Rogue One * Spoilers * Thread — Page 133

You could cut Vader out of the film entirely and it wouldn’t change the story in any way whatsoever.

DominicCobb said:

You could cut Vader out of the film entirely and it wouldn’t change the story in any way whatsoever.

it wouldn’t change the stand-alone story in any way worth crying about, but it certainly would raise more a few questions about how it ties in to ANH (or how it fails to tie in if you cut out Vader). thats my opinion.

dahmage said:

DominicCobb said:

You could cut Vader out of the film entirely and it wouldn’t change the story in any way whatsoever.

it wouldn’t change the stand-alone story in any way worth crying about, but it certainly would raise more a few questions about how it ties in to ANH (or how it fails to tie in if you cut out Vader). thats my opinion.

I definitely makes sense to put him in the film to tether the worlds of both together, but the plot of the original film doesn’t necessitate Vader being at Scarif, for instance.

I’m not saying Vader shouldn’t have been in the film I just mean to say that, if he’s going to be in it, he should have been a bit more consequential to the story. As is, neither of his scenes really accomplishes all that much.

DominicCobb said:

dahmage said:

DominicCobb said:

You could cut Vader out of the film entirely and it wouldn’t change the story in any way whatsoever.

it wouldn’t change the stand-alone story in any way worth crying about, but it certainly would raise more a few questions about how it ties in to ANH (or how it fails to tie in if you cut out Vader). thats my opinion.

I definitely makes sense to put him in the film to tether the worlds of both together, but the plot of the original film doesn’t necessitate Vader being at Scarif, for instance.

I’m not saying Vader shouldn’t have been in the film I just mean to say that, if he’s going to be in it, he should have been a bit more consequential to the story. As is, neither of his scenes really accomplishes all that much.

I mostly agree with that now that you explained it a bit more.

CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

Dominic, I see what you mean; of course his presence is not necessary. But you said in your earlier post that he “does not belong in this movie.” That’s a bit hyperbole, I think, and implies that his presence is damaging. I just wonder in what way you think his presence is damaging to the film.

I know I said that but I guess I didn’t really mean it in such a definitive way as “there’s no scenario in which Vader should be in this film.” I more meant “in this movie, as it is (not how it could be), Vader doesn’t belong.”

I don’t think the mere presence of him is damaging, I just don’t think they really do anything with it. His first scene with Krennic is completely perfunctory and takes away valuable time from the film that could have been used on any number of other things. His second scene, in the hallway, is worthwhile from a general SW lore perspective, but really, when looking at this film by itself, it really is kind of tacked on lip service, no matter how well done.

When you look at bringing back a character, you should ask what they bring to the film by being there. Now with a character like Dodonna or Red Leader, they’re bit roles in the original and bit roles here, that’s fine, nothing wrong with that. But Vader is such a big deal. Bringing him in, you should be asking “what is his purpose in this story?” He’s up at the tippy top with the Emperor, so on the one hand he didn’t really need to be in the film, just as the Emperor wasn’t. But of course Vader is also the closer, the guy you bring in to get shit done. So yeah, from the perspective of the character’s function in universe, what he does at Scarif makes perfect sense. When you look at the story of this film, however, this isn’t some sort of The Longest Day docu-drama type movie where we’re jumping around to different people throughout. This is the story of a very specific band of Rebels on a mission. So you need to look at Vader from the Rebels’ perspective. To them, he’s an unstoppable force of terror, much like the Death Star in many ways. He’s the embodiment of despair and the loss of hope against the war with the Empire. So there’s definitely a way to weave him into this story if they wanted to. The issue is, the Rebels never so much as mention Vader. He’s not a looming presence or anything. He certainly strikes terror when they go up against him, but that’s just one scene almost completely divorced from the narrative of the film beyond the simple “this is what happened next.” Because, by the time Vader shows up, the Rogue One team has already transmitted the plans, completed their mission, and all died. And the plans do make it on to the Tantive just fine. Vader’s just one last issue, a conflict for a group of red shirts we haven’t met until this scene. I wasn’t surprised when I heard that they added this scene late in the game, because if it was conceived during the initial development of the story I’m sure it would have been integrated better.

To be clear, I don’t hate the scene; it’s very badass and very well done, and from a lore perspective it’s totally awesome to finally see. Just, in terms of this film and this story, it’s not necessary.

While I don’t agree with everything Chris Stuckman said about Rogue One I appreciate him not being all condescending like Jenny Nicholson. I found myself agreeing more than not with her points but the way she states her case makes it almost impossible fore to rewatch her video criticizing Rogue One.

I watched Rogue One for a second time, and it still gets me pumped to watch the OT. It was great that they added Vader in the end of the movie, to tie in with Star Wars. I would’ve been ok if Vader wasn’t in Rogue One, but having him in it, just adds to the level of awesomeness.

imperialscum said:

Is it just me or was the walking pattern of Vader in R1 noticeably different from OT. On lava planet, Vader’s walking pattern seemed like a fashion model walking on the stage. In contrast, walking in OT is much more “robotic”, which I like more.

Admittedly, I only saw R1 once and my impression could a bit incomplete.

Can’t say I paid too much attention to Vader’s walking in his first scene with Krennic.
Maybe Vader just finished watching Right Said Fred’s “I’m Too Sexy” music video. 😃

imperialscum said:

Is it just me or was the walking pattern of Vader in R1 noticeably different from OT. On lava planet, Vader’s walking pattern seemed like a fashion model walking on the stage. In contrast, walking in OT is much more “robotic”, which I like more.

Admittedly, I only saw R1 once and my impression could a bit incomplete.

i think you are right that it doesn’t seem like Vader in that suit. I won’t see it again till i get the BD, but i recall the character seeming wrong in that scene.

Dominic, I see what you mean; of course his presence is not necessary. But you said in your earlier post that he “does not belong in this movie.” That’s a bit hyperbole, I think, and implies that his presence is damaging. I just wonder in what way you think his presence is damaging to the film.

It depends what you consider damaging. Vader’s scene is the most obvious reshoot material because he never meets the heroes face to face. It comes across as a very last minute addition (which it is). It also overturns their sacrifice by making the audience root for him instead. If he was written into the story effectively it might work, but it’s just an effects scene. To me Vader isn’t the sort of character who would even consider using his lightsaber this way, he’s too cool and collected. The ending should be about people with shades of grey feeling they have achieved something bigger than their own selfish ideals. Instead it’s just a spectacle, they hug, they die, now here’s a epic as hell lightsaber massacre ohhhooo yeaaahhhh. Oh but hope. It’s about hope.

SilverWook said:
Vader probably relished a chance to cut loose on some Rebel scum.

But he casually walks in and looks around at the dead troops like it’s just another day at the office. I see what you mean but the whole thing feels like the obligatory lightsaber moment. It’s trying too hard to be badass seconds after a sombre ending.

Mocata said:

Dominic, I see what you mean; of course his presence is not necessary. But you said in your earlier post that he “does not belong in this movie.” That’s a bit hyperbole, I think, and implies that his presence is damaging. I just wonder in what way you think his presence is damaging to the film.

It depends what you consider damaging. Vader’s scene is the most obvious reshoot material because he never meets the heroes face to face. It comes across as a very last minute addition (which it is). It also overturns their sacrifice by making the audience root for him instead.

I think this problem could be alleviated by having a main character stuck in that hallway with Vader. Maybe a current character could be rewritten to be in that scene, or it could be a new character. The idea is that the audience is hopeful because this character managed to avoid the destruction of Scariff, so we’re rooting for him to get out of there. Things are looking up for this character. Then the hallway scene plays out like normal, and this main character is cut down by Vader. That way the audience is conflicted, we’re rooting for the main character because we’ve spent the last 2 hours with him, but we’re also rooting for Vader, because he’s badass. The scene would carry more emotional weight than it currently does, because as it is Vader is just cutting down nameless rebels.

That being said, I still love the hallway scene. I think it totally makes sense for Vader to be there, and for him to be using his lightsaber in that way.