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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 114

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Matt.F said:

Collipso said:

I think that lots of criticism towards both movies upon release are the same, from what the link SilverWook provided tells and from what I can see of TLJ’s reaction.

However, some criticism towards TLJ isn’t about the moviemaking aspect. It’s about the literal core of the characters, with lots of people thinking Luke was ruined, or that Rey doesn’t obey the rules of the universe, etc etc.

And those complaints aren’t going away. They’re problems the audience has with the core of the movie, and I see it as different from the criticisms TESB received upon release.

No, there is no difference between the nitpicks of Empire and The Last Jedi. Only different in your mind. You must unlearn what you have learned.

It’s unwise to deal in absolutes. It’s also somewhat rude.

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chyron8472 said:

Warbler said:

joefavs said:

This is the first time in my 28 years that I’ve even seen it suggested that Luke could’ve been doing anything other than choking the guards. I had no idea there was any disagreement at all about that.

This is the first time in the 34 years since the movie came out that I have heard he was force choking the guards. I must have watched ROTJ millions of times and never got that idea.

How could you not have known this? They very obviously clutch at their throats. And it is an example of how Luke is getting closer to turning to the Dark Side.

As I said earlier. It is possibly because for years I was only watching the pan and scan version of ROTJ and maybe the guards grabbing their throats got cut out of the frame.

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I’m not trying to argue that he didn’t use force choke, I am simply saying one possible reason why I didn’t realize it for so long.

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Porkins4real said:

TV’s Frink said:

Lol…although how is he a descendant of a human from future earth? I thought that was Jabba.

I am glad you got a chuckle as that was my intent…

There was SW book that followed a group of 5000 humans from Earth in the 25th Century who fall into a black hole or some other plot device and end up in a galaxy far away in a time long long (long) ago. The first Solo was part of the 5000 humans. The humans then go on to populate the galaxy and are the source of all human we see in SW.

This was indeed planned, but it never actually saw the light of day.

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Warbler said:

I’m not trying to argue that he didn’t use force choke, I am simply saying one possible reason why I didn’t realize it for so long.

[Luke I Don’t Care Pic]

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 (Edited)

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

I just wonder if oojason thinks the fight between Vader and Luke in ROTJ was a draw that was broken apart by the Emperor using force lightning.

If you’re wondering what I think about certain things you likely need to get a life mate.

Why are you angry with me? I am not the only one that thinks Rey won the fight against Ren.

Who said I was angry? That you spend time wondering about what I think about is a little sad, and also weird. You probably wouldn’t get it right anyway 😉

Plus, I don’t care that you are not the only one that thinks Rey won the fight vs Rey. Again, read my first post on it if it bothers you that much.

And try not to project context of one argument into other situations. It does your own point of view - nor yourself - much good.

Huh?

I haven’t mentioned Luke vs Vader in ROTJ at all - you taking my opinion on the Kylo vs Rey fight from TFA and putting it into the context of Luke vs Vader in ROTJ is doing just that.
 

If you think I’m spending any more time and effort going around with in circles on this, think on. I am not.
 

If you wish you can discuss this ‘TFA Rey vs Ren fight’ topic you can do so in the TFA thread - this part of the conversation has gone on long enough - and lost it’s context within TLJ - in a thread on TLJ.

The same for everyone else who wishes to continue with it.

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adywan said:

Collipso said:

I think that lots of criticism towards both movies upon release are the same, from what the link SilverWook provided tells and from what I can see of TLJ’s reaction.

However, some criticism towards TLJ isn’t about the moviemaking aspect. It’s about the literal core of the characters, with lots of people thinking Luke was ruined, or that Rey doesn’t obey the rules of the universe, etc etc.

And those complaints aren’t going away. They’re problems the audience has with the core of the movie, and I see it as different from the criticisms TESB received upon release.

There were many criticisms about the characters when ESB came out. Claiming they ruined Leia because they turned her into a cow that tossed aside Luke and there is no way she would ever have been interested in Han. That they ruined Luke. They turned him from this hero that was powerful enough to destroy the Death Star and now he is this winging kid who is now a failure because he can’t do some simple tricks that the muppet asks him to do and then who gets his ass kicked and cries like a baby. And having 3P0 & R2 split up for most of the film also received a lot of flack .

I don’t see how those complaints would be in the same level as TLJ’s complaints. It would be if we were all angry that Rey is struggling to succeed/learn, how Poe isn’t choosing the right person to date, or something like that.

However, I can see that some of the TLJ Rey/TESB Luke criticisms/nitpicks would be the same, or at least of the same kind. They are complaints about their journey so far. From what you say, people thought that Luke’s Journey was too hard and nowadays some of us think Rey’s is too easy. I personally think that a difficult journey is more compelling, and makes you care more about the character, seeing him fail, etc.

I guess that if Rey was struggling super hard with something else to compensate for her force powers she’d be a more interesting character, but I don’t see this other struggle some people have mentioned.

Regarding TLJ Luke and TLJ itself, I think that several people are complaining about how they undermined some of the deepest themes from the other six movies, like DrDre pointed out, and traits and characterization aspects for Luke in order to advance the new guys’ story. Unfortunately the main hero falls flat to a lot of people. Oh well.

So while I can see that some of the criticisms for both movies are similar, all in all I think the TLJ ones go much deeper. You must take into account that the franchise has existed for over 40 years now, so it has a lot more going for it than at the time of TESB. It has more established aspects and rules that ought to be respected and weren’t.

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In real life there are two ways to acquire skills. First you find a teacher study work hard and grow your skills. The second way which is not uncommon, is that life gives you lessons and teaches you and forges your skills. In Star Wars the typical Jedi fashion is to find a teacher and learn and study. This is the root Luke takes. And then the quality of teaching is dependent on the quality of your teacher. We all know that Kenobi feels he was a bad teacher which is why Anakin fell. But in The Force Awakens we were introduced to Ray who’d grown up on the desert planet of Jakku. It was a hard life and she learned many lessons from it and gained many skills. This is a contrast to where we find Luke on Tatooine at his uncle’s Farm. He doesn’t appear to have learned many lessons and is woefully unprepared to be a Jedi. So in the course of the movies he has to be retrained. As Yoda said he has to unlearn what he has learned. This means the lessons he grew up with or the opposite of what he needed. That means the skills he learned in life or not what he needed to be a Jedi. But Rey on the other hand did learn the lessons she needed to become a Jedi from her life on Jakku. So the difference in training between the two goes back to the difference and backgrounds and the different skills that they acquired growing up and living their lives. Yoda had to correct things that Luke had wrong and consequently he could lift the X-Wing out of the swamp. He could barely lift stones. But Ray has no such doubts no such bad training. Instead she grew up with the right skills to tap into the force. I don’t know how you find her story inconsistent with the previous movies. It is there in the original trilogy. Luke had to be retrained. Ever tried to do that? That is 10 times harder than learning it in the first place.

And as I posted before, Ray does not pick up Force powers out of the blue. Everything she does she learns from Kylo Ren. She was already a skilled warrior with a staff when we meet her. She’s able to pick up a lightsaber and hold her own before kylo gives her the small lesson to tap into the force and a moment to do it. Andrea’s able to defeat him because of that moment Kylo Ren is not his full potential. Then in the Last Jedi when they face the praetorian guards you see the power difference between the two. Rey struggles to fight one on one but Kylo is fighting two or three at the same time and does much better. There’s a clear skill difference between the two and Kylo comes out on top.

I’ve only seen the movie twice so far but I have picked up on quite a few things. First off, Rey’s portrayal exactly matches her portrayal in The Force Awakens so any complaints about that have to be leveled at Abrams. I find that all the characters are very consistent with how Abrams treated them. For me Leia was the big Improvement by becoming a much stronger leader than we saw before. And given the backstory of Luke from The Force Awakens the Luke we are presented in this movie is right on target. Abrams made several critical mistakes and his movie by using his typical storytelling I’m leaving huge holes for someone else to fill. I think some of the difference in the way people take this movie is whether or not then like to Abrams did and wanted to see it answered, or didn’t like what he did and didn’t mind that it got thrown out the window. I don’t think Abrams is a good storyteller so I really didn’t care that all these things that he’s so carefully set up or thrown out. And really it was more the fans that hyped Rey’s parentage then the movie did. Her parents were left a mystery but Abraham said himself that her parents were not in the movie. So she was never going to be a Skywalker. And Kenobi was in the movie so she was never going to be a Kenobi. He really set it up that she was a nobody and just didn’t reveal that fact. And he’s the one who failed to reveal who Snoke was. Why was that even left a mystery? He’s the one who didn’t answer that question. He’s a bad Storyteller you don’t leave those questions to him to another Storyteller to answer, you answer them yourself. Was there any reason for Snoke to be a big mystery? No none. So the expectations that people have that weren’t met it’s Abrams fault. And now Abrams gets to come back and deal with the story is and come up with an ending. Something he sucks at. The only hope I see you for the next installment is a glimmer of hope that Lucas head outlined what the first side of the story was supposed to be and that Abrams follows it and has an ending.

To have two arguments that are going on are Abraham’s fault. If Rey is inconsistent with the original trilogy it’s his fault. If we don’t like where we find Luke in the story, it’s his fault. Well that one’s actually Lucas’s fault according to what I’m reading. Lucas said he was going to be an exile, Abrams went with that and establish the destruction of the Jedi Order and the fall of Ben Solo to Kylo Ren. So all almost all these arguments go back to the stupid things that Abraham’s did and we’re not paying the price because they were stupid. But everyone’s now blaming Rian Johnson because he’s trying to recover a good story from the junk that Abrams left behind. I found his slow chase to be much more interesting than the stupid Starkiller base. I found what he did to be much more intriguing I liked where he went with the characters and I like how he subverted what Abrams had started and did something that I felt was far more in keeping with the characters. So the quality of Rian Johnson story lies in he was true to the characters he was given. You may disagree about Luke and that’s fine, but I think he went in a great direction I felt like the Luke I saw was a direct offshoot of the Luke I grew up with. This whole Rey/Mary Sue argument really belongs in The Force Awakens thread because that’s where it started.

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TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

Luke: “Is the dark side stronger?”
Yoda: “No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.”

In TLJ Rey takes the path of the dark side in that she gets Force powers too easily, while Kylo Ren has trained his whole life, which is more of the original concept for the light side. The light and dark side’s have literally been inverted in the new trilogy, where the light path is actually the dark side, and the dark path is actually the light side.

said some guy on the interweb

I don’t see how this makes any sense at all.

Yoda was talking about choosing the quicker, easier path. Running off to save your friends before you’re ready, for instance. Rey had no choice to make the way Luke did - she was ready. Even if you think she didn’t struggle enough, you can’t blame her for that.

You’re really stretching to prove this movie got everything wrong.

Funny enough, I enjoyed the ‘movie’ in isolation, though I think the new Jamanji was much better. I just think this movie craps on the OT and the TFA.

I really hate how Rey is arguably the most powerful (or amongst the most powerful) force users ever right out of the gate when everyone else had to work at it.

So much was lost in the movie that could have been great

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oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

I just wonder if oojason thinks the fight between Vader and Luke in ROTJ was a draw that was broken apart by the Emperor using force lightning.

If you’re wondering what I think about certain things you likely need to get a life mate.

Why are you angry with me? I am not the only one that thinks Rey won the fight against Ren.

Who said I was angry? That you spend time wondering about what I think about is a little sad, and also weird. You probably wouldn’t get it right anyway 😉

Plus, I don’t care that you are not the only one that thinks Rey won the fight vs Rey. Again, read my first post on it if it bothers you that much.

And try not to project context of one argument into other situations. It does your own point of view - nor yourself - much good.

Huh?

I haven’t mentioned Luke vs Vader in ROTJ at all - you taking my opinion on the Kylo vs Rey fight from TFA and putting it into the context of Luke vs Vader in ROTJ is doing just that.
 

If you think I’m spending any more time and effort going around with in circles on this, think on. I am not.
 

If you wish you can discuss this ‘TFA Rey vs Ren fight’ topic you can do so in the TFA thread - this part of the conversation has gone on long enough - and lost it’s context within TLJ - in a thread on TLJ.

The same for everyone else who wishes to continue with it.

Sheesh.

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Collipso said:

I think that lots of criticism towards both movies upon release are the same, from what the link SilverWook provided tells and from what I can see of TLJ’s reaction.

However, some criticism towards TLJ isn’t about the moviemaking aspect. It’s about the literal core of the characters, with lots of people thinking Luke was ruined, or that Rey doesn’t obey the rules of the universe, etc etc.

And those complaints aren’t going away. They’re problems the audience has with the core of the movie, and I see it as different from the criticisms TESB received upon release.

Having lived through the release of Empire and not being a little kid at the time, I can say for sure that a lot of the criticisms were most certainly about the core and the characters themselves. In the interest of disclosure, I was very disappointed in how the characters of Vader and Han were handled.

Vader was morphed into something other than a second tier military officer and Han had become a good guy proper, not a scoundrel who did a nice thing. The final dagger was Vader as a family member. Lucas had altered both characters, to me, to the point where they were too different for me to care.

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Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

I just wonder if oojason thinks the fight between Vader and Luke in ROTJ was a draw that was broken apart by the Emperor using force lightning.

If you’re wondering what I think about certain things you likely need to get a life mate.

Why are you angry with me? I am not the only one that thinks Rey won the fight against Ren.

Who said I was angry? That you spend time wondering about what I think about is a little sad, and also weird. You probably wouldn’t get it right anyway 😉

Plus, I don’t care that you are not the only one that thinks Rey won the fight vs Rey. Again, read my first post on it if it bothers you that much.

And try not to project context of one argument into other situations. It does your own point of view - nor yourself - much good.

Huh?

I haven’t mentioned Luke vs Vader in ROTJ at all - you taking my opinion on the Kylo vs Rey fight from TFA and putting it into the context of Luke vs Vader in ROTJ is doing just that.
 

If you think I’m spending any more time and effort going around with in circles on this, think on. I am not.
 

If you wish you can discuss this ‘TFA Rey vs Ren fight’ topic you can do so in the TFA thread - this part of the conversation has gone on long enough - and lost it’s context within TLJ - in a thread on TLJ.

The same for everyone else who wishes to continue with it.

Sheesh.

If you have a problem with any of that feel free to PM me about it.

I’m off out for the night - Happy New Year 😃

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 (Edited)

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.

I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.

I think it’s disingenuous to say TLJ is an average blockbuster or that anything it has to say is on that level of Transformers, or Geostorm, or Avengers. If anything, it’s a little too heady for its own good. I definitely think it has pacing and tonal issues, as well as one too many plot threads that clearly have muddled what it was trying to say in the end, but its intentions and fundamental ideas have more depth than just “insert SW brand here.” It can’t be that, as well as trying to burn down Star Wars traditions, at the same time. It’s trying to be so much more, and whether or not it succeeds in being a good movie is just a matter of opinion.

And while something can be said about how it uses an evil Empire and plucky rebellion, as well as TIEs, X-Wings, and lightsabers, that’s all superficial when what informs and drives those things are clearly different enough to not be “Star Wars” to many people thematically.

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Anchorhead said:

Collipso said:

I think that lots of criticism towards both movies upon release are the same, from what the link SilverWook provided tells and from what I can see of TLJ’s reaction.

However, some criticism towards TLJ isn’t about the moviemaking aspect. It’s about the literal core of the characters, with lots of people thinking Luke was ruined, or that Rey doesn’t obey the rules of the universe, etc etc.

And those complaints aren’t going away. They’re problems the audience has with the core of the movie, and I see it as different from the criticisms TESB received upon release.

Having lived through the release of Empire and not being a little kid at the time, I can say for sure that a lot of the criticisms were most certainly about the core and the characters themselves. In the interest of disclosure, I was very disappointed in how the characters of Vader and Han were handled.

Vader was morphed into something other than a second tier military officer and Han had become a good guy proper, not a scoundrel who did a nice thing. The final dagger was Vader as a family member. Lucas had altered both characters, to me, to the point where they were too different for me to care.

Interstingly enough TESB was the first Star Wars film I saw as a ten year old. When I watched Star Wars afterwards, the characters were less interesting to me, especially Vader. It wasn’t until I grew up, that I really began appreciating Star Wars on it’s own terms to the point, that it’s now my second favourite Star Wars film.

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 (Edited)

yotsuya said:

In real life there are two ways to acquire skills. First you find a teacher study work hard and grow your skills. The second way which is not uncommon, is that life gives you lessons and teaches you and forges your skills. In Star Wars the typical Jedi fashion is to find a teacher and learn and study. This is the root Luke takes. And then the quality of teaching is dependent on the quality of your teacher. We all know that Kenobi feels he was a bad teacher which is why Anakin fell. But in The Force Awakens we were introduced to Ray who’d grown up on the desert planet of Jakku. It was a hard life and she learned many lessons from it and gained many skills. This is a contrast to where we find Luke on Tatooine at his uncle’s Farm. He doesn’t appear to have learned many lessons and is woefully unprepared to be a Jedi. So in the course of the movies he has to be retrained. As Yoda said he has to unlearn what he has learned. This means the lessons he grew up with or the opposite of what he needed. That means the skills he learned in life or not what he needed to be a Jedi. But Rey on the other hand did learn the lessons she needed to become a Jedi from her life on Jakku. So the difference in training between the two goes back to the difference and backgrounds and the different skills that they acquired growing up and living their lives. Yoda had to correct things that Luke had wrong and consequently he could lift the X-Wing out of the swamp. He could barely lift stones. But Ray has no such doubts no such bad training. Instead she grew up with the right skills to tap into the force. I don’t know how you find her story inconsistent with the previous movies. It is there in the original trilogy. Luke had to be retrained. Ever tried to do that? That is 10 times harder than learning it in the first place.

And as I posted before, Ray does not pick up Force powers out of the blue. Everything she does she learns from Kylo Ren. She was already a skilled warrior with a staff when we meet her. She’s able to pick up a lightsaber and hold her own before kylo gives her the small lesson to tap into the force and a moment to do it. Andrea’s able to defeat him because of that moment Kylo Ren is not his full potential. Then in the Last Jedi when they face the praetorian guards you see the power difference between the two. Rey struggles to fight one on one but Kylo is fighting two or three at the same time and does much better. There’s a clear skill difference between the two and Kylo comes out on top.

I’ve only seen the movie twice so far but I have picked up on quite a few things. First off, Rey’s portrayal exactly matches her portrayal in The Force Awakens so any complaints about that have to be leveled at Abrams. I find that all the characters are very consistent with how Abrams treated them. For me Leia was the big Improvement by becoming a much stronger leader than we saw before. And given the backstory of Luke from The Force Awakens the Luke we are presented in this movie is right on target. Abrams made several critical mistakes and his movie by using his typical storytelling I’m leaving huge holes for someone else to fill. I think some of the difference in the way people take this movie is whether or not then like to Abrams did and wanted to see it answered, or didn’t like what he did and didn’t mind that it got thrown out the window. I don’t think Abrams is a good storyteller so I really didn’t care that all these things that he’s so carefully set up or thrown out. And really it was more the fans that hyped Rey’s parentage then the movie did. Her parents were left a mystery but Abraham said himself that her parents were not in the movie. So she was never going to be a Skywalker. And Kenobi was in the movie so she was never going to be a Kenobi. He really set it up that she was a nobody and just didn’t reveal that fact. And he’s the one who failed to reveal who Snoke was. Why was that even left a mystery? He’s the one who didn’t answer that question. He’s a bad Storyteller you don’t leave those questions to him to another Storyteller to answer, you answer them yourself. Was there any reason for Snoke to be a big mystery? No none. So the expectations that people have that weren’t met it’s Abrams fault. And now Abrams gets to come back and deal with the story is and come up with an ending. Something he sucks at. The only hope I see you for the next installment is a glimmer of hope that Lucas head outlined what the first side of the story was supposed to be and that Abrams follows it and has an ending.

To have two arguments that are going on are Abraham’s fault. If Rey is inconsistent with the original trilogy it’s his fault. If we don’t like where we find Luke in the story, it’s his fault. Well that one’s actually Lucas’s fault according to what I’m reading. Lucas said he was going to be an exile, Abrams went with that and establish the destruction of the Jedi Order and the fall of Ben Solo to Kylo Ren. So all almost all these arguments go back to the stupid things that Abraham’s did and we’re not paying the price because they were stupid. But everyone’s now blaming Rian Johnson because he’s trying to recover a good story from the junk that Abrams left behind. I found his slow chase to be much more interesting than the stupid Starkiller base. I found what he did to be much more intriguing I liked where he went with the characters and I like how he subverted what Abrams had started and did something that I felt was far more in keeping with the characters. So the quality of Rian Johnson story lies in he was true to the characters he was given. You may disagree about Luke and that’s fine, but I think he went in a great direction I felt like the Luke I saw was a direct offshoot of the Luke I grew up with. This whole Rey/Mary Sue argument really belongs in The Force Awakens thread because that’s where it started.

Some good points but I can’t agree with it all being Abrams fault. Luke in exile could have played out to be much more interesting. for example - maybe Snoke was getting inside Luke’s head and he realized he was not strong enough to resist him in part becuase he has seen too much darkness to truly believe in the light. Thus he exiled himself so he would not fall under Snokes power. When Rey comes, it gives ‘new hope’ that snoke can be defeated with Rey by his side or that Rey herself can bring balance back…

Then you cn build snoke up, give him a back story and give the Third movie some clear direction - defeat snoke.

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oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

I just wonder if oojason thinks the fight between Vader and Luke in ROTJ was a draw that was broken apart by the Emperor using force lightning.

If you’re wondering what I think about certain things you likely need to get a life mate.

Why are you angry with me? I am not the only one that thinks Rey won the fight against Ren.

Who said I was angry? That you spend time wondering about what I think about is a little sad, and also weird. You probably wouldn’t get it right anyway 😉

Plus, I don’t care that you are not the only one that thinks Rey won the fight vs Rey. Again, read my first post on it if it bothers you that much.

And try not to project context of one argument into other situations. It does your own point of view - nor yourself - much good.

Huh?

I haven’t mentioned Luke vs Vader in ROTJ at all - you taking my opinion on the Kylo vs Rey fight from TFA and putting it into the context of Luke vs Vader in ROTJ is doing just that.
 

If you think I’m spending any more time and effort going around with in circles on this, think on. I am not.
 

If you wish you can discuss this ‘TFA Rey vs Ren fight’ topic you can do so in the TFA thread - this part of the conversation has gone on long enough - and lost it’s context within TLJ - in a thread on TLJ.

The same for everyone else who wishes to continue with it.

Sheesh.

If you have a problem with any of that feel free to PM me about it.

I have done so.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.

I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.

Well to me deconstructing and understanding are two very different things. IMO TLJ deconstructs the themes of the previous films not to provide understanding, but to devalue them. It’s thesis is not just that these themes are far less relevant going forward, but that they weren’t all that important in the first place, punctuated by Yoda’s page turner remark. The fact that the legends of old are used (or abused depending on your point of view) to transmit this message, is also a clear attempt at devaluation, since even they are made to adhere to the new order, and to abandon much of their former beliefs, and ideals.

I think it’s disingenuous to say TLJ is an average blockbuster or that anything it has to say is on that level of Transformers, or Geostorm, or Avengers. If anything, it’s a little too heady for its own good. I definitely think it has pacing and tonal issues, as well as one too many plot threads that clearly have muddled what it was trying to say in the end, but its intentions and fundamental ideas have more depth than just “insert SW brand here.” It can’t be that, as well as trying to burn down Star Wars traditions, at the same time. It’s trying to be so much more, and whether or not it succeeds is just a matter of opinion.

And while something can be said about how it uses an evil Empire and plucky rebellion, as well as TIEs, X-Wings, and lightsabers, that’s all superficial when what informs and drives those things are clearly different enough to not be “Star Wars” to many people thematically.

Yes, but the whole point is, that the general audience doesn’t care about the themes that drove Star Wars in the past. In my view the current owners of the franchise feel Star Wars’ themes and connections to the past are a stumbling block for the general audience to connect with the material. In order to facilitate the growth of the potential market of these films, these themes and historic connections need to be simplified or removed. Star Wars is to be molded in the image of other franchises like the MCU universe, where connections between films are superficial at best. Anyone can watch a future MCU film, and enjoy them on their own terms, without having seen past entries. So will it be for Star Wars.

Author
Time

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.

I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.

Well to me deconstructing and understanding are two very different things. IMO TLJ deconstructs the themes of the previous films not to provide understanding, but to devalue them. It’s thesis is not just that these themes are far less relevant going forward, but that they weren’t all that important in the first place, punctuated by Yoda’s page turner remark. The fact that the legends of old are used (or abused depending on your point of view) to transmit this message is also in of itself a clear attempt at devaluation, since even they are made to adhere to the new order.

I think it’s disingenuous to say TLJ is an average blockbuster or that anything it has to say is on that level of Transformers, or Geostorm, or Avengers. If anything, it’s a little too heady for its own good. I definitely think it has pacing and tonal issues, as well as one too many plot threads that clearly have muddled what it was trying to say in the end, but its intentions and fundamental ideas have more depth than just “insert SW brand here.” It can’t be that, as well as trying to burn down Star Wars traditions, at the same time. It’s trying to be so much more, and whether or not it succeeds is just a matter of opinion.

And while something can be said about how it uses an evil Empire and plucky rebellion, as well as TIEs, X-Wings, and lightsabers, that’s all superficial when what informs and drives those things are clearly different enough to not be “Star Wars” to many people thematically.

Yes, but the whole point is, that the general audience doesn’t care about the themes that drove Star Wars in the past. In my view the current owners of the franchise feel Star Wars’ themes and connections to the past are a stumbling block for the general audience to connect with the material. In order to facilitate the growth of the potential market of these films, these themes and historic connections need to be simplified or removed.

Then the people running the franchise are DUMB. My kids, nieces and nephews all love the OT more than anything that came after, they were born 30+ years after ANH, yet they love it. I had 5-year-old ask “why luke doing that?”. They don’t need to worry about growing the audience, and ignoring what made the franchise so popular is not the way to do it.

Disney should know better. Look at the lineups they have for crappy rides that have been around for 60 years. Why? they still work and multigenerations experienced them in their youth and enjoy seeing their kids enjoy them.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

At first I didn’t understand why TLJ left so little story threads for future entries, feeling more like the final act of a story, than the middle one. In the context of what I wrote above it makes perfect sense. Future Star Wars movies won’t have these connective tissues like in the past, because it prevents the general audience from connecting with it, or worse even go and see it, since they need to have seen the previous entries to fully appreciate the new film. TLJ has eliminated that problem.

Author
Time

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.

I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.

Well to me deconstructing and understanding are two very different things. IMO TLJ deconstructs the themes of the previous films not to provide understanding, but to devalue them. It’s thesis is not just that these themes are far less relevant going forward, but weren’t all that important in the first place, punctuated by Yoda’s page turner remark. The fact that the legends of old are used (or abused depending on your point of view) to transmit this message is also in of itself a clear attempt at devaluation, since evdn they are made to adhere to the new order.

I think it’s disingenuous to say TLJ is an average blockbuster or that anything it has to say is on that level of Transformers, or Geostorm, or Avengers. If anything, it’s a little too heady for its own good. I definitely think it has pacing and tonal issues, as well as one too many plot threads that clearly have muddled what it was trying to say in the end, but its intentions and fundamental ideas have more depth than just “insert SW brand here.” It can’t be that, as well as trying to burn down Star Wars traditions, at the same time. It’s trying to be so much more, and whether or not it succeeds is just a matter of opinion.

And while something can be said about how it uses an evil Empire and plucky rebellion, as well as TIEs, X-Wings, and lightsabers, that’s all superficial when what informs and drives those things are clearly different enough to not be “Star Wars” to many people thematically.

Yes, but the whole point is, that the general audience doesn’t care about the themes that drove Star Wars in the past. In my view the current owners of the franchise feel Star Wars’ themes and connections to the past is a stumbling block for the general audience to connect with the material.

Ever try to read some of those Old Testament books? Also real page Turners. Yoda’s comment was on the dryness of the texts that Rey had already taken.

The Luke we have in TLJ is a classic archetype. An old warrior who doesn’t want to help the hero. The fallen hero. Based on the previously seen character traits, his present mental state makes perfect sense. The events given are in character as is the reaction to those events. You can even see a glimmer of hope in his action - seeking out the first Jedi lore. Luke was not as grown up as some think in ROTJ. And he’d had so little training compared to the Republic Era Jedi. And he needed it because he didn’t gave the right mental outlook. In TLJ, Yoda even reminds him of one of his old warnings/teachings. And when Rey finds him, he us not connected to the force. He doesn’t know Han is dead, so when Rey fights him, she isn’t fighting a Jedi Master at o e with the force, she is fighting a man cut off from the force while she daws on it. Of course she bested him. The clues are all in the movies. Watch 4, 5, 6, and 7 again and see if I am not right. Then watch TLJ again and see if things don’t make more sense.

Author
Time

DrDre said:

At first I didn’t understand why TLJ left so little story threads for future entries, feeling more like the final act of a story, than the middle one. In the context of what I wrote above it makes perfect sense. Future Star Wars movies won’t have these connective tissues like in the past, because it prevents the general audience from connecting with it, or worse even go and see it, since they need to have seen the previous entries to fully appreciate the new film. TLJ has eliminated that problem.

Why though? EVERYONE has seen Star Wars, and if they have not they are going to go see a new SW movie.

Author
Time

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.

I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.

Well to me deconstructing and understanding are two very different things. IMO TLJ deconstructs the themes of the previous films not to provide understanding, but to devalue them. It’s thesis is not just that these themes are far less relevant going forward, but weren’t all that important in the first place, punctuated by Yoda’s page turner remark. The fact that the legends of old are used (or abused depending on your point of view) to transmit this message is also in of itself a clear attempt at devaluation, since evdn they are made to adhere to the new order.

I think it’s disingenuous to say TLJ is an average blockbuster or that anything it has to say is on that level of Transformers, or Geostorm, or Avengers. If anything, it’s a little too heady for its own good. I definitely think it has pacing and tonal issues, as well as one too many plot threads that clearly have muddled what it was trying to say in the end, but its intentions and fundamental ideas have more depth than just “insert SW brand here.” It can’t be that, as well as trying to burn down Star Wars traditions, at the same time. It’s trying to be so much more, and whether or not it succeeds is just a matter of opinion.

And while something can be said about how it uses an evil Empire and plucky rebellion, as well as TIEs, X-Wings, and lightsabers, that’s all superficial when what informs and drives those things are clearly different enough to not be “Star Wars” to many people thematically.

Yes, but the whole point is, that the general audience doesn’t care about the themes that drove Star Wars in the past. In my view the current owners of the franchise feel Star Wars’ themes and connections to the past is a stumbling block for the general audience to connect with the material.

Ever try to read some of those Old Testament books? Also real page Turners. Yoda’s comment was on the dryness of the texts that Rey had already taken.

The Luke we have in TLJ is a classic archetype. An old warrior who doesn’t want to help the hero. The fallen hero. Based on the previously seen character traits, his present mental state makes perfect sense. The events given are in character as is the reaction to those events. You can even see a glimmer of hope in his action - seeking out the first Jedi lore. Luke was not as grown up as some think in ROTJ. And he’d had so little training compared to the Republic Era Jedi. And he needed it because he didn’t gave the right mental outlook. In TLJ, Yoda even reminds him of one of his old warnings/teachings. And when Rey finds him, he us not connected to the force. He doesn’t know Han is dead, so when Rey fights him, she isn’t fighting a Jedi Master at o e with the force, she is fighting a man cut off from the force while she daws on it. Of course she bested him. The clues are all in the movies. Watch 4, 5, 6, and 7 again and see if I am not right. Then watch TLJ again and see if things don’t make more sense.

I’ve seen all of them many, many times. TLJ is filled with subliminal messages many of them connected to Kylo’s kill the past remark. You may not believe me now, but wait a few years, and you will notice a striking similarity with how future Star Wars films are set up, and the workings of the MCU universe, Disney’s greatest cash cow. Don’t get me wrong, I really like the MCU universe, but much of what set Star Wars apart from the other major franchises will be lost.