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Episode III: Revenge of the Sith (official) — Page 4
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Originally posted by: R2
I see where you're coming from with that. And it does make perfect temporal sense. So, logically, how was the story carried on after the second film? Besides John, what piece of future technology survived in order for the machines to rise? Something tells me that it's not going to be very plausible.
The whole Terminator series is one big paradox after another. That's why I gave up on it after the second one. For me, they changed the future. Judgement Day never happend. End of story. But that's just the way I see it.
That and I just couldn't bear to see the series go down the tubes the way that Alien did. Two Terminators were enough for me. Same with Alien. Should have stopped with the second one.
Also, this has gotten way off topic. LOL!
I agree it has gotton off topic but I just have to say if you haven't seen Terminator 3 how can you come to such a radical conclusion. The moral of Terminator 3 is we are a bunch of worthless insects and are pittiful fighting can only delay the inevidible. This is a message I live by.
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Damn. I think I've given myself a headache.
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Originally posted by: R2
Jimbo, with the very basic understanding of temporal mechanics that I have it just seems illogical for there to be a 3rd Terminator. Especially considering how the 2nd ended. Miles was killed, and the chip was destroyed (all of them). I'm not looking at the philosophical or moral aspect of the story. I looking at it from a purely storytelling viewpoint. The overall arc of the story. Does that make any sense? If, according to the way the 2nd movie ended, they did change the future then how is it possible for another Terminator to travel back in time for the third time? They changed the future. They prevented the invention of Skynet that in turn invented the Terminators. So, given all of that, how then did they explain that the future wasn't changed? I understand that Skynet and John are connected, but there has to be a logical reason as to how (especially given all of the evidence to the contrary), that a third movie is possible. I'm just talking storyline here. It strikes me, knowing how most movies these days are so dumbed down, that the makers of this film would just throw the whole thing out the window and produce a thrid one just for the sake of producing it. Since the end of the story was supposed to be the 2nd film, how is the story carried on? I just want to hear what explanation they gave for how the a Terminator from a future that was prevented by the end of the 2nd film is able to show up again? If that future was prevented this Terminator shouldn't exist. See what I mean? This is what I want to know before I watch the third film. If the explanation isn't plausible, then I'm not going to bother with it.
Damn. I think I've given myself a headache.
Judgement Day is inevidible. Judgement Day being stoped in Terminator 2 puts more plot holes since if the war was stoped why the Hell does John still excist. No Judgement Day means no Kyle. No Kyle means no John. Its a similar principle as shown in the movie The Time Machine. "You built your time machine because of Emas death had she never died it would never have excisted so how can you use your machine to go back and save her." Here its. "You built your time machine because of John Connor had he never lived it would have never excisted so how can you use your machine to kill him" Just see the friggin movie and then you will understand. It explains how the war still happened. If for anything for Kristanna Loken. That girl is so sexy even if you hate the movie she will have been in it to prevent if from being a total waste of time.
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Jimbo, that's what I'm asking you. How did the war still happen after the future altering events of the 2nd movie?
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As T3 shows, Skynet wasn't a single computer or piece of machinery that could just be destroyed. As long as Skynet survived Judgement Day was just postponed.
although the overall message of T3 is the future & the past cannot be changed, what MUST happen, WILL happen.....EVENTUALLY
Evil ugly dudes: "YIPPEEEEEEEEE!!!!"
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Originally posted by: R2
As for T2. It doesn't matter which version you see, they still kill Miles, blow up Skynet and destroy all of the Terminator chips.
Sorry to be a pain here but its actually CYBERDINE systems they blow up, not SKYNET. Skynet is a totally different thing altogether see my last post!
Evil ugly dudes: "YIPPEEEEEEEEE!!!!"
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regardless of plot holes though the 3rd movie still suffered...
Arnold is just not the Terminator anymore... sry but the guy is just not...
most of the action scenes in the movie seemed recycled from the previous 2... ie. transport truck creating mass destruction..
the origin of his clothes is very similar to the 2nd movie but this time he puts on stupid star shaped glasses.... which is supposed to be funny... but fails....
i could go on... i still feel it was the weakest of all...
dont get me wrong it had potential... but they went about it the wrong way...
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the same recycled gags from the second film, Arnie just looked like he was along for the ride.And given the huge budget for the film it had a really cheap B-movie look to it.
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Originally posted by: buddy-x-wing
as far as I'm concerned the Terminator films are a group effort, without James Cameron , Linda Hamilton and Eddie Furlong they really shouldn't have bothered, especially given the lame way they killed off Sarah Connor (dying of cancer before the film) and the ridiculous female terminator.
the same recycled gags from the second film, Arnie just looked like he was along for the ride.And given the huge budget for the film it had a really cheap B-movie look to it.
First of all James Cameron refused to come back. Second of all James Cameron did have no involvement in Terminator 3 but does like the movie he stated. He stated in the same interview he hates Alien 3. Furlong didn't return because he is a friggin pot head. I am not kidding. Don't call Kristanna Loken ridiculous. Shes possibly the most beautiful women I have ever seen and she did a pretty good job at the evil Terminator look. Terminator 3 shares some similaritys to Terminator 2 but alot is very different. Unlike Terminator 2 it shows a willingness to evolve the series rather then simply destroy it.
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Sorry to be a pain here but its actually CYBERDINE systems they blow up, not SKYNET. Skynet is a totally different thing altogether see my last post!
You're right! I forgot that. Shows how long it has been since I watched T2. But didn't Cyberdine Systems produce the Skynet computers? It was, if I remember correctly, developed from the technology of the Terminator chips. Or software that Cyberdine sold to Skynet that was developed from the Terminator. Either way, if they were destroyed, then the basis for the Skynet technology is no longer there. Right? Forget it. No one seems to understand what it is that I want answered. Besides, this whole thing is giving me a headache.
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I went to see T3 with a bunch of Terminator fans - half hated it (and i MEAN hated IT), whilst the others thought it was ok to good, myself - I enjoyed it and found to be more inkeeping with the 1st film than the 2nd.
Interstingly the ending of T3 gives a different complexion on the greater difficulties that John Conner and the Resistance will find in the future in defeating the Machines...
Isn't there meant to be a Special Edition or Director Cut of T3 coming out on dvd soon?
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Don't want to come off as an asshole here. But we've got a bunch of new members joining up each day and we'll have more with this GQ article that Jay was interviewed for, so it would be a good idea for us to keep this thread on topic so people searching for information about Revenge of the Sith actually find it and not a Terminator discussion. Sound semi reasonable?
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Changing the past is impossible.
Time Travel.
The time-theory at work in the first two Terminator films is the very antithesis of the "No Fate" credo. And I'm quite certain that James Cameron was being intentionally ironic in leading his characters to believe that they could avert their fates.
T1 and T2 both operate as a causality loop brought about by a predestination paradox.
I'm not going to attempt to reconcile the events of T3 with The Terminator and T2 because T3 breaks the series' internal logic and time loop theory as laid down by James Cameron with the simple fact that it has moved Judgement Day. That isn't possible in James Cameron's Terminator films as the past cannot be altered only caused.
I'll explain why.
The great irony of the first two films is that as much as the characters would like to believe that "the future is not set" they are wrong.
Cameron's causal loop begins in T1 with the arrival of Terminator and Kyle Reese. Looking at the timeline from a linear and objective standpoint things progress as normal until 1984 when suddenly two travellers, or chrononauts, from 2029 show up.
There was no 'original' and alternate timeline where someone other than Kyle Reese was John's father. There is only the one timeline, the one they're in, and when that timeline hit 1984, these two chrononauts simply show up having been displaced from 2029. The events of the first film take place and Sarah Connor is impregnated, Kyle is killed and the Terminator is destroyed. Then the microprocessor chassis is recovered from the Cyberdyne factory floor and the research into neural-net computers begins, Cyberdyne builds an empire and secures defense contracts including the SkyNet program for SACNORAD. Meanwhile Sarah goes into hiding and gives birth to John who will grow up to one day lead the human resistance to victory against the machines.
The damaged T-800 chip left at the Cyberdyne factory was always the genesis for neural-net processors. Kyle Reese was always John Connor's father and Judgement Day was always August 29th 1997.
Time travel in this universe cannot change the past it can only cause it. Travellers to the past become the cause for events whose effects have always been.
In the T2 Extreme DVD Cameron states that this concept of effect coming before cause, a popular conception of time travel in metaphysical circles, was his intention with both films. The causal loop prohibits change to the past because the traveller travels to their own past. Their OWN past. THE past. The past that has already occurred.
Since the past has already occurred any travel to the past has already occurred. Any 'changes' made by the traveller have already occurred and so the traveller can have no effect on the past.
In T2 (script) we learn that SkyNet has sent a new model Terminator right after it sent the first one, or possibly right before, just before the rebels took out the Cheyenne Mountain SkyNet mainframe and stormed the L.A. based complex.
So the forty-five year old John Connor of 2029 chooses and sends a specific CSM101 T-800 back through time because he remembers its brutal features and the events of 1994 when he was a ten year old kid. He is doing that which he was always going to do. It was predestined, the future may not be set but for adult John meddling with time travel means that it's not over even when it's over. He's caught, not irrevocably, in a causality loop. For his forty-five year old self the unknown future has only just begun.
The Terminator he met when he was a ten year old kid was sent back through time BECAUSE he remembered meeting it when he was a kid, he sent it because he had to, because it had always been sent. The Terminator that he sends was always sent to the past to stop the T-1000 and it always stops the T-1000 from killing young John.
SkyNet should really know better, it should realise that it cannot change the past because the past has happened and it wasn't changed. Sending something back in order to stop something which has happened from happening in this universe is a futile effort. There can be no changes to the timeline only effects whose causes are yet to happen.
Because John is alive and giving SkyNet hell in 2029 his past is safe because he is alive. John knows that when he sends Kyle to 1984 his comrade will become his father, he knows this because his mother told him. Both he and SkyNet are using the Time Displacement Equipment to bring about the causes for events which have already happened. SkyNet has to send the CSM 101 T-800 Terminator to 1984 because there was a CSM 101 T-800 Terminator that arrived in 1984. It failed, but it still had to be sent because it had already arrived, as evidenced by the existing order of past events, aka history. John has to send Kyle because Kyle is his dad.
Apart from Dyson's death in T2 neither the T-1000 nor John's pet Terminator have much effect on the timeline, rather intentionally from Cameron's P.O.V. I'd wager. But since Both CSM101 T-800s, Kyle and the T-1000 all come from a 2029 where Judgement Day occurred, and have all travelled to their own past, aka THE past, the past of their future, that means that Dyson always died in this way on that day in an explosion at the Cyberdyne building.
Unfortunately for his family, his death, although it was always destined to occur the way it did, was a futile death as SkyNet still bombed the world to hell on August 29th 1997.
T3 messes with this timeline. Not just by delaying the date of Judgement Day but whereas in the T2 Extreme DVD commentary Cameron states that T2 takes place at the beginning of 1994 while T3 tries to convince us that John Connor was 13 during the events of the film.
T3 changes the timeline and the very physics laid down in the previous two films by the creator, ("all hail the mighty Jim"), and in order to be consistent you must play by the rules. T3 plays by its own rules and is at odds with the two REAL Terminator films.
This also applies to the changed future coda in the T2 special edition, since the past cannot be changed and everything before the timetravellers began their chronoportation sequences is consideredd the past for them, the 'unwritten future' only truly begins when John finally defeats SkyNet in 2029.
So there you go, I hope this helps.
EDIT: Whoops I just saw Bossk's post about the off-topicness of this discussion, sorry. is there any way to move all the Terminator related responses into a new thread so we can continue on with it elsewhere?
Ummm... about "Revenge Of The Sith" it's a good title, it fits, I like it.
"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." - Goebbels.
"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - Orwell.
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Originally posted by: Bossk
Howsabout you all create a T3 thread in the off topic section and we can keep this one dedicated to "Episode III: Revenge of the Sith (official)" as the name would otherwise imply?
Don't want to come off as an asshole here. But we've got a bunch of new members joining up each day and we'll have more with this GQ article that Jay was interviewed for, so it would be a good idea for us to keep this thread on topic so people searching for information about Revenge of the Sith actually find it and not a Terminator discussion. Sound semi reasonable?
good idea i'll make one
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or the first advertising poster?
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Originally posted by: Luke Skywalker
so anyone know when we're getting the first trailer for this?
or the first advertising poster?
I think first Teaser is in November, or around then. Unless there is a leak.
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i guess we do get that preview on the DVD set in September... so im sure it will be on the net within days...
i just hope its not the Back in Black video...
if so then i've already seen it... haha
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First full on Trailer in March