Sign In

Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 158

Author
Time

Just a few thoughts. These may sound negative on the surface, but I choose to see them as a way too not take everything so seriously. We can show people respect while criticizing their ideas and opinions. Just remember to keep it about the idea not the person, and understand when people question what you think, they are not insulting you.

[QUOTE] “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others."[/QUOTE] - Douglas Adams

[QUOTE]“You’ve gotta respect everyone’s beliefs." No, you don’t. That’s what gets us in trouble. Look, you have to acknowledge everyone’s beliefs, and then you have to reserve the right to go: “That is stupid. Are you kidding me?” I acknowledge that you believe that, that’s great, but I’m not going to respect it. I have an uncle that believes he saw Sasquatch. We do not believe him.”[/QUOTE] - Patton Oswalt

So taking that into consideration, it is obvious some of you just simply don’t understand what you’re talking about while I certainly do, but I hope you all are having a wonderful holiday season.

:p:D

Author
Time
 (Edited)

A couple of intriguing and insightful videos on the character of Rey - and her place in the Sequel story… (without mentions of supposed Mary Sue-ness or ‘overpowering’ - which makes for a welcome change)

Who Are You? Analyzing Rey - Part One’: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jFfL1wmdBw

Understanding Rey’s connection to The Force - Who Are You? - Part Two’: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y64DcPwyfLY

^ both from the AT-AT Chat video channel (with a quality ‘AdmiralPiettLives’ handle on their instagram 😃)
 

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here?
And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

Author
Time
 (Edited)

I have a question concerning those who enjoyed TLJ. I’d honestly like to hear your POV and don’t want to start a debate.

One thing that has bothered me is how TLJ handles sacrifices. Early on Paige sacrifices herself, and it is seen as a heroic act. Later Holdo sacrifices herself and it is seen as an epic inspiring event.

But near the end, Finn attempts to sacrifice himself but is stopped. It’s here where Rose says it’s not about destroying what we hate, but saving what we love. As she says this, the door explodes in the background making it feels like a HISHE for me.

My point of confusion is, how is Holdo’s sacrifice any different to Finn’s? I can see how Luke’s standoff fits into the theme, but am confused regarding Holdo. Both characters- Finn and Holdo- had to destroy an enemy weapon to save what they loved.

I wonder if I am missing something. Does anyone have any opinions on the topic of sacrifice in TLJ?

Vader, a 7 in 1 edit of the entire Star Wars Saga

Maul, a clone wars edit

Author
Time

I think the implication was that Finn either A) would have been killed before reaching the weapon, or B) wouldn’t have been able to affect the weapon even if he’d made it. So his “sacrifice” wouldn’t have helped anyone at all, it would’ve just been Finn throwing his life away to get some measure of vengeance against the First Order.

It’s something that wasn’t communicated too well, though, assuming that was in fact the intention.

a trolling bantha

Author
Time
 (Edited)

ChainsawAsh said:

I think the implication was that Finn either A) would have been killed before reaching the weapon, or B) wouldn’t have been able to affect the weapon even if he’d made it. So his “sacrifice” wouldn’t have helped anyone at all, it would’ve just been Finn throwing his life away to get some measure of vengeance against the First Order.

This is my opinion as well.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Yes, the scene tries to make it clear to the audience that Finn was going to fail. Both Poe and Rose say it’s not going to work. As Finn is making his final approach, he says, “weapons hot”, implying he needs to shoot inside of it in order to possibly destroy it. As he gets close, though, the cannons on his skimmer bend and melt off. Finn gives it a look of acceptance, seems like he has realized he is going to die.

So even though it might seem weird that the door blows up while Rose and Finn kiss, that was inevitable regardless if Finn died or not. But at least Finn didn’t throw his life away, and there’s still a chance he might make it out of this alive.

I’m not disagreeing though that maybe they could have done one extra thing to make that 100% clear, because there are still people who say, “Well maybe Finn crashing inside of it could have been enough to stop it”. The movie implies it won’t work by focusing on the skimmer’s guns. I’ve suggested this over on the fan edit threads, but if an AT-AT locked onto Finn near the last moment, and Rose knocked him out of the way just in time of an oncoming laser blast, I think it would have made it definitively clear for people.

Although this also overlooks the fact that there must be a smaller entryway through the trenches as well, since Poe and the other pilots apparently got back in without opening the door, and the same goes for all of the soldiers who were in the trenches when the First Order showed up. So the First Order getting into the base was inevitable, but defending potentially one small door could buy them more time for rescue than having to defending a massive hole in the wall.

Now, what makes Finn’s attempted sacrifice different from Paige or Holdo’s. The movie sets these sacrifices apart in two ways.
First, Paige and Holdo’s deaths are painted as inevitable. Both Paige and Holdo were going to die regardless of what they did. Paige was on near-destroyed bomber, and Holdo was on a ship running on fumes and “tied to the end of a string”. Finn, on the other hand, could have turned around and tried to survive. It wasn’t his only option.

Another way these sacrifices were differentiated was by mindset. One of the last things we see Paige do before she dies is clutch onto her necklace, implying that saving her sister is what is driving her to do this. She is driven by love.

Before the transports depart the Raddus, Leia and Holdo have a very personal goodbye and hold onto each other’s hands tightly. Holdo loves Leia and the Resistance.

Finn on at least two occasions shows that he isn’t necessarily driven by love or compassion. After the Fathier chase, Finn states, “It was worth it. To tear up that town. Make them hurt.” Which Rose replies by removing the saddle off of the Fathier and send it running off to freedom, then saying, “Now it’s worth it.” This illustrates how Finn and Rose are motivated by two different mindsets. Motivated by hate versus love.

During the Battle of Crait, when Poe orders Finn to retreat with Rose agreeing, Finn retorts with, “No! I won’t let them win!” Finn at this point seems driven by hate for the First Order, and it sort of made him oblivious to his death being unecessary. It also kind of culminates Rose’s story as well. She wasn’t able to save Paige, someone she loved, but she could save Finn, someone she has grown to care for. She doesn’t want Finn to die for something that’s not guaranteed to work, and she doesn’t want him to die for revenge.

The movie is trying to demonstrate a message about how the motivating force that drives our actions in everyday life can have a huge effect on ourselves. Acting out of love and compassion rather than hate and anger can make us more well-rounded people. Sort of like how hate and revenge can just be a viscious cycle, whereas love and forgiveness are better paths to healing.

But within the film, I also personally believe this lesson will have implications into Finn’s storyline in IX, but I won’t go into that here.

There are probably essays that describe this better than I have. Just my two cents.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Paige’s sacrifice is actually an important point of comparison. She destroys the dreadnaught, yes, but the Resistance has lost all their bombers (plus many other fighters), so was it actually worth it? I tend to think even if Finn did destroy the battering ram, it wouldn’t have been worth much. That’s just one weapon, look at the rest of the First Order fire power at hand. The Resistance plan to hold out in that base probably only worked if they didn’t know they were there. Poe’s plan to destroy the cannon mirror’s his plan to destroy the dreadnaught - taking out something very destructive yes, but ultimately the smarter decision is to know when it’s time to cut your losses and get the fuck out of there before you lose all your people on a suicide mission.

That’s basically the distinction, between fruitless suicide mission and noble sacrifice. The film isn’t suggesting that sacrifices never work, you just have to know when it’s worth it. Both Holdo and Luke had no choice. Holdo has to stay behind to pilot the cruiser and was going to die anyway. She would have likely gone out peacefully if the remaining Resistance didn’t need help in that very moment. Same as Luke. Snoke found out where he was from Rey so there’s a decent chance the First Order was already on the way to destroy the island. Luke was obviously prepared to die without putting up a fight, but realized ultimately how much he was needed.

It’s essentially two different equations.

Author
Time

DominicCobb said:

Paige’s sacrifice is actually an important point of comparison. She destroys the dreadnaught, yes, but the Resistance has lost all their bombers (plus many other fighters), so was it actually worth it? I tend to think even if Finn did destroy the battering ram, it wouldn’t have been worth much. That’s just one weapon, look at the rest of the First Order fire power at hand. The Resistance plan to hold out in that base probably only worked if they didn’t know they were there. Poe’s plan to destroy the cannon mirror’s his plan to destroy the dreadnaught - taking out something very destructive yes, but ultimately the smarter decision is to know when it’s time to cut your losses and get the fuck out of there before you lose all your people on a suicide mission.

That’s basically the distinction, between fruitless suicide mission and noble sacrifice. The film isn’t suggesting that sacrifices never work, you just have to know when it’s worth it. Both Holdo and Luke had no choice. Holdo has to stay behind to pilot the cruiser and was going to die anyway. She would have likely gone out peacefully if the remaining Resistance didn’t need help in that very moment. Same as Luke. Snoke found out where he was from Rey so there’s a decent chance the First Order was already on the way to destroy the island. Luke was obviously prepared to die without putting up a fight, but realized ultimately how much he was needed.

It’s essentially two different equations.

Who’s to say that Finn’s sacrifice wouldn’t have been worth it? My assumption was that Finn’s intention from the start of his run was to kamikaze his ship into the cannon. Would it have been fruitless? Possibly, but the movie failed to make it clear that it would have been fruitless. Also in saving Finn, Rose could have easily killed both of them with zero upside.

So if the message we’re supposed to take away from this is: Sacrifice is sometimes worth it, but you just have to weigh the cost/benefit depending on your specific situation–it’s not a very strong or clear message, especially for a Star Wars movie. This kind of goes along with a general trend in this movie of presenting a idea or message that should be simple and muddling it due to what I can only chalk up to poor execution.

Not that the movie is poorly executed in general. Much of it is fantastic. I simultaneously love and am frustrated by this film.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

pleasehello said:

DominicCobb said:

Paige’s sacrifice is actually an important point of comparison. She destroys the dreadnaught, yes, but the Resistance has lost all their bombers (plus many other fighters), so was it actually worth it? I tend to think even if Finn did destroy the battering ram, it wouldn’t have been worth much. That’s just one weapon, look at the rest of the First Order fire power at hand. The Resistance plan to hold out in that base probably only worked if they didn’t know they were there. Poe’s plan to destroy the cannon mirror’s his plan to destroy the dreadnaught - taking out something very destructive yes, but ultimately the smarter decision is to know when it’s time to cut your losses and get the fuck out of there before you lose all your people on a suicide mission.

That’s basically the distinction, between fruitless suicide mission and noble sacrifice. The film isn’t suggesting that sacrifices never work, you just have to know when it’s worth it. Both Holdo and Luke had no choice. Holdo has to stay behind to pilot the cruiser and was going to die anyway. She would have likely gone out peacefully if the remaining Resistance didn’t need help in that very moment. Same as Luke. Snoke found out where he was from Rey so there’s a decent chance the First Order was already on the way to destroy the island. Luke was obviously prepared to die without putting up a fight, but realized ultimately how much he was needed.

It’s essentially two different equations.

Who’s to say that Finn’s sacrifice wouldn’t have been worth it? My assumption was that Finn’s intention from the start of his run was to kamikaze his ship into the cannon. Would it have been fruitless? Possibly, but the movie failed to make it clear that it would have been fruitless. Also in saving Finn, Rose could have easily killed both of them with zero upside.

I didn’t get the sense that Finn was always going to kamikaze, I can’t figure where that’d come from. He wasn’t the only one going out there, there were a bunch of skimmers (if he was going to kamikaze while they were attacking, that’s probably info he should have let them know). Finn only seems to make that decision when the rest back off and he’s left by himself and without working guns.

So if the message we’re supposed to take away from this is: Sacrifice is sometimes worth it, but you just have to weigh the cost/benefit depending on your specific situation–it’s not a very strong or clear message, especially for a Star Wars movie. This kind of goes along with a general trend in this movie of presenting a idea or message that should be simple and muddling it due to what I can only chalk up to poor execution.

No, that’s not the message. The message isn’t about sacrifice, it’s about knowing when to pick your battles and saving what you love not destroying what you hate. To sacrifice or not to sacrifice is not exactly the crux of those scenes (this isn’t Infinity War when they’re literally talking about the concept of “trading lives”). Poe is not doing a cost/benefit analysis of sacrifice when he devises these missions, and that’s essentially the point. He’s doing these crazy missions and not really even considering that they might end with sacrifice. (In fairness, I think I worded my last post confusingly, when I talked about Holdo and Luke’s “noble” sacrifices - I don’t think either of these scenes are trying to give a message about sacrifice, in those cases I think their sacrifices are tangential to what those scenes are primarily about).

The dreadnaught and cannon attacks are not about sacrifice, they aren’t designed that way. Paige wasn’t always going to have to sacrifice herself, nor was Finn. When I say they’re suicide missions I mean they’re that way because they both end up going south in a way that will get everyone killed, not that they’re going into it knowing that everyone will die and that’s that (ala Rogue One). The person who’s really learning the lesson here is Poe. Paige shouldn’t have to have sacrificed herself, but she ultimately had no choice. Same with Holdo too in a way, now that I think of it, because Poe’s mutiny/Canto mission causes the First Order to learn about the cargo ships. The difference with Crait, is that Poe has learned his lesson and decides to call off the attack before it gets to the point where someone needs to sacrifice themselves (the pick your battles part of the message). Not that it was necessarily a terrible plan, but when they start getting picked off almost immediately, that’s when it becomes clear that this is a mission that will get everyone killed, and that’s when Poe decides to right his earlier wrong, and “disengage” before that happens.

For Finn, it’s the other part of the message. He’s always hated the First Order, but for the last movie and a half, his solution has been run away rather than fight. Now that’s he’s made the choice to fight, he’s running headlong into it. But he still needs to learn that being on the Resistance is not about simply fighting, it’s saving (that basically gets down to the heart of the conflict - the First Order is going around wreaking havoc, while the Resistance is, well, resisting).

The film’s juggling a few different things when it comes to these sequences, so I guess I can understand the confusion, but I don’t think the messages are complicated or unclear.

Author
Time

Yeah, I agree that the film has a lot to juggle, and because of that maybe the film could’ve bit in a bit more to make certain things a little clearer to more people.

And that’s a good way to explain Finn, Dom! Finn has always been about running away, but now that he believes in the cause, he is almost going overboard, wanting to be a martyr for the cause! But Rose is basically like, “whoa, slow down cowboy”. And last lesson she gives him about what they fight for.

Your first message also made be picture Finn flying into the ram cannon and destroying it, but then the First Order just drops a second one down in front of it. Haha.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

RogueLeader said:

Your first message also made be picture Finn flying into the ram cannon and destroying it, but then the First Order just drops a second one down in front of it. Haha.

Ha, yeah exactly. One thing I tend to think about is people compare Crait to Hoth, right? Well remember what the Empire did to the base on Hoth without a battering ram cannon? The First Order took a hit but clearly still have decent resources, which is why the skimmer attack starts to fail in the first place.

Author
Time

That’s very true. Hell, Kylo could’ve just pulled a Qui-Gon Jinn a burned a whole through the door with his lightsaber.

“He’s still coming through!”