The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 103

Porkins4real said:

TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

she is wrong about there being a male equivalent.

No she’s not but this was beaten to absolute death when TFA came out so there’s no reason for anyone to go on about it yet again.

The term ‘Gary Stu’ has been around for at least 10 years.

And no one ever uses it unless Mary Sue is brought up, like I already said. The problem isn’t the terms themselves, it’s the unequal usage of them.

Last I’ll say on the subject. As I already said, this has not just been beaten to death previously, it’s been mashed into a fine pulp. Not to mention Jay posted that no more politics were allowed in here.

Matt.F said:

Dre, I should be really clear I am not calling you a misogynist. But I am calling you ‘naive’ for thinking that it doesn’t exist in geek culture, and that the character of Rey specifically has brought it out of the woodwork.

I never denied, it exists in geek culture. I’ve read most of the articles, and I’m against such practices. I just don’t understand why you would bring it into a discussion about Rey’s character, which thusfar was completely dominated by her character traits, and the way her character progressed in the films, not about the fact that she’s a girl?

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

The explanation is chewie had just shot kylo ren with his crossbow and he was quite injured. You can even see blood falling out of his suit in several shots.

Sorry, I don’t buy it. Yeah he was injured, but it was still someone trained against someone untrained.

Obviously the only way to test this is for you to go get trained in the Force, dahmaged will shoot you in the side, and then you and I will have a lightsaber fight. Let’s do this.

dahmage said:

Porkins4real said:

An actors opinion of their character and the reviews they get is hardly the end all be all.

I actually agree with this. And even though I really like a lot of what Mark Hamill says it’s also why I don’t really care if he actually does feel one way or the other about the Last Jedi.

Lol, thanks for pointing the inconsistency in the “Mark knows Luke better than you guys who liked Luke in TLJ” argument.

Rey is a Mary Sue only if you consider that she does everything without any kind of training. So to believe this you have to actively ignore that all her knowledge about technology and ships comes from years living in Scrap World where it’s all there is to learn about. Then you have to also ignore that all her Force knowledge comes from things she’s heard (you can lift rocks) or witnesses (thanks to Kylo Ren). Then you also have to ignore that she “beat” him even though (A) he thinks a lightsaber is something to break TV screens with and (B) he was bleeding out/not trying to win.

The actual “awakening” is a bit iffy but I like the Yin-Yang idea. Then she goes and hands Kylo the First Order leadership on a plate because of her own naive beliefs which is a massively stupid thing to do, but she heard somewhere that people can be “turned” good. I kinda like Rey.

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

The explanation is chewie had just shot kylo ren with his crossbow and he was quite injured. You can even see blood falling out of his suit in several shots.

Sorry, I don’t buy it. Yeah he was injured, but it was still someone trained against someone untrained.

Obviously the only way to test this is for you to go get trained in the Force, dahmaged will shoot you in the side, and then you and I will have a lightsaber fight. Let’s do this.

^ silly.

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

The explanation is chewie had just shot kylo ren with his crossbow and he was quite injured. You can even see blood falling out of his suit in several shots.

Sorry, I don’t buy it. Yeah he was injured, but it was still someone trained against someone untrained.

Obviously the only way to test this is for you to go get trained in the Force, dahmaged will shoot you in the side, and then you and I will have a lightsaber fight. Let’s do this.

^ silly.

Let me know when you come up with a better way to prove you’re right and I’m wrong about that scene.

DrDre said:
Star Wars universe Wonder Woman, having discovered insta-Force.

Sorry Frink I didn’t mean to open up old wounds and rekindle the Mary Sue debate, I myself was responding to Dre’s comment above. That comment launched it. I don’t like the Mary Sue criticism, I think its tedious and it is emboldening a certain unsavoury section of fandom that I would rather not embolden.

Mocata said:

Rey is a Mary Sue only if you consider that she does everything without any kind of training. So to believe this you have to actively ignore that all her knowledge about technology and ships comes from years living in Scrap World where it’s all there is to learn about. Then you have to also ignore that all her Force knowledge comes from things she’s heard (you can lift rocks) or witnesses (thanks to Kylo Ren). Then she goes and hands Kylo the First Order leadership on a plate because of her own naive beliefs which is a massively stupid thing to do, but she heard somewhere that people can be “turned” good. I kinda like Rey.

Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument. The criticism is, that she is too perfect, and the progress in her knowledge of the Force too fast and easy, compared to earlier protagonists, and some of the better protagonists in fiction in general. I think those critics have a point, even if I don’t agree with everyone of them. I’ve defended Rey’s progression in TFA, but now feel her character has stalled in TLJ, while gaining Force powers exponentially.

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

When was this lightsabre fight?

In TFA.

You are referring to the sabre fight vs Ren in TFA - where he was already injured from Chewbacca’s powerful crossbow shot, was bleeding from it, also taking a hit from his sabre fight with Finn, and also felt conflicted & weak over just killing his father? In a fight in which the aim was not to kill Rey - but to bring her to Snoke… a fight in which he actually offered to be her teacher… and in which Rey was on the backfoot for nearly all of it before ‘letting the force in’…

Rey didn’t win the lightsabre fight at all… even after ‘letting the force in’ as it were - though she had gained the upper hand by scarring him & put him on his arse - yet the fight was broken up by the planet coming apart…

Um, she did win the fight. The only reason he survived or wasn’t taken prisoner is because of the planet coming apart.

 

She may well be special and strong with the force - Snoke’s on-screen ascertain to Rey that… ‘So much strength. Darkness rises and light to meet it’ & ‘I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger that the equal in the light would rise’ (and his mistaken assumption that was Luke - not Rey) is a statement of this. That you choose to ignore this as an explanation is on you.

As I said, I buy that explanation because this thing of the equal of the light rising wasn’t shown or referred to in any of the other movies.

TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

she is wrong about there being a male equivalent.

No she’s not but this was beaten to absolute death when TFA came out so there’s no reason for anyone to go on about it yet again (including Matt.F who brought it up this time IIRC). It’s all been said already.

But since you asked:

Porkins4real said:

Not sure what the issue is then???

The issue is unequal treatment of equal male and female characters.

That is a pretty big topic. Are we talking all Star Wars? All movies, just this movie etc etc ? How do you come up with ‘equal’ characters?

I think Rey has been much better received then Anakin, despite them both having similar flaws in how they were written. I think Luke’s Character in TLJ is much more criticised than Rey.

I am not sure what is wrong with me wanting Rey to be a better character is? Just because she is female am I suppose to ignore the flaws?

Matt.F said:

DrDre said:
Star Wars universe Wonder Woman, having discovered insta-Force.

Sorry Frink I didn’t mean to open up old wounds and rekindle the Mary Sue debate, I myself was responding to Dre’s comment above. That comment launched it. I don’t like the Mary Sue stuff, I think its tedious and it is emboldening a certain section of fandom that I would rather not embolden.

Yeah, Wonder Woman is a DC super hero. I could hardly call her Superman, since she is…a woman. I don’t like my Star Wars protagonists to be super heroes, who like Spider-Man, who was bitten by a radio-active spider, instantly gets super human powers. I call that insta-Force. I want my Star Wars protagonists to work for it, and struggle. It has nothing to do with her being a woman. That’s something you brought into the discussion.

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

The explanation is chewie had just shot kylo ren with his crossbow and he was quite injured. You can even see blood falling out of his suit in several shots.

Sorry, I don’t buy it. Yeah he was injured, but it was still someone trained against someone untrained.

Obviously the only way to test this is for you to go get trained in the Force, dahmaged will shoot you in the side, and then you and I will have a lightsaber fight. Let’s do this.

^ silly.

Let me know when you come up with a better way to prove you’re right and I’m wrong about that scene.

Let me know when lightsabers and the force become real and then we’ll see.

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

DrDre said:
I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

I’m sorry too.

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

When was this lightsabre fight?

In TFA.

You are referring to the sabre fight vs Ren in TFA - where he was already injured from Chewbacca’s powerful crossbow shot, was bleeding from it, also taking a hit from his sabre fight with Finn, and also felt conflicted & weak over just killing his father? In a fight in which the aim was not to kill Rey - but to bring her to Snoke… a fight in which he actually offered to be her teacher… and in which Rey was on the backfoot for nearly all of it before ‘letting the force in’…

Rey didn’t win the lightsabre fight at all… even after ‘letting the force in’ as it were - though she had gained the upper hand by scarring him & put him on his arse - yet the fight was broken up by the planet coming apart…

Um, she did win the fight. The only reason he survived or wasn’t taken prisoner is because of the planet coming apart.

No, he’s just on his arse. There was no winner due to the planet coming apart.

 

She may well be special and strong with the force - Snoke’s on-screen ascertain to Rey that… ‘So much strength. Darkness rises and light to meet it’ & ‘I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger that the equal in the light would rise’ (and his mistaken assumption that was Luke - not Rey) is a statement of this. That you choose to ignore this as an explanation is on you.

As I said, I buy that explanation because this thing of the equal of the light rising wasn’t shown or referred to in any of the other movies.

Things evolve and change over the course of these films - that they aren’t mentioned or shown previously does not negate them. That it is mentioned on-screen - whether you agree, dislike, or ‘buy’ it - does not negate it.

If you want to ignore an explanation then go ahead and ignore it - but don’t then state there wasn’t one / or that it then ‘begs for an explanation’.

Well if the explanation is argued to make no sense in the context of what came before or to be underdeveloped, than it does negate the explanation in the eyes of the beholder. That’s what we’re debating here I think.

SilverWook said:

DrDre said:

Matt.F said:

I disagree Dre, the movie shows several moments where Rey is associated with the dark side…

Please point those moments out to me, because I didn’t see any serious struggle or temptation, and there certainly were no serious consequences for Rey, as there were for Luke.

and even moments where Kylo is with the light. It also goes deeper into nuance by having the mentor figure grapple also with his past failure and his present opportunity.

The moments with Kylo were mostly undercut by Snoke’s admission, that he was manipulating Rey, as such we don’t know what was real, and what wasn’t. The single most powerful moment was, when Kylo couldn’t kill his mother, but as with Rey it was without consequence, as the theme wasn’t revisited in the film. Leia just accepted her son was lost without so much as a confrontation, killing an interesting story thread about Ben Solo’s relationship with his parents, a relationship that had led to particide. However, like so many set ups of TFA RJ decided to mostly ignore that.

You don’t think Ben killing his father wasn’t a factor in that acceptance?

It might, but the movie just glossed over it in my view. It wasn’t much of a story thread in the film, despite the fact that it supposedly played an important part in Kylo’s development in TFA. Kylo states he didn’t hate his father to Rey, but doesn’t really address the issue afterwards. It isn’t much of an issue to Rey either after that one confrintation. There’s no confrontation between mother and son. I felt it was handled in an unsatisfactory manner.

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

Given Mark Hammill believes Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.