The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 41

Nandi said:

There can be no reasoning with people who waited and two years for Luke Skywalker to show up only (and didnt mind him) to be a comic relief throwing away his fathers lightsaber - people laughing at that joke will buy anything and defend anyting star wars.

I was hoping we got a lot of Luke in TFA. But we didn’t. So I waited two years to see a badass Luke with lightsaber battles, etc. like we got in the extended universe. But it was a huge letdown.

It’s like, why bother? What really was the point to bring Luke back to pretty much waste an opportunity?

I remember 2-4 year ago Youtube commentators talking about the Luke they wanted to see in the new movies, i.e. extended universe stuff they cherry picked. And then now we got none of that and they love it anyways like this is the Luke they wanted all along.

I still think in 5-10 years, we’ll see lots of hate for the ST.

I really think Disney should have cherry picked the most popular stuff in the extended universe and used that for the ST. I think it would have pleased most Star Wars fans, but still allowed them to also do their own thing as well.

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

Nandi said:

https://medium.com/jackndelaney/star-wars-the-last-jedi-forces-old-fans-to-abandon-ship-1809d5e9d031

^ Saying near-on anything in an opinion-piece to drive traffic to it is still a thing then. A 23 year old lad with a title of ‘The Last Jedi Forces Old Fans to Abandon Ship’… saying that he ‘got it’ then demonstrates that he seemingly didn’t.

I don’t get this sort of response. I don’t get the praise for this film, but I would never claim that someone who loves this film and gushes over it doesn’t get it. So, he’s angry, and he vents his frustration. He’s also extremely polite, and respectful in his responses to those that disagree with him as is seen in the responses to his article.

Many writers who do ‘click-bait titles and pieces’ like this seemingly do the same (more explanation or rationale in conversations in comments) - it is a part of generating more fans, appealing to a wider base, and driving more clicks for the next article (as well as using it as a learning tool to what works and doesn’t - nothing wrong with that).

How does the article reflect the title - where it is that TLJ has forced ‘old fans to abandon ship’? Are the new fans ok with it? Younger fans? Is he the old fan? As stated, likely not at 23. Did he mean fans of the old films? Well, if so - he could made that a little clearer - though we are talking about a click-bait article, so maybe it is in his interests not to?

There is very little balance in that article - if the author took a step back from his anger (be careful where that leads 😉) and his bold type and capitalisation when trying and make a point, then maybe he’d have likely answered many of those questions/issues himself.

Is there balance in article that praises this film to high heaven? He’s very critical of the film, and is very straightforward about it, but this doesn’t make any of his personal feelings any more or less valid than anyone else’s opinion.

I don’t value many articles highly that didn’t have some balance or recourse therein - whether positive or negative, yet that’s just me, and my own opinion.

I feel that article actually somehow invalidated some of the genuine criticisms of the film. It read like a bad reddit review. Eurgh.
 

There has do be better articles out there that genuinely address and note the concerns for many of those what didn’t like TLJ?

Well, that’s the way it works apparently. An emotional article stirs up similar emotions in someone who disagrees, who subsequently more or less dismisses the article off hand, who stirs up emotions in this critical user, who then replies emotionally, which then might lead to another emotional response, which then leads to a moderator…o damn!

I’ve read the article before (yesterday - I think, it was posted on here or another site I visit and felt the same then). I gave the writer’s previous article on TPART a read and thought it a lot better reasoned and thought-out than his TLJ piece - though yet again, just my personal opinion.

I understand your POV. It’s sort of funny, that if a movie disappoints especially one like this, where you sort of feel like you’ve reached a dead end after some 35 years of fandom, you get some strange emotions flowing through your body. I really expected to love this film. I really liked TFA, although I sympathized with many of the criticisms. I grew up with the OT, went to see the 1997 SE in the theatre, went to see each of the prequels, and even though I liked them less and less over time (now considering them a mix of good concepts ruined by horrible execution), I enjoyed each of them when I first saw them in the theatre. This is the first time, that I left the theatre after watching a Star Wars film, feeling empty and not really understanding what just happened. I never had the experience of not wanting to see what happens next, and boy does it suck! So, like many fans who ate up the Plinkett reviews of the prequels, you go looking for articles and videos created by people who are able to better express how you feel. I guess this is one of those articles for me. It’s not balanced, but it serves a purpose, at least to me. Sometimes our opinions aren’t balanced, and I don’t really see why they need to be. It doesn’t mean you don’t respect another point of view. In the end all these reviews are rationalisations of our feelings toward this particular film. If you feel strongly about it in either a positive or negative way, I don’t see the harm in an article reflecting those feelings as long as it isn’t offensive.

LuckyGungan2001 said:

Ryan said:

I still think in 5-10 years, we’ll see lots of hate for the ST.

Five to ten years? I’m seeing so much hate already, the vast majority of which I wholly disagree with.

I’ve mentioned it before. So that post wasn’t clear. What I meant was the people who “like” the ST now. I think many of those in 5-10 will change their minds like what happened with the prequels. As there were people who didn’t like the prequels at the time. But it seemed like a lot of people who liked them at the time, then 5-10 years later changed their minds.

TavorX said:

For some reason, I really dig showing a ‘badass’ Luke in such an unconventional manner. We WANT to see Luke flash his green lightsaber and go absolutely ham on the baddies with a swish and a shoosh. Instead they showed Luke handle the situation differently. Do you think Luke really wanted to duel Vader back in ROTJ? No, he wanted to live up to Yoda’s early teaching of “knowledge and defense, never attack” but Vader managed to push his emotional buttons to make him choose an agressive action.

Here, Luke found a way to help his friends that involved him tapping into the knowledge of the Force in a defensive tactic without laying a finger on Kylo. Would it be fucking badass to see Luke actually duel? Yeah, and it’s also fucking cool to see Star Destroyer, Imperial Walker, and Vader slashing Rebels but ultimately, those were easy cheap tricks to appease fans, to give them what they want without reason (yes, I’m looking at you Rogue One).

Yeah, but the thing that bugs me is, that he didn’t help those friends for many years, and just sat on a rock waiting to die. Even the death of his best friend and the fact that his sister was in a coma didn’t change his mind. You speak of cheap tricks, but isn’t it much more cheap to prop up Rey by having her beat Luke in a short battle with sticks? She get’s the better of him, and could have lopped his head of with the lightsaber, if she wasn’t one of the good guys. Jedi Master Luke get’s beaten by a girl, who up till a few days earlier believed he was the stuff of legends. Shouldn’t such blatant disregard for the established in-universe rules bug you just a little bit? Yoda once said: a Jedi must have the most serious mind, the deepest commitment. Does this film do that line justice? It took Luke an entire training sequence to learn how to lift a few rocks with his mind, and we’re supposed to accept that Rey can move tons of rocks to free our heroes easier than Yoda can lift an X-wing? Are we now supposed to believe Luke could have gotten three basic lessons in the Force (of which only one actually involved the Force), and then beat Darth Vader in a fight, because that’s more or less what happens in this movie.

If got a duel where he faced Kylo in a traditional manner, well, it would mean Luke’s character was really thrown out the window. What we have is a sorrowful and broken

It would mean there wouldn’t be any Kylo at the end of TLJ. If Rey could beat Kylo in the forrest, surely Luke can beat his former pupil with ease, the same pupil, that needed Rey’s help to defeat those guards in Snoke’s throne room.

Luke that couldn’t handle the burden of recreating the Jedi Order alone after failing basically the galaxy and his friends. Rey can now pick up where he left off, now becoming one with the Force, he has the chance to always be there when Rey needs his guidance. Perhaps this is what Luke needed after all this time, someone strong in the Force without the emotional baggage and weight and cynicism.

Yeah, but Luke was strong in the Force without the cynicism. That was his character, until RJ decided to change things. We already had that hero. Was it really needed to turn Luke into a cynic, such that his successor can look like a hero?

Bottom line though, what I’m saying is that I flinch a little at suggesting there’s disappointment in not having battle-badass Luke. It’s kinda like asking for the fan service treatment found in Rogue One and this is something we need to stay away from. Constraint leads to something more creative, like Force projection, which also helps keep passive Luke in-tact.

I’m not so sure everyone who’s critical wanted badass Luke. I didn’t. I did however expect Luke to have grown beyond the person who allways looks at the horizon, as Yoda says he still does in TLJ. I thought he had grown beyond that in ROTJ, but this film tries to sell the argument, that Luke didn’t grow at all for the last few years, and needs untrained Rey to guide him and tell him what’s right, rather than the other way around.

I had some issues after my first viewing of The Last Jedi, but all of those melted away during subsequent showings. The only problem I really have at this point is that Yoda looked horrible. I mean really horrible.

Leia using the Force to save herself from the vacuum of space is now one of my favorite parts of the entire saga. It looked amazing and blew me away.

I loved Poe’s arc of learning what it means to be a leader.

What did everyone expect Luke to do when Rey hands him the lightsaber? Put his arm around her and aske her to tell him all of her troubles? Maybe he should have just did a Yoda impression and said she was too old to begin the training.
Luke is in a bad place. It’s often easier to forgive someone else than to forgive yourself. He went into hiding and closed himself off to the Force. Only after he opens up a little and reach out to check on Leia does Yoda appear to tell him he is still not focused on the present. He is stuck in the past of his old mistakes and is at risk of losing even more if he doesn’t wake up.

I love everything about this movie. I could go on and on.

TavorX said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but the thing that bugs me is, that he didn’t help those friends for many years, and just sat on a rock waiting to die. Even the death of his best friend and the fact that his sister was in a coma didn’t change his mind. You speak of cheap tricks, but isn’t it much more cheap to prop up Rey by having her beat Luke in a short battle with sticks? She get’s the better of him, and could have lopped his head of with the lightsaber, if she wasn’t one of the good guys. Jedi Master Luke get’s beaten by a girl, who up till a few days earlier believed he was the stuff of legends. Shouldn’t such blatant disregard for the established in-universe rules bug you just a little bit? Yoda once said: a Jedi must have the most serious mind, the deepest commitment. Does this film do that line justice? It took Luke an entire training sequence to learn how to lift a few rocks with his mind, and we’re supposed to accept that Rey can move tons of rocks to free our heroes easier than Yoda can lift an X-wing out of the water? Are we now supposed to believe Luke could have gotten three basic lessons in the Force (of which only one actually involved the Force), and then beat Darth Vader in a fight, because that’s more or less what happens in this movie.

In my response to this, see this more as me playing Devil’s advocate, because in a weird sense, as you can read earlier in this thread, I had a change of perspective. Still, however, I totally get your side if that makes sense. But again, playing Devil’s Advocate:

When you mention Luke did nothing when Han died or when Leia was in a coma, well Luke had cut himself off from the Force, so he couldn’t had felt any disturbances in the Force to know of these events. BUT as Luke allows himself to open up to the Force again, he does reconnect to Leia, as shown when Leia whispers “Luke” in her coma. Arguably, this does encourage Luke to take action again. He made the effort to communicate with Leia at end as well.
Of course, if I’m in your shoes, then I’m wondering why did he give up to begin with? As you mentioned Yoda’s line, about the commitment of the Jedi ways and serving justice, well, this stuff is coming from a grand Jedi Master that also did nothing for ~20 years, and it’s not like he was waiting for the “right” time (though I sorta think Obi-Wan watching Luke on Tatooine was his “wait for the right time” plan) given how Yoda flat out refuses to train Luke. Even beyond the exile of Yoda, both Yoda and Obi-Wan were telling Luke to confront Vader in ROTJ because they both lose faith in redeeming Vader. So it was up to Luke, their pupil, to show them otherwise, that yes, Luke was right all along that there was still good in Vader.
In your shoes again, you’re saying, "But him confronting Vader SHOULD had been a defining lesson in his career that should had prevented the Kylo Ren!"
Now, again, in a way weird way, I’m on your side on this, but for once, I can also see the other side to the argument and point being made. The legend of Luke is cemented in history. Luke is the savior of the galaxy because he destroyed Vader/the Emperor and the clutches of the Empire. Living up to this iconic status I imagine came with a lot of stress and responsibility. In a way, both Obi-Wan and Yoda were cowards because they passed on the burden of saving the galaxy to Luke because they didn’t have to deal with the stress and responsibility themselves. So years later into Luke trying to craft a Jedi Order, is essentially trying to do it from scratch. This is actually a huge challenge because he has to teach a new generation of students. How do you craft a Jedi Order that doesn’t falter the like previous one but also utilizes Luke’s personal ideologies? Luke may had been trained to be a Jedi, but that doesn’t mean he was trained to be a teacher. He was going about this alone, probably because Obi-Wan and Yoda could only help so much due to how Luke has his own unique perception of the Force that tries to move beyond the old dogmatic ways his previous masters were used to.
Now, we’ve got Ben Solo who is tainted by the dark side. This one person would probably bring destruction to his academy and bring much pain to his friends, like Han Solo. Luke just fucking snapped. Maybe he saw the future of his friends in pain again, and couldn’t bear to go through that again like he did in ESB. So for a fleeting moment, he didn’t want that to happen, but of course the real Luke regrets even thinking like that. Though this was Luke’s error. He was afraid of mistakes. Afraid of failure. Afraid of letting down the history of the Jedi if this one single person could destroy it all.
At this point, when Kylo Ren is made, Luke’s hopes and aspirations were crushed. A broken person that had little support safety nets to fall on. Sure, Leia and Han were there, but they can only understand so much. Luke was alone. Luke couldn’t be the Jedi for the future generation. He could be the Jedi that removed a huge threat to the galaxy, but rebuilding is much more difficult to achieve than destroying is.

If this sounds like mental gymnastics, it probably is. Merely, however, offering this perspective as someone that totally gets your side. I’m not even trying to imply I’m in the “right” here, as I need to see this film a few more times to really digest it all, so me playing Devil’s Advocate is just that, me trying to process it.

Didn’t reply to other points as I felt this long enough, but hopefully it sorta answers your last point about Rey.

Good points! I can see what you mean. I think it would have helped if we had seen more of how Luke got to the point where we see him in Kylo’s room, his loneliness, his self doubt, and Kylo’s struggles with Luke, his parents, and the dark side. As it is now, the film just asks the viewer to accept, that the Luke you know is gone, he’s changed, and o yeah, here’s a very very short scene that depicts him instinctively thinking of killing his nephew. I’m sure you can figure out the details. Good luck!

timdiggerm said:

DrDre said:

TavorX said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but the thing that bugs me is, that he didn’t help those friends for many years, and just sat on a rock waiting to die. Even the death of his best friend and the fact that his sister was in a coma didn’t change his mind. You speak of cheap tricks, but isn’t it much more cheap to prop up Rey by having her beat Luke in a short battle with sticks? She get’s the better of him, and could have lopped his head of with the lightsaber, if she wasn’t one of the good guys. Jedi Master Luke get’s beaten by a girl, who up till a few days earlier believed he was the stuff of legends. Shouldn’t such blatant disregard for the established in-universe rules bug you just a little bit? Yoda once said: a Jedi must have the most serious mind, the deepest commitment. Does this film do that line justice? It took Luke an entire training sequence to learn how to lift a few rocks with his mind, and we’re supposed to accept that Rey can move tons of rocks to free our heroes easier than Yoda can lift an X-wing out of the water? Are we now supposed to believe Luke could have gotten three basic lessons in the Force (of which only one actually involved the Force), and then beat Darth Vader in a fight, because that’s more or less what happens in this movie.

In my response to this, see this more as me playing Devil’s advocate, because in a weird sense, as you can read earlier in this thread, I had a change of perspective. Still, however, I totally get your side if that makes sense. But again, playing Devil’s Advocate:

When you mention Luke did nothing when Han died or when Leia was in a coma, well Luke had cut himself off from the Force, so he couldn’t had felt any disturbances in the Force to know of these events. BUT as Luke allows himself to open up to the Force again, he does reconnect to Leia, as shown when Leia whispers “Luke” in her coma. Arguably, this does encourage Luke to take action again. He made the effort to communicate with Leia at end as well.
Of course, if I’m in your shoes, then I’m wondering why did he give up to begin with? As you mentioned Yoda’s line, about the commitment of the Jedi ways and serving justice, well, this stuff is coming from a grand Jedi Master that also did nothing for ~20 years, and it’s not like he was waiting for the “right” time (though I sorta think Obi-Wan watching Luke on Tatooine was his “wait for the right time” plan) given how Yoda flat out refuses to train Luke. Even beyond the exile of Yoda, both Yoda and Obi-Wan were telling Luke to confront Vader in ROTJ because they both lose faith in redeeming Vader. So it was up to Luke, their pupil, to show them otherwise, that yes, Luke was right all along that there was still good in Vader.
In your shoes again, you’re saying, "But him confronting Vader SHOULD had been a defining lesson in his career that should had prevented the Kylo Ren!"
Now, again, in a way weird way, I’m on your side on this, but for once, I can also see the other side to the argument and point being made. The legend of Luke is cemented in history. Luke is the savior of the galaxy because he destroyed Vader/the Emperor and the clutches of the Empire. Living up to this iconic status I imagine came with a lot of stress and responsibility. In a way, both Obi-Wan and Yoda were cowards because they passed on the burden of saving the galaxy to Luke because they didn’t have to deal with the stress and responsibility themselves. So years later into Luke trying to craft a Jedi Order, is essentially trying to do it from scratch. This is actually a huge challenge because he has to teach a new generation of students. How do you craft a Jedi Order that doesn’t falter the like previous one but also utilizes Luke’s personal ideologies? Luke may had been trained to be a Jedi, but that doesn’t mean he was trained to be a teacher. He was going about this alone, probably because Obi-Wan and Yoda could only help so much due to how Luke has his own unique perception of the Force that tries to move beyond the old dogmatic ways his previous masters were used to.
Now, we’ve got Ben Solo who is tainted by the dark side. This one person would probably bring destruction to his academy and bring much pain to his friends, like Han Solo. Luke just fucking snapped. Maybe he saw the future of his friends in pain again, and couldn’t bear to go through that again like he did in ESB. So for a fleeting moment, he didn’t want that to happen, but of course the real Luke regrets even thinking like that. Though this was Luke’s error. He was afraid of mistakes. Afraid of failure. Afraid of letting down the history of the Jedi if this one single person could destroy it all.
At this point, when Kylo Ren is made, Luke’s hopes and aspirations were crushed. A broken person that had little support safety nets to fall on. Sure, Leia and Han were there, but they can only understand so much. Luke was alone. Luke couldn’t be the Jedi for the future generation. He could be the Jedi that removed a huge threat to the galaxy, but rebuilding is much more difficult to achieve than destroying is.

If this sounds like mental gymnastics, it probably is. Merely, however, offering this perspective as someone that totally gets your side. I’m not even trying to imply I’m in the “right” here, as I need to see this film a few more times to really digest it all, so me playing Devil’s Advocate is just that, me trying to process it.

Didn’t reply to other points as I felt this long enough, but hopefully it sorta answers your last point about Rey.

Good points! I can see what you mean. I think it would have helped if we had seen more of how Luke got to the point where we see him in Kylo’s room, his loneliness, his self doubt, and Kylo’s struggles with Luke, his parents, and the dark side. As it is now, the film just asks the viewer to accept, that the Luke you know is gone, he’s changed, and o yeah, here’s a very very short scene that depicts him instinctively thinking of killing his nephew. I’m sure you can figure out the details. Good luck!

Yeah, I’m sure the filmmakers were that flippant about this. That’s why they showed the flashback with no context, no narration, no buildup from the previous film, no showing that Luke’s fears were realized despite/because-of his failure, no discussion of his fear of failure, and no one teaching him the value of failure.

Come on, the film makes a point of the fact that it was Luke himself who pushed Kylo over the edge, so he was partly to blame for the fact that those fears were realized. However, they did this in a single 30 sec scene, where they showed three different perspectives, Luke’s initial lie, Kylo’s perspective, and Luke’s revised version. The film ultimately spends more time showing us how the truth depends on your point of view, than actually showing us what made the young Kylo so dangerous (apparently worse than what he’d seen Darth Vader do, a man he refused to believe was lost to the dark side), that made Luke ignite his lighsaber. It is not a well developed plot point, and is ultimately mostly used to give Rey a reason to abandon Luke, and go on her quest to get Kylo back to the light side.

DrDre said:

timdiggerm said:

DrDre said:

TavorX said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but the thing that bugs me is, that he didn’t help those friends for many years, and just sat on a rock waiting to die. Even the death of his best friend and the fact that his sister was in a coma didn’t change his mind. You speak of cheap tricks, but isn’t it much more cheap to prop up Rey by having her beat Luke in a short battle with sticks? She get’s the better of him, and could have lopped his head of with the lightsaber, if she wasn’t one of the good guys. Jedi Master Luke get’s beaten by a girl, who up till a few days earlier believed he was the stuff of legends. Shouldn’t such blatant disregard for the established in-universe rules bug you just a little bit? Yoda once said: a Jedi must have the most serious mind, the deepest commitment. Does this film do that line justice? It took Luke an entire training sequence to learn how to lift a few rocks with his mind, and we’re supposed to accept that Rey can move tons of rocks to free our heroes easier than Yoda can lift an X-wing out of the water? Are we now supposed to believe Luke could have gotten three basic lessons in the Force (of which only one actually involved the Force), and then beat Darth Vader in a fight, because that’s more or less what happens in this movie.

In my response to this, see this more as me playing Devil’s advocate, because in a weird sense, as you can read earlier in this thread, I had a change of perspective. Still, however, I totally get your side if that makes sense. But again, playing Devil’s Advocate:

When you mention Luke did nothing when Han died or when Leia was in a coma, well Luke had cut himself off from the Force, so he couldn’t had felt any disturbances in the Force to know of these events. BUT as Luke allows himself to open up to the Force again, he does reconnect to Leia, as shown when Leia whispers “Luke” in her coma. Arguably, this does encourage Luke to take action again. He made the effort to communicate with Leia at end as well.
Of course, if I’m in your shoes, then I’m wondering why did he give up to begin with? As you mentioned Yoda’s line, about the commitment of the Jedi ways and serving justice, well, this stuff is coming from a grand Jedi Master that also did nothing for ~20 years, and it’s not like he was waiting for the “right” time (though I sorta think Obi-Wan watching Luke on Tatooine was his “wait for the right time” plan) given how Yoda flat out refuses to train Luke. Even beyond the exile of Yoda, both Yoda and Obi-Wan were telling Luke to confront Vader in ROTJ because they both lose faith in redeeming Vader. So it was up to Luke, their pupil, to show them otherwise, that yes, Luke was right all along that there was still good in Vader.
In your shoes again, you’re saying, "But him confronting Vader SHOULD had been a defining lesson in his career that should had prevented the Kylo Ren!"
Now, again, in a way weird way, I’m on your side on this, but for once, I can also see the other side to the argument and point being made. The legend of Luke is cemented in history. Luke is the savior of the galaxy because he destroyed Vader/the Emperor and the clutches of the Empire. Living up to this iconic status I imagine came with a lot of stress and responsibility. In a way, both Obi-Wan and Yoda were cowards because they passed on the burden of saving the galaxy to Luke because they didn’t have to deal with the stress and responsibility themselves. So years later into Luke trying to craft a Jedi Order, is essentially trying to do it from scratch. This is actually a huge challenge because he has to teach a new generation of students. How do you craft a Jedi Order that doesn’t falter the like previous one but also utilizes Luke’s personal ideologies? Luke may had been trained to be a Jedi, but that doesn’t mean he was trained to be a teacher. He was going about this alone, probably because Obi-Wan and Yoda could only help so much due to how Luke has his own unique perception of the Force that tries to move beyond the old dogmatic ways his previous masters were used to.
Now, we’ve got Ben Solo who is tainted by the dark side. This one person would probably bring destruction to his academy and bring much pain to his friends, like Han Solo. Luke just fucking snapped. Maybe he saw the future of his friends in pain again, and couldn’t bear to go through that again like he did in ESB. So for a fleeting moment, he didn’t want that to happen, but of course the real Luke regrets even thinking like that. Though this was Luke’s error. He was afraid of mistakes. Afraid of failure. Afraid of letting down the history of the Jedi if this one single person could destroy it all.
At this point, when Kylo Ren is made, Luke’s hopes and aspirations were crushed. A broken person that had little support safety nets to fall on. Sure, Leia and Han were there, but they can only understand so much. Luke was alone. Luke couldn’t be the Jedi for the future generation. He could be the Jedi that removed a huge threat to the galaxy, but rebuilding is much more difficult to achieve than destroying is.

If this sounds like mental gymnastics, it probably is. Merely, however, offering this perspective as someone that totally gets your side. I’m not even trying to imply I’m in the “right” here, as I need to see this film a few more times to really digest it all, so me playing Devil’s Advocate is just that, me trying to process it.

Didn’t reply to other points as I felt this long enough, but hopefully it sorta answers your last point about Rey.

Good points! I can see what you mean. I think it would have helped if we had seen more of how Luke got to the point where we see him in Kylo’s room, his loneliness, his self doubt, and Kylo’s struggles with Luke, his parents, and the dark side. As it is now, the film just asks the viewer to accept, that the Luke you know is gone, he’s changed, and o yeah, here’s a very very short scene that depicts him instinctively thinking of killing his nephew. I’m sure you can figure out the details. Good luck!

Yeah, I’m sure the filmmakers were that flippant about this. That’s why they showed the flashback with no context, no narration, no buildup from the previous film, no showing that Luke’s fears were realized despite/because-of his failure, no discussion of his fear of failure, and no one teaching him the value of failure.

Come on, the film makes a point of the fact that it was Luke himself who pushed Kylo over the edge, so he was partly to blame for the fact that those fears were realized. However, they did this in a single 30 sec scene, where they showed three different perspectives, Luke’s initial lie, Kylo’s perspective, and Luke’s revised version. The film ultimately spends more time showing us how the truth depends on your point of view, than actually showing us what made the young Kylo so dangerous, that Luke ignited his lighsaber.

eh, i respectfully disagree. I think perhaps what you are experiencing is the fact that not everything works for 100% of the audience.

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

timdiggerm said:

DrDre said:

TavorX said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but the thing that bugs me is, that he didn’t help those friends for many years, and just sat on a rock waiting to die. Even the death of his best friend and the fact that his sister was in a coma didn’t change his mind. You speak of cheap tricks, but isn’t it much more cheap to prop up Rey by having her beat Luke in a short battle with sticks? She get’s the better of him, and could have lopped his head of with the lightsaber, if she wasn’t one of the good guys. Jedi Master Luke get’s beaten by a girl, who up till a few days earlier believed he was the stuff of legends. Shouldn’t such blatant disregard for the established in-universe rules bug you just a little bit? Yoda once said: a Jedi must have the most serious mind, the deepest commitment. Does this film do that line justice? It took Luke an entire training sequence to learn how to lift a few rocks with his mind, and we’re supposed to accept that Rey can move tons of rocks to free our heroes easier than Yoda can lift an X-wing out of the water? Are we now supposed to believe Luke could have gotten three basic lessons in the Force (of which only one actually involved the Force), and then beat Darth Vader in a fight, because that’s more or less what happens in this movie.

In my response to this, see this more as me playing Devil’s advocate, because in a weird sense, as you can read earlier in this thread, I had a change of perspective. Still, however, I totally get your side if that makes sense. But again, playing Devil’s Advocate:

When you mention Luke did nothing when Han died or when Leia was in a coma, well Luke had cut himself off from the Force, so he couldn’t had felt any disturbances in the Force to know of these events. BUT as Luke allows himself to open up to the Force again, he does reconnect to Leia, as shown when Leia whispers “Luke” in her coma. Arguably, this does encourage Luke to take action again. He made the effort to communicate with Leia at end as well.
Of course, if I’m in your shoes, then I’m wondering why did he give up to begin with? As you mentioned Yoda’s line, about the commitment of the Jedi ways and serving justice, well, this stuff is coming from a grand Jedi Master that also did nothing for ~20 years, and it’s not like he was waiting for the “right” time (though I sorta think Obi-Wan watching Luke on Tatooine was his “wait for the right time” plan) given how Yoda flat out refuses to train Luke. Even beyond the exile of Yoda, both Yoda and Obi-Wan were telling Luke to confront Vader in ROTJ because they both lose faith in redeeming Vader. So it was up to Luke, their pupil, to show them otherwise, that yes, Luke was right all along that there was still good in Vader.
In your shoes again, you’re saying, "But him confronting Vader SHOULD had been a defining lesson in his career that should had prevented the Kylo Ren!"
Now, again, in a way weird way, I’m on your side on this, but for once, I can also see the other side to the argument and point being made. The legend of Luke is cemented in history. Luke is the savior of the galaxy because he destroyed Vader/the Emperor and the clutches of the Empire. Living up to this iconic status I imagine came with a lot of stress and responsibility. In a way, both Obi-Wan and Yoda were cowards because they passed on the burden of saving the galaxy to Luke because they didn’t have to deal with the stress and responsibility themselves. So years later into Luke trying to craft a Jedi Order, is essentially trying to do it from scratch. This is actually a huge challenge because he has to teach a new generation of students. How do you craft a Jedi Order that doesn’t falter the like previous one but also utilizes Luke’s personal ideologies? Luke may had been trained to be a Jedi, but that doesn’t mean he was trained to be a teacher. He was going about this alone, probably because Obi-Wan and Yoda could only help so much due to how Luke has his own unique perception of the Force that tries to move beyond the old dogmatic ways his previous masters were used to.
Now, we’ve got Ben Solo who is tainted by the dark side. This one person would probably bring destruction to his academy and bring much pain to his friends, like Han Solo. Luke just fucking snapped. Maybe he saw the future of his friends in pain again, and couldn’t bear to go through that again like he did in ESB. So for a fleeting moment, he didn’t want that to happen, but of course the real Luke regrets even thinking like that. Though this was Luke’s error. He was afraid of mistakes. Afraid of failure. Afraid of letting down the history of the Jedi if this one single person could destroy it all.
At this point, when Kylo Ren is made, Luke’s hopes and aspirations were crushed. A broken person that had little support safety nets to fall on. Sure, Leia and Han were there, but they can only understand so much. Luke was alone. Luke couldn’t be the Jedi for the future generation. He could be the Jedi that removed a huge threat to the galaxy, but rebuilding is much more difficult to achieve than destroying is.

If this sounds like mental gymnastics, it probably is. Merely, however, offering this perspective as someone that totally gets your side. I’m not even trying to imply I’m in the “right” here, as I need to see this film a few more times to really digest it all, so me playing Devil’s Advocate is just that, me trying to process it.

Didn’t reply to other points as I felt this long enough, but hopefully it sorta answers your last point about Rey.

Good points! I can see what you mean. I think it would have helped if we had seen more of how Luke got to the point where we see him in Kylo’s room, his loneliness, his self doubt, and Kylo’s struggles with Luke, his parents, and the dark side. As it is now, the film just asks the viewer to accept, that the Luke you know is gone, he’s changed, and o yeah, here’s a very very short scene that depicts him instinctively thinking of killing his nephew. I’m sure you can figure out the details. Good luck!

Yeah, I’m sure the filmmakers were that flippant about this. That’s why they showed the flashback with no context, no narration, no buildup from the previous film, no showing that Luke’s fears were realized despite/because-of his failure, no discussion of his fear of failure, and no one teaching him the value of failure.

Come on, the film makes a point of the fact that it was Luke himself who pushed Kylo over the edge, so he was partly to blame for the fact that those fears were realized. However, they did this in a single 30 sec scene, where they showed three different perspectives, Luke’s initial lie, Kylo’s perspective, and Luke’s revised version. The film ultimately spends more time showing us how the truth depends on your point of view, than actually showing us what made the young Kylo so dangerous, that Luke ignited his lighsaber.

eh, i respectfully disagree. I think perhaps what you are experiencing is the fact that not everything works for 100% of the audience.

You disagree with what? It wasn’t a very short scene? Did they show us anything about young Ben Solo before he became Kylo Ren? Didn’t we get three different versions of the story, time that could have been spent further developing the backstory of Luke/Ben/Snoke? How about all the time spent following Finn and Rose on a pointless mission. Could that entire arc not have been removed to better develop the Luke/Ben/Snoke backstory? Would this not have lead to a better understanding of Luke’s decisions, and made Snoke’s death more meaningful, if he hadn’t been reduced to a plot device?

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

timdiggerm said:

DrDre said:

TavorX said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but the thing that bugs me is, that he didn’t help those friends for many years, and just sat on a rock waiting to die. Even the death of his best friend and the fact that his sister was in a coma didn’t change his mind. You speak of cheap tricks, but isn’t it much more cheap to prop up Rey by having her beat Luke in a short battle with sticks? She get’s the better of him, and could have lopped his head of with the lightsaber, if she wasn’t one of the good guys. Jedi Master Luke get’s beaten by a girl, who up till a few days earlier believed he was the stuff of legends. Shouldn’t such blatant disregard for the established in-universe rules bug you just a little bit? Yoda once said: a Jedi must have the most serious mind, the deepest commitment. Does this film do that line justice? It took Luke an entire training sequence to learn how to lift a few rocks with his mind, and we’re supposed to accept that Rey can move tons of rocks to free our heroes easier than Yoda can lift an X-wing out of the water? Are we now supposed to believe Luke could have gotten three basic lessons in the Force (of which only one actually involved the Force), and then beat Darth Vader in a fight, because that’s more or less what happens in this movie.

In my response to this, see this more as me playing Devil’s advocate, because in a weird sense, as you can read earlier in this thread, I had a change of perspective. Still, however, I totally get your side if that makes sense. But again, playing Devil’s Advocate:

When you mention Luke did nothing when Han died or when Leia was in a coma, well Luke had cut himself off from the Force, so he couldn’t had felt any disturbances in the Force to know of these events. BUT as Luke allows himself to open up to the Force again, he does reconnect to Leia, as shown when Leia whispers “Luke” in her coma. Arguably, this does encourage Luke to take action again. He made the effort to communicate with Leia at end as well.
Of course, if I’m in your shoes, then I’m wondering why did he give up to begin with? As you mentioned Yoda’s line, about the commitment of the Jedi ways and serving justice, well, this stuff is coming from a grand Jedi Master that also did nothing for ~20 years, and it’s not like he was waiting for the “right” time (though I sorta think Obi-Wan watching Luke on Tatooine was his “wait for the right time” plan) given how Yoda flat out refuses to train Luke. Even beyond the exile of Yoda, both Yoda and Obi-Wan were telling Luke to confront Vader in ROTJ because they both lose faith in redeeming Vader. So it was up to Luke, their pupil, to show them otherwise, that yes, Luke was right all along that there was still good in Vader.
In your shoes again, you’re saying, "But him confronting Vader SHOULD had been a defining lesson in his career that should had prevented the Kylo Ren!"
Now, again, in a way weird way, I’m on your side on this, but for once, I can also see the other side to the argument and point being made. The legend of Luke is cemented in history. Luke is the savior of the galaxy because he destroyed Vader/the Emperor and the clutches of the Empire. Living up to this iconic status I imagine came with a lot of stress and responsibility. In a way, both Obi-Wan and Yoda were cowards because they passed on the burden of saving the galaxy to Luke because they didn’t have to deal with the stress and responsibility themselves. So years later into Luke trying to craft a Jedi Order, is essentially trying to do it from scratch. This is actually a huge challenge because he has to teach a new generation of students. How do you craft a Jedi Order that doesn’t falter the like previous one but also utilizes Luke’s personal ideologies? Luke may had been trained to be a Jedi, but that doesn’t mean he was trained to be a teacher. He was going about this alone, probably because Obi-Wan and Yoda could only help so much due to how Luke has his own unique perception of the Force that tries to move beyond the old dogmatic ways his previous masters were used to.
Now, we’ve got Ben Solo who is tainted by the dark side. This one person would probably bring destruction to his academy and bring much pain to his friends, like Han Solo. Luke just fucking snapped. Maybe he saw the future of his friends in pain again, and couldn’t bear to go through that again like he did in ESB. So for a fleeting moment, he didn’t want that to happen, but of course the real Luke regrets even thinking like that. Though this was Luke’s error. He was afraid of mistakes. Afraid of failure. Afraid of letting down the history of the Jedi if this one single person could destroy it all.
At this point, when Kylo Ren is made, Luke’s hopes and aspirations were crushed. A broken person that had little support safety nets to fall on. Sure, Leia and Han were there, but they can only understand so much. Luke was alone. Luke couldn’t be the Jedi for the future generation. He could be the Jedi that removed a huge threat to the galaxy, but rebuilding is much more difficult to achieve than destroying is.

If this sounds like mental gymnastics, it probably is. Merely, however, offering this perspective as someone that totally gets your side. I’m not even trying to imply I’m in the “right” here, as I need to see this film a few more times to really digest it all, so me playing Devil’s Advocate is just that, me trying to process it.

Didn’t reply to other points as I felt this long enough, but hopefully it sorta answers your last point about Rey.

Good points! I can see what you mean. I think it would have helped if we had seen more of how Luke got to the point where we see him in Kylo’s room, his loneliness, his self doubt, and Kylo’s struggles with Luke, his parents, and the dark side. As it is now, the film just asks the viewer to accept, that the Luke you know is gone, he’s changed, and o yeah, here’s a very very short scene that depicts him instinctively thinking of killing his nephew. I’m sure you can figure out the details. Good luck!

Yeah, I’m sure the filmmakers were that flippant about this. That’s why they showed the flashback with no context, no narration, no buildup from the previous film, no showing that Luke’s fears were realized despite/because-of his failure, no discussion of his fear of failure, and no one teaching him the value of failure.

Come on, the film makes a point of the fact that it was Luke himself who pushed Kylo over the edge, so he was partly to blame for the fact that those fears were realized. However, they did this in a single 30 sec scene, where they showed three different perspectives, Luke’s initial lie, Kylo’s perspective, and Luke’s revised version. The film ultimately spends more time showing us how the truth depends on your point of view, than actually showing us what made the young Kylo so dangerous, that Luke ignited his lighsaber.

eh, i respectfully disagree. I think perhaps what you are experiencing is the fact that not everything works for 100% of the audience.

You disagree with what? It wasn’t a very short scene? Did they show us anything about young Ben Solo before he became Kylo Ren? Didn’t we get three different versions of the story, time that could have been spent further developing the backstory of Luke/Ben/Snoke? How about all the time spent following Finn and Rose on a pointless mission. Could that entire arc not have been removed to better develop the Luke/Ben/Snoke backstory?

i specifically meant this: “The film ultimately spends more time showing us how the truth depends on your point of view, than actually showing us what made the young Kylo so dangerous, that Luke ignited his lighsaber.”

but i also disagree about a few of those other things i suppose 😃

TavorX said:

Another thought since DrDre mentioned it: I also was having issue with how Ben Solo’s only ‘crime’ was having the taint of the dark side in him. But perhaps one could think that Luke is a perfectionist in the prime of his career. Maybe he couldn’t digest it well or fathom that one of his own students could already be lost to the dark side. He simply wasn’t prepared to deal with someone else, a pupil, turning. In that moment, Luke was seeing that future of Kylo Ren being born and causing much anguish. It’s not like his previous Force vision in ESB turned out to be wrong, as yes, his friends were in pain. To Luke at that point basically learned the future is set in stone, and not like how Yoda said it where the future is “always in motion”.

So Luke was freaked out just as much Ben was freaked out. That event created not only Kylo Ren but also broken Luke.

The point is, I can understand Luke feeling the tremendous burden and responsibility of restoring the Jedi order on his own. I can understand Luke getting upset after seeing visions of his Jedi order destroyed, and trying to figure out what to do about this. If there had been some buildup to the scene we witnessed, it might have been more easy to swallow, for example if Ben had hurt one of the students during training, and seemed to enjoy the experience. This would make Luke’s reaction, while still being distraught about what he had just witnessed, understandable. As it is now, the film says Luke saw some dark thoughts and a possible future, and couldn’t control his fear, as a fully trained Jedi should.

If for no other reason than the title of the article.

https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/a-list-of-some-of-the-times-the-last-jedi-told-the-olde-1821396631

A List Of Some Of The Times The Last Jedi Told The Older Star Wars Movies To Eat Shit

But also because it’s a good list…and it’s a good (partial) list of things I liked about TLJ.