dying in ROTJ. He always had a jovial side. Something the PT completely got rid of with grumpy frowning Yoda. TLJ Yoda was the same Yoda we see in the OT.

And OT Force ghosts could interact physically with the real world, so why can’t they also use the force? Or is it just because it’s been introduced in the ST that’s the problem?

I don’t recall any physical interaction in the OT (apart from Obi Wan’s ludicrous ‘sitting on log’ scene which doesn’t really count IMO). The issue is the fact that ghost-Obi Wan made it plain he could not assist Luke in fighting Vader. This means either a) force-ghosts can’t interact or b) force-ghosts are jerks.

Maybe, as a Jedi, Ben Kenobi feels it is appropriate to let Luke face his own battles rather than directly interfering. To do so would disrupt Luke’s journey toward becoming a Jedi because it could turn Luke into a noob by relying on Ben to solve Luke’s problems.

That is, Ben could interfere, but chooses not to because it is inappropriate in order for Luke to forge his own path correctly. When Ben says “I can not interfere”, he’s referring to a moral code rather than a physical limitation.

I think there’s a nice simplicity to the idea of force-ghosts as personal guides only. Giving them discretionary physicality muddies the waters somewhat (as evidenced by this thread).

But Ben Kenobi says to Vader “If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.” Pigeonholing him then into someone only capable of talking would, I think, cheapen his potential power as a sentient non-corporeal being of the Force itself. Sure, he doesn’t do more than guide in the OT, but that doesn’t mean he literally can’t. The OT just leaves any further possible force-ghost powers a mystery because neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda use them.

My interpretation (back in the day) of Obi’s line was that he knew he’d be around in ghostly form to guide the new hope (you know who) to victory against the bad guys. I saw it as a subtle thing - the kind of power that would escape the notice of the power-hungry Sith. Kind of a ‘the power of knowledge’ type thing rather than "I’ll be God-like!!"
I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you. Obviously there is a lot of room for interpretation with these things, but I much prefer a ‘ghosts as guides’ model. There was a beautiful spiritual ambiguity to Force ghosts in the OT (and the Force itself for that matter) that I think has been demystified by subsequent films.

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I noticed the lack of footprints at my first view and my first thought was that Luke died in the blaster fire of the walkers and immediately came back as a force ghost. The fact that the blue lightsaber should be destroyed totally escaped me, though.

I also think it’s important to leave some clues for the audience, otherwise revealing that it’s a projection would be a cheap plot twist that only works at the first viewing.

Ceci n’est pas une signature.

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I’m still struggling with my antipathy for the Last Jedi. I enjoyed it on the surface. I enjoyed it’s set pieces. I enjoyed some of the twists. Yet, I can’t shake my deeper sense, that TLJ has severely undermined the mythology, by deconstructing Star Wars.

Then I read this article:

“Deconstructing Star Wars and 'The Last Jedi: Understanding how the new movie went off the rails.”

http://www.weeklystandard.com/deconstructing-star-wars-and-the-last-jedi/article/2011020

I think this article describes many of my own feelings with regards to TLJ. In order to understand the film, I asked myself three simple questions: what? how? and why?

What does TLJ do exactly in my view? My answer is, that it attempts to deconstruct Star Wars, it’s myth, and legends, and replace it with a postmodernist point of view. The film to an extend recognizes myth and legend have a function, but at the same time makes it clear that they are not real. This view point is examplified in the final minutes of the film, where Luke faces off against the FO alone. The event is presented as a source of inspiration to the galaxy, and children in particular, but ultimately it’s all an illusion. The Star Wars mythology has become self-aware. In doing so Star Wars stops being a modern myth.

How does it do this? It does this by recycling many of the OT story threads, and set pieces, and placing them in a postmodern context. In broad strokes it tells the same story as TESB with some ROTJ thrown in the mix. As a Star Wars film it’s highly self-referential, characteristic of ‘postmodern’ writing. It’s the OT, but without what it considers to be mythological constraints. It replaces the heroes journey with anybody can be a hero. While on the surface this idea might seem appealing, it’s the implementation of this idea, that’s problematic in my view. Rey doesn’t choose to become a hero. The responsibility is thrust upon her by the Force. Darkness rises and light to meet it, says Snoke. Rey’s character doesn’t need to learn, progress, and struggle with temptation, because she apparently is the chosen representative of the light side of the Force.

Why does it do this? Here’s where the real crux is in my view. It does this without real purpose, meaning it doesn’t do this to tell an original story. TLJ sets the Star Wars universe back three decades. Luke’s act of defiance at the end of the film, while more symbolic, mirrors his heroic act at the end of ANH. The destruction of the first Death Star lit the fire that would destroy the Empire. Another Empire has to be beaten by a struggling rebellion, and another fallen Jedi apprentice has be be conquered by a new hope. We’re narratively right back to square one, which seems completely at odds with the idea, that TLJ puts the franchise in a new direction.

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Dre, oh dear. What an awful ad filled bit of clickbait crap!

“Understanding how the new movie went off the rails” Really?!

And then the guy spends the whole article comparing it to Tolkien.

If you really want an insightful deconstruction then listen to the Empire podcast, with Rian Johnson getting much deeper into the decisions, the story and the characters.

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Matt.F said:

Dre, oh dear. What an awful ad filled bit of clickbait crap!

“Understanding how the new movie went off the rails” Really?!

And then the guy spends the whole article comparing it to Tolkien.

If you really want an insightful deconstruction then listen to the Empire podcast, with Rian Johnson getting much deeper into the decisions, the story and the characters.

There’s nothing clickbait about it. The writer feels the movie went off the rails, and explains why he feels this way, and I agree with him. You probably don’t, and that’s fine, but crap? No siree! It’s certainly more articulate and respectful than your reponse to my post.

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[DrDre said:](It’s certainly more articulate and respectful than your reponse to my post.

Okay, back to your usual ‘passive aggressive’ self.

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Matt.F said:

[DrDre said:](It’s certainly more articulate and respectful than your reponse to my post.

Okay, back to your usual ‘passive aggressive’ self.

Only in response to a passive aggressive post by you. You reap what you sow, my friend.

I’m absolutely fine with you (or anyone else) disagreeing with the article and my post, but starting a post with “what awful clickbait crap!” does not invite friendly discourse, as you probably well know.

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I think the suggestion to listen to the Empire podcast and hear from Rian himself is a good suggestion though. You will only re-inforce your own feelings if you read an article like that Dre. Where-as you could actually get real information directly fromt he Horses mouth if you listen to Rian explain some of the decisions he made.

time to come clean - i haven’t listened to that podcast myself yet.

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dahmage said:

I think the suggestion to listen to the Empire podcast and hear from Rian himself is a good suggestion though. You will only re-inforce your own feelings if you read an article like that Dre. Where-as you could actually get real information directly fromt he Horses mouth if you listen to Rian explain some of the decisions he made.

time to come clean - i haven’t listened to that podcast myself yet.

I might give it a listen, although I did read the article. It’s always interesting to hear about a creator’s intentions. However, I also think a film should be analyzed on it’s own terms. The PT is based on some good concepts and ideas, but in the end it was the execution of those ideas that made it less than successful for me personally.

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ray_afraid said:

Matt.F said:

[DrDre said:](It’s certainly more articulate and respectful than your reponse to my post.

Okay, back to your usual ‘passive aggressive’ self.

Stop. Dre hasn’t said anything to antagonize you. Don’t be like that.

Agreed.

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DrDre said:

dahmage said:

I think the suggestion to listen to the Empire podcast and hear from Rian himself is a good suggestion though. You will only re-inforce your own feelings if you read an article like that Dre. Where-as you could actually get real information directly fromt he Horses mouth if you listen to Rian explain some of the decisions he made.

time to come clean - i haven’t listened to that podcast myself yet.

I might give it a listen, although I did read the article. It’s always interesting to hear about a creator’s intentions. However, I also think a film should be analyzed on it’s own terms. The PT is based on some good concepts and ideas, but in the end it was the execution of those ideas that made it less than successful for me personally.

You are right, that external analysis is good, especially for judging how well the creator did what they intended to do. But if you give Rian a chance to help form your thinking, before giving random upset joe-schmoe that same chance, the odds are you will come out with a slightly higher appreciation for the film, than if you go the other way.

And at the end of the day, i just want all Star Wars fans to be the happiest fans they can be 😃

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TV’s Frink said:

ray_afraid said:

Matt.F said:

[DrDre said:](It’s certainly more articulate and respectful than your reponse to my post.

Okay, back to your usual ‘passive aggressive’ self.

Stop. Dre hasn’t said anything to antagonize you. Don’t be like that.

Agreed.

I was sure that Dre used the force choke. wasn’t it obvious?

#ROTJPigMen

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dahmage said:

TV’s Frink said:

ray_afraid said:

Matt.F said:

[DrDre said:](It’s certainly more articulate and respectful than your reponse to my post.

Okay, back to your usual ‘passive aggressive’ self.

Stop. Dre hasn’t said anything to antagonize you. Don’t be like that.

Agreed.

I was sure that Dre used the force choke. wasn’t it obvious?

#ROTJPigMen

He just wanted Matt to have a nice relaxing nap. He’s a giver, that Dre guy.

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dahmage said:

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

I think the suggestion to listen to the Empire podcast and hear from Rian himself is a good suggestion though. You will only re-inforce your own feelings if you read an article like that Dre. Where-as you could actually get real information directly fromt he Horses mouth if you listen to Rian explain some of the decisions he made.

time to come clean - i haven’t listened to that podcast myself yet.

I might give it a listen, although I did read the article. It’s always interesting to hear about a creator’s intentions. However, I also think a film should be analyzed on it’s own terms. The PT is based on some good concepts and ideas, but in the end it was the execution of those ideas that made it less than successful for me personally.

You are right, that external analysis is good, especially for judging how well the creator did what they intended to do. But if you give Rian a chance to help form your thinking, before giving random upset joe-schmoe that same chance, the odds are you will come out with a slightly higher appreciation for the film, than if you go the other way.

And at the end of the day, i just want all Star Wars fans to be the happiest fans they can be 😃

I agree. In the end I appreciate Lucas’ prequels more for what he tried to do with it, rather than what’s actually on the screen, and to be fair I appreciate Luke’s last stand in TLJ a lot more, since RJ explained his reasons for choosing to have Luke not be physically present at the end of the film. It’s actually my favourite part of TLJ.

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I share your discontent, Dre. Pretty good article, I agree with the observation that appeals to hope in the film felt hollow.

The Empire podcast was decent, not very deep but gave some insight on RJ’s thinking. The hosts were alright but their gender political take on the film was cringy.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Mrebo said:

I share your discontent, Dre. Pretty good article, I agree with the observation that appeals to hope in the film felt hollow.

The Empire podcast was decent, not very deep but gave some insight on RJ’s thinking. The hosts were alright but their gender political take on the film was cringy.

Let’s not have any more discussion of that in here mate.

Warnings have been issued - violators will be banned.

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DrDre said:

Luke’s act of defiance at the end of the film, while more symbolic, mirrors his heroic act at the end of ANH. The destruction of the first Death Star lit the fire that would destroy the Empire. Another Empire has to be beaten by a struggling rebellion, and another fallen Jedi apprentice has be be conquered by a new hope. We’re narratively right back to square one, which seems completely at odds with the idea, that TLJ puts the franchise in a new direction.

Ok, here’s where I have to step in again. I find that entire paragraph - hard to argue with.

BOOM

See what I did there? Like TLJ, I went in a different direction than you may have anticipated.
My post rhymed with Dre’s. It’s Rian Theory®

I don’t have as much of a problem with the reset as some. However, I will say I’m a bit disappointed that it was all billed as some sort of radical new direction for the franchise and really ended up just being a reset. For the record, I didn’t much care either way what the film would be with regard to the franchise. I have my two films, so anything else is just gravy. If it all helps the franchise become more respected and fun, even better.

Now JJ is free to do whatever he wants - and that’s not a bad thing. Maybe he’ll come up with what a great many of us had hoped TFA would have been. He has a clean slate and a few characters fans like and are following.

Personally, I hope he gives Rose a much more substantial role and deepens the character, and of course, you can never have too much Chewie. Beyond that, I’m fine waiting to see what they do. The way TLJ blew up everything and cleared the board, they could start a new trilogy now. The past two films could serve as a prequel duology for Rey, Finn, Poe, and Rose. We know why they’re here, now lets go on an adventure with them.

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I guess I really didn’t like TFA’s setups and world building and I’m faulting TLJ for not answering questions that TFA should’ve answered in itself, so I guess I’m not being fair.

“How did the FO get almost limitless resources?” “Wtf is Snoke?” Well that’s more for TFA than for TLJ. TLJ did explain Kylo’s story, for example, even though I didn’t like the part Luke played in it.

Like Mithrandir said several pages ago, what RJ did with Luke was possibly the best way to go given what was setup in VII. The only thing I still disagree with RJ is that I don’t think Luke would ever even consider murdering Ben in his sleep, nor that it’d be something or some kind of instinct that would pass like a fleeting shadow.

I’m still not sure about most aspects of the movie though, but I tend to have somewhat negative feelings towards it. Both sides of all arguments have very good points though, which makes it very hard for me to make up my mind.

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Collipso said:

I guess I really didn’t like TFA’s setups and world building and I’m faulting TLJ for not answering questions that TFA should’ve answered in itself, so I guess I’m not being fair.

“How did the FO get almost limitless resources?” “Wtf is Snoke?” Well that’s more for TFA than for TLJ. TLJ did explain Kylo’s story, for example, even though I didn’t like the part Luke played in it.

Like Mithrandir said several pages ago, what RJ did with Luke was possibly the best way to go given what was setup in VII. The only thing I still disagree with RJ is that I don’t think Luke would ever even consider murdering Ben in his sleep, nor that it’d be something or some kind of instinct that would pass like a fleeting shadow.

I’m still not sure about most aspects of the movie though, but I tend to have somewhat negative feelings towards it. Both sides of all arguments have very good points though, which makes it very hard for me to make up my mind.

I agree. JJ left Johnson in a difficult if not impossible spot. I think Johnson made things worse, but JJ just handed him all the issues he couldn’t figure out how to deal with in his movie.

And as much as I don’t like the way Luke acts in this movie, the Luke-Rey-Kylo-Snoke storyline in this movie is not bad. My biggest complaints are with the Leia-Poe-Finn-Rose storyline.

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Collipso said:
Like Mithrandir said several pages ago, what RJ did with Luke was possibly the best way to go given what was setup in VII. The only thing I still disagree with RJ is that I don’t think Luke would ever even consider murdering Ben in his sleep, nor that it’d be something or some kind of instinct that would pass like a fleeting shadow.

I don’t completely agree. Han said in TFA, that Luke went looking for the First Jedi Temple. This in my view implies two things:

  1. The location of the First Jedi Temple was unknown, and it may have taken Luke quite a while to find it.
  2. Luke went there for a reason.

Then theres are these lines in the TFA screenplay, which describe my sense of the final scenes of TFA pretty well:

“Older now, white hair, bearded. He looks at Rey. A kindness in his eyes, but there’s something tortured, too. He doesn’t need to ask her who she is, or what she is doing here. His look says it all.”

So, I always assumed Luke went looking for the First Jedi Temple to find some answers for how to deal with his failed attempt to rebuild the Jedi Order. While there he discovers Rey may have an important role to play in the future of the Jedi amongst other things, and knows she will come to find him, when the time is right. This is why Luke stands there in ceremonial Jedi robes. The master is waiting for the student.

I’m convinced JJ had a very different idea in mind, when he filmed that final scene.

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Having seen the film four times and having read a lot of opinions, I think I see some of the problem. Rian wrote Kylo too well. And while his words failed to convince Rey, they seem to have convinced some members of the audience. Kylo is trying to destroy the past. That is his thing. That is not the story that RJ gave us.

TLJ is a mirror of TESB. It is in a different time and setting and the purpose of the story is very different. TESB was a personal journey for the characters while the Rebellion, having successfully escaped Hoth, rendezvoused and regrouped, untouched by the Empire. TLJ sees the Resistance flee the FO only to be followed, hounded, and nearly annihilated. But we still get the same journey for our characters. In both cases it is of personal growth. In TESB, Luke is trained by Yoda and Han and Leia finally admit their feelings. In TLJ, Rey seeks training form Luke, only to find him unwilling, so she takes what little he had offered her and the ancient texts. But she got to him and her actions bring Luke to help the Resistance in their time of need. Luke distracts while Rey rescues. Poe learns how to be a leader instead of just a foolhardy hero. Finn grows form someone always wanted to run to someone now willing to stand and fight. Neither movie takes the wider conflict any further. The FO had destroyed two Resistance bases and reduced the their number, but not their message, and the Resistance has destroyed two of the FO’s largest ships.

The question is, what’s next. We now know that Abrams and RJ coordinated some between TFA and TLJ. The screenplay for TLJ was already written before TFA was finished and led to some edits to TFA. And given that Abrams had a TV background, I think we can assume that they are telling a coordinated story. There was a story for IX. No idea what direction it will take now that Carrie has left us. Will Abrams junk it or just rework it? Who knows. But at the end of TESB we are left with Han frozen and the rebellion baseless. In TLJ we are left with the characters intact but the Resistance in shambles, but with hope. But in TESB, we have a galaxy wide Empire that is strong and unwavering. In TLJ, we have a First Order just beginning its conquest, not yet cemented or truly in power yet. The crawl uses the word reigns, but I take that to mean there is no force to oppose them rather than they have actually taken over anything and the rest of the text of the crawl agrees with that as does the movie dialog. It also provides a reason why Leia’s call was not answered. But the final scene in the stable shows that Luke had again brought hope and if word has reached Canto Bight, it will spread across the galaxy and give courage to those who want to resist the First Order’s conquest.

I think that rather than deconstructing the mythology, this movie is just forwarding the mythology in a different way. RJ had an ending setup for IX. This was leading somewhere and he didn’t let Carrie’s passing change this story because I believe he knew how to rework the ending. The other director did not want to so Abrams came back. With his background in TV, and teams of writers and working on series that can introduce new twists, I bet they have something in mind for the IX finale. It may not be quite what RJ had in mind, but if they handed Abrams and ending and he sticks with it, it could be one hell of a movie. And I think at that point the mythology side of this trilogy will be obvious. The OT wasn’t a story of redemption until ROTJ. We are in the middle of this trilogy and I doubt we can see where it is going so jumping to conclusion such as deconstructing or resetting, is probably a bit premature. This was the setup the the saga finale. Seeing it as anything else is, in my mind, an unjustified misinterpretation.

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DrDre said:

Collipso said:
Like Mithrandir said several pages ago, what RJ did with Luke was possibly the best way to go given what was setup in VII. The only thing I still disagree with RJ is that I don’t think Luke would ever even consider murdering Ben in his sleep, nor that it’d be something or some kind of instinct that would pass like a fleeting shadow.

I don’t completely agree. Han said in TFA, that Luke went looking for the First Jedi Temple. This in my view implies two things:

  1. The location of the First Jedi Temple was unknown, and it may have taken Luke quite a while to find it.
  2. Luke went there for a reason.

Then theres are these lines in the TFA screenplay, which describe my sense of the final scenes of TFA pretty well:

“Older now, white hair, bearded. He looks at Rey. A kindness in his eyes, but there’s something tortured, too. He doesn’t need to ask her who she is, or what she is doing here. His look says it all.”

So, I always assumed Luke went looking for the First Jedi Temple to find some answers for how to deal with his failed attempt to rebuild the Jedi Order. While there he discovers Rey may have an important role to play in the future of the Jedi amongst other things, and knows she will come to find him, when the time is right. This is why Luke stands there in ceremonial Jedi robes. The master is waiting for the student.

I’m convinced JJ had a very different idea in mind, when he filmed that final scene.

I left TFA’s midnight screening with my brother and I remember we had the same exact argument (he was profoundly upset with TLJ and loved TFA). He was talking about how Luke had gone searching for the Jedi temple to learn,and how amazing that was and how he was being patient and amazing.

I said that I don’t think Luke would ever flee, and that I didn’t like how TFA treated his character. I do realize it’s a bit unfair to say that because he had 0 lines in the movie, but the idea that he simply fled and his friend died and the Republic died and all he did was… nothing didn’t resonate well with me.

In my opinion, what Mrebo wrote in the script rewrite section would’ve been perfect.