The execution of Han Solo’s character in Return of the Jedi is not perfect, and somewhat far from good/what it should’ve been with the message they were trying to say.
But he wasn’t contradictory to his character in the other movies like Luke is in Star Wars: The Last Jedi in any way whatsoever.
If I may amend your argument: The idea that Luke is a broken, haunted man 30 years later could work. The idea that he became so only within the last few years because he lacked the wisdom and control to deal with a relative tempted by the dark side is not terribly convincing. That part is, as you say, contradictory. Beloved characters can be taken in directions we may not love, but there is a greater call to have it be convincing. A moment of madness followed by total capitulation doesn’t line up with Luke at the end of ROTJ, absent more than Ben’s flirtations with the dark side.
The blue elephant in the room.
Of course it was one of the Falcon’s escape pods.
I’m wondering if the design of the escape pod was inspired by Jabba the Hutt’s “favorite decoration”. Which would be tempting for a movie in the same trilogy position as Empire.
Monolithic slab, Rey’s face and hand positions, etc.
Going to look for this in my next viewing.
The execution of Han Solo’s character in Return of the Jedi is not perfect, and somewhat far from good/what it should’ve been with the message they were trying to say.
But he wasn’t contradictory to his character in the other movies like Luke is in Star Wars: The Last Jedi in any way whatsoever.If I may amend your argument: The idea that Luke is a broken, haunted man 30 years later could work. The idea that he became so only within the last few years because he lacked the wisdom and control to deal with a relative tempted by the dark side is not terribly convincing. That part is, as you say, contradictory. Beloved characters can be taken in directions we may not love, but there is a greater call to have it be convincing. A moment of madness followed by total capitulation doesn’t line up with Luke at the end of ROTJ, absent more than Ben’s flirtations with the dark side.
Yes, if I may quote DrDre some 30ish pages ago:
"Rey’s fast progression from junk dealer to Jedi is not a matter of originality, but consistency. There can’t be more than a few days to a few weeks between the start of TFA and the ending of TLJ. As a matter of fact TLJ takes place over a matter of hours, considering the whole out of fuel plot. In that time Rey is given a highly condensed version of Luke’s arc over two films, starting on a backwater planet to learn the ways of the Force, and ending up in the big bad’s throne room, and finally as the last Jedi. The problem here of course is, that she hardly recieves any training, and ultimately isn’t really tested or suffers any serious setbacks. She crawls through a river of **** and comes out clean at the end, apparently greater and wiser than Luke Skywalker himself, making the old Jedi Master redundant to the point, that he can die at peace mirroring Yoda’s death in ROTJ.
While Snoke’s death was shocking, and overall reasonably well executed, he’s reduced to a plot device, because his character hasn’t been properly set up, or his history and motivations explained. His function seems merely to prop up Kylo Ren, who after being deflated at the end of TFA, now is reinvented as the big bad of the ST, but without the necessary development and character growth. This criticism again is not a matter of originality, but story and character development.
The criticism against the representation of Luke Skywalker is also one of consistency, particulary the idea that Luke would contemplate the murder of his nephew. This 180 degree turn in his character is severely underdeveloped, and only explained in a single scene in which he reads his nephew’s mind realizing Snoke had already won Ben’s heart. This also comes back to the complete lack of developement of Snoke, and the history between Snoke and Kylo. We’re now supposed to believe, that Luke who refused to kill his father and accept he was lost to the dark side, knowing all the terrible things his father had done under the guise of Darth Vader, now gives up on his young nephew based on a vision of the future, a future he knows to allways be in motion. This scene might have worked, if we had learned a bit more about Luke’s psychological state post-ROTJ. He could have told Rey, that his father’s death, and learning about the true magnitude of Vader’s crimes had left him emotionally scarred, and he grew obsessed with preventing the birth of another Darth Vader. He’d found the strength to forgive his father, but the price of his father’s redemption had been too great for the galaxy. If the whole Jedi order couldn’t prevent his father’s turn, how could he by himself create a new and stable Jedi order? So, against Yoda’s council, for years he had refused to train a new generation of Jedi, to pass on what he had learned, until young Ben was born, and against his better judgement decided to mentor Ben and a few other students. He wasn’t ready to be a teacher, and young Ben sensed Luke’s trepidation, blaming himself. Snoke ceased the opportunity to corrupt the insecure and impressionable Ben, leading to the scene in the film."
Good Force, I don’t get why people are making such a big deal of Luke freaking out one time. He turned his lightsaber on after being bombarded by the dark side Force coming from Ben, and he immediately felt ashamed and was about to turn it off and leave. Just because he helped Vader 30 years ago doesn’t make him infallible.
.
I think the rest of the plot/pacing being a bit of a mess caused people to miss the subtle Rashômon aspects of the scene being re-told. Make a more serious Jedi-only movie and you can explore that better, because the idea is great.
Good Force, I don’t get why people are making such a big deal of Luke freaking out one time. He turned his lightsaber on after being bombarded by the dark side Force coming from Ben, and he immediately felt ashamed and was about to turn it off and leave. Just because he helped Vader 30 years ago doesn’t make him infallible.
I think that the fact that Luke decided to go to Ben alone in the middle of the night and literally invade his mind is out of character.
And then, from my understanding, he pulled a “Jedi council on Vader” type of thing very similar to how it happened in RotS. And that’s weird because Luke’s Jedi Order would theoretically be the one to step aside from the dogmatic view of the old Jedi. That was so emphasized with Luke disagreeing with his masters every step of the way, with Luke being his own type of Jedi.
Qui-Gon and Luke are very similar in several ways, and Qui-Gon wasn’t accepted by the old Jedi Order. But even though Luke was totally aware of what happened in the prequels, he decided to start teaching the ways of the Jedi in a way he knew was wrong, and he made the same mistake that the old Jedi did too.
That’s one of the inconsistencies that bothered me in his character. I wouldn’t find it unbelievable had it been explained. Except it wasn’t.
One fear I have about the backlash against TLJ is that Lucasfilm might pull a WB/DC move and make overly reactionary decisions to “fix” things for IX and beyond instead of building on what worked. That was the major problem with both Suicide Squad and Justice League - instead of letting them both run their course and tweaking things from there on out, they made massive changes to both of them throughout production to respond to the criticisms of MoS, BvS, and SS (in the case of JL), resulting in the messy tonal whiplash of SS and the Frankenstein’s mosnter that was JL. I don’t want either of those things to happen with IX.
And before anyone claims that’s what happened with TLJ, it isn’t. TLJ was written and in (pre?) production before TFA even came out. If it was reactionary toward TFA, that was due to Johnson’s response to Abrams’ and Kasdan’s choices in VII, not the audience’s.
Considering the glowing critical reception and box office success, I doubt they’ll let a set of particularly loud fanboys change how they work.
Applying that logic, they are OT “fanboys” and you’re a TLJ “fanboy”?
Or maybe we could just leave the name calling out of it. As has been repeatedly stressed by mods in here - argue the point, don’t attack the person simply stating their opinion.
I don’t consider fanboy an insult. Just a descriptor. A small subset of diehards fans isn’t going to sway the direction of a series that caters to the widest audience of fans of anything out there, anywhere, these days.
Whether or not you consider it one, it is without doubt a derogatory term. Maybe not in it’s conception but I have only ever seen it used as a way to generalise, label and put down groups of people for whatever reason. Also I don’t completely buy that you’re only using it as a descriptor due to some other comments by yourself that has given me a feeling as to your demeanor towards people you consider “SW fanboys”.
DominicCobb said:
I don’t know what it is, maybe I’m tired of all the time I spent defending TFA, but I honestly don’t even think I can bother with trying to respond to a lot of these negative reviews. Maybe it’s the volume, maybe I’m just shocked that there’s even such an outcry to begin with. Our takes on the film are just so different that I honestly don’t know how to bridge that gap, besides just hoping these people see the movie again and get out of it what I, and many others, did. It’s really something.I’ve also been meaning to ask you for a bit about the above post earlier in this thread - why do you feel the need to defend TLJ by replying to every negative review? Is this not a “review and opinions” thread? I’m for civil discourse on varying opinions as much as the next reasonable person but your position seems to be that you feel obligated to actively fend off negative reviews of this movie, sometimes to the extent of really getting in people’s faces and almost aggressively singling them out when they’re just contributing their point of view to the thread.
I usually find your posts to be pretty good around here Dom but in this thread I’ve seen another side of you that isn’t very pretty.
.Val
Look at my posts and look at how many negative reviews there’ve been. It’s not even close. I respond here and there when I find a complaint particularly egregious or think I can actually reason with someone and show them why I disagree in hopes of possibly swaying their take. For the most part I just ignore, for the reasons I stated in the post you quoted - because for the most part some of the complaints are simply beyond my comprehension.
Also, I don’t know why you feel the need to signal me out. I’m far from the only one defending the film. I won’t lie that I’ve had little to do at work the last couple days which has left me looking for a way to past the time, but I hope I don’t seem aggressive in my rebuttals - unless, of course, someone is being misogynistic or disrespectful to people with mental handicaps. I don’t really know what you mean about seeing another side of me, honestly, unless it’s in regard to that.
Also, if the mods decide to ban me, just know that I don’t take back anything I said when I was calling people out for their backwards bullshit. I’m sorry if I won’t let that stand. If the admin team feels fine with keeping toxic shit in while banning people who speak out against it, I don’t see why I should be visiting this site anyway. If the mods don’t ban me, nice. Let’s try to clean this up.
I didn’t feel a need to single you out, it was only the post I quoted and the prevalence with which I’ve seen you continue to respond in this thread (at least up to page 26 and the last 10 or so pages since I started replying myself) that caused me to ask why you obviously feel this burden to defend TLJ against negative reviews in such a thread. I would feel equally curious if someone was actively defending against all the positive reviews. No harm in asking questions and offering your perspective on issues raised and there are definitely many others posting regularly in here, it just seemed from that one post of yours and your proliferation of posts in here that you had indeed taken up some vendetta against negative reviewers and needed to try and bring them around to your POV.
But anyway, I wasn’t trying to have a go at you. I was simply curious as to your position in this thread while also pointing out that the use of “fanboy” isn’t really appreciated. Seeing as where I fall in my view of the movie, your use of the term would obviously include myself and I don’t care for the generalisation on top of the general derogatory connotations anyway.
.Val
suspiciouscoffee, I think the reasoning has been explained pretty well why. It may seem like “making such a big deal” to discuss a particular aspect, but that’s just the nature of the beast. I agree with Collispo that this is merely one example of a broader problem with the movie. This issue with Luke isn’t simply that he freaked out - it’s how that aligned with what came before and why he didn’t use every effort to fix his mistake after.
The blue elephant in the room.
And now a message from Tv’s Frink.
I apologize for my overreaction and the distraction/annoyance it caused everyone, including Dre, the moderators, Jay, and everyone else just trying to read and post in a thread about a Star Wars movie.
I was also going to ask Dre to reconsider his announcement that he’s leaving the forum, as he’s a valued member of the community, but I see he’s already posting again. I’m glad to see it.
Where were you in '77?
Even when Frink’s not posting here, he’s posting here.
chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.
Ever when Frink’s not posting here, he’s posting here.
I’m a member of Fanedit.org and Frink is a mod there. Professional courtesy. Give the man a little credit for trying to apologize?
Where were you in '77?
Ever when Frink’s not posting here, he’s posting here.
I’m a member of Fanedit.org and Frink is a mod there. Professional courtesy. Give the man a little credit for trying to apologize?
It was a joke. The man is probably one of most active posters here. I was joking about him being here so often that he’s here even when he’s not.
chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.
Ever when Frink’s not posting here, he’s posting here.
I’m a member of Fanedit.org and Frink is a mod there. Professional courtesy. Give the man a little credit for trying to apologize?
It was a joke. The man is probably one of most active posters here. I was joking about him being here so often that he’s here even when he’s not.
Ok. No worries then!
Where were you in '77?
I’m gone for 2 years and Luke is ready to kill his nephew and Frink is banned…need better justifications for the motives of beloved characters!
Seriously: appreciate Frink’s note and look forward to his return.
The blue elephant in the room.
I’m gone for 2 years and Luke is ready to kill his nephew and Frink is banned…need better justifications for the motives of beloved characters!
Seriously: appreciate Frink’s note and look forward to his return.
Where were you in '77?
And now a message from Tv’s Frink.
I apologize for my overreaction and the distraction/annoyance it caused everyone, including Dre, the moderators, Jay, and everyone else just trying to read and post in a thread about a Star Wars movie.
I was also going to ask Dre to reconsider his announcement that he’s leaving the forum, as he’s a valued member of the community, but I see he’s already posting again. I’m glad to see it.
Good form from both members and I applaud their maturity and willingness to make amends. A good example for other members. Definitely also glad that both will still be around 😃
I didn’t for a second think that DrDre meant to actually offend anyone and I can understand Frink’s reaction though he could try and apply some self moderation and filtering as to how he lets such things affect him. I’m not in his position and so can never truly understand but I also don’t think he needs to take such personal affront unless it is actually directed specifically at him. People say insulting and insensitive things everyday to each other and in the vicinity of other people and it’s up to the individual on whether they allow themselves to be affected by those words or whether it’s just better for themselves to ignore it and move on with what’s important in life.
.Val
And now a message from Tv’s Frink.
I apologize for my overreaction and the distraction/annoyance it caused everyone, including Dre, the moderators, Jay, and everyone else just trying to read and post in a thread about a Star Wars movie.
I was also going to ask Dre to reconsider his announcement that he’s leaving the forum, as he’s a valued member of the community, but I see he’s already posting again. I’m glad to see it.
Glad to hear Frink is being sensibleabout this lil’ dust up. He mostly always is though.
Newt said:
“Mostly…”
Even when Frink’s not posting here, he’s posting here.
I laughed!
I’m gone for 2 years and Luke is ready to kill his nephew and Frink is banned…need better justifications for the motives of beloved characters!
I laughed again!
Looking forward to seeing Frinks avatar de-slashed.
Well, whatever you want to call it. The tossing it behind his back in a goofy manor. It’s not just about being goofy, but also him tossing the lightsaber like it means nothing to him.
I get what they were trying to do. They were trying to have hermit Luke act like a goofball similar to how Yoda acted in Empire. It just didn’t work and I doubt anyone 2 years ago would have said that’s how they wanted that Rey/Luke scene to go to in TLJ.
Completely agree.
A youtube review that comes closest to my view of TLJ. He has another video “The Rot at the Core of New Star Wars” that I think is mostly on target.
The blue elephant in the room.
I didn’t like Hux (in The Force Awakens). Maybe it’s his appearance, or age, or voice, or something but I have a really hard time taking him seriously as a successor to Tarkin. He just lacks a certain amount of menace that I think someone in that position needs.
Yeah, Hux is a joke. Imagine if we had Hux in A New Hope instead of Tarkin.
Hux also reminds me of the older Anakin in the prequels.
HelloGreedo’s TLJ review - 1st viewing : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH7GmkvXfl8
HelloGreedo’s ‘Everything You Think is Important is Not Important - The Last Jedi’ - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8YjTP5_SO4
HelloGreedo’s TLJ review - 2nd viewing : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JukGRiKpA3k
A little patience goes a long way on this old-school Rebel base. If you are having issues finding what you are looking for, these will be of some help…
Welcome to the OriginalTrilogy.com | Introduce yourself in here | Useful info within : About : Help : Site Rules : Fan Project Rules : Announcements
‘How do I do this?’ on the OriginalTrilogy.com; some info & answers + FAQs - includes info on how to search for projects and threads on the OT•com
A Project Index for Star Wars Preservations (Harmy’s Despecialized & 4K77/80/83 etc) : A Project Index for Star Wars Fan Edits (adywan & Hal 9000 etc)
… and take your time to look around this site before posting - to get a feel for this place. Don’t just lazily make yet another thread asking for projects.
I’d pay money to see just one detractor of this film demand a refund from the theater they saw it in and post proof of it.
The only reason I’ve demanded a refund from the theater was because someone had a screaming baby in there with them to watch a movie and I didn’t feel like listening to the baby scream the whole movie. I’d then tell them to please ban babies from the theater. This has happened several times actually.
I could almost guarantee that if TLJ’s story beats exactly matched expectations of what people were speculating, many people would have accused the film of being predictable and boring.
I would have settled for a competently told story, and one that spent less time on pointless sub-plots, useless characters, & cartoony gags, and more focus on the critical themes surrounding our hero’s struggles and growth as she takes the next step of her journey.
Because there never were any cartoony gags in the OOT.
Nope, not even close to the extent of the gags that were placed throughout TLJ. The only thing in the OOT that feels like a “gag” is the Tarzan yell in ROTJ, which fortunately is brief and not in-your-face, like the TLJ stuff.
Anyway, the gags are just one aspect of what’s wrong with the movie.
Forgetting Wicket hitting himself in the head with his own sling?
Cartoon physics when Paploo steals the speeder bike?
The slapstick only got worse in the SE’s. The droid in Mos Eisely hitting the other droid for example. Or the Jawas falling off the Ronto.
I thought it fashionable to hate on ROTJ, particularly because Ewoks. Has that changed?
ROTJ is my favorite Star Wars film. It might be “fashionable”, but in that haters-gonna-hate sort of way that gets tiring.
ROTJ is my favorite too. I recognize some flaws that were routinely identified on this forum when I was last here a couple years ago. On some points I disagreed with the naysayers.
Actually, I liked the Ewoks back in the 80’s and still do. I remember playing with that Ewoks village toy at daycare. I know some don’t like the Ewoks, but I thought they were fine. But I can understand why some don’t like them. And I know some don’t like them because they helped defeat the Storm Troopers with their primitive weapons.
Though I do think ROTJ is kind of a weak movie. Kind of like the 3rd Back to the Future movie. I think the Emperors throne room scenes really saves that movie. Actually those scenes are my favorite in all of the Star Wars movies.
If he was that unhappy he could have threatened to walk if changes weren’t made. It’s not like they could replace him.
And that’s hardly blasting the director.
I doubt that Mark could have walked due to contractual reasons. I also read somewhere that in Rian’s contract to do TLJ, that he had final say in the writing of the movie.
One of the issues I have with the new movies is the constant over-explanation of everything. Star Wars has never been subtle, but did we really need to see people with monocles and tuxedos on understand that these were rich people?
TLJ was a movie-equivalent of a Thomas Kinkade painting.
It’s an exclusive casino. What are they supposed to wear? Even Vegas has places they won’t let you in without a suit.
You never see anybody in street clothes in a casino in a 007 movie. 😉
The thing is Star Wars is in a galaxy far far away and in the distant past. So I’d prefer it if they kept our modern world out of Star Wars. ie. tuxedos, etc.
It’s like if Luke was running around wearing a t-shirt and jeans.
