The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 180

DrDre said:

Collipso said:
Like Mithrandir said several pages ago, what RJ did with Luke was possibly the best way to go given what was setup in VII. The only thing I still disagree with RJ is that I don’t think Luke would ever even consider murdering Ben in his sleep, nor that it’d be something or some kind of instinct that would pass like a fleeting shadow.

I don’t completely agree. Han said in TFA, that Luke went looking for the First Jedi Temple. This in my view implies two things:

1. The location of the First Jedi Temple was unknown, and it may have taken Luke quite a while to find it.
2. Luke went there for a reason.

Then theres are these lines in the TFA screenplay, which describe my sense of the final scenes of TFA pretty well:

“Older now, white hair, bearded. He looks at Rey. A kindness in his eyes, but there’s something tortured, too. He doesn’t need to ask her who she is, or what she is doing here. His look says it all.”

So, I always assumed Luke went looking for the First Jedi Temple to find some answers for how to deal with his failed attempt to rebuild the Jedi Order. While there he discovers Rey may have an important role to play in the future of the Jedi amongst other things, and knows she will come to find him, when the time is right. This is why Luke stands there in ceremonial Jedi robes. The master is waiting for the student.

I’m convinced JJ had a very different idea in mind, when he filmed that final scene.

One reason I hate the scene in TFA. Other than showing Luke, it serves no purpose to the story. Finding the map was a good ending. They find the map and Rey leaves to find him. Sticking that scene in there without any resolution was a dumb move. Unless Abrams was doing the next one, the purpose of that scene cannot be determined from any TFA source. It has no ending so what Abrams intended is of no importance. We’ve spent two years trying to dissect it for meaning and RJ had a different vision and there is nothing in the scene as filmed that contradicts the direction RJ took it. You can look to the screenplay for Abrams intentions, but those intentions did not end up on screen. Neither did the floating rocks.

yotsuya said:

Having seen the film four times and having read a lot of opinions, I think I see some of the problem. Rian wrote Kylo too well. And while his words failed to convince Rey, they seem to have convinced some members of the audience. Kylo is trying to destroy the past. That is his thing. That is not the story that RJ gave us.

TLJ is a mirror of TESB. It is in a different time and setting and the purpose of the story is very different. TESB was a personal journey for the characters while the Rebellion, having successfully escaped Hoth, rendezvoused and regrouped, untouched by the Empire. TLJ sees the Resistance flee the FO only to be followed, hounded, and nearly annihilated. But we still get the same journey for our characters. In both cases it is of personal growth. In TESB, Luke is trained by Yoda and Han and Leia finally admit their feelings. In TLJ, Rey seeks training form Luke, only to find him unwilling, so she takes what little he had offered her and the ancient texts. But she got to him and her actions bring Luke to help the Resistance in their time of need. Luke distracts while Rey rescues. Poe learns how to be a leader instead of just a foolhardy hero. Finn grows form someone always wanted to run to someone now willing to stand and fight. Neither movie takes the wider conflict any further. The FO had destroyed two Resistance bases and reduced the their number, but not their message, and the Resistance has destroyed two of the FO’s largest ships.

The question is, what’s next. We now know that Abrams and RJ coordinated some between TFA and TLJ. The screenplay for TLJ was already written before TFA was finished and led to some edits to TFA. And given that Abrams had a TV background, I think we can assume that they are telling a coordinated story. There was a story for IX. No idea what direction it will take now that Carrie has left us. Will Abrams junk it or just rework it? Who knows. But at the end of TESB we are left with Han frozen and the rebellion baseless. In TLJ we are left with the characters intact but the Resistance in shambles, but with hope. But in TESB, we have a galaxy wide Empire that is strong and unwavering. In TLJ, we have a First Order just beginning its conquest, not yet cemented or truly in power yet. The crawl uses the word reigns, but I take that to mean there is no force to oppose them rather than they have actually taken over anything and the rest of the text of the crawl agrees with that as does the movie dialog. It also provides a reason why Leia’s call was not answered. But the final scene in the stable shows that Luke had again brought hope and if word has reached Canto Bight, it will spread across the galaxy and give courage to those who want to resist the First Order’s conquest.

I think that rather than deconstructing the mythology, this movie is just forwarding the mythology in a different way. RJ had an ending setup for IX. This was leading somewhere and he didn’t let Carrie’s passing change this story because I believe he knew how to rework the ending. The other director did not want to so Abrams came back. With his background in TV, and teams of writers and working on series that can introduce new twists, I bet they have something in mind for the IX finale. It may not be quite what RJ had in mind, but if they handed Abrams and ending and he sticks with it, it could be one hell of a movie. And I think at that point the mythology side of this trilogy will be obvious. The OT wasn’t a story of redemption until ROTJ. We are in the middle of this trilogy and I doubt we can see where it is going so jumping to conclusion such as deconstructing or resetting, is probably a bit premature. This was the setup the the saga finale. Seeing it as anything else is, in my mind, an unjustified misinterpretation.

+2

yotsuya said:

But at the end of TESB we are left with Han frozen and the rebellion baseless. In TLJ we are left with the characters intact but the Resistance in shambles, but with hope. But in TESB, we have a galaxy wide Empire that is strong and unwavering. In TLJ, we have a First Order just beginning its conquest, not yet cemented or truly in power yet. The crawl uses the word reigns, but I take that to mean there is no force to oppose them rather than they have actually taken over anything and the rest of the text of the crawl agrees with that as does the movie dialog. It also provides a reason why Leia’s call was not answered. But the final scene in the stable shows that Luke had again brought hope and if word has reached Canto Bight, it will spread across the galaxy and give courage to those who want to resist the First Order’s conquest.

Yes, but that’s where our interpretations differ. TLJ makes a strong case, that the FO is a pretty much unstoppable force. Apart from the crawl, there’s the statement in the film, that the FO will control all major systems in weeks. This might not be very credible, but this is the message the film tries to get across. Then there’s the fact, that the Resistance/rebellion is decimated. People might be inspired, but it is hope without substance, wishful thinking at best. It is a spark that has to evaporate an ocean of bad. It may turn into a great big fire, but it may also be extinguished. If the latter is not the case, there’s no more tension in the film, as the heroes will prevail no matter what. The situation at the end of TESB is quite different. The Rebel Alliance may be without a base, but it has a fleet and personel. It has a real hope of defeating the Empire, more than just inspiration. There are unresolved story threads, like what will become of Han Solo? Is Darth Vader really Luke’s father? Is the Emperor really so powerful, that he can boss around Darth Vader? What is left to resolve after TLJ? I would say very little, other than the rebellion has to somehow reform, and beat the FO.

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Collipso said:
Like Mithrandir said several pages ago, what RJ did with Luke was possibly the best way to go given what was setup in VII. The only thing I still disagree with RJ is that I don’t think Luke would ever even consider murdering Ben in his sleep, nor that it’d be something or some kind of instinct that would pass like a fleeting shadow.

I don’t completely agree. Han said in TFA, that Luke went looking for the First Jedi Temple. This in my view implies two things:

1. The location of the First Jedi Temple was unknown, and it may have taken Luke quite a while to find it.
2. Luke went there for a reason.

Then theres are these lines in the TFA screenplay, which describe my sense of the final scenes of TFA pretty well:

“Older now, white hair, bearded. He looks at Rey. A kindness in his eyes, but there’s something tortured, too. He doesn’t need to ask her who she is, or what she is doing here. His look says it all.”

So, I always assumed Luke went looking for the First Jedi Temple to find some answers for how to deal with his failed attempt to rebuild the Jedi Order. While there he discovers Rey may have an important role to play in the future of the Jedi amongst other things, and knows she will come to find him, when the time is right. This is why Luke stands there in ceremonial Jedi robes. The master is waiting for the student.

I’m convinced JJ had a very different idea in mind, when he filmed that final scene.

One reason I hate the scene in TFA. Other than showing Luke, it serves no purpose to the story. Finding the map was a good ending. They find the map and Rey leaves to find him. Sticking that scene in there without any resolution was a dumb move. Unless Abrams was doing the next one, the purpose of that scene cannot be determined from any TFA source. It has no ending so what Abrams intended is of no importance. We’ve spent two years trying to dissect it for meaning and RJ had a different vision and there is nothing in the scene as filmed that contradicts the direction RJ took it. You can look to the screenplay for Abrams intentions, but those intentions did not end up on screen. Neither did the floating rocks.

I don’t agree. Many people interpreted the final scene the way it was written in the script. I know, I did. If anything it made no sense for Luke to be standing there in full Jedi robes, if all he did was to sulk on a rock and drink alien milk. The first thing Luke did was take off the robes, and slip into something more unceremonious. The Jedi robes in a sense are representative of JJ’s vision, while Luke’s plain clothes are representative of RJ’s.

Collipso said:

I left TFA’s midnight screening with my brother and I remember we had the same exact argument (he was profoundly upset with TLJ and loved TFA). He was talking about how Luke had gone searching for the Jedi temple to learn,and how amazing that was and how he was being patient and amazing.

I said that I don’t think Luke would ever flee, and that I didn’t like how TFA treated his character. I do realize it’s a bit unfair to say that because he had 0 lines in the movie, but the idea that he simply fled and his friend died and the Republic died and all he did was… nothing didn’t resonate well with me.

My 9 year old liked TLJ, but we watched Star Wars and Empire last week (he’d seen them before but it had been a while), and yesterday in the car, he suddenly says that he had trouble believing the Luke in Star Wars would act like he does in TLJ.

I’m gonna ignore these monolithic posts and share the IHE review/discussion of reactions overall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSU1STltwS0

Mocata said:

I’m gonna ignore these monolithic posts and share the IHE review/discussion of reactions overall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSU1STltwS0

I’m going to ignore both!

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

But at the end of TESB we are left with Han frozen and the rebellion baseless. In TLJ we are left with the characters intact but the Resistance in shambles, but with hope. But in TESB, we have a galaxy wide Empire that is strong and unwavering. In TLJ, we have a First Order just beginning its conquest, not yet cemented or truly in power yet. The crawl uses the word reigns, but I take that to mean there is no force to oppose them rather than they have actually taken over anything and the rest of the text of the crawl agrees with that as does the movie dialog. It also provides a reason why Leia’s call was not answered. But the final scene in the stable shows that Luke had again brought hope and if word has reached Canto Bight, it will spread across the galaxy and give courage to those who want to resist the First Order’s conquest.

Yes, but that’s where our interpretations differ. TLJ makes a strong case, that the FO is a pretty much unstoppable force. Apart from the crawl, there’s the statement in the film, that the FO will control all major systems in weeks. This might not be very credible, but this is the message the film tries to get across. Then there’s the fact, that the Resistance/rebellion is decimated. People might be inspired, but it is hope without substance, wishful thinking at best. It is a spark that has to evaporate an ocean of bad. It may turn into a great big fire, but it may also be extinguished. If the latter is not the case, there’s no more tension in the film, as the heroes will prevail no matter what. The situation at the end of TESB is quite different. The Rebel Alliance may be without a base, but it has a fleet and personel. It has a real hope of defeating the Empire, more than just inspiration. There are unresolved story threads, like what will become of Han Solo? Is Darth Vader really Luke’s father? Is the Emperor really so powerful, that he can boss around Darth Vader?

Well, let’s handle the last one first. While in TESB Vader got to shine, in ANH and ROTJ he is definitely subordinate to both Tarkin and Palpatine. So I don’t think there was any question that the Emperor was more powerful. The scene in TESB really makes that clear when Vader calls him master. And there is no more hope of the Rebellion defeating the Empire at the end of the movie than at the beginning. However, in TLJ, that hope of defeating the First Order is implicit in the storyline. In the beginning it is slim, at the end, after Luke’s great act, it is strong. True the Resistance has been nearly wiped out, but Leia has allies. They didn’t respond because no one knows where the First Order is going to begin their conquest. And the only statement about when the First Order will take over is made by Rey, who, unless she has seen it in a force vision, probably doesn’t have Leia’s knowledge of galactic politics and strategy. I’m sure Leia knows who is going to cave and who will fight and we don’t have her estimate of the situation, only Rey’s. So I prefer to be optimistic of the galactic situation. Not to mention that Kylo Ren had just assumed power and may not make the same decisions as Snoke and things may proceed differently with him in control. We also don’t know the size of their fleet, now down by two of its largest ships. In the OT the Jedi were not back until the Sail Barge. In this ST, they are back and the galaxy knows it. I would say that changes the picture from where the movie started.

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

I think the suggestion to listen to the Empire podcast and hear from Rian himself is a good suggestion though. You will only re-inforce your own feelings if you read an article like that Dre. Where-as you could actually get real information directly fromt he Horses mouth if you listen to Rian explain some of the decisions he made.

time to come clean - i haven’t listened to that podcast myself yet.

I might give it a listen, although I did read the article. It’s always interesting to hear about a creator’s intentions. However, I also think a film should be analyzed on it’s own terms. The PT is based on some good concepts and ideas, but in the end it was the execution of those ideas that made it less than successful for me personally.

It is very helpful to know the filmmaker’s intentions, as they could give insight on something you missed. Then you can go back and determine if the film executed it well. It’s fair if you ultimately don’t think so, but just because you didn’t understand their intentions when you first watched, doesn’t mean their intentions aren’t properly conveyed on screen. (Note I’m speaking in general here, not necessarily to you)

Much like the Lucas with the OT, apparently the writers of the ST are making things up as they go. But since these are different people, I’m getting the feeling that the ST is a little bit directionless, more so than the OT, or the PT for that matter. (Even though the PT shouldn’t count - it was all Lucas and yeah)

I really hope we don’t get another “Leia! Leia’s my sister!” Moment.

https://youtu.be/m6bAIu7mXjI This video gets the point across pretty well. Although I do disagree with him in several points.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

But at the end of TESB we are left with Han frozen and the rebellion baseless. In TLJ we are left with the characters intact but the Resistance in shambles, but with hope. But in TESB, we have a galaxy wide Empire that is strong and unwavering. In TLJ, we have a First Order just beginning its conquest, not yet cemented or truly in power yet. The crawl uses the word reigns, but I take that to mean there is no force to oppose them rather than they have actually taken over anything and the rest of the text of the crawl agrees with that as does the movie dialog. It also provides a reason why Leia’s call was not answered. But the final scene in the stable shows that Luke had again brought hope and if word has reached Canto Bight, it will spread across the galaxy and give courage to those who want to resist the First Order’s conquest.

Yes, but that’s where our interpretations differ. TLJ makes a strong case, that the FO is a pretty much unstoppable force. Apart from the crawl, there’s the statement in the film, that the FO will control all major systems in weeks. This might not be very credible, but this is the message the film tries to get across. Then there’s the fact, that the Resistance/rebellion is decimated. People might be inspired, but it is hope without substance, wishful thinking at best. It is a spark that has to evaporate an ocean of bad. It may turn into a great big fire, but it may also be extinguished. If the latter is not the case, there’s no more tension in the film, as the heroes will prevail no matter what. The situation at the end of TESB is quite different. The Rebel Alliance may be without a base, but it has a fleet and personel. It has a real hope of defeating the Empire, more than just inspiration. There are unresolved story threads, like what will become of Han Solo? Is Darth Vader really Luke’s father? Is the Emperor really so powerful, that he can boss around Darth Vader? What is left to resolve after TLJ? I would say very little, other than the rebellion has to somehow reform, and beat the FO.

I tend to agree with this. “So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause” we had to wait 20 years for any sort of resistance or rebellion to rise again the Empire. Rebels has established that it happened more or less at the same time, with several cells rebelling in several places. But that was 15 years after RotS. Unless we have a huge time jump now, it’s going to be hard to have a huge showdown RotJ-style in IX and make it believable. But I hope they pull it off if they decide to go for it.

I wonder if they’re going to do something different for IX that not the final Rebels vs Empire and Rey vs Kylo confrontation. I really hope so.

TV’s Frink said:

Mocata said:

I’m gonna ignore these monolithic posts and share the IHE review/discussion of reactions overall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSU1STltwS0

I’m going to ignore both!

You’re missing out.

Collipso said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

But at the end of TESB we are left with Han frozen and the rebellion baseless. In TLJ we are left with the characters intact but the Resistance in shambles, but with hope. But in TESB, we have a galaxy wide Empire that is strong and unwavering. In TLJ, we have a First Order just beginning its conquest, not yet cemented or truly in power yet. The crawl uses the word reigns, but I take that to mean there is no force to oppose them rather than they have actually taken over anything and the rest of the text of the crawl agrees with that as does the movie dialog. It also provides a reason why Leia’s call was not answered. But the final scene in the stable shows that Luke had again brought hope and if word has reached Canto Bight, it will spread across the galaxy and give courage to those who want to resist the First Order’s conquest.

Yes, but that’s where our interpretations differ. TLJ makes a strong case, that the FO is a pretty much unstoppable force. Apart from the crawl, there’s the statement in the film, that the FO will control all major systems in weeks. This might not be very credible, but this is the message the film tries to get across. Then there’s the fact, that the Resistance/rebellion is decimated. People might be inspired, but it is hope without substance, wishful thinking at best. It is a spark that has to evaporate an ocean of bad. It may turn into a great big fire, but it may also be extinguished. If the latter is not the case, there’s no more tension in the film, as the heroes will prevail no matter what. The situation at the end of TESB is quite different. The Rebel Alliance may be without a base, but it has a fleet and personel. It has a real hope of defeating the Empire, more than just inspiration. There are unresolved story threads, like what will become of Han Solo? Is Darth Vader really Luke’s father? Is the Emperor really so powerful, that he can boss around Darth Vader? What is left to resolve after TLJ? I would say very little, other than the rebellion has to somehow reform, and beat the FO.

I tend to agree with this. “So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause” we had to wait 20 years for any sort of resistance or rebellion to rise again the Empire. Rebels has established that it happened more or less at the same time, with several cells rebelling in several places. But that was 15 years after RotS. Unless we have a huge time jump now, it’s going to be hard to have a huge showdown RotJ-style in IX and make it believable. But I hope they pull it off if they decide to go for it.

I wonder if they’re going to do something different for IX that not the final Rebels vs Empire and Rey vs Kylo confrontation. I really hope so.

The big difference. At the end of ROTS, you have the long established Galactic Republic turn into the first Galactic Empire. That means all the institutions, all the structure, everything remains in place and there is just a change at the top. In the ST, we have the capitol of the new Republic destroyed along with the fleet. The First Order is moving in (present action, not yet completed) so they will have to come in and establish a new structure and build it from scratch. On some world they may just be able to step into the Republic’s shoes, other they will have to fight to gain control. They cannot just walk into the role of the Republic like the Emperor did in ROTS. So the situation is entirely different. If Leia can raise a fleet in time, they could still stop the First Order from gaining any real power in the remains of the Republic and many of the Republic world will likely form a new govenment on another world. There is no easy path here like the Emperor spent so many years arranging for himself. The First Order was always about conquest of the new Republic while the Empire was about subjugation of the extant old Republic.

It will not take 20 years to gather allies to fight back. It could happen in weeks or months and be realistic.

yotsuya said:

Collipso said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

But at the end of TESB we are left with Han frozen and the rebellion baseless. In TLJ we are left with the characters intact but the Resistance in shambles, but with hope. But in TESB, we have a galaxy wide Empire that is strong and unwavering. In TLJ, we have a First Order just beginning its conquest, not yet cemented or truly in power yet. The crawl uses the word reigns, but I take that to mean there is no force to oppose them rather than they have actually taken over anything and the rest of the text of the crawl agrees with that as does the movie dialog. It also provides a reason why Leia’s call was not answered. But the final scene in the stable shows that Luke had again brought hope and if word has reached Canto Bight, it will spread across the galaxy and give courage to those who want to resist the First Order’s conquest.

Yes, but that’s where our interpretations differ. TLJ makes a strong case, that the FO is a pretty much unstoppable force. Apart from the crawl, there’s the statement in the film, that the FO will control all major systems in weeks. This might not be very credible, but this is the message the film tries to get across. Then there’s the fact, that the Resistance/rebellion is decimated. People might be inspired, but it is hope without substance, wishful thinking at best. It is a spark that has to evaporate an ocean of bad. It may turn into a great big fire, but it may also be extinguished. If the latter is not the case, there’s no more tension in the film, as the heroes will prevail no matter what. The situation at the end of TESB is quite different. The Rebel Alliance may be without a base, but it has a fleet and personel. It has a real hope of defeating the Empire, more than just inspiration. There are unresolved story threads, like what will become of Han Solo? Is Darth Vader really Luke’s father? Is the Emperor really so powerful, that he can boss around Darth Vader? What is left to resolve after TLJ? I would say very little, other than the rebellion has to somehow reform, and beat the FO.

I tend to agree with this. “So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause” we had to wait 20 years for any sort of resistance or rebellion to rise again the Empire. Rebels has established that it happened more or less at the same time, with several cells rebelling in several places. But that was 15 years after RotS. Unless we have a huge time jump now, it’s going to be hard to have a huge showdown RotJ-style in IX and make it believable. But I hope they pull it off if they decide to go for it.

I wonder if they’re going to do something different for IX that not the final Rebels vs Empire and Rey vs Kylo confrontation. I really hope so.

The big difference. At the end of ROTS, you have the long established Galactic Republic turn into the first Galactic Empire. That means all the institutions, all the structure, everything remains in place and there is just a change at the top. In the ST, we have the capitol of the new Republic destroyed along with the fleet. The First Order is moving in (present action, not yet completed) so they will have to come in and establish a new structure and build it from scratch. On some world they may just be able to step into the Republic’s shoes, other they will have to fight to gain control. They cannot just walk into the role of the Republic like the Emperor did in ROTS. So the situation is entirely different. If Leia can raise a fleet in time, they could still stop the First Order from gaining any real power in the remains of the Republic and many of the Republic world will likely form a new govenment on another world. There is no easy path here like the Emperor spent so many years arranging for himself. The First Order was always about conquest of the new Republic while the Empire was about subjugation of the extant old Republic.

It will not take 20 years to gather allies to fight back. It could happen in weeks or months and be realistic.

How? It took the Allies three years to mount an attack against the Axis powers in WWII, who like the FO conquered continental Europe in a matter of weeks. The allies were mostly sovereign nations with their military power intact. The Resistance is in ruins. Even if they still have allies, it takes years to form and build an organisation with a unified agenda. The weeks or months prognosis is completely unrealistic even in the GFFA.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Collipso said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

But at the end of TESB we are left with Han frozen and the rebellion baseless. In TLJ we are left with the characters intact but the Resistance in shambles, but with hope. But in TESB, we have a galaxy wide Empire that is strong and unwavering. In TLJ, we have a First Order just beginning its conquest, not yet cemented or truly in power yet. The crawl uses the word reigns, but I take that to mean there is no force to oppose them rather than they have actually taken over anything and the rest of the text of the crawl agrees with that as does the movie dialog. It also provides a reason why Leia’s call was not answered. But the final scene in the stable shows that Luke had again brought hope and if word has reached Canto Bight, it will spread across the galaxy and give courage to those who want to resist the First Order’s conquest.

Yes, but that’s where our interpretations differ. TLJ makes a strong case, that the FO is a pretty much unstoppable force. Apart from the crawl, there’s the statement in the film, that the FO will control all major systems in weeks. This might not be very credible, but this is the message the film tries to get across. Then there’s the fact, that the Resistance/rebellion is decimated. People might be inspired, but it is hope without substance, wishful thinking at best. It is a spark that has to evaporate an ocean of bad. It may turn into a great big fire, but it may also be extinguished. If the latter is not the case, there’s no more tension in the film, as the heroes will prevail no matter what. The situation at the end of TESB is quite different. The Rebel Alliance may be without a base, but it has a fleet and personel. It has a real hope of defeating the Empire, more than just inspiration. There are unresolved story threads, like what will become of Han Solo? Is Darth Vader really Luke’s father? Is the Emperor really so powerful, that he can boss around Darth Vader? What is left to resolve after TLJ? I would say very little, other than the rebellion has to somehow reform, and beat the FO.

I tend to agree with this. “So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause” we had to wait 20 years for any sort of resistance or rebellion to rise again the Empire. Rebels has established that it happened more or less at the same time, with several cells rebelling in several places. But that was 15 years after RotS. Unless we have a huge time jump now, it’s going to be hard to have a huge showdown RotJ-style in IX and make it believable. But I hope they pull it off if they decide to go for it.

I wonder if they’re going to do something different for IX that not the final Rebels vs Empire and Rey vs Kylo confrontation. I really hope so.

The big difference. At the end of ROTS, you have the long established Galactic Republic turn into the first Galactic Empire. That means all the institutions, all the structure, everything remains in place and there is just a change at the top. In the ST, we have the capitol of the new Republic destroyed along with the fleet. The First Order is moving in (present action, not yet completed) so they will have to come in and establish a new structure and build it from scratch. On some world they may just be able to step into the Republic’s shoes, other they will have to fight to gain control. They cannot just walk into the role of the Republic like the Emperor did in ROTS. So the situation is entirely different. If Leia can raise a fleet in time, they could still stop the First Order from gaining any real power in the remains of the Republic and many of the Republic world will likely form a new govenment on another world. There is no easy path here like the Emperor spent so many years arranging for himself. The First Order was always about conquest of the new Republic while the Empire was about subjugation of the extant old Republic.

It will not take 20 years to gather allies to fight back. It could happen in weeks or months and be realistic.

How? It took the Allies three years to mount an attack against the Axis powers in WWII, who like the FO conquered continental Europe in a matter of weeks. The allies were mostly sovereign nations with their military power intact. The Resistance is in ruins. Even if they still have allies, it takes years to form and build an organisation with a unified agenda. The weeks or months prognosis is completely unrealistic even in the GFFA.

wasn’t that three year delay mostly how long it took for the political machines of various allied countries to come to agreement on a response? basically, it didn’t need to be 3 years.

oojason said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Collipso said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

But at the end of TESB we are left with Han frozen and the rebellion baseless. In TLJ we are left with the characters intact but the Resistance in shambles, but with hope. But in TESB, we have a galaxy wide Empire that is strong and unwavering. In TLJ, we have a First Order just beginning its conquest, not yet cemented or truly in power yet. The crawl uses the word reigns, but I take that to mean there is no force to oppose them rather than they have actually taken over anything and the rest of the text of the crawl agrees with that as does the movie dialog. It also provides a reason why Leia’s call was not answered. But the final scene in the stable shows that Luke had again brought hope and if word has reached Canto Bight, it will spread across the galaxy and give courage to those who want to resist the First Order’s conquest.

Yes, but that’s where our interpretations differ. TLJ makes a strong case, that the FO is a pretty much unstoppable force. Apart from the crawl, there’s the statement in the film, that the FO will control all major systems in weeks. This might not be very credible, but this is the message the film tries to get across. Then there’s the fact, that the Resistance/rebellion is decimated. People might be inspired, but it is hope without substance, wishful thinking at best. It is a spark that has to evaporate an ocean of bad. It may turn into a great big fire, but it may also be extinguished. If the latter is not the case, there’s no more tension in the film, as the heroes will prevail no matter what. The situation at the end of TESB is quite different. The Rebel Alliance may be without a base, but it has a fleet and personel. It has a real hope of defeating the Empire, more than just inspiration. There are unresolved story threads, like what will become of Han Solo? Is Darth Vader really Luke’s father? Is the Emperor really so powerful, that he can boss around Darth Vader? What is left to resolve after TLJ? I would say very little, other than the rebellion has to somehow reform, and beat the FO.

I tend to agree with this. “So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause” we had to wait 20 years for any sort of resistance or rebellion to rise again the Empire. Rebels has established that it happened more or less at the same time, with several cells rebelling in several places. But that was 15 years after RotS. Unless we have a huge time jump now, it’s going to be hard to have a huge showdown RotJ-style in IX and make it believable. But I hope they pull it off if they decide to go for it.

I wonder if they’re going to do something different for IX that not the final Rebels vs Empire and Rey vs Kylo confrontation. I really hope so.

The big difference. At the end of ROTS, you have the long established Galactic Republic turn into the first Galactic Empire. That means all the institutions, all the structure, everything remains in place and there is just a change at the top. In the ST, we have the capitol of the new Republic destroyed along with the fleet. The First Order is moving in (present action, not yet completed) so they will have to come in and establish a new structure and build it from scratch. On some world they may just be able to step into the Republic’s shoes, other they will have to fight to gain control. They cannot just walk into the role of the Republic like the Emperor did in ROTS. So the situation is entirely different. If Leia can raise a fleet in time, they could still stop the First Order from gaining any real power in the remains of the Republic and many of the Republic world will likely form a new govenment on another world. There is no easy path here like the Emperor spent so many years arranging for himself. The First Order was always about conquest of the new Republic while the Empire was about subjugation of the extant old Republic.

It will not take 20 years to gather allies to fight back. It could happen in weeks or months and be realistic.

How? It took the Allies three years to mount an attack against the Axis powers in WWII, who like the FO conquered continental Europe in a matter of weeks. The allies were mostly sovereign nations with their military power intact. The Resistance is in ruins. Even if they still have allies, it takes years to form and build an organisation with a unified agenda. The weeks or months prognosis is completely unrealistic even in the GFFA.

30 million deaths on the Eastern Front say otherwise mate - our Allies in the East fought and attacked the Axis Powers throughout that period of time. And that’s not taking into account aerial raids, naval engagements, and guerrilla warfare on Axis infrastructure and selected targets by the Western Allies during that period.
 

Who knows where Episode IX will take us - though it wouldn’t be unreasonable to see Resistance adopt a guerrilla warfare style of fighting / attacking the FO (especially the FO hierarchy) if there are no additional Allies to further/bolster their cause.

I’d enjoy watching that. I think it’d be pretty cool if they made a montage showing several attacks Age of Ultron or Captain America: The First Avenger style.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Collipso said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

But at the end of TESB we are left with Han frozen and the rebellion baseless. In TLJ we are left with the characters intact but the Resistance in shambles, but with hope. But in TESB, we have a galaxy wide Empire that is strong and unwavering. In TLJ, we have a First Order just beginning its conquest, not yet cemented or truly in power yet. The crawl uses the word reigns, but I take that to mean there is no force to oppose them rather than they have actually taken over anything and the rest of the text of the crawl agrees with that as does the movie dialog. It also provides a reason why Leia’s call was not answered. But the final scene in the stable shows that Luke had again brought hope and if word has reached Canto Bight, it will spread across the galaxy and give courage to those who want to resist the First Order’s conquest.

Yes, but that’s where our interpretations differ. TLJ makes a strong case, that the FO is a pretty much unstoppable force. Apart from the crawl, there’s the statement in the film, that the FO will control all major systems in weeks. This might not be very credible, but this is the message the film tries to get across. Then there’s the fact, that the Resistance/rebellion is decimated. People might be inspired, but it is hope without substance, wishful thinking at best. It is a spark that has to evaporate an ocean of bad. It may turn into a great big fire, but it may also be extinguished. If the latter is not the case, there’s no more tension in the film, as the heroes will prevail no matter what. The situation at the end of TESB is quite different. The Rebel Alliance may be without a base, but it has a fleet and personel. It has a real hope of defeating the Empire, more than just inspiration. There are unresolved story threads, like what will become of Han Solo? Is Darth Vader really Luke’s father? Is the Emperor really so powerful, that he can boss around Darth Vader? What is left to resolve after TLJ? I would say very little, other than the rebellion has to somehow reform, and beat the FO.

I tend to agree with this. “So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause” we had to wait 20 years for any sort of resistance or rebellion to rise again the Empire. Rebels has established that it happened more or less at the same time, with several cells rebelling in several places. But that was 15 years after RotS. Unless we have a huge time jump now, it’s going to be hard to have a huge showdown RotJ-style in IX and make it believable. But I hope they pull it off if they decide to go for it.

I wonder if they’re going to do something different for IX that not the final Rebels vs Empire and Rey vs Kylo confrontation. I really hope so.

The big difference. At the end of ROTS, you have the long established Galactic Republic turn into the first Galactic Empire. That means all the institutions, all the structure, everything remains in place and there is just a change at the top. In the ST, we have the capitol of the new Republic destroyed along with the fleet. The First Order is moving in (present action, not yet completed) so they will have to come in and establish a new structure and build it from scratch. On some world they may just be able to step into the Republic’s shoes, other they will have to fight to gain control. They cannot just walk into the role of the Republic like the Emperor did in ROTS. So the situation is entirely different. If Leia can raise a fleet in time, they could still stop the First Order from gaining any real power in the remains of the Republic and many of the Republic world will likely form a new govenment on another world. There is no easy path here like the Emperor spent so many years arranging for himself. The First Order was always about conquest of the new Republic while the Empire was about subjugation of the extant old Republic.

It will not take 20 years to gather allies to fight back. It could happen in weeks or months and be realistic.

How? It took the Allies three years to mount an attack against the Axis powers in WWII, who like the FO conquered continental Europe in a matter of weeks. The allies were mostly sovereign nations with their military power intact. The Resistance is in ruins. Even if they still have allies, it takes years to form and build an organisation with a unified agenda. The weeks or months prognosis is completely unrealistic even in the GFFA.

Um… that is one front of one war. It took 4 months for the US to mount the Doolittle Raid on Tokyo. The battle of Midway was 7 months to the day from Pearl Harbor. By the time D-day happened half the battles in the Pacific had been fought. And you are talking about a major invasion of occupied territory. That is not the case as we leave the story in TLJ. The Republic had a fleet, but unless they were absolutely crazy, so did many of the worlds of the Republic. Where is the Mon Calamari fleet? And there are bound to be others. And if you think they aren’t out there, then why did Leia send that message? When you consider all the pieces given to us in TLJ, the First Order invasion is not going to be met without a fight. And an invasion force is only good until it is spread too thin.

Also, the other theaters of WWII were North Africa, Mediterranean, and the Eastern Front, all of which saw major activity prior to D-day. Also, the war was going for 2 years with plenty of activity on all fronts before Pearl Harbor. So your analogy is way way off.

There’s really nothing at the end of TLJ to suggest we won’t be getting the typical SW time jump. A lot can happen in a few years.

I think I went a bit too far saying 20 years would be the only acceptable time jump, but I think that 5-10 would be ideal.

DominicCobb said:

There’s really nothing at the end of TLJ to suggest we won’t be getting the typical SW time jump. A lot can happen in a few years.

I’m expecting anything from a few hours to a few years.

Collipso said:

I think I went a bit too far saying 20 years would be the only acceptable time jump, but I think that 5-10 would be ideal.

IF the story requires a long term battle for control of the galaxy, you are probably right. If they are going the make the story more character driven, it might be a much shorter period of time and focus on stopping the First Order and dealing with Kylo Ren.

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Collipso said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

But at the end of TESB we are left with Han frozen and the rebellion baseless. In TLJ we are left with the characters intact but the Resistance in shambles, but with hope. But in TESB, we have a galaxy wide Empire that is strong and unwavering. In TLJ, we have a First Order just beginning its conquest, not yet cemented or truly in power yet. The crawl uses the word reigns, but I take that to mean there is no force to oppose them rather than they have actually taken over anything and the rest of the text of the crawl agrees with that as does the movie dialog. It also provides a reason why Leia’s call was not answered. But the final scene in the stable shows that Luke had again brought hope and if word has reached Canto Bight, it will spread across the galaxy and give courage to those who want to resist the First Order’s conquest.

Yes, but that’s where our interpretations differ. TLJ makes a strong case, that the FO is a pretty much unstoppable force. Apart from the crawl, there’s the statement in the film, that the FO will control all major systems in weeks. This might not be very credible, but this is the message the film tries to get across. Then there’s the fact, that the Resistance/rebellion is decimated. People might be inspired, but it is hope without substance, wishful thinking at best. It is a spark that has to evaporate an ocean of bad. It may turn into a great big fire, but it may also be extinguished. If the latter is not the case, there’s no more tension in the film, as the heroes will prevail no matter what. The situation at the end of TESB is quite different. The Rebel Alliance may be without a base, but it has a fleet and personel. It has a real hope of defeating the Empire, more than just inspiration. There are unresolved story threads, like what will become of Han Solo? Is Darth Vader really Luke’s father? Is the Emperor really so powerful, that he can boss around Darth Vader? What is left to resolve after TLJ? I would say very little, other than the rebellion has to somehow reform, and beat the FO.

I tend to agree with this. “So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause” we had to wait 20 years for any sort of resistance or rebellion to rise again the Empire. Rebels has established that it happened more or less at the same time, with several cells rebelling in several places. But that was 15 years after RotS. Unless we have a huge time jump now, it’s going to be hard to have a huge showdown RotJ-style in IX and make it believable. But I hope they pull it off if they decide to go for it.

I wonder if they’re going to do something different for IX that not the final Rebels vs Empire and Rey vs Kylo confrontation. I really hope so.

The big difference. At the end of ROTS, you have the long established Galactic Republic turn into the first Galactic Empire. That means all the institutions, all the structure, everything remains in place and there is just a change at the top. In the ST, we have the capitol of the new Republic destroyed along with the fleet. The First Order is moving in (present action, not yet completed) so they will have to come in and establish a new structure and build it from scratch. On some world they may just be able to step into the Republic’s shoes, other they will have to fight to gain control. They cannot just walk into the role of the Republic like the Emperor did in ROTS. So the situation is entirely different. If Leia can raise a fleet in time, they could still stop the First Order from gaining any real power in the remains of the Republic and many of the Republic world will likely form a new govenment on another world. There is no easy path here like the Emperor spent so many years arranging for himself. The First Order was always about conquest of the new Republic while the Empire was about subjugation of the extant old Republic.

It will not take 20 years to gather allies to fight back. It could happen in weeks or months and be realistic.

How? It took the Allies three years to mount an attack against the Axis powers in WWII, who like the FO conquered continental Europe in a matter of weeks. The allies were mostly sovereign nations with their military power intact. The Resistance is in ruins. Even if they still have allies, it takes years to form and build an organisation with a unified agenda. The weeks or months prognosis is completely unrealistic even in the GFFA.

Um… that is one front of one war. It took 4 months for the US to mount the Doolittle Raid on Tokyo. The battle of Midway was 7 months to the day from Pearl Harbor. By the time D-day happened half the battles in the Pacific had been fought. And you are talking about a major invasion of occupied territory. That is not the case as we leave the story in TLJ. The Republic had a fleet, but unless they were absolutely crazy, so did many of the worlds of the Republic. Where is the Mon Calamari fleet? And there are bound to be others. And if you think they aren’t out there, then why did Leia send that message? When you consider all the pieces given to us in TLJ, the First Order invasion is not going to be met without a fight. And an invasion force is only good until it is spread too thin.

Also, the other theaters of WWII were North Africa, Mediterranean, and the Eastern Front, all of which saw major activity prior to D-day. Also, the war was going for 2 years with plenty of activity on all fronts before Pearl Harbor. So your analogy is way way off.

Actually it is not, as many of the allied countries that mounted those attacks you mention were not invaded. As I stated these were sovereign nations with fully intact military capabilities. As TLJ states, the FO will control all the major systems in weeks. You continue to ignore what is stated jn the film. This clearly implies these systems do not have the military capabilities to stop them. So, a rebellion would have to be mounted from occupied territory. As such the comparisson to the battle of Midway is way off. If anything it would take much longer to organize a rebellion, because unlike the resistance organisations in many occupied countries during WWII, the rebellion in the GFFA is not supported by sovereign military powers.