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MagnoliaFan Edits: Ep I "Balance Of The Force", and Ep II "The Clone War" (Released) — Page 2

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Oh man I really want to see these edits. Hear my cry, Rikter! Or at least my PM...
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That's the first time I've had anyone notice the rule of two change.
There's a few reasons I changed it...

1) The Empire Strikes Back -
"If he could be turned, he would be a powerful ally."
Why the hell would the Emperor agree to Vader saying, "If I killed you, he would be an acceptable replacement"?

2) The Phantom Menace -
According to George, the rule of two went into effect after the Sith were wiped out, which menas, the only way Yoda could possibly know about it would be if he, himself, were the Sith Master.

I just think it makes more sense if Yoda were speaking about the grander scheme of things, like "There is another..."
It's just common sense...
The last Sith wouldn't have waited a thousand years to stick his ass out on the line in an uncertain situation and get killed by a padawan... There has to be more than one.
Plus it adds the possibility of Vader, Palpatine, and Luke co-existing as Sith in the OT... a sort of Evil trinity.
I just think it works better.

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[quote]Why the hell would the Emperor agree to Vader saying, "If I killed you, he would be an acceptable replacement"?[/quote]

Because it's not like the Emperor is agreeing to anything there. If Vader can set him on the dark path, you don't think Palpatine isn't thinking "ah-ha. so this kid thinks he can turn the kid and take me out. If he can turn him, I can turn him to MY ends, just like I've turned two other jedi before. No sweat."

They're sith. They don't do anything BUT hunger for power. Both Palps and Vader know this. It's matter of fact.

[quote]Plus it adds the possibility of Vader, Palpatine, and Luke co-existing as Sith in the OT... a sort of Evil trinity.[/quote]

Not really. That's never a possibility. Return of the Jedi makes that painfully clear. Palps wanted Luke to kill Vader. Palps was fully prepared to let Vader kill Luke. There would never be a possibility of a Evil trinity no matter how you tweaked the prequels.

Also, I think your switch from Dooku DEFINITELY being a sith to being some kind of "maybe-bad-guy/Dark Jedi" easily kneecaps the entire point of the character at the least, and simply makes the mystery about him redundant as well, especially considering his role in Episode III. You have to have his vagueness wrapped up in Episode II, otherwise it creates problems for Episode III. The Yellow Saber ruins that. Hell, it factors into that Return of the Jedi climax as much as anything else--Palpatine's ability to turn Dooku and get him to resign from the Jedi is a main reason he smiles and grins at Vader for suggesting he can turn Luke. you take that away from Dooku by giving him a yellow saber and not outright making him a sith, you completely weaken not only the ESB scene, but the force behind Palpatine's taunts in ROTJ.
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^ Palpatine got to Dooku before he left the Jedi / Jedi Council?

I'm not sure on the 'redundancy' of Dooku due to what happens in Ep3 - apart from his death, we don't know the details of the on-screen stuff of what's going on yet.

That's a pretty big jump in conclusions to the main reason of the Emperor smiling at Vader in RoTJ is that it reminds him of getting Dooku to resign from the Jedi (did he?) all those years before.

I agree that the events in EP3 could make it quite difficult for Magnolia to carry on the consistancy of Dooku - though it should be interesting to see how he does it - though it all depends on just how heavily Dooku features in the final cut of Ep3 too...


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did Vader bring 'Balance to the force' by killing all but two of the Jedi (Obi Wan and Yoda) leaving two Jedi and two Sith (vader and the Emperor) and in effect Luke Skywalker would be the one to potentially upset the Balance of the Force?
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>>[quote]Plus it adds the possibility of Vader, Palpatine, and Luke co-existing as Sith in the OT... a sort of Evil trinity.[/quote]

Not really. That's never a possibility. Return of the Jedi makes that painfully clear. Palps wanted Luke to kill Vader. Palps was fully prepared to let Vader kill Luke. There would never be a possibility of a Evil trinity no matter how you tweaked the prequels.>>


If that was never a possibility, Vader wouldn't have blocked Luke's swing at the Emperor.
WHAM! Sidious is dead, Vader is Emperor, and Luke has turned to the dark side.
Vader seemed to be under the impression that there were going to be three of them, even if it did turn out that Palpatine did intend to repay Vader's betrayal in ESB with one of his own.

>>Also, I think your switch from Dooku DEFINITELY being a sith to being some kind of "maybe-bad-guy/Dark Jedi" easily kneecaps the entire point of the character at the least, and simply makes the mystery about him redundant as well, especially considering his role in Episode III. You have to have his vagueness wrapped up in Episode II, otherwise it creates problems for Episode III. The Yellow Saber ruins that. Hell, it factors into that Return of the Jedi climax as much as anything else--Palpatine's ability to turn Dooku and get him to resign from the Jedi is a main reason he smiles and grins at Vader for suggesting he can turn Luke. you take that away from Dooku by giving him a yellow saber and not outright making him a sith, you completely weaken not only the ESB scene, but the force behind Palpatine's taunts in ROTJ.

The change doesn't kneecap the character at all.
That one scene kneecapped the entire film in Episode II. It took what could have been an interesting cliffhanger mystery and spoonfed you the answer before it was in any way necessary.
It would have been like having Yoda tell Luke that Vader was his father at the end of ESB instead of in Jedi. People argued for three years after ESB that Vader was a liar and not really Luke's father, or that he was a clone of Luke's father, until Jedi resolved it definitely. I have several old magazines from then with articles debating it.
Also, it can still easily be revealed that Dooku is a Sith in Episode III, if I decide to make him one. Likewise, it could just as easily be removed altogether.
It in no way effects the scene in ESB, other than removing contradictory information.
If there were a rule of two in place in Jedi, Vader would have agreed to kill Luke, then hidden him from the Emperor and tried to turn him... and he certainly would NEVER have taken an unturned Luke before the Emperor in Jedi. If Dooku were a Sith, and we know how he ends up in III, Vader wouldn't need to be a rocket scientist to see how that was going to end up.
Also, the Emperor's taunts are totally irrelevant to any of the changes I made. You won't really see how much they mirror a scene in the Prequels until EP III, and its Anakin who is on the recieving end of the taunting then.

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Hmmm...some interesting debate there.

I guess I never thought about why Yoda would know that rule....maybe one of the Sith Lords accidentally "CC'd" Yoda when "Force emailing" each other....

Did the Jedi wipe the Sith out? Or did one of the Sith Lords kill off a bunch of the others to end their power/greed struggles? I seem to remember some of the comics talking about this. If so, then Yoda could possibly just infer that that's what they would have to do to survive. But I don't remember Lucas' exact statements on that stuff...I doubt he would refer to the "comic history". Seems more likely that was just a flaw in Lucas' logic.

Although that rule could still work within the OT.

I still think Vader and Palps were each vying for Luke to become their "right hand man". Even though the Emperor agreed to Vader's offer of turning him, I think he knew that the only way he would truly be turned would be to kill Vader. I think he foresaw Luke's dilemna in the Throne Room. Also remember that Vader told Luke together they could destroy the Emperor and rule as father and son. As for why Vader blocks Luke's strike, I tend to think that he was "Force persuaded" by the Emperor himself to prevent his own death....the Emperor was just goading Luke to kill him, though obviously that was never Palps' true intention. If it was, then he just gave Vader exactly what he wanted...Luke a darksider, and them ruling the galaxy together. Why would he allow that? He knew he could make Vader block Luke's deathblow.
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Originally posted by: oojason
^ Palpatine got to Dooku before he left the Jedi / Jedi Council?

I'm not sure on the 'redundancy' of Dooku due to what happens in Ep3 - apart from his death, we don't know the details of the on-screen stuff of what's going on yet.

That's a pretty big jump in conclusions to the main reason of the Emperor smiling at Vader in RoTJ is that it reminds him of getting Dooku to resign from the Jedi (did he?) all those years before.

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No, it's redundant. I'd have to get into Episode III spoilers to do it, and I'm not sure how many of you really want that. Plus then you get into questioning whether the Episode III rumors I tell you are real or not, and then we're REALLY off track. But basically, Dooku's turning factors in a GREAT deal to Anakin's turning, which then factors in to the attempt to turn Luke. It's all pretty tightly connected. Not a large jump at all. Palpatine is smiling because he KNOWS what Vader is trying to pull, and he thinks it's funny that Vader would even attempt that. The overconfidence, remember?

Vader seemed to be under the impression that there were going to be three of them,

No he didn't. You're reading that scene pretty simply. He blocks the saber because of his tie to Palpatine. it's almost instinct. Palpatine turns him, saves him from death, is responsible for not only his mastery of the Force, but his very life. It's reflex to protect his only father figure. He's like the reluctant thief who plots out an elaborate robbery and then starts shuffling feet and getting all nervous just before the heist goes down. And these are motives that should not only be clear on their own, but motives that are outright referenced in the movies themselves, by Vader himself. he's very very conflicted, and he's trying to hedge his bets. He's basically in over his head. Which is why Palpatine was smiling at him in ESB--he knows Vader can't handle that.

And these are all things you'd miss if you simply write the scene off as "He wants a evil trio." just because he blocks the saber. Palpatine wouldn't have invited Luke to swing if he didn't know he'd brainwashed Anakin so thoroughly.

That one scene kneecapped the entire film in Episode II. It took what could have been an interesting cliffhanger mystery and spoonfed you the answer before it was in any way necessary.


It wasn't really an interesting mystery, for one. The instant he sentences Obi Wan/Anakin/Padme to death, there's no mystery left to his character--he's full on evil. Bad guy. He's not confused or misled or Jedi Batman, using the dark ways to fight for justice. He's just straight up evil--a notion reinforced by his siccing his droids on TWO HUNDRED jedi. There's no mystery left at that point--the red saber is anticlimactic after that.

Secondly, it IS necessary that you know Dooku is a sith before Episode III starts. It's very INTEGRAL to the story of Episode III that the jedi not only know Dooku is a Sith by then, but that they're completely confused--they more than likely believe HE is Maul's master, even after Dooku's telling the truth to Kenobi. I don't see how showing that Dooku, without a doubt, has been turned "spoonfeeds" anything. If anything, it ADDS more mystery for the Jedi because now they have to deal with the idea that not only did he leave the Jedi, but he might possibly be THE sith they've been looking for, and how could they have lost him so badly.

And as for your "I could easily reveal him as a sith in Episode III" that's really going to screw up the timing. Once again, I'd have to get into Episode III spoilers to show you how, and I don't know if you want that--but if you try to hold the "tension" over to Episode III, Dooku's moments in Episode III are going to be pretty laughably disappointing. Your comparison to "Vader is Luke's Dad" revelation is pretty spotty, actually. They're not at all near the same level of importance. It's very necessary that the revelation of Dooku's allegiance is revealed--because it's causing the same air of confusion at the end of the movie that the Vader confession caused: The Jedi are totally thrown. They think they've found the sith, but the sith turns out to be an old Jedi, and now this old Jedi is telling them that there's ANOTHER sith over him, which calls the rule of two into question, and then that other sith just happens to control the senate somehow. All while the Jedi are noticing they can't use the force as effectively. Dooku's being a sith begins to tie all this stuff together at the end of Episode II, and effectively sets the stage for Episode III. The Jedi are confused and struggling--and having Dooku be a big yellow-sabered "maybe" at the end of that really DOES kneecap all that uncertainty. It diffuses it. It actually COMPLICATES the storytelling, not enhances it. It's trying to add extra mystery to a problem that's already been solved. If you want to compare it to the Vader scene, it'd be like this:

Vader: Obi Wan never told you about your father.
Luke: He told me enough. he told me YOU killed him.
Vader: No. That's not what happened. And too bad you won't find out.

And then he cuts out the gantry from under Luke and walks offscreen.

Also, you didn't seem to address the fact that Yoda himself must have been a Dark Lord of the Sith in order to have had knowledge of the rule, as it was put into place AFTER they were wiped out


he's Yoda. He can see things. He felt Anakin lose it on Tatooine while meditating. Heard Qui Gon Jinn 10 years after his death REACTING to Anakin's actions. He taught Luke that you can use the Force to look into the past AND into the future. I have no problem with Yoda meditating on the Sith, looking at Sith histories, and using the force to probe into those histories. It's easy enough.




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I still think Vader and Palps were each vying for Luke to become their "right hand man".


Kinda. The interesting thing about that scene is that there are three distinctively different agendas all at work at the same time.

Palpatine is basically having a playoff. The idea of Vader turning Luke and those two fighting him isn't really a possibility to him. His overconfidence is his undoing. To Palpatine, he's thinking "These two will go at it. And whoever wins, I turn." Either way, he's in charge. He doesn't see it any other way. This is just Skywalker Playoffs to him.

Vader is thinking "I have a kid! I have a REAL family! I can..I can rule the galaxy with him. I can give him something! Give him my power! We can share in this power" he's suddenly mixing his raw ambition, his hunger for power, for domination, with his long hidden parental instincts. He's thinking he might be able to rule with this kid, but on the other hand, he knows how powerful Palpatine is, and he's got questions about Luke's fortitude. And if Palpatine takes him, or if Vader kills him, then he wasn't worthy of his name anyway. He'd lived this long without him, right?

Luke is trying to turn VADER. Which neither one of them will think happens.

Palps is trying to turn Luke against Vader
Vader is trying to turn Luke from the light.
Luke is trying to turn Vader back.
Palps doesn't care who wins, really, either one will be a Sith
Vader wants Luke to turn, but is so indebted to Palpatine that losing Luke is just academic theorizing at this point.
Luke wants to turn his father and kill Palpatine.

There's nothing about this sequence that is really simple. And it gets even more complicated after certain things are revealed in Episode III.
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To say Dooku was pure evil leaves a huge gaping problem.
He offerred to spare the Jedi. He gave them a chance to surrender, in exchange for their lives. Neither Maul, Vader, nor especially Sidious would have ever done that for a couple of hostages.

And as for the yellow saber. It doesn't effect anything.
This is the second film in the series. Only Maul has been seen with a red saber, thus far.
There is nothing to support, in this alternate universe, that all Sith must have red sabers.
The "all Jedi use blue or green and all Sith use red" was destroyed the moment Mace Windu ignited his saber, anyway. What is he, a half Sith? Half blue, half red...
At that moment, saber color became cosmetic.

And to actually to compare what happened in EP II to the Vader scene in ESB, what happened in the original EP II was like:

Vader: Obi Wan never told you about your father.
Luke: He told me enough. he told me YOU killed him.
Vader: No. That's not true! That's impossible!

Obi-Wan's ghost appears.

Obi-Wan: No, it is true. Oh, and Leia... She's your sister, by the way.

The prequels seem to have this approach, that in turn is also altering the original trilogy to follow it, that every question is answered five minutes before it is raised and only the characters onscreen are out of the loop. Everything seems to be just going through the motions. The audience already knows the whole puzzle and how it is all going to end, not just in the larger sense, since we have seen Jedi, but in evry aspect of the films.

In the end of Clone War, the Jedi are still just as confused, but they are more divided. Yoda is sure that Dooku is the Sith Master. Mace Windu suspects that he is not and wants to keep an eye out for this "Sidious" and Obi-Wan is on the fence about it. Once again, just like with training Anakin, they are divided and incapable of making a decision. The arguement is more interesting in CW, because we don't know which one of them is right. It leaves the audience room to take sides.
And George's version is the one that is going to be redundant in the end, since the Jedi still don't know for sure that Dooku is a Sith in II, only we do. That means that he is going to have to reveal it all over again in Episode III for the Jedi, unless the Jedi are just left thinking they got the master, until Sidious is revealed. In that case, it works just as well that he was not a Sith...

Personally, I think it is more interesting to think that the Nute Gunray and Palpatine suckered in a Jedi by telling him the truth. The truth turns out to be so outrageous that no one will believe him, and the frustration of screaming the truth in a crowded room and going unheard drives him mad, and he ends out decimating his entire order, all in the name of destroying the Sith... And all the while, all Sidious has to do is sit back and watch. The Jedi do it all for him.
The Jedi's downfall in the end is no different from the Sith's a millenia prior.
They wipe themselves out with their own infighting and the Sith just have to sweep in and play clean up at the end.

I don't think that changes Palpatine's smile in Jedi one bit.
Whether he's thinking, "I can't believe another one is going to try this..." or "I can't believe he has the nerve to try this". Either way, whether from knowledge of the past, or visions of the future, he still thinks he knows how its going to end.

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Originally posted by: MagnoliaFan
To say Dooku was pure evil leaves a huge gaping problem.
He offerred to spare the Jedi. He gave them a chance to surrender, in exchange for their lives. Neither Maul, Vader, nor especially Sidious would have ever done that for a couple of hostages.

If you think that wasn't facetious....Once again, you're taking things entirely too simply and too literally and creating new problems to "Fix" something that wasn't really a problem in the first place if you look beneath the surface for more than 2 seconds.

The "all Jedi use blue or green and all Sith use red" was destroyed the moment Mace Windu ignited his saber, anyway. What is he, a half Sith? Half blue, half red...
At that moment, saber color became cosmetic.

No it didn't, beacuse all sith STILL use red. There's no destruction there at all. Mace's purple saber doesn't change that Vader, Dooku and Maul all tote red sabers, and it's very well established in the universe that the red saber is the bad one. I'm not trying to argue the purple saber. that has nothing to do with changing Dooku's saber from red (he is a sith) to yellow (whatever the hell that is)

I also don't see how your analogy works at all. Dooku's being a sith isn't really a giant mystery. Certainly not the driving mystery of the flick: Those mysteries are a) who's trying to kill Padme and b) who ordered these clones. And there's NO way Yoda doesn't know it after fighting him.

In the end of Clone War, the Jedi are still just as confused, but they are more divided. Yoda is sure that Dooku is the Sith Master. Mace Windu suspects that he is not and wants to keep an eye out for this "Sidious" and Obi-Wan is on the fence about it. Once again, just like with training Anakin, they are divided and incapable of making a decision. The arguement is more interesting in CW, because we don't know which one of them is right. It leaves the audience room to take sides.

I don't buy that at all, either. Unless you're looping new dialog, the jedi aren't divided at all. they're confused and cautious, but they're certainly not "tearing each other apart." or "incapable of making a decision" They made their decision on Anakin. There's no room created for the audience to take sides on, because there's only really two sides anyway--Good and Bad. You're trying to introduce a shade of grey into a subplot that isn't served by it. They know who the enemy is--they just don't know who else he's working with, and they don't really know how to fight him.

And George's version is the one that is going to be redundant in the end, since the Jedi still don't know for sure that Dooku is a Sith in II, only we do. That means that he is going to have to reveal it all over again in Episode III for the Jedi, unless the Jedi are just left thinking they got the master, until Sidious is revealed. In that case, it works just as well that he was not a Sith...


There are 2 years between movies. Same space of time it took Vader to learn that Luke was his kid from ANH to ESB. It's not at all implausible that the Jedi definitively find out, as we do, that Dooku is a sith. You don't have to "reveal it all over again" because with that time between flicks, you can just have the Jedi know, and the audience will fill in the blanks themselves. real easy. Helps add to the "in media res" feeling as well.

Personally, I think it is more interesting to think that the Nute Gunray and Palpatine suckered in a Jedi by telling him the truth. The truth turns out to be so outrageous that no one will believe him, and the frustration of screaming the truth in a crowded room and going unheard drives him mad, and he ends out decimating his entire order, all in the name of destroying the Sith... And all the while, all Sidious has to do is sit back and watch. The Jedi do it all for him.


....wha? He's frustrated with the Jedi for the same reason Qui-Gon is. Palpatine gets to him and preys on that weakness. It's much more interesting, to me, to have a Jedi Master get so sick of the jedi that he leaves of his own volition, as opposed to the cliche "Boy who cries wolf" scenario you're trying to shoehorn in. And even with your re-jiggering of the Gunray character, there's NO way he cons Dooku. he's not that good. And Palpatine isn't going to use him that closely.

The Jedi's downfall in the end is no different from the Sith's a millenia prior.
They wipe themselves out with their own infighting and the Sith just have to sweep in and play clean up at the end.


there is no Jedi infighting tho, so I don't know where you're getting that. Some of them are more arrogant than others, but there is no hint of any kind of grand split down the center of the Jedi, and certainly not to the point where they end up squaring off against each other. Making the Jedi more like the Sith doesn't help anything but to add some cynicism to a flick that doesn't really need any at that point. If the good guys are really no different than the bad guys at all, in a movie series this morally simple, then there's no reason to bother.

It just boils down to you mistakenly judging the importance of the Dooku revelation, and then editing to try to boost it to the level of the "twist" at the end of ESB.



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As far s the red saber being established by Sith because of Maul and Vader...
There is no Vader. This is Episode II. Only Maul has been seen with one. Hardly a precedent.

And you ask how the Jedi are infighting. If Dooku = Jedi, then a Jedi (Dooku) builds a huge army to topple the Republic. The Jedi defend the Republic. One Jedi and his droid army wipe out the bulk of the Jedi through the Clone Wars, while Sidious just watches and pulls the strings.

If you don't think Nute Gunray is conniving enough to orchestrate this with Sidious, then you obviously never paid attention during my EP I. Most are of the opinion that my Gunray is every bit the equal in the evil department as Vader, Tarkin, and Palpatine.

Unless you're looping new dialogue...

Meaning that you haven't even seen my versions? I kind of figured that.
Well, this arguement is over. I have better things to do than argue with someone trolling for a fight, about a film he's never seen. This is like the film critic in Sacramento who actually had the nerve to say, "I watched the the trailer for the Two Towers... I don't need to see the film. The whole thing is one big video game. One and a half stars."

I'll just score this as two people thus far on these boards who didn't appreciate the edits, versus the rest of the people here who did take some form of enjoyment away from it.
And of the two who voiced not liking anything about them, one never even saw them and really has their mind made up blindly to the point where nothing will ever change it, and the other hated the source material and admitted reshooting them was the only thing that could salvage them.
Really, these edits were made for fans of the OT who didn't like the prequels, to give them a new appreciation for them, not to give prequel gushers something to bitch about. Your precious version is still out there, complete with virgin births, midichlorians, fart jokes, redundant plot, inconsistant pace, that horribly acted and inexplicable love story, and stiff dialogue that yes, in several places has been relooped in my version from production audio and other sources.
Go enjoy it, just as the people here are enjoying mine. Life is too short to waste on senseless arguements over which one is better.

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To veer back on course here, to answer a few other questions raised...

Did Vader bring 'Balance to the force' by killing all but two of the Jedi (Obi Wan and Yoda) leaving two Jedi and two Sith (vader and the Emperor) and in effect Luke Skywalker would be the one to potentially upset the Balance of the Force?

In George's version, Vader brought Balance to the Force by killing Palpatine, and destroying the Sith.

In my take on the saga (cue another arguement from Bizzle), from another point of view, they misinterpreted the Prophecy and Anakin brought Balance to the Force by extinguishing the light from the galaxy, which had been so predominant for the past millenia. That's why the Prophecy is never mentioned again in my versions of IV - VI. It's not something that Yoda and Obi-Wan would look back on fondly.


Concerning T3:
When I get what I need I'll forward to you the scenes I'm going to try to integrate. I'm sure you'll do a better job than I can, and your 'take' on the film will definitely be different.


I certainly look forward to checking out whatever it is that you've got. Keep me posted.

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Originally posted by: MagnoliaFan
As far s the red saber being established by Sith because of Maul and Vader...
There is no Vader. This is Episode II. Only Maul has been seen with one. Hardly a precedent.

The films don't exist in a vaccuum, though. There is a Vader. And there is a Dooku. It's definitely a precedent. I mean--you're not really re-editing these in the belief that sometime down the road, there will be children of fans who will be introduced to the prequels via your edits? Cause that's the only hypothetical audience you could be making that argument for.

And you ask how the Jedi are infighting. If Dooku = Jedi, then a Jedi (Dooku) builds a huge army to topple the Republic.

But Dooku's not a Jedi, because even if you make him NOT a sith--he's still left the order. he's no longer a Jedi.

The Jedi defend the Republic. One Jedi and his droid army wipe out the bulk of the Jedi through the Clone Wars, while Sidious just watches and pulls the strings.

Which is exactly how Palpatine plays it to the rest of the senate and the republic in Episode III. As it stands. You don't need to re-edit anything to get to that point. That's how its' going to go down. Dooku is going to be Palpatine's patsy, and Palpatine is going to shove him and the rest of the Jedi by *loose* association under the bus IN PUBLIC.

If you don't think Nute Gunray is conniving enough to orchestrate this with Sidious, then you obviously never paid attention during my EP I. Most are of the opinion that my Gunray is every bit the equal in the evil department as Vader, Tarkin, and Palpatine.

No, I see it, I still don't buy it. he sounds harder, but he still doesn't come off as anything more than a hired lackey. New dialog in the subtitles doesn't really give the character any more weight. There's some extra menace, but being as you're apparently pretty sensitive to criticism of your creative decisions, I don't know if I should go into any more depth on Gunray's changes.

Meaning that you haven't even seen my versions? I kind of figured that.


You'd figure wrong, but since you're apparently looking for an escape route, feel free to latch onto that one and use it as your out. I know you're looping and cutting dialog--I just don't remember anything specifically looped IN THAT PARTICULAR SCENE AT THE END OF EPISODE II. Not by Windu. Certainly not enough to explain your infighting theory. Unless I'm remembering something wrong, and you want to enlighten me. Considering these are your creative choices now.

This is like the film critic in Sacramento who actually had the nerve to say, "I watched the the trailer for the Two Towers... I don't need to see the film. The whole thing is one big video game. One and a half stars."


This is not at all like that. 1) I've seen your edits. 2) even if I hadn't, it's not as if the footage you're using isn't widely available on DVD. It's not as if nobody's never seen what you're editing from. This is nothing like judging it from a trailer. Not even close. But analogies aren't your strong suit

Really, these edits were made for fans of the OT who didn't like the prequels, to give them a new appreciation for them, not to give prequel gushers something to bitch about. Your precious version is still out there, complete with virgin births, midichlorians, fart jokes, redundant plot, inconsistant pace, that horribly acted and inexplicable love story, and stiff dialogue that yes, in several places has been relooped in my version from production audio and other sources.
Go enjoy it, just as the people here are enjoying mine. Life is too short to waste on senseless arguements over which one is better.


Whoa. Taking it personal much? I'm just discussing your edit with you. I'm not making any sort of personal judgment of you. Although the irony of someone who re-edited someone else's movie getting touchy when he starts facing a fraction of that same criticism isn't lost

But that's not the reason I'm debating it with you. It's not like ALL your cuts and edits are bad. A lot of the stuff you did in Episode II is similar to what Ben Burtt himself did with the IMAX edit of AOTC. And don't be so quick to blindly cast me as some sort of blind prequel "gusher" or whatever, either. You certainly dont' know enough about my stance on Episodes I and II to make anything short of an ill-informed statement as far as that goes. Episodes I and II have a whole bunch of problems. yes, there's fart jokes, virgin births, inconsistent pace, and one of the worst ever love stories put to film (or digital tape) but what I'm trying to discuss with you is that some of your edits DON'T HELP any of that. In fact, they make them worse and in some cases, it's going to seriously foul up what goes down in Episode III.

I mean, if life is too short to argue over plot points and deeper characterization (which is a pretty good debate we're having, by the way, bet you didn't think you could get that in-depth over something so "Shitty and infantile" huh.) then it's DEFINITELY too short to be re-editing already finished movies to the extent you're doing it, right? I mean, not to throw darts, but "time wasting" shouldn't really be an excuse in this instant.

I'm not even really arguing over which is better. I'm only arguing over SPECIFIC elements in YOUR edit relating to YOUR creative choices. Period. There's no reason to plug your ears and bail. This discussion isn't any more meaningless and time wasting than re-editing a movie you don't like. Not in the least. and if you can indulge in that, there's no reason you can't indulge in this, especially since I'm doing my best to keep it aboveboard, strictly friendly and evenhanded.

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These edits ARE being made to be viewed in order as if you've never seen the others before...
Right down to the "I am your father" scene still being a surprise in ESB.
I've already shown my 1 and 2 edits to a few people who know nothing about the original trilogy. Such people do exist.

Secondly, Dooku is still a Jedi.
The order may not acknowledge him, but by that arguement, Luke was never and will never be a Jedi because the order is dead and gone before he confronts Vader.
Hell, Vader is still called a Jedi in Episode IV by both Obi-Wan and Tarkin.
Just because a Christian doesn't belong to a church, doesn't mean they cease to be a Christian.... and just because a Jedi Knight/Master ceases to be a Knight/Master, doesn't mean he's not still a Jedi.

Umm... "shitty and infantile"...
Don't know where you got that quote from.
Those words were never spoken by me.
What was that about putting words into people's mouths?

And its not criticism I'm touchy over.
People have criticised elements of the edits on here before, we make our cases and that is that.
Most of this has been like that Monty Python sketch:
"This isn't an arguement!"
"Yes it is"
"No it isn't! This is just contradiction!"
"No it isn't!"
"Yes it is!"
It just seems as if this whole thing is going nowhere. You keep saying that I ruined the film because of some little smile in one scene of a sequel that hasn't even happened yet. No debate is ever going to change that. It just repeats itself.
"Yes you did!"
"No I didn't!"

As far as fouling up Episode III, I had a friend who said lopping out midichlorians, a virgin birth, and changing the cause for the entire invasion of Naboo would screw up Episode II. Its didn't affect anything at all. Nor will this. I know what happens in George's III. Dooku is dead too quick to really change anything... and then, in his 5 minutes of screentime, they have to reveal him as a Sith yet again to the Jedi, or never make reference to him being a Sith again. Either way it will work out fine, probably without even having to trim anything.

As far as wasting time, the edits of Episode I and II were done because I had no knowledge of how to go about editing whatsoever and wanted to learn. Now I know... seems pretty worthwhile to me.
I turned them in for a project in an editing class I took and the instructor didn't even know how to do some of what I did.
I only made copies of these for a select few people, then those edits were stolen and were being bootlegged at conventions and sold online for like $25 - $50 each.
I passed them along to Rikter and a few others to make them available to people without shelling out money to bootleggers and was invited to this board by a few members to share a little technical insight.
My life is not these edits.

http://twitter.com/TheMagnoliaFan

http://www.youtube.com/user/magnoliafan78

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Bizzle. Welcome to the boards. You are certainly more knowledgable of the trilogy than I am, and I have seen them a 100 times. But, I got to say...what's up with hammering Magnolia? If you don't like his edits, don't watch them. Seriously. And if you've never seen them before, watch them before you criticize. He spent alot of time and put a lot of thought in to these. That is worth merit. And he has given them to us...free. FREE. A LOT OF THOUGHT AND FREE. Two things that do not register with GL these days. I don't agree with everything he did. But no one will. Everyone would do something a little different, especially when the source material is soooo tainted (TPM ESPECIALLY). Like the edits or not, respect him and his efforts. Its another great edition to my collection and certainly, I feel a vast improvement on Episode I and II. I hated Ep. I sooo much, and now with his edit its more than tolerable (I would still like to see less of the CG characters and have Jar Jar's tone of voice changed...though doing the alien voices was brilliant and effective). Episode II went from decent to awesome with his edit (again I might drop the scene with the obnoxious child figuring out the planet being missing and somehow use the scene in the library shorter with different dialogue and drop Dex's scene for the deleted scene with the droids and change the droids to saying they identified it...I hate obnoxoius kids and stupid CG though). ALLLLL of this said. My point is, I may do something slightly different. But I didn't and have neither the time nor the knowledge nor the ability. The fact is, flat out, these are better than what George gave us. And check this. All that work, all that time. He sent them to me (shipping, burning, DVDs) FREE. What edits have you made bizzle? Send them to me. Until then respect him and what he gave us.
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Also, you didn't seem to address the fact that Yoda himself must have been a Dark Lord of the Sith in order to have had knowledge of the rule, as it was put into place AFTER they were wiped out... and that comes from George himself.


If Yoda is meant to be one of strongest Jedi of all time, wouldn't it stand to reason that at some point in his 900 year life, a Sith lord tried to 'convert' Yoda to the darkside, perhaps even Darth Sidious's former master, assuming it's an unbroken lineage of two at any one time.
It would explain Yoda's knowledge of the Sith.
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I think yoda's status as one of the most powerful Jedi ever pretty much precludes the possibility of him ever having been approached by the sith. A Sith lord would have a much easier time turning a younger, less experienced Jedi, or one who clearly cannot maintain total control of his/her/its emotions. Personally, the rule fo 2 makes sense for the prequels, but I think the sith would abandon it as soon as they'd taken over. It's whole purpose was to allow the Sith to survive after the Jedi destroyed them. once the Jedi are gone, the only threat to the Sith's existence is gone, and the rule of 2 can be abandoned.

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Intriguing theory Pagz - I never really considered that due to the Jedi were no more that the rule of 2 for the Sith could be abandoned...

A little patience goes a long way on this old-school Rebel base. If you are having issues finding what you are looking for, these will be of some help…

Welcome to the OriginalTrilogy.com | Introduce yourself in here | Useful info within : About : Help : Site Rules : Fan Project Rules : Announcements
How do I do this?’ on the OriginalTrilogy.com; some info & answers + FAQs - includes info on how to search for projects and threads on the OT•com

A Project Index for Star Wars Preservations (Harmy’s Despecialized & 4K77/80/83 etc) : A Project Index for Star Wars Fan Edits (adywan & Hal 9000 etc)

… and take your time to look around this site before posting - to get a feel for this place. Don’t just lazily make yet another thread asking for projects.

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that just seems to me to be the whole reason behind the rule. The Sith needed to survive, so 1 master 1 apprentice. Hard to detect in such a large galaxy. There is of course the question of whether there could be other sith out there, and that the rule of two refers specifically to pairings. No master having more than one apprentice, but that's another debate. Once the sith have plotted and manipulated long enough to wipe out the jedi, the rule of 2 becomes redundant. No need to hide anymore, they've won.

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Originally posted by: MagnoliaFan

Most of this has been like that Monty Python sketch


No it hasn't
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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What edits have you made bizzle? Send them to me.

Whoa..wait. So okay--what I say doesn't carry any weight with you until I give you some stuff for free? What the hell is that? I don't even really get the point you're making. For one, I'm not HAMMERING the guy. Nor am I disrespecting him. We're talking. He apparently doesn't want to. he says he's not taking it personally, but apparently he is. I apologize for that, it's not my intention. I think the debate springing from his editing choices is pretty good, and I believe it's causing some of the readers here to look at this stuff a little more indepth than before. But it wouldn't be much of a discussion board if all anyone did is pat people on the back for sending them free shit, right?

Besides, about 3 years ago, I re-edited the radio dramas to make them more film like--using original score and sound effects for transitions between parts, cutting out each episodes opening narration and credits, deleting lines here and there that were a little extra corny and/or redundant, and basically making a 13 half hours into four 70 minute (for easy CD burning) parts. Did the same for ESB and ROTJ. And I very freely mailed them out to quite a few people, as well--including a Lucasfilm employee. Apologies that I never got one to you. Apparently, that way, you'd actually consider the points I make instead of dismissing them outright because I didn't hook you up with goodies

anyway, back to the Magnolia Fan:

Right down to the "I am your father" scene still being a surprise in ESB.

There is no way you're going to preserve that. can't happen. Unless you're planning on making a Magnolia Fan edit of Episode IV. Which would, I think, manage to piss off your fanbase here, considering where "here" is.

Ben's speech to Luke in the hut pretty much wraps that all up. There's no way around it--not counting what happens in Episode III (the montage editing of the last few sequences will damn near make it impossible for you to extricate any Anakin/Vader shots to keep the mystery intact). The instant Ben mentions a young pupil of his named Darth Vader destroying his father, it's all over. even a 6 year old would put 2 and 2 together. Ben's only had one pupil. He was a padawan until he got to train Anakin. And then Anakin and Palpatine killed everyone. If the only student Ben ever had was Anakin, then it's pretty obvious who this "Darth Vader" is that he's talking about. Especially if you've watched the first three.

and just because a Jedi Knight/Master ceases to be a Knight/Master, doesn't mean he's not still a Jedi.


According to Mace Windu, it does.

"You do know that Count Dooku was ONCE a Jedi.."

Meaning no longer IS a Jedi. I don't remember if you cut that line or not, to tell the truth. Sorry.

Don't know where you got that quote from.
Those words were never spoken by me.
What was that about putting words into people's mouths?


Oh, c'mon. As if that wasn't your intent. No, you never spoke those specific words. I paraphrased based on the tone of that one paragraph. Would you really describe those movies in the tone and manner you did if you DIDN'T beleive the movies were, in fact, shitty and infantile? Maybe "shitty" is a little harsh, but I like the sound of the word.

You keep saying that I ruined the film


See, this is why I keep thinking you're taking this a lot more personally than you say you are. I never said anything like "your life is these edits" at all, nor did I infer that. But obviously, fan editing films and posting on messageboards are the pastimes of people who aren't exactly TOO worried about "Wasting time."

I haven't said anything like you ruined the film. I'm saying I think some of the choices you made don't fit real well with what's going to come next. And then we get into why. It's certainly more than "no it's not" "Yes it is" because we're going down different roads and branches from that main topic. If you wanna reduce it to "This bickering is pointless" you can, but that feels like a cop-out. You can write that off by using the example of your friend saying cutting out midichlorians would ruin Episode II, but it's obvious that guy didn't know what was really going to go on in Episode II.

I think it's useful, because it shows how some people are considering some things in these prequels "Mistakes" when it's not really a question of "mistake" but a question of being able to interpret the meaning behind the action in the story from more than one simple angle. I think you might have misjudged a couple angles, that's all, and I figured it'd be interesting to find out why you made the choices you did, and see if I can't add to that to maybe show there's a possibility that what you see as a "mistake" isn't exactly a mistake if you're taking it for more than face value.

Shit, it can't hurt
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Once the sith have plotted and manipulated long enough to wipe out the jedi, the rule of 2 becomes redundant. No need to hide anymore, they've won.


And that's a really good theory, actually. very simple. nice
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