TFA: Why I don't think Rey is a Merry Sue — Page 2

John Doom said:

Another wall of text coming… sigh, I guess we should all try to be more concise.

oojason said:

your first reply - you ignored the crashing the Falcon bit, she didn’t outdo 2/3 Ties - Finn shot 2 down, yes? A bit of teamwork wouldn’t you say.

Well, I was only referring to the fact she was able to fly the Falcon good enough to not get destroyed by the Tie-Fighters, but anyway, it’s just part of the list of things she is able to do in the movie, not a real issue.

your second reply - holding a lightsabre and having a small knowledge of using the Force does not make her an ‘almost fully trained Jedi’.

Small knowledge? Luke, right after its brief training in TESB, doesn’t do mind tricks and can barely pull or throw stuff.

your third reply - ‘just that some of her skills are unexplained, so it feels like she always knows exactly what is needed when is needed’ - makes little sense.

That sometimes she doesn’t seem a true character fully enstablished, but more like a deus-ex-machina.

your fourth reply - ‘sudden knowledge of the Force’ - we’ve established she has knowledge of The Force beforehand - but not how to use it before the interrogation scene with Ren. During the interrogation she gains that knowledge from Ren himself, no?

And how can she gain such knowledge without using the Force? And yet she barely knows what it is, nevermind how to use it.

your fifth reply - you’re reaching a lot there in claiming being shot by a powerful bowcaster made him more powerful?

Not the would itself, but that hurting it could enrage him, drawing power from the dark side. That’s something which was suggested by another user (I don’t remeber who) and may actually be the only reason he uses this “emo practice” 😄

and Rey still only had the upper hand when she let the Force in.

Which, again, is something she does but never explained how or even hinted.

DrCrowTStarwarsreborn said:

Yeah she still had to get a feel for using the lightsaber so she wouldn’t be winning the fight from the start but again if you know the first thing about swords then you know that going on the offense with one takes a lot more energy then being on the defense. In other words the whole time Ren is fighting ray he is wounded and he is not trying to kill her, but he is using more energy then she is when he is wounded so when she gets a feel for the weapon and she gets mad he is in trouble. Really he lost control for less then thirty seconds and that cost him the fight, even the best sword fighters can have this happen to them. Also again what proof do we see in the film that Ren is really good with a lightsaber, do we see him defeat anyone who is trained with a lightsaber in the movie, if the movie is supposed to stand on it’s own then what proof are we given that he knows what he is doing with a lightsaber. All we know is that he killed some other Jedi, but we are never told it is in a lightsaber fight.

You’re saying that he can fight with no problem for like 2 minutes and suddenly (and I repeat, suddenly) is powerless? Because he has no problem fighting Rey until she says “Wow, the Force” “letting the Force in”, and he’s suddenly defeated. Does it make sense to you? Am I just nitpicking?
Ren does knock down Finn and corners Rey, so he’s at least more skilled than them, which means the problem remains.

Oh and as for Rey knowing about the gas and how the controls work, if she had to interact with those systems at all while doing the installs for that big guy on the planet then she would need to know how those systems worked. Now she may not remember every detail every second of her life because it was not the center of her existence but have you ever tried to make repairs or upgrades to a car or a computer without knowing the basics of how the systems work? It can’t be done because you will end up wrecking the thing.

This could be an explaination, but was never officially stated, if right. It wouldn’t have hurted, I guess 😄

Oh and here are just a few skills/ powers/ plot points that are in the original Star Wars that were not explained before they showed up in the theatrical cut and seem to come out of nowhere.
Obiwan being able to use the Jedi mind trick on the Stormtroopers.

Obi-wan is a master in the Force. No problem here.

Leia being able to understands Chewbaca when she takes over for Han during the tie fighter attack.

Obi-wan is able to talk with him too in the Cantina. Considering we’re in an alien society, it’s pretty obvious some people need to learn alien languages, especially Leia who is a royal (and a spy).

Leia knowing how to help Chewbaca pilot the Falcon during said attack, to the point where she is even able to give damage reports.

She doesn’t pilot the Falcon herself (I don’t remember seeing her actually piloting it) and the Falcon’s panel is probably self-explaining for the damages. If not, I agree with you that it wasn’t explained.

Luke being able to use the force. He trains once for about thirty seconds with Obiwan.

It does learn the lesson that he can “let go to his feelings”. He’s still guided by Obi-wan during his “perfect shot” which, anyway, he said it could’ve actually be done even back on Tatooine (before learning about the Force). Still more believable than anything Rey does with zero training in TFA.

The hidden storage compartments on the Falcon. They come completely out of nowhere and are only there to advance the plot, their existence is never even hinted at before hand.

But it’s explained they used it for smuggling, it is actually explained and was in the Falcon all along.

Luke being able to out fly trained pilots and hit a target even a computer can’t. Remember the line about him being a great pilot was cut from the theatrical cut and it wasn’t until I heard the radio version that I knew the T-16 was a ship and not the type of speeder he was driving around. In the movie it is not made clear and we never hear about him piloting a ship before this, except for him saying “I am not such a bad pilot myself” but this seems like him bragging to Han and Obiwan rolls his eyes at this claim, so the movie it’s self up to that point leads us to believe that Luke knows nothing about piloting. The only way a new viewer to the film could know where Luke’s skills comes from is if they somehow knew about the deleted scenes, but that assumes they read a novel or youtube existed back in 77.

Wrong, I already said it: Obi-wan says Luke is quite a good pilot too, like his father.

Also it still doesn’t make much sense since Luke doesn’t seem to know how hyperspace works and the flashing lights on the Falcon’s controls seem to puzzle him and he needs Han to explain both of these things to him, and yet they must be some for of standardized controls that most ships use or how else do we explain Leia knowing how to use the Falcon later in the same movie? Unless there is some untold story that she and Han are keeping under wraps where she was on the ship before and Han taught her how to fly it. This is a massive plot hole that makes no sense to this day and makes bot Luke and Leia Marry Sues.

Well, no one said fighters and merchant ships work and control the same. About Leia, read what I said before.
Even if this one were an actual plot hole, it would be one actual plot hole (which is still bad) against I can’t even remember how many plot holes in TFA just for Rey.

I have to wonder why the people attacking this movie for being worthless garbage are not doing the same to Star Wars. If Rey is a Marry Sue then Luke is one too and that means Star Wars has been a piece of worthless garbage that should be burnt from day one.

Who are you talking to? :\ I never said this movie is “worthless garbage”.

Nothing you said is ever officially stated in Star Wars if it stands on it’s own without any other movies. So if something not being officially stated as fact in bold typeface in TFA means that explanations based on lines and what we see there doesn’t count, then why do the explanations in Star Wars count.

When is it stated on screen before the stormtroopers scene that Jedi can could people’s minds like The Shadow? You are giving Rey crap for having having powers and knowing things that have not been spelled out before they were used in the movie, when Obiwan does the exact same thing in the first movie.

We are never shown Leia knowing what Chewie is saying, in fact she talks about him like he is a thing and throws around what could be considered a racist remark about his race. this would lead me to believe that she has never interacted with Wookies before, so why would she be able to understand him?

Also if Leia wasn’t helping to fly the ship then why did she need to go up there in the fist place and when is it stated in any of the movies that she knows anything about flying a ship, let alone enough to help in combat with a ship that controls are so far from the standard most people use that Luke, who is quite a good pilot, is confused by them. When is it even implied that she has any training that would help on a merchant ship in combat? If she isn’t up there to help fly it then all she was doing was getting in Chewbaca’s way, in the middle of a combat situation and why would Han or Chewie let her do that?

Vader has still been in combat and Luke has not, so again how is Luke able to out fly Vader for so long and how is he so in touch with the force after one training session? I mean Luke being to out fly Vader under the logic you are applying to Rey and Ren’s fight, would be like a crop duster pilot being to out fly a an ace when they were dueling in state of the art F22s. Why are you not calling Luke a Marry Sue.

Oh and about the fight think about what I have just explained as someone who has used a sword and has studied it’s use for some time and then tell me what part of this doesn’t make sense. Ren starts out winning but in the cold people burn through energy fast, he is using up his fast then Ray is, then you add in the fact that he is wounded, then he leaves himself open to an attack because he wants to try and tempt Rey to the dark side, he has not been in a real fight since Luke vanished so he isn’t expected Rey to lash out, he is expecting her to join him because he is just that full of himself, she then surprises him after letting the force in and gets in a couple of lucky hits that send him to the ground. He tired by this point and his body was giving out, if he had seen Rey as a threat he would have finished her off before he got tired, but he did and that did him in, it’s all there in the fight. You can tell he is getting tired because he keeps hitting himself so he can use the pain to keep himself awake and angry and full of energy.

Real life fights are nothing like the ones you see in video games, there are not any stats that determine who wins and loses every time, and in a sword fight if you misplace one foot in the middle of the fight, not matter how good you are you can find yourself in a world of hurt.

I have to say after the prequels this fight was a breath of fresh air, it seemed to be planed out by someone who knew how real fighting worked and knew that no matter who you are fighting if you don’t press your advantage when you have it, you risk losing the fight because it can turn on a dime.

Just because someone has been doing something longer does not mean they have some magic stat that causes them to win every fight regardless of any stupid mistakes they make. Ren made a bunch of mistakes, not the least of which was not being interested in killing Rey. In a real life or death fight if one person doesn’t treat it as a life or death fight they will at some point find themselves in trouble when facing someone who does view it as such.

Oh and if all it takes is the one training session to open Luke’s mind to the force, then could it be that Rey’s vision when she touched Luke’s lightsaber and then Ren using the force to try and get into her head had opened her mind to the force and thus she was able to do things on the same scale Luke was? I know this isn’t spelled out in the movie, but since when is everything spelled out in any Star Wars movie?

All that stuff you said explaining plot holes in Star Wars, was never stated on screen, we are left to figure it out ourselves from the context of how it shows up in the movie, so why is it not okay for TFA to do the exact same thing and to a lesser degree?

Oh right because this movie is new so bashing it is cool, but bash Star Wars or any of it’s characters is not. I don’t think anyone would even be complaining about Rey if she had been a guy, I think the only reason this question even comes up is because she is a girl and whenever there is a female lead in a modern movie it doesn’t take long for someone to accuse her of being a Marry Sue but I have never once in my life seen this same charge applied to a male character.

The fact is we see her make mistakes, she isn’t perfect, and everyone doesn’t treat her like she is the best thing in the history of everything and that alone puts her out of the running to be a Marry Sue without anything else needing to be explained. She is only a Marry Sue if you ignore all the times she makes a mistake or isn’t perfect at something, and once you are doing that then it is on you and not the writers, since they have no control over what you make up in your own head.

Honestly I think it has gotten to the point that if a female character does anything right in a movie and doesn’t spend the whole time crying while waiting for a male hero to save her she is called a Marry Sue.

With respect JD, I think you’re pausing to talk and shift what you say you mean around, not pausing to take in and listen, and your arguments are circular. For example…

your new reply 1 - ‘only referring to the fact she was able to fly the Falcon good enough to not get destroyed by the Tie-Fighters’… and then ‘not a real issue’. Which is it? Why didn’t you say that in the first place instead?

your new reply 2 - your ‘almost fully trained Jedi’… holding a lighsabre and still it’s a small knowledge of the Force (of all the force powers and abilities out there…)

your new reply 3 - ‘sometimes she doesn’t seem a true character fully enstablished’ - I fully disagree, she as a character developed over the film to her given situation and environment as stated before.

your new reply 4 - it contradicts your own claims in your new reply 2. Which is it - ‘she barely knows what it is’ or ‘almost full trained jedi’?

your new reply 5 - he’s now ‘drawing power from the Darkside’ because another user on here said so? Again, that’s quite a reach.

your new reply 6 - ‘Which, again, is something she does but never explained how or even hinted’ - erm… Maz hints at it where she says that Luke’s sabre is calling to her… and Maz tells her about the Force - “it moves through and around every living thing”, “close your eyes… feel it… the Light. It’s always been there - it will guide you.” - after the Force Visions where she touches Luke’s lightsabre. As I stated before the Force guided Rey when she let it in after she was her getting beat by Rey (you know, the bit where she closed her eyes and let the Force in?)

I’ve done you the courtesy of answering your statements and questions - but as I stated above, your posts shift in what you mean, your arguments are circular - and you don’t seem to have taken in what others have said - so I hope you understand why I won’t be replying to you again on this. Thank you.

oojason said:

With respect JD, I think you’re pausing to talk and shift what you say you mean around, not pausing to take in and listen, and your arguments are circular. For example…

your new reply 1 - ‘only referring to the fact she was able to fly the Falcon good enough to not get destroyed by the Tie-Fighters’… and then ‘not a real issue’. Which is it? Why didn’t you say that in the first place instead?

your new reply 2 - your ‘almost fully trained Jedi’… holding a lighsabre and still it’s a small knowledge of the Force (of all the force powers and abilities out there…)

your new reply 3 - ‘sometimes she doesn’t seem a true character fully enstablished’ - I fully disagree, she as a character developed over the film to her given situation and environment as stated before.

your new reply 4 - it contradicts your own claims in your new reply 2. Which is it - ‘she barely knows what it is’ or ‘almost full trained jedi’?

your new reply 5 - he’s now ‘drawing power from the Darkside’ because another user on here said so? Again, that’s quite a reach.

your new reply 6 - ‘Which, again, is something she does but never explained how or even hinted’ - erm… Maz hints at it where she says that Luke’s sabre is calling to her… and Maz tells her about the Force - “it moves through and around every living thing”, “close your eyes… feel it… the Light. It’s always been there - it will guide you.” - after the Force Visions where she touches Luke’s lightsabre. As I stated before the Force guided Rey when she let it in after she was her getting beat by Rey (you know, the bit where she closed her eyes and let the Force in?)

I’ve done you the courtesy of answering your statements and questions - but as I stated above, your posts shift in what you mean, your arguments are circular - and you don’t seem to have taken in what others have said - so I hope you understand why I won’t be replying to you again on this. Thank you.

Yeah same here, sorry to say I am done for now.

Oh and I say she was using the dark side or at least in danger of falling to the dark side because in the OT when Luke struck at Vader in anger it pleased Palpatine because it put him well on the path to the dark side and Yoda ever said “A Jedi uses the force for Knowledge and defense, never attack” and Rey was clearly mad and attacking, at least as mad as Luke was in Jedi and since this movie does share a writer with Empire and Jedi I assume it is playing by the same rules that were put forward in those movies. I admit I could be wrong about this but a few people I have talked to came to the same conclusion I did without my telling them my idea after they saw the movie for the first time, so I am sticking with this idea until I am told it is wrong by another movie. That is all.

DrCrowTStarwarsreborn said:

Nothing you said is ever officially stated in Star Wars if it stands on it’s own without any other movies. So if something not being officially stated as fact in bold typeface in TFA means that explanations based on lines and what we see there doesn’t count, then why do the explanations in Star Wars count.

When is it stated on screen before the stormtroopers scene that Jedi can could people’s minds like The Shadow?
You are giving Rey crap for having having powers and knowing things that have not been spelled out before they were used in the movie, when Obiwan does the exact same thing in the first movie.

I think you’re completely missing my point. It’s not about explaining how these characters can use their skills BEFORE they’re used, it’s just about explaining, either before or after. Just explain something or at least hint at it, c’mon :
Obi-wan is fine because we know he’s a Jedi, trained in the Force. We don’t know his specific “spells” yet, but we do know he’s able to “cast spells” like a “wizard”. Rey, on the other hand, is not a “wizard”, does not know about “magic” and yet she’s suddenly able to make use of powerful “spells” without any sort of explaination. It’s just not the same.

We are never shown Leia knowing what Chewie is saying, in fact she talks about him like he is a thing and throws around what could be considered a racist remark about his race. this would lead me to believe that she has never interacted with Wookies before, so why would she be able to understand him?

You’re assuming she’s never interacted with a wookie only because of her calling Chewie a “big walking carpet”? Had he been “The Nutty Professor” and had Leia said something about his body, would’ve meant she had never interacted with a human being? 😄
But anyway, I still don’t remember Leia actually talking with Chewie. I’m reading the shooting script at this very moment, and the only clue I see is “The Wookiee chatters something to Leia”, which doesn’t mean she understood what she said.

Also if Leia wasn’t helping to fly the ship then why did she need to go up there in the fist place and when is it stated in any of the movies that she knows anything about flying a ship, let alone enough to help in combat with a ship that controls are so far from the standard most people use that Luke, who is quite a good pilot, is confused by them. When is it even implied that she has any training that would help on a merchant ship in combat? If she isn’t up there to help fly it then all she was doing was getting in Chewbaca’s way, in the middle of a combat situation and why would Han or Chewie let her do that?

Same thing with her piloting: like in the movie, nowhere in the script I can see her actually piloting the Falcon, just “Leia watches the computer readout as Chewbacca manipulates the ship’s controls”.
Probably Chewie can’t handle everything by himself, even if he just someone to read about the ship’s status. As I alredy said the post before, it may be a plot hole, I’m not defending it.

Vader has still been in combat and Luke has not, so again how is Luke able to out fly Vader for so long and how is he so in touch with the force after one training session? I mean Luke being to out fly Vader under the logic you are applying to Rey and Ren’s fight, would be like a crop duster pilot being to out fly a an ace when they were dueling in state of the art F22s. Why are you not calling Luke a Marry Sue.

Because has been officially enstablished in the movie that Luke is a skilled pilot. All he had to do against Vader was flying streight to the target, anyway, so there was nothing he could do to out fly him. Why do you say he out flew Vader? Have we seen the same movie? 😄

Oh and about the fight think about what I have just explained as someone who has used a sword and has studied it’s use for some time and then tell me what part of this doesn’t make sense. Ren starts out winning but in the cold people burn through energy fast, he is using up his fast then Ray is, then you add in the fact that he is wounded, then he leaves himself open to an attack because he wants to try and tempt Rey to the dark side, he has not been in a real fight since Luke vanished so he isn’t expected Rey to lash out, he is expecting her to join him because he is just that full of himself, she then surprises him after letting the force in and gets in a couple of lucky hits that send him to the ground. He tired by this point and his body was giving out, if he had seen Rey as a threat he would have finished her off before he got tired, but he did and that did him in, it’s all there in the fight. You can tell he is getting tired because he keeps hitting himself so he can use the pain to keep himself awake and angry and full of energy.

Real life fights are nothing like the ones you see in video games, there are not any stats that determine who wins and loses every time, and in a sword fight if you misplace one foot in the middle of the fight, not matter how good you are you can find yourself in a world of hurt.

Yeah, but nothing does ever happen suddenly like that. One second before he was good enough to corner her, one second later he’s powerless. It makes no sense, I’m tired of repeating myself on this :\

Oh and if all it takes is the one training session to open Luke’s mind to the force, then could it be that Rey’s vision when she touched Luke’s lightsaber and then Ren using the force to try and get into her head had opened her mind to the force and thus she was able to do things on the same scale Luke was? I know this isn’t spelled out in the movie, but since when is everything spelled out in any Star Wars movie?
All that stuff you said explaining plot holes in Star Wars, was never stated on screen, we are left to figure it out ourselves from the context of how it shows up in the movie, so why is it not okay for TFA to do the exact same thing and to a lesser degree?

Since almost everything was spelled out or at least hinted in the other movies and, if it didn’t, it should’ve been. Something major as Rey’s ability to use the Force should’ve not been ignored by the movie itself, it feels like a deus-ex-machina.

Oh right because this movie is new so bashing it is cool, but bash Star Wars or any of it’s characters is not.

I don’t find not liking some aspects of TFA cool.

I don’t think anyone would even be complaining about Rey if she had been a guy, I think the only reason this question even comes up is because she is a girl and whenever there is a female lead in a modern movie it doesn’t take long for someone to accuse her of being a Marry Sue but I have never once in my life seen this same charge applied to a male character.
The fact is we see her make mistakes, she isn’t perfect, and everyone doesn’t treat her like she is the best thing in the history of everything and that alone puts her out of the running to be a Marry Sue without anything else needing to be explained. She is only a Marry Sue if you ignore all the times she makes a mistake or isn’t perfect at something, and once you are doing that then it is on you and not the writers, since they have no control over what you make up in your own head.

Honestly I think it has gotten to the point that if a female character does anything right in a movie and doesn’t spend the whole time crying while waiting for a male hero to save her she is called a Marry Sue.

I have no problem with Rey being a girl: Even if he were I guy, I would’ve still complained that his skills were coming out of nowhere, with no explaination and when needed by the plot.
Since I started posting in this thread, never once I said that I disliked Rey for not making mistakes and being “too perfect”. I dislike her character for the way she’s suddenly able to do what needs to without a proper explaination.

DrCrowTStarwarsreborn said:

Yeah same here, sorry to say I am done for now.

Oh and I say she was using the dark side or at least in danger of falling to the dark side because in the OT when Luke struck at Vader in anger it pleased Palpatine because it put him well on the path to the dark side and Yoda ever said “A Jedi uses the force for Knowledge and defense, never attack” and Rey was clearly mad and attacking, at least as mad as Luke was in Jedi and since this movie does share a writer with Empire and Jedi I assume it is playing by the same rules that were put forward in those movies. I admit I could be wrong about this but a few people I have talked to came to the same conclusion I did without my telling them my idea after they saw the movie for the first time, so I am sticking with this idea until I am told it is wrong by another movie. That is all.

^ yes mate, the bit in the fight with Ren after she let the Force in when backed up on the cliff and she goes on the attack… after she hits him low down and then with a thrust to his shoulder - there is a grimace on her face and style/stance which reminded me of Anakin’s fighting style in ROTS (very confident, attacking style - and to a point, similar to Darth Maul’s) - she has the sabre behind her back ready for a chopping motion… and then they go onto clash and she kicks him to the floor.

Of course I’d have to go watch the Prequels again to verify it (my dodgy old memory - I could well be wrong) - and I really don’t want to have to watch those Prequels again 😉

oojason said:

With respect JD, I think you’re pausing to talk and shift what you say you mean around, not pausing to take in and listen, and your arguments are circular. For example…

your new reply 1 - ‘only referring to the fact she was able to fly the Falcon good enough to not get destroyed by the Tie-Fighters’… and then ‘not a real issue’. Which is it? Why didn’t you say that in the first place instead?

It was obvious, as I was answering to this question, read it again:

John Doom said:

oojason said:

I disagree with a lot of that JD - for one she hasn’t acquired more skills than Luke has (has she?)

She has, indeed:
[…]
-she’s a good enough pilot that she can outdo two (or three?) Tie-Fighters; Specifically, she knows how to pilot the Falcon AND also knows how to fix specific Falcon’s issues;

your new reply 2 - your ‘almost fully trained Jedi’… holding a lighsabre and still it’s a small knowledge of the Force (of all the force powers and abilities out there…)

Right, she doesn’t use the Force for mind reading, mind tricking or pulling lightsabers out of the snow, things Luke could only do in ROTJ (with the exception of pulling in TESB once), when Yoda says he knows everything he needs to know.

your new reply 4 - it contradicts your own claims in your new reply 2. Which is it - ‘she barely knows what it is’ or ‘almost full trained jedi’?

And that’s the contradiction I meant. If she barely knows about the Force and had no training, how can she use it like an almost fully trained Jedi? Never explained.

your new reply 5 - he’s now ‘drawing power from the Darkside’ because another user on here said so? Again, that’s quite a reach.

DrCrow just said the same thing I said in this thread, but anyway, it’s just a guess.

your new reply 6 - ‘Which, again, is something she does but never explained how or even hinted’ - erm… Maz hints at it where she says that Luke’s sabre is calling to her… and Maz tells her about the Force - “it moves through and around every living thing”, “close your eyes… feel it… the Light. It’s always been there - it will guide you.” - after the Force Visions where she touches Luke’s lightsabre. As I stated before the Force guided Rey when she let it in after she was her getting beat by Rey (you know, the bit where she closed her eyes and let the Force in?)

😄 When she was taking a nap, I remember it. Did they explain how she did it (IF she did it? DrCrown, for example, says Ren was instead defeated because he became powerless)? If it was not explained, was at least ever enstablished in any SW movie that people can learn about the Force like when “downloading” in The Matrix, with no actual training?

I’ve done you the courtesy of answering your statements and questions - but as I stated above, your posts shift in what you mean, your arguments are circular - and you don’t seem to have taken in what others have said - so I hope you understand why I won’t be replying to you again on this. Thank you.

Had you read what I said, you would’ve find out that I’ve actually taken into consideration and agreed on some points stated in this thread. No problem, anyway.

oojason said:

DrCrowTStarwarsreborn said:

Yeah same here, sorry to say I am done for now.

Oh and I say she was using the dark side or at least in danger of falling to the dark side because in the OT when Luke struck at Vader in anger it pleased Palpatine because it put him well on the path to the dark side and Yoda ever said “A Jedi uses the force for Knowledge and defense, never attack” and Rey was clearly mad and attacking, at least as mad as Luke was in Jedi and since this movie does share a writer with Empire and Jedi I assume it is playing by the same rules that were put forward in those movies. I admit I could be wrong about this but a few people I have talked to came to the same conclusion I did without my telling them my idea after they saw the movie for the first time, so I am sticking with this idea until I am told it is wrong by another movie. That is all.

^ yes mate, the bit in the fight with Ren after she let the Force in when backed up on the cliff and she goes on the attack… after she hits him low down and then with a thrust to his shoulder - there is a grimace on her face and style/stance which reminded me of Anakin’s fighting style in ROTS (very confident, attacking style - and to a point, similar to Darth Maul’s) - she has the sabre behind her back ready for a chopping motion… and then they go onto clash and she kicks him to the floor.

Of course I’d have to go watch the Prequels again to verify it (my dodgy old memory - I could well be wrong) - and I really don’t want to have to watch those Prequels again 😉

Well I wasn’t thinking of the prequels but that is a good point. I was basing it just on how much she looked like Luke when he was bashing away at Vader in Return of the Jedi, and after that he had to throw his lightsaber away to keep from turning to the dark side so it seems to me that striking in anger for any reason leads to the dark side in the Star Wars universe.

Oh and I never said Ren just lost power for no reason, go reread what I said as I am sick of typing out the same thing one billion times in a row, so I will say it just once more.

The human body is not a magic machine, there are certain condition where the body just can’t go on any more. Fighting with any kind of sword is very intense and attacking wears you out a lot fast then being on the defense. I said he seemed to be getting tired, not that he lost all powers, look no matter how good you are, if you push your body too far you are going to start making mistakes and your body is going to start giving out. I say this as someone who has down lots of heavy work out doors and has even done some out doors in the middle of a blizzard. The fact is that after only a few minutes outside and doing heavy work, if it is as cold as it looked in that scene you are going to need to take a breather and try to warm yourself up because the blood doesn’t want to flow to your limbs, it wants to stay out your core and keep your vital organs warm. Now Ren is wounded as well so that plays a factor. So this is where Rey being on the defense helps her out, she is using less energy and thus isn’t quite as tired as Ren by that point in the fight, he also thinks she is going to join him, so his guard is not up the way it should be. So he is getting tired and his body just wants him to sit down and get warm. Now Rey isn’t as tired, notice I didn’t say anywhere in here that she isn’t getting tired as well and I didn’t say Ren lost all his powers. I will spell it out in small all caps words.

REN WAS GETTING TIRED AND CAUGHT OFF GUARD FOR ALL OF ABOUT TEN TO FIFTEEN SECONDS BUT THAT WAS LONG ENOUGH FOR REY TO LAND TWO BLOWS.

If you don’t think it is every possible for someone to land a couple of lucky blows on an adversary in a fight who is more experienced then they are then I can’t help you. I do have to wonder though how you explain the times heavy weight champs lose fights in boxing or other combat based sports.

Also again if you have problem with this, Vader comes out and credits Luke’s use of the force with making it hard for him to lock onto and destroy Luke’s fighter in the first movie and Vader is a much more experienced combat pilot(Someone being a good pilot with civilian air craft does not make them a great combat pilot. That is why we can’t just take 747 pilots and put then in fighter aircraft without any training.)and has used the force a lot longer and he used it to kill Jedi back in the day, so why don’t you have a problem with the first movie?

If you just go by the movie with out any of the sequels, prequels, or behind the scenes info Luke being to out fly Vader and not get instantly killed like everyone else makes no sense by the same logic that you apply to the Ren/Rey fight.

Well any way I didn’t mean to get dragged back into this and this is the last time for real because everything I say is being completely ignored so I am sick of typing out the same basic facts about how the human body works over and over again so I am done.

joefavs said:

Couldn’t it be that -GASP- the character is supposed to be more powerful than Luke? Everyone’s treating this like they failed to portray a character on roughly ANH-era Luke’s level believably, but since when is that the cap on Force aptitude in this universe? Maybe Rey just does better than Luke because she is better than Luke.

The problem is it makes her unrelatable. I didn’t connect with her character at all. She was too perfect, didn’t have any flaws, didn’t dream of wanting more, or something that could maybe connect us to her personality. She was just… weird.

Also, she is totally a Mary Sue. Someone who defeats everyone in her way, never has to be rescued, doesn’t appear to have any flaws, and so on.

DrCrowTStarwarsreborn said:

Well I wasn’t thinking of the prequels but that is a good point. I was basing it just on how much she looked like Luke when he was bashing away at Vader in Return of the Jedi, and after that he had to throw his lightsaber away to keep from turning to the dark side so it seems to me that striking in anger for any reason leads to the dark side in the Star Wars universe.

^ Same here - though I’ve bored even myself (and mates) silly with my belief/theory that Rey is Luke’s daughter so I’m trying not to read too much into more similarities that others have come across that may enforce this! lol. Having said that I’ve done it again in that Rey displaying a similar fighting style to Anakin could contribute just that little bit more to her being a Skywalker (whether intentional on the actress/filmmakers part - or a coincidence - or my strawclutching). Let alone similar to Luke… I need some sleep.

The rest of your post was for JD, yes?

That_OT_Ruler said:

joefavs said:

Couldn’t it be that -GASP- the character is supposed to be more powerful than Luke? Everyone’s treating this like they failed to portray a character on roughly ANH-era Luke’s level believably, but since when is that the cap on Force aptitude in this universe? Maybe Rey just does better than Luke because she is better than Luke.

The problem is it makes her unrelatable. I didn’t connect with her character at all. She was too perfect, didn’t have any flaws, didn’t dream of wanting more, or something that could maybe connect us to her personality. She was just… weird.

Also, she is totally a Mary Sue. Someone who defeats everyone in her way, never has to be rescued, doesn’t appear to have any flaws, and so on.

So in your words the only good character in the history of fiction in Bell from the Disney version of Beauty and the Beast and every character has to be a carbon copy of her or they are a Mary Sue.

Well in that case why don’t you just only watch Beauty and the Beast and stop trying to change Star Wars into something it is not?

Oh and she makes mistakes all the time and she wants her lost family, if that isn’t wanting more I don’t know what is.

oojason said:

DrCrowTStarwarsreborn said:

Well I wasn’t thinking of the prequels but that is a good point. I was basing it just on how much she looked like Luke when he was bashing away at Vader in Return of the Jedi, and after that he had to throw his lightsaber away to keep from turning to the dark side so it seems to me that striking in anger for any reason leads to the dark side in the Star Wars universe.

^ Same here - though I’ve bored even myself (and mates) silly with my belief/theory that Rey is Luke’s daughter so I’m trying not to read too much into more similarities that others have come across that may enforce this! lol. Having said that I’ve done it again in that Rey displaying a similar fighting style to Anakin could contribute just that little bit more to her being a Skywalker (whether intentional on the actress/filmmakers part - or a coincidence - or my strawclutching). Let alone similar to Luke… I need some sleep.

The rest of your post was for JD, yes?

Yes, I have no idea how to quote two different posts in the same post. I am sure I will figure it out, but right now I have been up for over 48 hour straight due to my rash acting up to the point of pain and I am too tired to figure out anything new or continue arguing.

Yeah I agree with you. Sorry for the confusion.

TV’s Frink said:

That_OT_Ruler said:

joefavs said:

Couldn’t it be that -GASP- the character is supposed to be more powerful than Luke? Everyone’s treating this like they failed to portray a character on roughly ANH-era Luke’s level believably, but since when is that the cap on Force aptitude in this universe? Maybe Rey just does better than Luke because she is better than Luke.

The problem is it makes her unrelatable. I didn’t connect with her character at all. She was too perfect, didn’t have any flaws, didn’t dream of wanting more, or something that could maybe connect us to her personality. She was just… weird.

She didn’t dream of wanting more? She was weird?

I’ve barely read any reviews complaining about Rey not being a character you could connect with. Women and girls especially.

never has to be rescued

Well that’s not a sexist complaint.

The bits where she keeps telling Finn to stop holding her hand and she knows how to run were fantastic.

Good luck with the sexist who ignored/forgot that Rey needed rescuing off of the Starkiller Base as it was about to blow up by Chewy in the Falcon mate, not that you’ll need it.

Nice writing, that - the bits about the handholding and running (in amongst an already well-written and well-portrayed character).

I must now depart this place for a while - there may be some women out there that need rescuing… (the weirdos!)

DrCrowTStarwarsreborn said:

Oh and I never said Ren just lost power for no reason, go reread what I said as I am sick of typing out the same thing one billion times in a row, so I will say it just once more.

And I never said he lost his power for no reason, I know you meant he was getting tired. I was just pointing out that Ren’s defeat can be seen from different point of views.

Also again if you have problem with this, Vader comes out and credits Luke’s use of the force with making it hard for him to lock onto and destroy Luke’s fighter in the first movie and Vader is a much more experienced combat pilot(Someone being a good pilot with civilian air craft does not make them a great combat pilot. That is why we can’t just take 747 pilots and put then in fighter aircraft without any training.)and has used the force a lot longer and he used it to kill Jedi back in the day, so why don’t you have a problem with the first movie?
If you just go by the movie with out any of the sequels, prequels, or behind the scenes info Luke being to out fly Vader and not get instantly killed like everyone else makes no sense by the same logic that you apply to the Ren/Rey fight.

Actually, Vader just says that the Force is strong with Luke, not that his power is making it hard for him to lock onto Luke’s fighter. The only reason he can’t kill him in the end, is because Han saves him at the last time and they weren’t able to actually defeat Vader either, so what’s the deal with it?
Nevermind Rey’s ridiculous ability to use the Force like a fully trained Jedi, her sudden abilty to defeat Ren makes less if no sense, unless it was just Ren being too tired to fight, as you said. I don’t think that’s the case, as it’s pretty obvious they were going for the “letting the Force in” (which, as I said, wasn’t explained nor questioned), but anyway, I agree to disagree.

Anchorhead said:

joefavs said:

^Agreed. It’s been thrown around so much and so carelessly that it’s lost its specific meaning and become an excuse for dismissing something without bothering to articulate.

Exactly. It’s no different than Fanboy and Fanfic. Internet laziness for trolls.

Amen, lads.

John Doom said:

DrCrowTStarwarsreborn said:

Oh and I never said Ren just lost power for no reason, go reread what I said as I am sick of typing out the same thing one billion times in a row, so I will say it just once more.

And I never said he lost his power for no reason, I know you meant he was getting tired. I was just pointing out that Ren’s defeat can be seen from different point of views.

Also again if you have problem with this, Vader comes out and credits Luke’s use of the force with making it hard for him to lock onto and destroy Luke’s fighter in the first movie and Vader is a much more experienced combat pilot(Someone being a good pilot with civilian air craft does not make them a great combat pilot. That is why we can’t just take 747 pilots and put then in fighter aircraft without any training.)and has used the force a lot longer and he used it to kill Jedi back in the day, so why don’t you have a problem with the first movie?
If you just go by the movie with out any of the sequels, prequels, or behind the scenes info Luke being to out fly Vader and not get instantly killed like everyone else makes no sense by the same logic that you apply to the Ren/Rey fight.

Actually, Vader just says that the Force is strong with Luke, not that his power is making it hard for him to lock onto Luke’s fighter. The only reason he can’t kill him in the end, is because Han saves him at the last time and they weren’t able to actually defeat Vader either, so what’s the deal with it?
Nevermind Rey’s ridiculous ability to use the Force like a fully trained Jedi, her sudden abilty to defeat Ren makes less if no sense, unless it was just Ren being too tired to fight, as you said. I don’t think that’s the case, as it’s pretty obvious they were going for the “letting the Force in” (which, as I said, wasn’t explained nor questioned), but anyway, I agree to disagree.

He says the Force is strong with this one after he has had trouble hitting anything besides a droid and while the image on screen is of Luke’s fight jerking around in such a way that he can’t lock on to him and Luke lasts much longer then any of the other pilots who were trained for combat do against Vader and he hits a target not even the computer can lock on to. The only reason he is there for Han to save is because he out flies a pilot who has been flying since before he was born and has been using the force much longer then he has. In the context of the movie it makes no more sense then Rey defeating Ren in the latest movie, and yet the people who attack Rey for being a Marry Sue are fine with Luke.

What is more Rey is now attacked for not needing be saved by a man and not acting like a Disney princess and that is bold faced sexism since I don’t remember Han being attack for not needing a woman to save him or not wanting more and what is more the charge isn’t even true. Rey escaped on her own but she couldn’t get off of the planet on her own and what is more she did want more and she ran away from helping people who were in danger so she could go after the family that she knew wasn’t coming back.

So yeah I am done. The charge isn’t true and even if it was it is blatantly sexist in nature and I am not one of those people who looks for sexism in things. I normally don’t care and I will defend productions from the 30s and 40s at times against that charge but in this case it just seems odd that such a good character that so many people have connected with is being attacked for reasons of gender in the year 2016. I mean I went in expecting to hate her because I was expecting her to be one of those bratty marry sue characters that really grates on my nerves, but that wasn’t what she was and by the twenty or so minute mark of this film I remember that I stopped caring if any of the old characters were going to turn up, because I was so interested in her story. In fact I remember being a little sad when Han and Chewie turned up because I knew they were going to take some of the focus off of her and Finn.

Maybe you should just consider the possibility that with some many people liking this character, it isn’t the character who is badly written, it’s just that these new films don’t appeal to you so you have zeroed in on the character as the reason. There is nothing wrong with just having personal tastes that something well written doesn’t appeal to. For instance I have never been able to get into Breaking Bad, Mad Men, or Game of Thrones. Those three shows are pretty much universally praised as some of the best written and acted shows of all time, but they just don’t appeal to me so I don’t watch them but I don’t try to tell people who do watch them that they are badly written, because it is clear a lot of people have found that to not be the case and it is more likely they just don’t appeal to my personal taste, so why would I spend time arguing over something I am never going to enjoy.

I would advise you to cut your losses with the new series and just go back to watching what you like and stop trying to convince people to hate something they enjoy. The new movies aren’t for you, that is fine, you don’t have to keep going out of your way to defend that simple fact just like I don’t have to go out of my way to defend my taste in movies. After all it’s just a film, we should really just relax.

So yeah I am done defending this movie, it is clear the people who hate Rey and this movie are not going to have their minds changed any more then the people who love her and this movie are going to have their’s changed. So I am done for good now.

See ya.

He says the Force is strong with this one after he has had trouble hitting anything besides a droid and while the image on screen is of Luke’s fight jerking around in such a way that he can’t lock on to him and Luke lasts much longer then any of the other pilots who were trained for combat do against Vader and he hits a target not even the computer can lock on to. The only reason he is there for Han to save is because he out flies a pilot who has been flying since before he was born and has been using the force much longer then he has. In the context of the movie it makes no more sense then Rey defeating Ren in the latest movie, and yet the people who attack Rey for being a Marry Sue are fine with Luke.

I don’t agree with your interpretation of this scene, but it’s fine. I don’t want to waste your time repeating myself about why I disagree on your points here.

What is more Rey is now attacked for not needing be saved by a man and not acting like a Disney princess and that is bold faced sexism.

Rest assured I’ve nothing sexist against her character, I have absolutely no problem with her gender and the fact she’s not a “damsel in distress”.

Maybe you should just consider the possibility that with some many people liking this character, it isn’t the character who is badly written, it’s just that these new films don’t appeal to you so you have zeroed in on the character as the reason. There is nothing wrong with just having personal tastes that something well written doesn’t appeal to. For instance I have never been able to get into Breaking Bad, Mad Men, or Game of Thrones. Those three shows are pretty much universally praised as some of the best written and acted shows of all time, but they just don’t appeal to me so I don’t watch them but I don’t try to tell people who do watch them that they are badly written, because it is clear a lot of people have found that to not be the case and it is more likely they just don’t appeal to my personal taste, so why would I spend time arguing over something I am never going to enjoy.
I would advise you to cut your losses with the new series and just go back to watching what you like and stop trying to convince people to hate something they enjoy. The new movies aren’t for you, that is fine, you don’t have to keep going out of your way to defend that simple fact just like I don’t have to go out of my way to defend my taste in movies. After all it’s just a film, we should really just relax.

Well, I do like Star Wars’ space opera’s genre, so I don’t think TFA just doesn’t appeal to me. When I went to the theater, I watched the movie both prising and opposing each of its features objectively, the same I do for all movies I watch, including the previous 6 Star Wars movies, and that’s not true that I completely disliked this movie (I don’t understand what made you think so).
In any case, I’m not trying to force anyone to agree with me at all on Rey. I just shared my opinions on this thread’s subject and we discussed together about what could be considered fact, what subjective, sharing each other’s point of view. I think that’s what threads are made for, after all, right? 😄
And I think we had a good time together, so thank you for making this thread.

DrCrowTStarwarsreborn - I won’t tell you how you should feel, patronise you, say or something along the lines of ‘it’ll all be alright in the end’, but please remember this - I for one enjoyed your original post here and then arguing and articulating our viewpoints with others - albeit we had to repeat ourselves a few times…

Plus, Frink posts on here ‘frequently’ enough to know more than most he’ll be in misunderstandings in these threads!

Hope you feel better, and see you post again when ready, soon.

John Doom said:

He says the Force is strong with this one after he has had trouble hitting anything besides a droid and while the image on screen is of Luke’s fight jerking around in such a way that he can’t lock on to him and Luke lasts much longer then any of the other pilots who were trained for combat do against Vader and he hits a target not even the computer can lock on to. The only reason he is there for Han to save is because he out flies a pilot who has been flying since before he was born and has been using the force much longer then he has. In the context of the movie it makes no more sense then Rey defeating Ren in the latest movie, and yet the people who attack Rey for being a Marry Sue are fine with Luke.

I don’t agree with your interpretation of this scene, but it’s fine. I don’t want to waste your time repeating myself about why I disagree on your points here.

What is more Rey is now attacked for not needing be saved by a man and not acting like a Disney princess and that is bold faced sexism.

Rest assured I’ve nothing sexist against her character, I have absolutely no problem with her gender and the fact she’s not a “damsel in distress”.

Maybe you should just consider the possibility that with some many people liking this character, it isn’t the character who is badly written, it’s just that these new films don’t appeal to you so you have zeroed in on the character as the reason. There is nothing wrong with just having personal tastes that something well written doesn’t appeal to. For instance I have never been able to get into Breaking Bad, Mad Men, or Game of Thrones. Those three shows are pretty much universally praised as some of the best written and acted shows of all time, but they just don’t appeal to me so I don’t watch them but I don’t try to tell people who do watch them that they are badly written, because it is clear a lot of people have found that to not be the case and it is more likely they just don’t appeal to my personal taste, so why would I spend time arguing over something I am never going to enjoy.
I would advise you to cut your losses with the new series and just go back to watching what you like and stop trying to convince people to hate something they enjoy. The new movies aren’t for you, that is fine, you don’t have to keep going out of your way to defend that simple fact just like I don’t have to go out of my way to defend my taste in movies. After all it’s just a film, we should really just relax.

Well, I do like Star Wars’ space opera’s genre, so I don’t think TFA just doesn’t appeal to me. When I went to the theater, I watched the movie both prising and opposing each of its features objectively, the same I do for all movies I watch, including the previous 6 Star Wars movies, and that’s not true that I completely disliked this movie (I don’t understand what made you think so).
In any case, I’m not trying to force anyone to agree with me at all on Rey. I just shared my opinions on this thread’s subject and we discussed together about what could be considered fact, what subjective, sharing each other’s point of view. I think that’s what threads are made for, after all, right? 😄
And I think we had a good time together, so thank you for making this thread.

Thanks, i think I needed that today.

Sorry the last few days have been some of my bad days, thanks for posting in the this thread.

oojason said:

DrCrowTStarwarsreborn - I won’t tell you how you should feel, patronise you, say or something along the lines of ‘it’ll all be alright in the end’, but please remember this - I for one enjoyed your original post here and then arguing and articulating our viewpoints with others - albeit we had to repeat ourselves a few times…

Plus, Frink posts on here ‘frequently’ enough to know more than most he’ll be in misunderstandings in these threads!

Hope you feel better, and see you post again when ready, soon.

Thanks, that’s a big help.

I’ll be fine in the end, I am just having some bad days lately but it will get better, it always does.