darth_ender

I think it does.  I know it's easy to offend over the Internet, as I've unintentionally offended and been offended many times.  I didn't originally think I'd have to take on script-fixing, but I realized that with so many different ideas, someone had to at least hammer out a basic outline.  That's when I decided to change the script myself.  I figure once we have a good basic idea, we can then debate the extra things with greater direction and productivity.  For instance, if we decide to do a story that could not possibly have any part take place on Coruscant, then we no longer need to debate Coruscant storylines.  But if we determine that it can be done and would in fact improve the story, then we can go from there.  I'm really just trying to get some basic direction.  Again, I'm sorry I originally offended you.

Seriously, I meant no offense though I was pretty sure I might come off that way.  I am referring to things such as Boba Fett's death which I simply don't see as possible, at least at the present.  Perhaps, as we move further along, such things could be integrated.  Also, I was trying to make clear that our visions will differ greatly and that hopefully we can come to common goal and go from there.  Then, if people wanted, we could take our finished product as use it as a base for further and more radical editing.  If you found a way to include things like Boba's flamethrower and death and such, then that would be great as a next step.  I'm not trying to push anyone around, but I'm simply trying to suggest that we keep this somewhat simpler for now.  When I said "overreaching" I did not mean getting out of line.  I meant you were trying to reach for a more complex idea than I think is currently possible, or at least is currently wise.

I briefly did look at your space battle edit, but I was at work and could not take a lengthy look.  I promise I will watch it when I can and perhaps use some of your ideas.

I don't want to be the boss here.  But I volunteered to do the script, and when it's done, I want suggestions on further changes.  My comments were meant to direct your energy to continued creative thinking, but keep it a bit more grounded, and then when I put out my version of the script, we can start adding other ideas.  Believe me, I'm leaving plenty open for others' input.

Ronster, I personally feel that your ideas are interesting, but I think you may be overreaching at this point.  I feel we should start with a more grounded edit first, stick largely faithful to the original story, and as was pointed out before, we have easily accessible building blocks for future edits.  I think ROTJ has many good elements already existing, and that some minor alterations could go a long way to drastically improve the story.  Many of your ideas can be used, but I hope I don't offend you when I say that currently I'm thinking of more basic changes.

That said, I have some good news.  Though more elaborate, I already had a good idea of how I want the final act of the story to move, but was stuck on the first act.  It's really far less complex, but I was having some writer's block as how we should provide the opening crawl and several scenes.  I had some great ideas that I think could start the movie slightly slower, but then provide fewer moments of slow exposition towards the middle, moving the plot faster overall.  I intend to post the first portion of the script today with some commentary on why I changed certain things, plus a few minor special effects and musical suggestions.

Speaking of those sorts of things, while I intend to make suggestions, I don't want to include everything in the script.  I want to leave that to our CGI wizards and suggest that they refer to the wishlist for most ideas.  While I do include a few because I feel strongly about them and no other reason, most I include simply because they may be essential for plot changes.

I'll try to get that first part of the script up today :)

I agree Warb and Alexrd.  And I too fail to see how such a risk should not be taken seriously into account when anyone, even a loving, stable couple with enough kids already.  If someone thinks that they can't possible handle another child responsibly, they should choose celibacy over killing.  What's more important, your sex life or your child's life?

^This is why I feel the script needs additional ships to be involved in the attack.  I think if several capital ships engage in the battle, focusing their fire on the bridge section, then two fighters being the straws that broke the camel's back might be more believable.  Perhaps if it were made clearer that they were firing concussion missiles rather than simple laser blasts (what it looks like to me), then it might also come off better.

I agree about the lost Rebel footage and I'm going to try to include as much as possible, probably having to do some rough cuts with my Windows Live Movie Maker software as a template for those with the better toys.

I'm personally not a big fan of Coruscant being a significant plot point, both because of what I perceive as unrealistic (let's blow up the capital to stop the riots) and also it just doesn't seem to make sense story-wise.  It just seems like people are fishing for something more exotic.  If Endor orbits Coruscant and it is essentially background, that would be visually interesting, but I can't see a logical story reason to include it without some drastic rewriting of the whole movie.

I know I'm a nerd, but I didn't know what song was Across the Stars till tonight when I finally looked it up.  It's a pretty piece and would be neat to include somewhere, though the only place that seems truly fitting might be where Luke and Leia are talking about their mother.

A song I feel we might want to consider weaving into this movie somewhere might be the Death Star theme from A New Hope.  It essentially served as the bad guy song for the first movie, and I personally find it powerful and intimidating.  Perhaps some dramatic Death Star II reveal could include this piece.

Sorry to take so long on this early step folks.  I'll get it done soon.

Aalenfae, I know that was just a mockup, but it's an excellent start!  I'd love to see Mon Cal ships broadsiding the Executor and taking a great deal of punishment as well, including Home One.  This is partly why I want to see if I can reintegrate some dubbed Madine shots.  We could see multiple ships engaging the Executor.  I wish we could see more Madine in action, including this shot:

This is probably too difficult a task, but is there any way to show some of the motion from the revealed deleted scenes, and then turn it into something like this?  What I guess I mean is, can the existing footage be altered to show his face go from ordinary to excited while the Executor or Death Star blows up outside his window and lights the whole bridge?  This shot could be used as some sort of basis, but I don't know if this is too ambitious an idea.

I will try to have my script done in the next few days.  I know it might not seem like a lot of work changing an already existing script around, but I don't have a whole lot of free time, even with school out.  When I get it done you can see what my current structure will be.  As I said, it's only a draft anyway, so we can then debate more significant structural changes then.  At this point I'm honestly working largely on existing footage, be it the official film or deleted scenes.  I haven't really thought of adding too many entirely new things just yet, such as Coruscant, or even the commandos in action I keep talking about.  We'll get there soon.

Aalenfae, I would love to see any and all ROTJ mockups, as they could give my script some more direction during these vague points we've suggested.  I'm very excited to see them.

Thanks as always for comments and replies.  Angel, I'm still not sure I'll use the scene, but given that you say compositing a different background shouldn't be that hard, and now that I've actually watched the Dagobah scene as opposed to going by memory, it could actually be a conceivable change.  Luke's lightsaber it turns out is never actually visible on Dagobah.  Guess I should have watched it before I wrote :)

So while I'm touching up the sequence of scenes for the beginning, my thoughts are turning again to the Battle of Endor, focusing more on the space battle.  It would nice to see more Mon Calamari cruisers, and I'm thinking in particular that they should be more engaged in the destruction of the Executor.  As of this moment, I believe that the most heavy work in this edit would be the needed CGI vessels engaged in battle, and I hope either of you feels you could do it.  I found (actually re-found) a website that would be useful in showing more Mon Cal ships, as it has great photos of the various models (and illustrations from other sources as well, but they're not as important unless you wanted to include them).

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/mcc.html

I also am thinking about trying to reincorporate some of Madine's scenes.  Many of his lines are the same as Ackbar's leading me to believe they probably were debating who would actually lead the battle.  But if some shots of him could be included along with another Mon Cal crusier, we might be able to make a more interesting capital ship battle.

To Aalenfae and Angel: how difficult would it be to change the background during the lightsaber construction scene?  What I'm thinking is compositing Luke into a Dagobah-like setting.  This would fit in right after Obi-Wan's conversation with him: "Bury your feelings deep down, Luke.  They do you credit, but they could be made to serve the Emperor."  Cut to Vader in meditation chamber reaching out to Luke, then back to Luke in black robe constructing saber, but still on Dagobah.  Here he could be preparing for the duel Ben just told him about and brooding in his thoughts as well.  I'm not sure I would still keep this, but it seems like it might be an interesting way to keep the deleted scene.  Also, how hard would it be to remove his lightsaber from the preceding Dagobah scenes then?

I hope my suggestion of keeping things closer to the original didn't turn anyone away.  I still hope we can keep a good energy for this.  My editing of the script is underway.  I imagine the biggest changes will be in the beginning and end.  When this is done (or perhaps when segments are done), I will post my progress which you guys can read and then provide suggestions.  I am being fairly conservative thus far in my edit, as I don't feel the plot needs as much work as others feel.  The biggest changes needed would be in the execution of certain scenes and plot points rather than the overall story.  However, as I said I'm open to ideas.  Posting your ideas here is a good way to keep the creative juices flowing, but when I submit a copy of the script for your consideration, I suggest you again provide any ideas you've already supplied with justification.

Spence edit has some good ideas, though it's not perfect IMHO.  Also the wishlist has great ideas.  Also getting ideas from the novel.  I think I can make this plot more intense with mostly what we already have at our disposal.

Is there anyone, by the way, who feels they have the skill to improve the quality of the deleted scenes?  If we could lock such a person in place, we may already have enough skill among existing volunteers to pull this thing off :)

Sex is a wonderful thing, but the fact of the matter is that sex's primary purpose is to perpetuate the species.  Whether you believe in God or not, it's quite apparent that the pleasures and emotions associated with sex are a big bonus, or even an incentive, but they are not the end goal.

I admit I had seen this before.  When I first found it, though, I found myself laughing so hard I was crying and I rewatched it several times.  I mean it when I say this is one of my favorite youtube movies.  Best part is when he talks to Leia.  It kills me!

So I was thinking about the stronger Vader, and while I like to see his cowering before his more powerful master, I think it'd still be nice to see him pushing around his underlings, and thought maybe I would include the Vader choking Jerjerrod scene.  However, I'm not certain, as I understand the reasoning for cutting it (I believe I read that the Vader choke had been overused).  What do you guys think?

Sounds good.  I just want it to be clear that I am not trying to hijack this whole idea.  I just figured someone needs to get the ball rolling, but I believe we need to all share in the fun and the glory.

I am reading lots of interesting and unique ideas.  Let me here offer a suggestion for our consideration before we venture too far into a story that would be too difficult for even the best editors here to pull off with what we have available: what are the problems with ROTJ?  I'll make a list of what I've heard:

1) DSII--recycled idea
2) Ewoks--too cute, and their victory too unrealistic
3) Story--moves too slowly, lack of tension
4) Vader--too weak
5) Boba Fett--too cool to go that way
6) Jabba's Palace--too many cheesey puppets
7) Costumes--lower quality, too many reused

I'm sure there are more, but these are what come to mind immediately.  These are my thoughts regarding these flaws:

1) DSII--cliched, but there are differences, such as an attempted pre-emptive strike.  Sure there's already been a Death Star, but part of the difficulty with writing a sequel is the need to outdo previous stories without losing the story and internal reality created.
2) Ewoks--my rough cut addresses the unrealistic victory to some extent, and I believe that a little sound editing and short cuts could remove much of the cuteness and could even give them more of an aggressive edge.
3) Good editing can hopefully move the pace of the story along better, and I hope to show another rough cut of the Battle of Endor soon that could also allow for a much more tense climax when fully realized with high quality effects.
4) Vader--I personally am not sure I want him to appear stronger.  I'm interested in a more aggressive Vader as Mithrandir mentioned, but I believe I would prefer to keep his acquiescence to the Emperor in place.  It fulfills the emotional aspect of the story and is needed for the payoff in the end, IMO.
5) Boba Fett--I have been pondering all day how to keep him alive and have him later go down.  At first I thought about getting him on Endor and dying in a fast-draw with Han (I think this would be the ideal subplot--a personal faceoff), but I don't see a realistic way of pulling this off.  I then thought about keeping him in Slave I and having Lando and the Falcon take him down.  This is probably more feasible from a technical standpoint, but it would still be a difficult thing to pull off, and ultimately would be a story let down anyway since Lando's beef with Fett would not nearly be so strong.  So as 005 mentioned, it's probably best to simply remove him.
6) I would have no problem if we never saw Max Rebo's band (sorry mrebo, if you read this thread).  Even when I was a child and scared to death of Jabba, I thought the band looked very fake, like stuffed animals I'd keep in my bed.
7) Costumes--It'd be difficult to do much about the costumes, but I have to be honest that I would never have even noticed had it not been for the immensely keen eyes of OT.com members.  If most stayed the same, I'd have no problem.

My point to all this is that there are various lengths we could go to change this story, and many of them could be potentially interesting.  However, I suggest that we keep the story somewhat true to the original for several reasons: it would be easiest, as this is a new idea, and we want many of our efforts to be available to others with their edits, and if we change too much, there would be little left; we don't have the actors, models, costumes, funds, or crew at our disposal to pull off a complete rewrite; the original story is honestly not that bad in my opinion; much can be done to strengthen and streamline the existing story.

I hope my suggestions never come off as rude or domineering, as I certainly am not trying to be the leader of this discussion.  However, I feel that we should focus on what exists and simply improve upon it rather that remake it.

EDIT: As a PS, would anyone be opposed to me actually taking on the responsibility of script writing?  I'm always open to ideas and would share my scripte regularly.  Really I just plan on downloading a copy of the shooting script and making alterations.  As you guys read it, you could continue to make suggestions.  This is probably one of the very first steps we need to take to get this project off the ground, and from there we could probably get a better idea of how to incorporate our various thoughts and different visions.

Oh, well, it was a fun thought :)

Based on our discussion in the PT/OT integration thread, I had a thought that I'm not sure we should use, but I think it's worth discussing.  Should Vader be a stronger character?  He certainly appears stronger in ESB, but when facing his master, he is a little weakling.  Now I see the purpose of this, as we're now trying to have a sympathetic character that in a sense is an addict.  We see his weak side and believe that because of it, he can never change.  This to me really builds up the emotion for a non-verbal turning on his master and hurling him down that shaft.  I really feel how difficult that choice must have been for him, but his love for his son conquers all the evil in his past (remember, I really like ROTJ).

However, given that we see a stronger Vader in ESB, and given that weakness takes away from his coolness, should we somehow make him appear a bit stronger?  Should his humility before the Emperor be a false humility, with that lingering thought of betrayal in the back of his mind?  Would this decrease the emotion of his choice in the end?  Would it preserve his coolness?

We're still early in this thread, but soon I think I'm going to have to start linking to various ideas in the first post.  This is going to be time-ocnsuming to keep up with.

I don't see a need for it to be an ancient code per se (though the thought of ancient precedent is interesting to me.  Rather, anyone who knows the Sith understand their nature and understands that they will turn on each other at the drop of a hat.  To me, that does create tension.  Vader cowers before his master, but knows that if he can gain Luke, the he can overthrow the Emperor while Vader controls him.  I agree with what timdiggerm said.  They both know what is in each other's hearts (though never made explicit in Ep III, in the novelization it is affirmed that Darth Plagus was indeed Palpatine's master that he murdered after obtaining his knowledge).  They know that one will successfully stab the other in the back, though they don't know who will succeed.  Meanwhile, they simultaneously are aware of the need to preserve Sith teachings, meaning they have to keep each other alive till they can find a suitable apprentice.  To me it is tension and it is interesting.

It's a good thing we're not doing a collaborative PT edit, because I have a feeling it would be extremely hard to come to any sort of story consensus :)

Then again, if timdiggerm's suggestion of creating resources for all fans to use were to be followed, perhaps more people could successfully finish their own edits.  Anyway, that's a topic for when we're done with ROTJ.

I remember somebody (maybe it was you) suggested a scene showing the Rebel Bothans stealing the Death Star details as a first scene.  Do you think that would work before Luke on Dagobah?  It seems reasonable to me, but it obviously would take some filming and would be far more complex than other real actor filming I've suggested (characters dying and such).  How might this theme be reintroduced later to keep the plot moving, as you've mentioned before?  Or do you have another idea?  Anyone else have any ideas?  Should it simply be given more attention in the opening crawl without being shown on screen?

Thanks for the great ideas and willingness to participate, guys.  I'm very excited and I've updated the first post!  I can't even remember which tune is called "Across the Stars."  It's early and my daughter and I are the only one's awake, but I will listen to it later and give my opinion on the matter.

Remember that debating ideas is the best way to sharpen our ideas, so the ultimate product may or may not include something you hold dear.  That may be hard, but please no one take offense over divergent opinions, and remember you can always edit it your way later using our group project as a base.  I always want to hear everyone's ideas, even if they've been turned down by the majority before.  I'm sure everyone else wants to hear any contribution you have.

I think we may be at a point where we can hammer our a solid story, and from there we can begin storyboarding significant changes that would ultimately require the assistance of our two special effects wizards :)  Again, thanks all those who have begun showing interest.  I'm really stoked about this project!

Yeah, it was just a silly thought.  I wanted to reiterate that I do like the Rule of Two with the Sith.  It's probably one of the best ideas to come out of the PT, I think.  Watching Vader talk about "rul[ing] the galaxy as father and son," and the Emperor saying, "Take your father's place at my side," it increases the tension and treachery between both characters.  I find the Siths' efforts at passing on their way of life while simultaneously backstabbing each other an interesting dichotomy.

^Yeah, your last thought is probably best.

darth_ender said:

 If I believe that the end result will save more innocent lives in the long run, I feel that the ends may unfortunately justify the means [though not originally tied to your concerns Frink, this worldview justifies abortion in the above mentioned rare cases to me].

 

That sounds pretty cool.  I have several cards from the old CCG which no one plays and no one buys.  I hope this one is successful.  It looks like it has promise.

darth_ender said:

By the unanimous vote of all twister111s here, I am starting a thread devoted to the debate of abortion.

Those who know my style know I'm generally fairly middle ground and am good at seeing others' perspectives and trying to be accommodating.  You will find no such middle ground here.  I feel abortion should only be permitted when the mother's health is severely at risk, be it physical or mental, meaning [including] following rape/incest.  Even then, I feel it should not be a default decision, but rather a well-thought one.  I will never understanding how someone can feel so passionately about women's rights that they feel justified in removing the right to life of another human.  Even if I did not believe in God, I could never support this practice.  How can we protect the lives of endangered animals and plants, yet treat unborn human life as trivial because we are not endangered?  I'll never understand it.  But you're welcome to try to make me.  I'm ready to be outnumbered, but I assure you I am will not cop out on this topic.