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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 113

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[DominicCobb said:]

  1. She did not beat Luke in that duel

[DrDre said:]
So, Luke wasn’t put on his back with Rey grabbing and pointing a lightsaber at him? I think she had the high ground, a sure win in the Star Wars universe since 2005. :p

LOL!

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Matt.F said:

I’d be interested in peoples thoughts on why Sci-Fi movies as a genre seem to attract the kind of ‘microscopic’ forensic analysis that other genres don’t.

As the link to the ESB letters page shows, and having lived the period myself, it has always been there. This desire to nitpick, and to pull at all the threads and cleverly say “Ha, I knew it, this is the one that causes it all to unravel!”.

Is it because sci-fi and fantasy fans are more intelligent and able to deconstruct films better than most?

Is it because they become more invested in the ‘universe’ of the movie and so it matters to them more than regular punters?

Is it because they’re socially awkward? That old stereotype, don’t feel assured in the real world and don’t feel assured around girls (we’ve seen that with the reaction to Rey and with the new Dr Who casting).

Is it because of the Prequels - ‘George Lucas raped my childhood’ - did that moment change geek fandom?

There are countless examples in this forum of people trying to pull at the threads and unravel The Last Jedi, and as a fan of the film I am trying not to be judgmental. I have also been on the other side, as I walked out of Attack Of The Clones having hated the photoshop aesthetic and I am sure I vented a bit on social media too.

Anyone have any insight? Why does this happen so purposefully in sci-fi / fantasy but not in other movie genres?

This is a good twitter thread on that subject.

https://twitter.com/bobbyrobertspdx/status/947149725232328709

Films are not wikipedia articles
Movies aren’t just plot delivery services

Their utility as such has sprung from a fandom that has sought to quantify their fandom as an achievement, the amassed trivia as currency, the flaunting of said currency of proof they “earned” that fandom

Fans love believing that enjoying mass entertainment is so much harder than it actually is, and the means of proving it by elevating points (both plot- and wikipedia-bullet-) to a position of importance that neglects basically EVERYTHING ELSE that goes into a story.

Combine that weird, almost miserly instinct towards storytelling, with a youtube & reddit-fed surge in highly rewarded dilettantism—a sort of hot-take game of slapjack, film criticism for people who hate film critics but love the sound of their own opinions—and you end up here.

A place where people who don’t understand movies loudly frame their narratives from this perspective: Movies are for competing against, not experiencing—a series of opportunities to crow about how they can’t FOOL YOU. Because you’re too SMART to fall for these SIMPLE TRICKS.

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 (Edited)

oojason said:

Right, yeah the screenplay - I didn’t see the edit for imsdb before posting.

Again, as you missed the part of my post where it says ‘you can even see it in the film, in case you need to go looking for more articles to prove what actually happened in the film… didn’t happen’

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJTz-ahXyyI (around 4m 15s in - though watch the whole fight if you wish to take into consideration the context in which my original posts mentioned)

^ Doesn’t seem that there’s any time for that before the planet breaks up (again, I may have already mentioned this before - and also linked to it before).

 

I really got to get to bed. G’night.

I have watched the fight many times, and each came to the same conclusion every other user here did. She won the fight.

Kylo who’s already seriously injured, and psychologically compromised, is quickly outmatched by Rey once she composes herself, and allows the Force to guide her actions. She disarms, injures him, and puts him on his back. He looks hurt, and totally bewildered, while she’s towering over him with her lightsaber. Then the ground splits between them.

This is how I read the scene since the first time I saw it. I also believe, this is the intented interpretation of the creators.

You obviously see it differently, even if you appear to be unique in this view.

Let’s agree to disagree.

G’afternoon, by the way…

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TV’s Frink said:

Good night OT dot com. Good work. Sleep well. I’ll most likely kill you in the morning.

Thankfully, I awoke from my sleep to find my uncle standing over me about to strike me down with a lightsabre - so thought ‘best not then’, and had a cup of coffee instead.

Plus, there’s always tomorrow…

😉

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 (Edited)

DrDre said:

oojason said:

Right, yeah the screenplay - I didn’t see the edit for imsdb before posting.

Again, as you missed the part of my post where it says ‘you can even see it in the film, in case you need to go looking for more articles to prove what actually happened in the film… didn’t happen’

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJTz-ahXyyI (around 4m 15s in - though watch the whole fight if you wish to take into consideration the context in which my original posts mentioned)

^ Doesn’t seem that there’s any time for that before the planet breaks up (again, I may have already mentioned this before - and also linked to it before).

 

I really got to get to bed. G’night.

I have watched the fight many times, and each came to the same conclusion every other user here did. She won the fight.

Kylo who’s already seriously injured, and psychologically compromised, is quickly outmatched by Rey once she composes herself, and allows the Force to guide her actions. She disarms, injures him, and puts him on his back. He looks hurt, and totally bewildered, while she’s towering over him with her lightsaber. Then the ground splits between them.

This is how I read the scene since the first time I saw it. I also believe, this is the intented interpretation of the creators.

You obviously see it differently, even if you appear to be unique in this view.

Let’s agree to disagree.

G’afternoon, by the way…

Seems we see it very much the same (my first post on this)…

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

When was this lightsabre fight?

In TFA.

You are referring to the sabre fight vs Ren in TFA - where he was already injured from Chewbacca’s powerful crossbow shot, was bleeding from it, also taking a hit from his sabre fight with Finn, and also felt conflicted & weak over just killing his father? In a fight in which the aim was not to kill Rey - but to bring her to Snoke… a fight in which he actually offered to be her teacher… and in which Rey was on the backfoot for nearly all of it before ‘letting the force in’…

Rey didn’t win the lightsabre fight at all… even after ‘letting the force in’ as it were - though she had gained the upper hand by scarring him & put him on his arse - yet the fight was broken up by the planet coming apart…
 

(apart from the ‘result’)

And, aye, we should agree to disagree on this. Good afternoon to your good self mate 😃

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The argument over whether Rey won her fight against Kylo in TFA is exactly the same as the argument over Luke force choking the guards at Jabba’s palace - until brought up, one could not imagine it possibly being seen any other way nor then understand how it is.

For me at least, it has always been clear as day that Luke force chokes the guards and that Rey won against Kylo. He’s lying vanquished on the ground before Rey for a minimum of 10 seconds before the ground even starts shaking. He was disarmed, laying wounded on the ground and in the context of the dual - defeated.

Anyway I can appreciate there are some that have an alternate view on these scenes but I don’t think I’ll ever understand how.

.Val

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How is this even a point of discussion? Rey clearly beat Kylo Ren at the end of TFA. I mean, maybe if you were watching the film with your eyes closed you’d think that but the visual language of the film, the score and what was going on in the plot all point toward the pretty damn obvious fact that Rey won.

<span style=“font-weight: bold;”>The Most Handsomest Guy on OT.com</span>

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I just wonder if oojason thinks the fight between Vader and Luke in ROTJ was a draw that was broken apart by the Emperor using force lightning.

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Warbler said:

I just wonder if oojason thinks the fight between Vader and Luke in ROTJ was a draw that was broken apart by the Emperor using force lightning.

If you’re wondering what I think about certain things you likely need to get a life mate.

And try not to project context of one argument into other situations. It does your own point of view - nor yourself - much good.

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Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

brash_stryker said:

I can’t believe this is even being disputed.

Have you missed the force choke discussion?

This beats the force choke debate by a mile.

Well of course you think that. :p

But you’re right, because as far as I can tell, that debate had three or four people out of everyone on the wrong side, instead of one person out of everyone on the wrong side. 😉

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adywan said:

The difference between now and then is that most of the time you were discussing SW, you were discussing it face to face. Now the anonymity of hiding behind a keyboard, along with the change in society, just brings out the more vapid side of the fandom.

You mean like this?

GrandMaster88 said:

Wow what a terrible movie!! It genuinely felt like a middle finger to the fans!! Sooooo disappointed with what they did to Luke! I have already started to rewrite it the way I would’ve done it. How could Everyone involved in this film have missed the mark so massively???

I’m actually starting to enjoy how many people think “Disney Ruined Star Wars.” Go Disney!

JEDIT: To be clear, I don’t enjoy that people were disappointed in the movie. I enjoy the extreme overreactions.

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greenpenguino said:

How is this even a point of discussion? Rey clearly beat Kylo Ren at the end of TFA. I mean, maybe if you were watching the film with your eyes closed you’d think that but the visual language of the film, the score and what was going on in the plot all point toward the pretty damn obvious fact that Rey won.

Go back and watch the Ali V Foreman fight from 1974 - the Rumble in the Jungle. If the earth had parted somewhere in the 6th or early 7th round you would say Foreman won the fight, but Ali’s plan was to let Foreman think he was winning and tire him out - the old ‘rope a dope’. Ali, it turns out was in complete control of the fight despite what it looked like.

Cleary Kylo went for the ‘Rope a Dope.’ Given Kylo is a direct descendant of a human from future earth he may even know the Ali story and used it as inspiration.

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Lol…although how is he a descendant of a human from future earth? I thought that was Jabba.

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Warbler said:

joefavs said:

This is the first time in my 28 years that I’ve even seen it suggested that Luke could’ve been doing anything other than choking the guards. I had no idea there was any disagreement at all about that.

This is the first time in the 34 years since the movie came out that I have heard he was force choking the guards. I must have watched ROTJ millions of times and never got that idea.

How could you not have known this? They very obviously clutch at their throats. And it is an example of how Luke is getting closer to turning to the Dark Side.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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TV’s Frink said:

Lol…although how is he a descendant of a human from future earth? I thought that was Jabba.

I am glad you got a chuckle as that was my intent…

There was SW book that followed a group of 5000 humans from Earth in the 25th Century who fall into a black hole or some other plot device and end up in a galaxy far away in a time long long (long) ago. The first Solo was part of the 5000 humans. The humans then go on to populate the galaxy and are the source of all human we see in SW.

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I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

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Porkins4real said:

TV’s Frink said:

Lol…although how is he a descendant of a human from future earth? I thought that was Jabba.

I am glad you got a chuckle as that was my intent…

There was SW book that followed a group of 5000 humans from Earth in the 25th Century who fall into a black hole or some other plot device and end up in a galaxy far away in a time long long (long) ago. The first Solo was part of the 5000 humans. The humans then go on to populate the galaxy and are the source of all human we see in SW.

Oh my god.

See, this right here is why I don’t consider the EU valid.

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Luke: “Is the dark side stronger?”
Yoda: “No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.”

In TLJ Rey takes the path of the dark side in that she gets Force powers too easily, while Kylo Ren has trained his whole life, which is more of the original concept for the light side. The light and dark side’s have literally been inverted in the new trilogy, where the light path is actually the dark side, and the dark path is actually the light side.

said some guy on the interweb

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Jeebus said:

I agree that Rey won the fight. Not that it means anything, though; because it was established that Kylo was an emotional and physical wreck that was completely unfit to fight anyone.

This is how I saw it as well. He just killed his dad, was hit by a bowcaster and his planet base is blowing up. Rey is much more than we know imo.

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DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

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Porkins4real said:

Luke: “Is the dark side stronger?”
Yoda: “No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.”

In TLJ Rey takes the path of the dark side in that she gets Force powers too easily, while Kylo Ren has trained his whole life, which is more of the original concept for the light side. The light and dark side’s have literally been inverted in the new trilogy, where the light path is actually the dark side, and the dark path is actually the light side.

said some guy on the interweb

I don’t see how this makes any sense at all.

Yoda was talking about choosing the quicker, easier path. Running off to save your friends before you’re ready, for instance. Rey had no choice to make the way Luke did - she was ready. Even if you think she didn’t struggle enough, you can’t blame her for that.

You’re really stretching to prove this movie got everything wrong.

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Creox said:

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.

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oojason said:

Warbler said:

I just wonder if oojason thinks the fight between Vader and Luke in ROTJ was a draw that was broken apart by the Emperor using force lightning.

If you’re wondering what I think about certain things you likely need to get a life mate.

Why are you angry with me? I am not the only one that thinks Rey won the fight against Ren.

And try not to project context of one argument into other situations. It does your own point of view - nor yourself - much good.

Huh?