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terror in london — Page 5

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Originally posted by: Nanner Split
It's also been said that NASA has a satellite in space that can cause earthquakes in order to kill the president.


That was from "Conspiracy Theory", for all you movie newbies out there.

http://i.imgur.com/7N84TM8.jpg

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its also similar to the idea in The Core
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Never saw it, I thought it looked retarded.

And speaking of movies I haven't seen, I am still the only person I know who hasn't seen "Titanic" (and refuse to).

Anyway, back to our subject of international terrorism....

http://i.imgur.com/7N84TM8.jpg

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Something very rare is happening here - a civil, balanced and constructive discussion of the terrorist situation with people eloquently expressing both sides of the argument.

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Originally posted by: Warbler
Somehow I just do think any of that will get rid of Bin Laden. For one thing, we no idea where he is, so how can we impose sactions on a country if we don't know what country he and other terrorist are in?

Would everyone stop going on about Bin Laden? You're talking as if getting rid of him would solve the problem. I doubt the London bombers are even connected to Bin Laden. He is just a famous name - these extremists are now taking his example and doing their own thing, just like modern day Nazis weren't even born when Hitler was around. This thing has become a cancer that has spread beyond the root cause. There is no leader, no one man to take out. The only thing that would happen if Bin Laden was caught or killed would be even more attacks to avenge him.

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Originally posted by: Shimraa
its been said by credible sources. but hasnt been reported in any of the mainstream media. the rumor was that he was killed over a year ago in afganistain, and the us is using him as a political puppet now, to push bills like the patriot act through.

I'm not saying i believe it, but it is an interestin rumor

This actually sounds highly believable IMO.


So, now for the news update from your man in the field - me. Yesterday the police cordoned off a road to inverstigate an abandoned car that they believe was used by one of the would-be bombers in thursady's failed attacks. The car was literally 2 minutes from my flat! Talk about close to home!



War does not make one great.

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Regarding the whole sanctions creating terrorism things, let me ask you something: why do you think US is aimed by terrorist groups? Why do they declare this pseudo-jihad against this country? What is the difference between US and UK and, let's say, Japan, or Brazil, or Canada, or Germany? What has generated this hate?

When I speak of imposing sanctions and political/economical barriers between countries who tend to go in the wrong way, I don't mean a militaristic, arrogant one-sided intervention. I don't mean a coup. I mean a UN based movement, based on international laws. Does anyone here remember Slobodan Milosevic's case? Do you see how North Korea's case is being treated? Also, why hasn't the US or UK interfered on Idi Amin Dada back in the 70s? Think about it.

I wouldn't think China is a problem, as I feel they are slowly moving into a democracy, pressured by the chinese and international market. I would be sure they slowly move into a peaceful resolution for organizing free elections, even if indirect ones at first. I wouldn't worry about Hugo Chavez as well, he has little to no international influence and is only slowly moving his country back to the 1800s. I say let him rule his way down, should be fun to watch. Brazil's gonna help Venezuela when he is overthrown (which should happen in a few years).
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Originally posted by: ricarleite
Regarding the whole sanctions creating terrorism things, let me ask you something: why do you think US is aimed by terrorist groups? Why do they declare this pseudo-jihad against this country? What is the difference between US and UK and, let's say, Japan, or Brazil, or Canada, or Germany? What has generated this hate?


I'll be honest and say I don't know because, I don't know. I think it has to do with the fact that we are one of the most powerful nations on the planet. Terrorists get more out of attacking a powerful nation than a weak one. I also think its as Shim said, its because we impose sanctions, Brazil, Japan and Canada don't. I think its also cause they view us as a Christian stronghold. Most terrorists have extreme religious beliefs.

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Originally posted by: ricarleite


When I speak of imposing sanctions and political/economical barriers between countries who tend to go in the wrong way, I don't mean a militaristic, arrogant one-sided intervention. I don't mean a coup. I mean a UN based movement, based on international laws. Does anyone here remember Slobodan Milosevic's case? Do you see how North Korea's case is being treated? Also, why hasn't the US or UK interfered on Idi Amin Dada back in the 70s? Think about it.


Is what we did in Cuba a coop? no Did it work? no.

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Originally posted by: Yoda Is Your Father
Something very rare is happening here - a civil, balanced and constructive discussion of the terrorist situation with people eloquently expressing both sides of the argument.


Yes, it is nice to see.

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Originally posted by: Yoda Is Your Father
Would everyone stop going on about Bin Laden? You're talking as if getting rid of him would solve the problem. I doubt the London bombers are even connected to Bin Laden. He is just a famous name - these extremists are now taking his example and doing their own thing, just like modern day Nazis weren't even born when Hitler was around. This thing has become a cancer that has spread beyond the root cause. There is no leader, no one man to take out. The only thing that would happen if Bin Laden was caught or killed would be even more attacks to avenge him.


Sorry, but when I think of terrorists attacks I think of him. Yes stopping him wouldn't stop the terrorists attacksm but it would be a blow in the right direction. It is a figurehead for terrorists. He was the mastermind behind 911. For the war or terror to be successful, one of the things that has to happen is that Bin Laden must be stopped, and yes you're right, if he were caught or killed, in the short run, the terrorists attacks would increace.

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Originally posted by: Nanner Split
I think I'm gonna have to agree with Warbler on this issue. Work your magic, Warbler.


Sorry Nanner Split, but I have no magic.
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hahaha yes, and i should go on further ans say that the jihad isnt just towards the US it is to the western world, that is why you get attacks in london spain and the US. it is felt by many that Canada is next on the list. ts also though by many that the terrorist would enver hit canada cause we have the longest undefended boader in the world with the US. if canada was to be attacked NA would become a full on fortress.
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Warbler, you said above that when you think of terror attacks you think of Bin Laden - that is because his face and name is in every bloody newspaper and TV bulletin related to terrorists. He's a villain for the people to focus on. It's turning this whole thing into an over-simplified bad guy movie. And even you, who is clearly smart and aware that Bin Laden is not the be all and end all of this thing, still can't quite shake the concept even though you know it to be false, because it's thrown at you every day. A testiment to the power of the media.

War does not make one great.

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Since I don't wanna do all that copy and paste and editing 3 level quote tags I'll just put what Warbler said on generic quote tags.

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I'll be honest and say I don't know because, I don't know. I think it has to do with the fact that we are one of the most powerful nations on the planet. Terrorists get more out of attacking a powerful nation than a weak one. I also think its as Shim said, its because we impose sanctions, Brazil, Japan and Canada don't. I think its also cause they view us as a Christian stronghold. Most terrorists have extreme religious beliefs.


Now I might be wrong, but this is my view and the view of many others, the reason for US and UK being targets is related to their international actions. It might be a distorted, almost steriotyped view of things, yes, but the US is seen as a politically arrogant country, who has over the years staged coups d'estat (cant spell) and military/political interferences. It's seen as the evil country who will come to a war against anyone and kill anyone in order to protect their interests. In a way they have a point: Iran-contras, military coups in south america, in central america, Korea, Vietnan, the whole cold war thing, bombings in Iraq, Sudan, Afganstan... and the latest act of war agasint Iraq is seen as a arrogant move against the middle east itself, ont against Saddam. Of course this is a exagerated and distorted view, but it has some fundantions on facts. If america sees itself as the good side, they see themselves as the good side. It's VERY hard to explain this world view to someone in america or UK without offending them or making them think it's against their people and culture, it's not! It's the political point of view only.

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Is what we did in Cuba a coop? no Did it work? no.


Three words: bay of pigs. And it has been done in a lot of other places, some succeeded, some didn't.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Ric, I'm from England, and I hear and agrre with what you're saying, as do most british people. No offense taken. We don't have the patriotism of the USA over here (which is sad in some ways, because we have little to no national pride unless football is involved, but good too because nationalism is a bit dangerous in my opinion).

War does not make one great.

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well man united are awesome so liverpool people there is always fights about both teams
"A Jedi can feel the force flow through him".
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Originally posted by: Yoda Is Your Father
We don't have the patriotism of the USA over here (which is sad in some ways, because we have little to no national pride unless football is involved, but good too because nationalism is a bit dangerous in my opinion).


Same here, unless it envolved sports such as football or the olympics, or brazillians getting into harsh situations overseas (the one shot in UK, the one kidnapped in Iraq), we are actually the opposite of a patriotic country, we are very self deprecating. I am overly critic about this country and I hate it's politics and social problems as much as I make criticism about international politics - I just don't discuss it here as it would be inapropriated. But what I meant is that some people take my remarks about my political views as personal attacks, like I'm burning the flag or something. I must say I have nothing against US and UK as countries and its people, quite the opposite I enjoy the culture from both countries and I have nothing against the "cultural invasion" made by US (and to some extent UK and europe) over the world, I actually support it. I want to remind you all that although I am absolutely against every single decision made by both governments over the past 200 years and am absolutely disgussed by their political decisions and views, I have NOTHING against its people and the countries themselves... OK? I like you guys.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Brazil has the best teams. Ronaldo is the greatest
"A Jedi can feel the force flow through him".
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Originally posted by: Jedikev
Brazil has the best teams. Ronaldo is the greatest


* sigh * Ronaldo stopped playing serious football 8 years ago. He's just pathetic now.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Come on that's offensive.

that's like saying Pele is crap
"A Jedi can feel the force flow through him".
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greece has the best football team
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Originally posted by: Shimraa
greece has the best football team



err no they don't
"A Jedi can feel the force flow through him".
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Screw y'all. It's the Chicago Fire!!!!
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
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Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
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kapgar.com
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Originally posted by: Bossk
Screw y'all. It's the Chicago Fire!!!!


LOL!!!

Pele once played for the New York Cosmos you know... In the late 70s... And then that league went out of business

He was once invited to be the kicker of a football (not soccer) team, how weird is that.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Not very weird at all. I know of many subpro Am Football teams that recruit kickers from soccer teams. Both of my brothers in law were soccer studs who were recruited from their teams to be kickers on the school's football team. One of them is a multiple record holder for both his school and conference (and came close to breaking a state record).
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
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Originally posted by: Yoda Is Your Father
Warbler, you said above that when you think of terror attacks you think of Bin Laden - that is because his face and name is in every bloody newspaper and TV bulletin related to terrorists. He's a villain for the people to focus on. It's turning this whole thing into an over-simplified bad guy movie. And even you, who is clearly smart and aware that Bin Laden is not the be all and end all of this thing, still can't quite shake the concept even though you know it to be false, because it's thrown at you every day. A testiment to the power of the media.


The reason, I think of Bin Laden is not because of the media, is because whenever I think of terrorist attacks the first one I think of is 911(for obvious reasons), and Bin Laden was(and may still be) the leader of the group that did it.

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Originally posted by: ricarleite

Three words: bay of pigs. And it has been done in a lot of other places, some succeeded, some didn't.


You missed my point, we have had sanctions on Cuba for many yearsm and they haven't worked.

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Originally posted by: ricarleite
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Originally posted by: Jedikev
Brazil has the best teams. Ronaldo is the greatest


* sigh * Ronaldo stopped playing serious football 8 years ago. He's just pathetic now.


*sign* there guys go again, calling soccer, football.

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Originally posted by: ricarleite
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Originally posted by: Yoda Is Your Father
We don't have the patriotism of the USA over here (which is sad in some ways, because we have little to no national pride unless football is involved, but good too because nationalism is a bit dangerous in my opinion).


Same here, unless it envolved sports such as football or the olympics, or brazillians getting into harsh situations overseas (the one shot in UK, the one kidnapped in Iraq), we are actually the opposite of a patriotic country, we are very self deprecating. I am overly critic about this country and I hate it's politics and social problems as much as I make criticism about international politics - I just don't discuss it here as it would be inapropriated. But what I meant is that some people take my remarks about my political views as personal attacks, like I'm burning the flag or something. I must say I have nothing against US and UK as countries and its people, quite the opposite I enjoy the culture from both countries and I have nothing against the "cultural invasion" made by US (and to some extent UK and europe) over the world, I actually support it. I want to remind you all that although I am absolutely against every single decision made by both governments over the past 200 years and am absolutely disgussed by their political decisions and views, I have NOTHING against its people and the countries themselves... OK? I like you guys.


Sorry I Ric but do take statements personally like:

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Originally posted by: ricarleite
is this the price to pay for a pseudo oil fed "freedom"? Who are the terrorists? I say both sides.


and:

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Originally posted by: ricarleite
we are worse than them.


and this:

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Originally posted by: ricarleite
We are brain-washed by the government controlled media to work 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, eat fast food buy videogames watch TV and be happy,


sorry but I take them personally, partly I guess because there is some truth to them. Sorry but I take alot of pride in what my country stands for. You say it stands for oil and arrogance. I say it stands for freedom and democracy(laugh if you must). Yes I know we've made some mistakes, but sometimes people act like we are out to take over the world. Some people say that we are evil and blood thirsty. I say that is not so. I am sorry for the mistakes we've made, but hijacking planes and ramming them into buildings is not the answer. It offends me that some people just want to let the terrorists off the hook. Some people look at our country and all they can see is George W. Bush. Please look beyond him, our country is more than just him, alot more.
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Originally posted by: WarblerSorry but I take alot of pride in what my country stands for. You say it stands for oil and arrogance. I say it stands for freedom and democracy(laugh if you must). Yes I know we've made some mistakes, but sometimes people act like we are out to take over the world. Some people say that we are evil and blood thirsty. I say that is not so. I am sorry for the mistakes we've made, but hijacking planes and ramming them into buildings is not the answer. It offends me that some people just want to let the terrorists off the hook. Some people look at our country and all they can see is George W. Bush. Please look beyond him, our country is more than just him, alot more.


As the husband of an American who has been all over the States and met many many people, I agree. But I also feel that the soundbite 'freedom and democracy' has been warped slightly, with many not realising it, not only in the U.S.A but in England too. However, no matter how warped and corrupted our freedom and democracy is, it is still a million times purer and truer than most other countries and at least has it's heart in the right place (on a grass roots level that is, not on a governmental or corporate level).

Anyway, I haven't read a newspaper or checked a news website yet, but I saw the headline on a newstand that they have caught the main head honcho behind the London attacks.

War does not make one great.

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I agree with many things you have to say Warbler - but from the terrorists point of view ramming planes into buildings has been 'the' answer - it has got the West involved in a situation where they have lost many middle-eastern friends and allies, invaded a country with no links to terrorism - yet call it part of the war on terror (well, it is now), made martyrs out of those who have died already in the fight vs the West and has acted as a magnet for the some of the young, impressionable and disillusioned Muslim youth into extremism and then terrorism.

It is difficult to believe that Bush was not advised by his military that invading countries would have had this effect, let alone what do we actually do now that we are 'in control' of these countries - the new members of the government that we have set up for them are being assasinated nearly every week - along with Iraqis serving in the police - the fear of the people of Iraq and Afghanistan must be as high as ever...

Shimraa is correct in saying it is battleground where the West and the insurgents and terrorists can engage - but sadly it's not us doing the engaging. The situation there seems lost - and if it then the 'war on terror' - ineffective as it has been so far - will seen to be also lost. What do the West do now? Hopefully looking at the reasons as to why we are hated and reviled in the middle east, begin to understand the actions of the past and present and form a dialogue with these extremists will be a start - though I don't see this very likely...

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Originally posted by: Warbler

sorry but I take them personally, partly I guess because there is some truth to them. Sorry but I take alot of pride in what my country stands for. You say it stands for oil and arrogance. I say it stands for freedom and democracy(laugh if you must). Yes I know we've made some mistakes, but sometimes people act like we are out to take over the world. Some people say that we are evil and blood thirsty. I say that is not so. I am sorry for the mistakes we've made, but hijacking planes and ramming them into buildings is not the answer. It offends me that some people just want to let the terrorists off the hook. Some people look at our country and all they can see is George W. Bush. Please look beyond him, our country is more than just him, alot more.


I'm truly sorry if you feel offended by my remarks, as you are entitled to your opinions.

I also belive the US stands for freedom and democracy. Unfortunally your government dosen't stand for what america stands for. It stands for it's own money-driven and power-driven interests. OF COURSE it's not the right way of things performing terrorists actions, I'm NOT in favor of terrorism or Saddam, I think Saddam got what he deserved, I think his sons got what they deserved, I think BinLaden should be caught and interrogated in order to find out more about the terrorist cells (while he is not the one true source of terrorism, he knows a lot). I am against BOTH sides, in a war I'm against war itself, I don't support either sides. I asked about Idi Amin Dada, no one remembers him, he was one of the most brutal dictators of all time, he used to torture and EAT his enemies, including british people, he supported and helped in the kidnapp of an israeli airplane, and you know who decided to overthrown him? Tanzania. Because there was no finantial interest in overthrowing him. He was not even tried and judged, he lived in a freaking apartment for the last 20 years of his life, he died 1 or 2 years ago...! What about the whole Iran-contras thing, and Rumsfeld meeting Saddam?

I know it's hard to understand, I know it sounds like I'm against america, but what I'm saying is, I'm against the whole world, the whole violent world is corrupt and sick. The allies, the brain-washed ignorant stupid terrorists, I criticize Brazil's government and social problems even more, only not here, you wouldn't know what I'm talking about. I'm against war and violence and stupidity.

The US and UK do not stand for what their government is trying to do.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Ric, I totally understand and agree with what you are saying. I feel the same. I despair at the way the world is run.

War does not make one great.