Updated first post with names of willing participants.
Maybe this has been noted elsewhere, but I think I just discovered something surprising and cool. Watching The Lost Rebels deleted scene from ROTJ, and the Mon Calamari sounds like Jim Henson/Kermit the Frog/Ernie to me. I thought, "I know George Lucas wanted Jim before he considered Frank Oz for Yoda. Maybe he finally got him to participate." Then at 4:47, the director is talking to him and calls him Jim! This may be old news to everyone, but I'm pretty sure that's Jim Henson under that Mon Calamari suit!
Simple, rough storyboard for first half:
Opening crawl is more dramatic. It sets up that Luke is on Dagobah finishing his training. Show Luke with Yoda dying and subsequent discussion. Show conversation with Ben afterwards. Show X-wing leaving Dagobah (flipped and slightly altered shot from ESB could work). Show Vader arrive at DSII, talk with Jerjerrod, etc. I'd love to include deleted scene with Luke's construction of lightsaber, but continuity would need to be fixed with Luke on Dagobah, and it's not really necessary. Show 3PO and R2 approaching Jabba's Palace and go from there. After defeating Jabba, use restored deleted scene of sandstorm (would require dubbing, but with the noise of the storm it might be easier to get away with this). Remove "promise to keep" line and Luke messing with hand. Show X-wing and Falcon leaving Tatooine and include a couple lines about "meet you back at the fleet" but remove now redundant lines. R2 beeps, Luke looks at hand and puts on glove, dark music, possibly slow, soft Imperial March, Luke says, "I just need to do some...thinking." Cut to Emperor arriving at DSII. More to come later.
The reason I don't think the saber construction would work in this plan is because Vader communicates with Luke after he's already talked with Obi-Wan and should already have had time "to do some...thinking." I really like this line because it would explain Luke's late arrival to the attack planning meeting and show that in spite of his successful defeat of Jabba and Co., he still feels torn up about his approaching destiny with his old man. He's also shown contemplating already about their similarities, and it would serve to mirror his severing his father's hand and looking at his own glove again later. He's already pondering how easily he could become just like his father. On top of that, his lightsaber is already on his belt on Dagobah and therefore would have to be digitally removed.
Neglify, I'm already the brilliant lazy director :) Actually I'm just kidding. I want to start this idea, but I doubt I'd be reliable as the guy who could forever keep the energy and vision in this project, as I will be even busier next semester according to my instructors. I feel like I have good ideas to contribute though and could help steer the direction somewhat, but I really intend no false humility when I say I am not talented enough to fill most if any of these roles. If/when this idea gets fleshed out, I think a new thread should be started by someone who could remain really devoted to this and keep the first post updated regularly. This person would have to be the most consistent and devoted member to prevent loss of the project.
I'm thinking of a potential rough storyboard for the whole movie, and I will probably post some ideas tonight. I agree with the thoughts of so many that Boba Fett deserved a greater demise, but I don't know how to truly pull that off. It seems that if he had escaped Jabba's Palace and later faced Han in a showdown on Endor, that would have served your subplot very nicely. I simply don't see it happening. I don't know what other options there'd be for a subplot.
@timdiggerm, I forgot to mention that I see your point, though I hope both purposes would be served equally well. That coincides with what you said, ben_danger about a multiple choice approach. I hope a focused plot would emerge with clips available for others to use, but I agree that these things should be available for all.
I had a thought that I bet most will disagree with: Vader should refer to Palpatine as Master Sidious at least once in ROTJ. There, I said it!
I didn't mean to actually fulfill the first stated name of this thread. I sent a PM. Hope he accepts my apology. Nevertheless, I don't want to aggravate the issue for at least a couple of days. I'm always cognizant of twooffour's example: he was so determined to prove his point that he would be long-winded (my problem as well) and utilize ad hominem attacks. I don't want to turn into that. I respect CP3S and don't want anything further between us. I felt my points were well made, but either way, I simply need to step away and allow others not caught in the emotion of the moment to address the issue. Thanks for your concern, Warbler. I respect you as well.
I like your post, mrebo, BTW. Very eloquently put, as always.
Aalenfae, I think you'd have several great areas of expertise, such as matted backgrounds, CGI, color correction, and editing. You of course don't have to take them all on, but you clearly have the skills. If I were to select my dream team, I'd probably pick you for CGI work, particularly working on my imagined expanded space battle.
I might not have much to offer, but I do some voice impersonations respectably, and I obviously like my own story suggestions, so hopefully I can do more than simply be a talent scout.
I think it would be beneficial to include the ROTJ Wishlist for Adywan as a starting point for considerations in this edit.
http://doubleofive.wordpress.com/rotj-fanedit-wishlist/
I also would respectfully submit my Battle of Endor ideas:
http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/ESB-and-ROTJ-Wishlist/post/554304/#TopicPost554304
http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/ESB-and-ROTJ-Wishlist/post/554768/#TopicPost554768
And my rough crappy cut putting some of these ideas in place, slightly changed from initial description:
http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/ESB-and-ROTJ-Wishlist/post/554719/#TopicPost554719
That whole thread, has great ideas, though, and should be skimmed for ideas.
Finally, I also suggest that we check out the Spence edit of ROTJ, as I especially like the ideas for introducing Luke on Dagobah and ending the movie with the funeral pyre.
EDIT: @Cobb, I agree, it should be kept at a good length. That is why my ideas have often involved adding deleted, additional, or newly filmed footage, especially in the Battle of Endor. That needs to be a grand conclusion, not simply an "excise the Ewoks" exercise.
C3PS said:
Whoa, over night this thread has turned into a sea of longwinded Darth Ender posts. Not even sure where to begin in responded to them, or if I should even bother to respond, given he has already stated that nothing will ever change his mind on the subject
You don't feel it is ignorant to attack the debater rather than the debate point? To me, the above quote sounds like that is what you are doing. To be fair to you, I also thought you were referring to me alone when calling the debate boring and close-minded and that you'd heard my points many times before. If you feel the same applies to all parties, which now I believe you are, I won't feel so offended.
I am passionate on the topic. I don't want to turn into twooffour here, so maybe I'll just step out of this debate for a couple of days. Let me try one last time to be concise, and from there I won't respond for a few days. Let me just say that I believe in a very grey world. Look at my politics arguments on torture, war, and supporting third world dictators. But when it comes to innocent human life, I see no grey area. If it comes between one person's life and the other person's worsened health and inconvenience, I choose the life.
And I'm sorry to do this, but I have to pre-empt any argument on the dictators who kill or justified war. If I believe that the end result will save more innocent lives in the long run, I feel that the ends may unfortunately justify the means.
Peace.
Not trying to be a moderator, and I simply tend to be long-winded. I created this thread with the suspicion that I would single-handedly defend my point, not expecting Warbler or anyone to come to the rescue. If several different points are raised, I feel compelled to address them all. I understand this is basic, and I'm not trying to be a moderator. But in case you couldn't tell *sarcasm*, I feel very passionately about this issue and felt that you simply were belittling the time and emotion I put into writing this. If my arguments are simplistic, then shut them down, but please don't simply say that my points aren't worth your response, as that is both insulting to me as well as among the most common and ignorant of debate tactics, since the one using it never actually has to address the point.
See, I don't have a talent for being concise.
C3PS, I admitted I would be long-winded beforehand, and I also admitted that I would not change my mind. Humorous you would call it a close-minded debate, as I've yet to see you change your mind in any of your arguments. This was meant to be a debate thread (see the title), and I doubt you or your colleagues are being any more open-minded to the opposite point of view. You're always quite welcome to not respond if you feel you've read them too many times before. I've read your point of view plenty as well, whether typed by your own fingers or someone who thinks just like you. But if you don't have the nerve to try to respond to what appears to be a minority opinion here, then go exercise your First Amendment rights somewhere else instead of simply making a mockery of your debating opponent.
*FUNCT?* ;)
Yes, this thread is no longer defunct. Emanswfan has stated that he would like to take over. This is wonderful, since he's actually got some editing experience to his credit. I feel I've offered what little I really had to offer. Now Disney, I mean emanswfan will be taking over the Collaborative ROTJ project. See his post announcing his willingness :) I do hope that one day this becomes an amazing reality. We just need able and willing people. I'm sure it can be done.
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*DEFUNCT*
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(taken from post 1470)
I loved this thread. I loved this idea. In a sense, I've given up on it. In another sense, I hope to see it come to pass. In any case, I feel it wasn't a waste. Let me tell you why:
I think there are two primary successes to be had from this thread:
1) There is great interest in a collaborative project. Many people working together could surely get a great deal done. It could get done faster, and it could be more thorough and radical. I know that Adywan and others have some collaboration in their work, but I think this could be taken even further with marvelous potential.
2) Return of the Jedi is a good film (IMO) regardless of whatever silliness doesn't appeal to others. but together, through discussion and debate, we've created an interesting potential edit, with many other ideas floating around that could be utilized, even if they're not in the script drafts I put out. Many fascinating thoughts were stated. The people here are brilliant at coming up with ideas.
I appreciate all the work others put into it. I really did enjoy watching videos like Johannus's trailer and Ronster's concept film. I like the mockup pictures and aalenfae's Anakin force ghost ending. There is so much to love about this project, as much of a failure as it may seem in the end. I never wanted to lead this project anyway. I merely wanted to inspire others to do it. I have a few more thoughts regarding its future:
1) I am finishing the script, somewhat based on the last vote, but admittedly taking a few liberties and changes. Some things just don't work for me. All the details you guys needed has been included, including the last vote. I will upload my final script very soon, because I really am working on it, and not merely saying that I'll get around to it.
2) I will post that and several links into my signature. My signature will be around even after I've lost interest in this site. Hopefully some future editor will find my script, your videos and mockups, this thread full of so many ideas. Hopefully that editor will be inspired but what he sees, and will make many of our ideas come to life. I have my doubts that Adywan is interested in the direction we took with many of these ideas, but perhaps even he might get some inspiration out of it.
3) There are two fan films out there that have a lot of potential for us: SW:THX and Tydirium (too lazy to find trailers right now). THX appears to still be at least semi-active, and Tydirium's site indicated perhaps it is restarting work. If either of these is ever completed, they offer great footage that could be wonderful for our edit. I'm watching Daneditor's work on his unreleased ROTJ edit (he made an edit that he released on FE.org, but this one is more experimental). He uses various lower-quality clips from numerous sources, and to surprising effect. Just imagining how it could look with a better source from a completed fan film makes me excited. Hopefully these see the light of day, and then editors will have much more to work with.
At the end of the day, I still love this film, and hope to see a completed, wonderful edit. Who knows when that will be, but I believe something great can come of it. Thanks to everyone who worked on it with me. You were a good bunch.
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(I am keeping the remainder of this first post as it was when I last edited it, just to give an idea of how the project went forward)
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I wish I were talented. I really love what I've seen done by the gifted fan editors on this site. That still hasn't stopped me of dreaming what I would do were I to create my own fanedit, but even if I had the software and hardware, I certainly don't have the time, patience, or natural gift. I preface my proposition with this because I understand that what I am suggesting is rather bold, considering my involvement would be limited to suggestions and ideas.
With the immensely enjoyable ANH:R and the upcoming ESB:R, I've been looking forward to a complete trilogy. I truly look forward to Adywan's finished masterpiece. But at the same time, I'd love to see an ambitious edit of ROTJ sooner. Unlike most on this site, I truly love ROTJ. But since I started visiting and reading here, I have learned that there are problems to the story that never really bothered me before. What I would love to see is an edit that would correct many of these issues and make this movie closer to the epic conclusion it once was.
The unfortunate thing about fan editing is that it is time consuming and difficult for the editor, not to mention the wait of the excited fans. Some editors are more skilled at one aspect or another. Many great edits burn out and the ideas with the edit may be permanently lost.
What I am proposing is an ambitious edit of ROTJ. It would require the collaboration of several editors who could focus on their specialties. It could be completed in a relatively short amount of time and could truly make a great edit. This is already getting long, so let me make a summary.
A collaborative ROTJ edit would need the following (in order of when they must be completed):
-Story direction (a collaborative process, but with someone acting somewhat as a director to keep things uniform). This includes ideas of how the story should be altered (i.e. tougher Ewoks), and how to implement these ideas
-CGI and/or model building, as such an ambitious edit would likely have additional ships taking part in the Battle of Endor. CGI would likely be needed at other points as well, such as if a line is altered and the editors wish to alter mouth movement to match.
-Additional actor footage, as it seems likely that such an edit would want more Endor commando action and more pilot cockpit action.
-Voice impersonation and dubbing, if new lines are added.
-Music composition, if changes were to be made, along the lines of TheCutter's ROTS edit. This could help with lengthened scenes or to better catch a mood. Could especially be useful for Max Lame-os' Band.
-Sound editing and splicing. If Darth Stewie or TheCutter have shown me one thing, it was how effectively lines could be spliced to change dialogue. Furthermore, other sound editing would be needed, obvoiusly.
-Mattes could be useful, and Angel has demonstrated how to create beautiful backgrounds that could beautify the movie without making it overly PT-like.
-Deleted scene restoration. This would be valuable for all editors, even those not taking part in such a project. Several of the ROTJ deleted scenes could drastically improve the story if incorporated, in my opinion. Some here have shown how to effectively fix up the low quality scenes, and perhaps someone could even upscale them from there.
-Color correction, to make it all match of course.
-Final editing. Rough edits would likely come out, at various points, including a storyboard-type edit early on. But when all the effects were completed, someone would have to ensure it all fits together smoothly.
Some might see this as a turn off because they do not wish to make a movie that would not meet their vision exactly. Well, that's part of the beauty of this idea. When your part of the movie is done, you can make your own edit using the same work. GL owns the rights to this anyway, so what is to stop you from using your work on the edit to fulfill your own vision? And the final product might save you several steps in making your own edit, as you could use it as a starting point.
One important thing to remember: all editors should share their work regularly. If someone feels like dropping out, their work should not disappear with them, and someone else could take up where the previous editor left off. This edit would allow the work to always move forward as long as someone still has the ambition to get it done.
The whole OT.com community could take some part in this, as many have brilliant ideas (such as my own :) and could offer voice impersonation and other skills.
First a team of at least two or three should begin formulating a plan. And taking part in only an aspect of the edit leaves more time to work on any previous edits you may have undertaken. Any takers? Any thoughts?
Project updates:
Confirmed participants:
CGI modeling/animation and other special effects:
aalenfae
Angel
Jaitea
Physical models:
Johannus
Background/mattes:
aalenfae
Angel
Lighting/Compositing:
Angel
Voices:
aalenfae
darth_ender
Sound/music editing:
timdiggerm
Music composition:
GoodMusician
Scriptwriting/editing:
darth_ender
Film editing:
MrInsaneA
Angel
Deleted scene restoration:
emanswfan
Deleted scene colorization:
TMBTM
Story ideas/storyboarding/streamlining:
Anybody who wants to help out!
Handy links:
ROTJ ideal ending post (a rough idea of how I picture ROTJ ending)
Most recently updated script/editing guide
The ESB and ROTJ wishlist thread (intended for Adywan's forthcoming edit, but ideas available to all, I imagine)
The Return of the Jedi Wishlist (intended for Adywan's forthcoming edit, but ideas available to all, I imagine)
How would you have done ROTJ? thread (discussion on alternate ROTJ plot lines)
Pilot cockpit discussion thread, (to help coordinate space and cockpit shots)
MovieMistakes.com ROTJ list (listing all the noted errors in the film for the perfectionists)
Star Wars Technical Commentaries (detailed analysis of ship sizes in order to accurately scale vessels for the final battle)
Movie Mistakes' errors made into a doc (I simplified the pain-in-the-butt movie mistakes into a doc, which means no ads and visually easier to read.
Potential Sources of Footage and lines (the preview shows a great deal of compression; actually downloading will reveal their true quality):
Star Tours clip from advertisement (possibly best quality, 4:3, interlaced, needs some color correction)
More complete Star Tours video (also decent quality but not as good, interlaced, seriously needs color correction)
Star Wars Interactive Video Board Game audio, part 1, part 2, part 3, part 4, part 5, part 6 (had a hard time extracting the audio, and a couple of these ultimately came out very short)
Star Wars Interactive Video Board Game post (actual game video in 19 rar files)
Implementing our ideas:
Sharpening the story:
First round of voting: who voted how; tally; winners/losers
Second round of voting: all results
Collecting the contributions:
darth_ender's stuff (updated on 2/13/12)
fishmanlee's alternate John Williams cues
ben_danger's collection of SSWR's suggestions
List of potentially useful footage (links forthcoming):
Star Tours (original) - over the surface of the Death Star
Star Tours: The Adventure Continues - approaching the Death Star
Star Wars: The Interactive Video Board Game - Vader walking down a Death Star corridor (needs expansion to improve resolution)
Ewoks: The Battle for Endor - Ewoks engaging in battle
Rebel Assault II - fighter cockpits (low resolution, only only acceptable as transmissions)
Fan Films: (list with descriptions forthcoming)
nightstalkerpoet said:
Mrebo said: CGI characters stand out. Even in the PT, they didn't entirely mesh. Forcing it into a movie from 1980 isn't going to be any better.
If you consider the way that Jurassic Park presented CGI dinosaurs, does it seem more viable? I understand ESB is an older film, but JP is an example of CGI coexisting quite well within a realistic film setting.
And I have an idea for how to make any new effects Lucas does decide to add fit in better with the original films:
Rather than adding things into the film digitally, CGI elements could be rendered seperately from the film. Those sequences could then be filmed as animation with the cameras originally used to shoot the films. The filmed CGI elements could then be composited into the film in the same way the original special effects were.
Jurassic Park actually used animatronics extensively, especially in interactions with people. I'm not saying it sure never be done, as I am not so turned off by CGI as much of this site is. I'd probably agree with Puggo on this as well. But I do feel that at the present, CGI still lacks some of the realism of puppetry (while obviously excelling it in some aspects). That is why I prefer a sort of hybrid, with the puppet forming the basis and the CGI simply improving without replacing.
Furthermore, you've wiped everyone's backside who has ever lived in a butt-wiping culture...
...I'm locking my door and never going outside again.
TV's Frink said:
I always thought it would be interesting to see how the abortion debate would change if men suddenly were able to give birth, or even better, if suddenly ONLY men could give birth.
You might be surprised. It is a fair assertion that women generally are more compassionate than men. More of the world might oppose abortion if the shoe were on the other foot and women didn't know what it was like to go through pregnancy, and would likely put human life above male discomfort and inconvenience.
CP3S said:
Warbler said:
darth_ender said: I will never understanding how someone can feel so passionately about women's rights that they feel justified in removing the right to life of another human.
while I am not pro-choice, I'll try to explain the logic used by the other side. It's as simple as this: they don't believe they are taking the right of life away from another human. They don't believe the fetus is a human yet. They believe you become a human when born, therefore to them the fetus is not human life. Since, to them, a fetus is not human life, it does not have human rights.
I think you speak for pro-choice people way too casually for someone who isn't one himself. While I agree, there is a large population that likes to believe it as you have explained it, but there are plenty of pro-choice people, myself included, who do admit that a fetus is, scientifically and by definition, a human life form. Everyone else is just trying to sell something, make themselves feel better, or split hairs to confuse the dumb masses, or are one of the dumb masses themselves.
It is human. It has it's own unique human DNA.
CP3S said:
darth_ender said:
How can we protect the lives of endangered animals and plants, yet treat unborn human life as trivial because we are not endangered? I'll never understand it. But you're welcome to try to make me. I'm ready to be outnumbered, but I assure you I am will not cop out on this topic.
Because we are selfish, and they take a lot of work and get in our way, and each one of them is pretty close to a 20 year investment.
It doesn't have to be a 20 year investment. I am sure you've heard of adoption. It really only needs to be a 9 month investment.
Have you looked into the adoption system? Foster homes and orphanages? Not as ideal of a situation as you'd like to think. End up with some pretty screwed up people from these kinds of places too.
And the repercussions of child bearing don't disappear after the ninth month... Not even necessarily nine months after that.
Also, you have to take care of yourself to bring a healthy baby into the world, a lot of women aren't prepared to do that. Do we force them to carry their babies to term, and if so does that mean we have to force them to sustain from alcohol, tobacco, and other perfectly legal things that may be harmful to the child we are forcing them to have?
I'm sorry that being a parent requires more responsibility than living the free life, but we also require that parents abstain from otherwise legal things once the child is born and in the home. A parent can live in a dump if they want, but when they have a child, the situation changes. I'm sorry that nature requires that women bear the brunt of that physical responsibility, but I certainly am not opposed to society and the government requiring far more responsibility from men than it currently does.
As for the rest of what you've said above, I think I've covered it, so I will move on.
again, you are deciding for the child, that the child is better off dead than alive. You are playing God.
I'm not playing God. No one is playing God. We are talking about an unborn person who requires living inside your body in order to stay alive. There are a lot of things a pregnant woman can do to her body to screw up and potentially kill the baby inside her. How is that playing God?
I think he's talking about consciously damaging or killing the baby, which to me does seem like playing God.
Until we do, I think it preferable that the fetus remain inside the mother until born.And if the mother doesn't want it there? Tough?
As a parent, there are days where I swear I don't want my kids. Ask any parent, and there are times where they feel so stressed they wish they had no kids. Yes, the answer to them is "Tough." Mind you, I love my kids and would not trade them for anything, but even if I truly did not want them, there are legal processes to ensure they be raised by someone who does want them. Such is the case for mothers of unwanted children. And often, when those mothers get a glimpse of their children for the first time on an ultrasound, their perspective changes drastically. Why not give them the opportunity to at least determine if they really want the child instead of "protecting women's rights" by pressuring her to make an uninformed decision. I hate the arguments against even that much.
twister111 said:
However if a woman doesn't want a kid for various reasons why force her to go through all that? Yes a life will be lost, but shouldn't she have the right to self defence?
a fetus taking nutrients isn't what I'd call an attack needing to be defended from.
This is typically the problem with the abortion debate. It is usually carried out by guys who are quick to brush it off and make comments like the above. Try being pregnant then making the same claim that it isn't an attack. Pregnancy can be extremely uncomfortable, and can do a lot to harm the mother's health.
If a mother wants to be protected from pregnancy, in the majority of cases I have a fool-proof plan: abstinence. Oh, wait. Life's about fun. Life's about pleasure. Life's not about responsibility.
C'mon, even pure naturalists know that sex's primary purpose is not so little kids can have fun on prom night; it's for reproduction. Forgive me for not enabling responsibility with choices.
twister111 said:
All that said yes I realize a kid can be a wonderful, wondrous, and inspiring bit of joy to enter someone's life. I just recognize that the situation isn't completely black and white. There are too many variables to every situation to conclusively say "Yes you must keep the kid alive, because we say so!"
I wouldn't put it "because we say so!" I would put it: " you must keep the kid alive cause murder is wrong."
And it is murder because we say so.
The word "murder" is properly used in reference to an unlawful killing, not just any killing in general.
Well, that's true! And it's convenient. I guess that means Hitler didn't murder Jews, homosexuals, Poles, Jehovah's Witnesses, or POWs. It was legal, after all. Copy and paste your favorite dictator and those groups legally killed under their direction.
theprequelsrule said:
I feel that the opposition to abortion, from the ancient world to today, is based on keeping women under control of men.
I don't wish to be rude but that is bs. I have no desire to "keep women under the control men".
You sure about that? Again, when you make your pro-life statements, make sure you take into consideration the fact that you are opposing the right to a choice you'll never have to make by any kind of stretch of the imagination. You're opposing the right of other people to a choice you'll never be faced with.
That is a pretty low blow. For what reason does my wife oppose abortion? Is it because our society, my church, or her domineering husband have brainwashed her into opposing this practice. She's had a cesarean. She's gained weight. She has stretch marks and varicose veins. It was uncomfortable and painful to her. But remarkably, she abhors the practice. You, as a male, have no more or less of a right to favor abortion than Warbler or I have to oppose it. You will never be in their shoes either, and thus don't truly know the pain or inconvenience of childbirth. Heck, I suspect I at least have a better glimpse than you do, considering I was there when my sons and daughter were born and helped care for my wife as she recovered. Don't you accuse anyone of sexism when they simply value human life even above a woman's health.
asterisk8 said:
Warbler said:
They believe you become a human when born, therefore to them the fetus is not human life.
That is not true at all. I don't know, and have never read about, anyone who believes that a fetus is not human until born. Most pro-choice advocates would agree that a fetus can be considered human when the cerebral cortex begins processing information like sounds and sensations outside the womb, which is around 5 months. That happens to fall in line with the 1992 Supreme Court case Planned Parenthood v. Casey, which set the upper limit for legal abortions in the US at 22 weeks, the point at which a fetus is viable outside the womb.
I would not listen to anyone who tries to argue that a 38-week-old fetus is not human. That's just nonsense.
It's not just nonsense, as many abortions have been performed past that legal limit with no legal action pursued. Can't think of that doctor who was murdered two or three years back. I would certainly never advocate murdering him, but I would certainly think that he should have gotten in trouble for the numerous post-22 week abortions he performed.
Nevertheless, this timeframe is still too arbitrary to me. Again, refer to the scenario I brought up before. Lets say we have a man in a coma. We know he will recover fully within 9 months. We see little brain activity in our MRIs and CT scans. We know he will feel no pain if we simply inject a lethal drug into his IV. His medical bills are destroying the lives of his family members. Can we kill him? According to the general arguments of personhood, for the duration of his coma, or at least until greater brain activity returns, he is not a person. Can we kill someone who is temporarily not a person? Heck, he may even awake to an extremely disappointing life, paralyzed, neglected or abused in a long-term facility. Should we spare him "a fate worse than death"?
DuracellEnergizer said:
I used to be a firm anti-abortionist. In my POV abortion was to be avoided at all costs unless there was absolute 100% certainty that neither mother nor child would be able to survive pregnancy.
After I began to doubt my religious convictions my views began to grow progressively more liberal, until I finally lost all faith in my religion and did a complete 180.
These days I consider myself a firm antinatalist.
So if I am to understand you correctly, you are completely opposed to birth, and thus favor human extinction? I know you've got a bizarre sense of humor, so I'm going to assume you're kidding with your last sentence.
none said:
Scientists need to figure out womb implants so men can carry babies. With womb implants the conversion of body fat to fetus nutrients could make it a weight loss option, like the stomach band. While increasing the dead beat parenting, to include a third surrogate. Yeah sure, human body fat would probably not be sufficient for normal growth, but that's not the concern. Stuffing the box with procreation offspring is the grand plan to aspire too, the hamsters might be the best at this, but human beings should be forced to do the same. It's the best way to make Solent Green a reachable goal, so we can take the stomach fat fed babies and grind them back up to be re-eatten. It'll take some time to work out the kinks of this perpetual energy machine, but gosh darn it with some talented minds, a reality can be this will!
Um, thank you for participating...
theprequelsrule said:
There is only one question that should be asked when it comes to abortion: should a woman have the final say over the fate of something inside her?
I feel that the opposition to abortion, from the ancient world to today, is based on keeping women under control of men. And I am a semi-misogynistic male myself, so I don't usually take the Feminist perspective. I think if you agree with modern Western values, then you must automatically grant women the right to decide if the child they carry lives or dies.
I'm not saying we should throw a party when an abortion is performed or anything.
It is one of those funny issues right? Liberals and conservatives are often on the side of the issue opposite to what you would expect. Conservatives should want the decision to remain with the family, while liberals would be more likely for the government to interfere to "protect" the child.
Let me ask you the same question with a minor change. Should a prenatal woman have the final say over the fate of something inside her? Yes, remember, more than half of the world's aborted children are female, future women. If we're pro-choice, what happened to their choice? Think I'm not for women's rights? I'm certainly for a woman's right to live, just as I am for a man's choice to live. As Warbler stated and I heartily agree, if God (or nature for you non-believers) had given me and my sex the responsibility of carrying a child for 9 months, I would be equally pro-life, if not more so.
Modern Western values are more charitable towards human life than virtually any other society, past or present. How casually have humans been killed in the past, or how casually are they killed in many other cultures today (think Middle East terrorism, Chinese daughter drowning, etc.) Don't for a moment claim that Western values demand abortion. The only Western value that comes close to doing so is our tendency to avoid responsibility for our actions. I was ill prepared to raise a child when I first found out my wife was pregnant, let alone the twins it turned out we were having. But I learned to man up and be a dad. Perhaps if we better instilled this value in our society today, there would be no more excuse for wanting to abort a person.
twister111 said:
darth_ender said:
By the unanimous vote of all twister111s here, I am starting a thread devoted to the debate of abortion.
Anyway coincidently I was thinking about the walking dead's Pro-life message during it's zombie apocalypse premise a few days ago. It really got me thinking about the subject of abortion as weird as that is...
So I thought about the whole side of the debate of "a fetus is undoubtedly a person from the point of conception". Well then lets look at that from that perspective completely. Yes it being a person affords the right to live. Though the right to live comes with certain consequences to your actions. A starving person doesn't usually get away with stealing food. In spite of plenty of people treating their pants as food theft 'r us. Still without eating a person will die. Then what right does another individual have to force another to eat foods they don't normally eat, force bodily changes, cause them to throw up, force them to carry them around for 9 months, and kick the inside of their body? Essentially stealing nutrients from her to live. Now if it's that woman's choice to let those things happen then hey congrats! New life! Yay people are happy!
However if a woman doesn't want a kid for various reasons why force her to go through all that? Yes a life will be lost, but shouldn't she have the right to self defence? What I mean about that "self defence" point is that in a way that's what abortion is. It's protection from the injuries incurred during childbirth, the bodily changes, the weight gain, getting sick. The quality of health for that person is a lot better aborting early. Hypothetically you hear a story on the news where a Woman had to get 20 stitches, or another story with a huge cut across her abdomen. Then you hear that she could've avoided such injury. It's hard not to instantly jump to the thought of "well why didn't you stop that?!" Isn't it? Even though you know I'm talking about a baby being born.
All that said yes I realize a kid can be a wonderful, wondrous, and inspiring bit of joy to enter someone's life. I just recognize that the situation isn't completely black and white. There are too many variables to every situation to conclusively say "Yes you must keep the kid alive, because we say so!" I've only scratched the surface here. There's also the quality of life for the child after it's born, coming into the world unwanted already, and hell I could write an entire book on all the different variables for deciding to abort.
Finally, I do feel that there are some situations where it's distasteful to abort. Mostly when the kid is close to being born. Got a 9 month alert window and you decide to wait until it's close to being fully formed to want an abortion??? What??? At that point just procrastinate for a little while longer, give birth, give the baby up for adoption.
Consequences to your actions? Whose actions? I think the only people who made a choice here are the parents who had sexual intercourse. Who is so stupid that they don't know that sex leads to babies? Mom and Dad made the choice, not the child. Don't you think that they should be the ones to face consequences for their actions?
See my comparison to the invalids who contribute little and consume much when you think of your stealing food analogy. Life is full of extremely inconvenient situations and people. If the easiest way to eliminate that inconvenience is to take a human life, that still doesn't make it right. Think of a woman in an abusive relationship. This man threatens to stalk her and hunt her down wherever she goes. The easiest course of action may be to simply shoot him while he sleeps. That's self-defense, right? I think you know that is wrong. How could it be wrong to kill an evil man who makes evil choices, yet perfectly acceptable to kill an innocent child who has made no choices but is rather the product of someone else's irresponsible choices?
I of all people am stuck in grey land. I better than most, I feel, know that life is not black and white. Read through the politics thread from page 406 on and you will get a taste of my pragmatic personality. I see ideals, and I see reality, and I conclude that in our present state of humanity, we cannot simply stick to our perfect world hopes at all times. But when it comes to abortion, I see very, very little grey. You are taking an innocent person's life. I've mentioned my grey area, and even there I think that much consideration should be given before performing an abortion.
CP3S said:
darth_ender said:
How can we protect the lives of endangered animals and plants, yet treat unborn human life as trivial because we are not endangered? I'll never understand it. But you're welcome to try to make me. I'm ready to be outnumbered, but I assure you I am will not cop out on this topic.
Because we are selfish, and they take a lot of work and get in our way, and each one of them is pretty close to a 20 year investment.
Children are an investment. They are inconvenient. No excuse.
I recently performed my nursing clinicals at a rest home. There were several individuals of advancing age and health. Many were experiencing some degree of dementia. They all contributed nothing to society. They no longer have any reproductive ability to carry on the species. They suck resources from tax payers and possibly their families. They add unnecessary stress to their family's lives. They are living reservoirs of disease that can easily be transmitted to their care providers. Economically speaking, our country would be better off if they were simply euthanized. Healthwise, we would be far freer of disease if the pathogens' greatest ongoing source of sustenance were destroyed and incinerated. For the health of their family, think of the reduced stress, their own lack of exposure to these elderly creatures' diseases, the times when they have to care for them in the home themselves and are exhausted from being the caregiver. Why don't we just give every family member the option to terminate the person's life? Because we are talking about people. The thing that separates us from the animals, whether you are religious or not, is that we have the capacity and the desire to save each others' lives, and equally are morally obliged to do so.
Would you pull the plug on a comatose patient, especially one you knew would ultimately revive?
Would you end the life of a 2 week-old child, who may be outside the mother's body, is hardly less damaging to physical and emotional health?
Would you put down a child who is mentally retarded and will never have an IQ greater than that of a 3 year old? That can represent an even greater investment than 20 years, he/she will get even more in the way and take even more work. I'm happy to say, by the way, that my 33 year-old brother with Down's syndrome (not normally so handicapping, but his mentality is truly about that of a 3 year-old) is still being cared for by my parents, and he may not be looked at as much of investment as he provides little tangible return.
This response is not just to you, but to all. Many people are a long-term investment, and many of them provide little more back than love. But human life is sacred, and as long as I claim to be human, I see it my duty to protect the life of all other humans.
There are fates worse than death, to use a cliche. The developmental childhood years are extremely pivotal in an individual's life. You screw those up, you screw up the person. At this point we have layers upon layers of screwed up people in this country, prepared to make layers and layers of more screwed up people. If some of these people chose to "opt out" of at least one of their contributions to the screwed up masses...
I've seen some kids in some really heartwrenchingly awful situations thank to parents who were never fit to be parents. There are so many situations like this we can't even track or contain them all. If they are willing to undo what their irresponsible behavior created, by all means, let them spare that poor child from that fate.
Would you rather millions more children be born to parents who didn't really want them in the first place and who are not willing to make the sacrifices it takes to be even the lousiest of parents?
I think the option for adoption raised by Warbler is a perfectly good one. The government does its best to assure the child goes to a healthy family, and for a guy who is involved in social work, I've seen just how much effort goes into this. CPS is legally obliged (at least here in AZ) to provide a huge amount of services and resources and chances for a removed child to return to his/her parent(s). Meanwhile, the foster parents and other potential adoptive homes are required to be far more perfect and stable to even have a chance. Many people who would care well for children are unable to have them.
What's worse about this argument is that you wish to spare someone who has no choice as to how they ended up in his/her shoes a fate worse than death? Oh no, my friend. Could you honestly look at that child once born, knowing it was going to go to an abusive home, and therefore give it a lethal dose of medication? You have no right, no right to end that life, regardless of the circumstances. If anything, you are morally obliged to preserve that life to the best of your ability and seek a means of altering that child's fate.
I am not one for big government, but in response to your last question, I'd rather have the government more willing to remove children from lousy homes and less willing to return them. I've seen how damaging our current laws are. I have a front row seat in my job.
I wish I could have kept up on this thread yesterday, as I knew I'd have several replies to make when I got here. It's nice to have Warbler on my side, considering our often opposing viewpoints. On the other hand, it's interesting to see pro-guns C3PSin the opposite camp. I know no one likes several consecutive replies, but it's easiest for me, so cue the descending sunglasses.
^What I came here to say. Some minor CGI adjustments like the Revisited project would probably do the trick (ie mouth movement, stabilizing the more floppy movements, and minor touch ups like that).
By the unanimous vote of all twister111s here, I am starting a thread devoted to the debate of abortion.
Those who know my style know I'm generally fairly middle ground and am good at seeing others' perspectives and trying to be accommodating. You will find no such middle ground here. I feel abortion should only be permitted when the mother's health is severely at risk, be it physical or mental, meaning following rape/incest. Even then, I feel it should not be a default decision, but rather a well-thought one. I will never understanding how someone can feel so passionately about women's rights that they feel justified in removing the right to life of another human. Even if I did not believe in God, I could never support this practice. How can we protect the lives of endangered animals and plants, yet treat unborn human life as trivial because we are not endangered? I'll never understand it. But you're welcome to try to make me. I'm ready to be outnumbered, but I assure you I am will not cop out on this topic.
Well, for me the candy is rather meaningless. I feel that this thread misses what I was trying to get at and will continue to do so with the various thoughts running through it and the name of the thread itself. Perhaps a thread on abortion would better suit your purpose.
