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my thoughts on originals vs SE...

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Hello everyone, first time poster here but long time lurker...

I hang around TF.N boards alot but hardly ever post on them as I feel the original-original trilogy is something most of the posters on there dont care much for...

Anyway, I replyed to a post on their classic trilogy forum in response to a for/against changes thread and (after 7 years) I've finaly been able to articulate what I dislike about the SE and any future changes to ther original trilogy.

Unfortunatley it looks like my post will be lost in a sea of "I hope Lucas adds some Boba Fett to the Ben/Vader duel in ANH!!! Wouldn't that be so cool!?" type of posts, so I'd thought I'd share them with you. I was replying to Russian guy called Gross-admiral_Thrawn who himself is not too impressed with the changed original trilogy.

Please let me know your thoughts, do you agree with my thoughts or am I widely missing the mark??

Gross-admiral_Thrawn, where I dont agree with you completly about Lucas having no repecct for his actors, I think you're on the right track though. I think Lucas has no respect for the ORIGINAL FILMS themselves. Whereas he loves and respects his creation, to him they're just sketches in regards to his final masterpiece.

What I feel alot of people, like myself and Gross-admiral_Thrawn, who dont like the new changes have problems with are the disrespect to the hard work countless people put into the classic trilogy, from the model makers getting models to look realistic right down to the guy who made R2's wheels work in the sand. Alot of this hard work has now been replaced by digital technology where creating ship is made easier by the create one then copy/paste the next. Now I know the guys who do all the digital work are artists in their own right and have practiced and mastered their own particular craft, but seeing as we're all computer savvy nowadays, (esspecially those of us who hang around chat boards) we can see that its not too difficult to create spaceships, environments, digital characters etc. (I'm a graphic/interactive designer and have played around with Lightwave, After Effects etc) and I feel that alot of the heart of creating 30 ships for a fight sequence took alot longer and more dedication in the 70's/80's than it does now.

To me, Star Wars is only a movie, its not my religion like my friends think, but it was also a massive team effort by countless individuals, and thats what i LOVE about the classic trilogy. I used to love reading interviews of obscure people who worked behind the scenes in Elstree who were responsible for set dressing of a particular scene and the couldn't find something that looked right so they cobbled something together from a shower head and a couple of old engine parts. I love seeing the pictures of the guys in San Fransico in the 70's driving past the model of the Death Star trench while filming it from the back of an old car. I love the fact that these groundbreaking films where made by people using their ingenuity and skill.

And I now feel that the new additions to the trilogy are digitally replacing the heart and soul of the hard work and dedication that countless people (actors/set dressers/model makers/gizmo designers/technitians/engineers and this includes Lucas himself as director) poured into the creation of the original trilogy.

I think this is the what the lovers of the changes cant grasp when we say we hate the changes, we just feel they're erasing the heart and soul of what is a massive team.
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Hi Stale Elvis,

Completely agree with you m8 - though I don't mind the SE's or whatever version GL will be bringing out in the future (though a hefty discount would be appreciated!), but for me he IS insulting the people who worked on the original edits of the Trilogy - and by not releasing them onto the latest formats denying many people a chance to see them as they were originally meant to be.

I wonder how the people who worked on those films feel now - when they are basically informed their work was replaced as it wasn't deemed up to scratch any more...? or maybe that it just wasn't good enough for GL? The awards they won and the ideas and development from them onto other films and tv series have been lost too - for CGI that will no doubt be outdated itself in another 10 years...

I prefer to see actors act against/with each other on a set with backgrounds already yhtere - not a CGI wall where it seems they're not sure what is going on - ie Eps 1&2 - and it is a shame that this has taken something futher away from the quality, meaning and continuity of eps 1&2.

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thanks for replyin oojason.

am i right in thinking you're a fellow scouser???
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I am indeed - from Speke, though been living in the Midlands for a long time now.

Has certainlty been interesting times recently supporting the RedMen of late...

Are you looking forward to the new season with hope or fear - or something in between?

A little patience goes a long way on this old-school Rebel base. If you are having issues finding what you are looking for, these will be of some help…

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‘How do I do this?’ on the OriginalTrilogy.com; some info & answers + FAQs - includes info on how to search for projects and threads on the OT•com

A Project Index for Star Wars Preservations (Harmy’s Despecialized & 4K77/80/83 etc) : A Project Index for Star Wars Fan Edits (adywan & Hal 9000 etc)

… and take your time to look around this site before posting - to get a feel for this place. Don’t just lazily make yet another thread asking for projects.

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These thoughts are no different then the thoughts of most people on this site. Its an arguement I hear a thousand times. It has some truth and logic to it but there are just as many arguements against it. It really doesn't matter since George doesn't care.
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once again jimbo is an asshole to a new member who puts his ideas out there...
and please jimbo since you are such an intelligent person when it comes to things like this... give us some arguments against it...
as you said in your post...

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there are just as many arguements against it.


so go ahead and indulge us with your ideas... i cant wait to hear them...

and as for Lucas not caring... thats fine... i dont give a shit what he thinks either..
the guy has ruined the only movie for which he is known...
i think thats punishment enough for him...

as to Stale Elvis, WELCOME TO THE BOARDS MAN!
Glad to have you here!


i totally agree with everything your saying...
what im kinda curious about is if the people who did work which was not shown in the SE are still given credit in the credits...
get me??
i've gotta check up on both the OT and SE credits and see if anyone is missing..
"Never. I'll never turn to the darkside. You've failed your highness. I am a jedi, like my father before me."
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Welcome to the boards. I completely agree with everything you said. That's one of the main problems I have with Lucas refusing to release the original, unedited trilogy on DVD. He's digitally erasing the hard work and effort of countless people. That, and the fact that he's attempting to bury a classic and hugely influential piece of film history.
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I too agree. Part of the reason I loved the films so much is the dedication that was put into the model work. I'm still awed by the effects in Jedi, the stop motion in Empire, and all the other details they did. I saw Spiderman 2 the other day, and John Dykstra continues to prove that he still has an eye for things. If anything, George should at least go the Star Trek I route. Every shot that was replaced was put in anamorphic widescreen on the DVD. The documentry goes so far as to say that they only finished what wasn't, and that they respected the work that went into it. At least this way, they're work is preseved. Lucas' current attitude is along the lines of, "who cares what they did". Which is sad, as I use to respect the guy much more than I do now. Welcome to the forum, though I'm a newby here myself.


Made for IE Forum's Episode III theme month - May 2005.

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Originally posted by: Luke Skywalker
once again jimbo is an asshole to a new member who puts his ideas out there...
and please jimbo since you are such an intelligent person when it comes to things like this... give us some arguments against it...
as you said in your post...

Quote
there are just as many arguements against it.


so go ahead and indulge us with your ideas... i cant wait to hear them...

and as for Lucas not caring... thats fine... i dont give a shit what he thinks either..
the guy has ruined the only movie for which he is known...
i think thats punishment enough for him...

as to Stale Elvis, WELCOME TO THE BOARDS MAN!
Glad to have you here!


i totally agree with everything your saying...
what im kinda curious about is if the people who did work which was not shown in the SE are still given credit in the credits...
get me??
i've gotta check up on both the OT and SE credits and see if anyone is missing..


Alright the main arguement against it is that the original versions are work prints. Lucas could release five or six versions to show how the movie evolved or just show the final version. As for the original work being replaced its not the first time that happened in movies. You ever hear of deleted scenes. Often an actor or character will make an appearance in deleted scenes and then be deleted. How is this different. Its something that happens with just about all movies. Plus very few of the Special Edition changes actually erases original effects. For example in Hoth snow battle deleting the matte lines around the ships isn't destroying the original work. Those were never meant to be shown. Also the rings around the ships didn't cover up any of the exsisting work on the explosion just added to it. The most of the so called replacing is effects that are just bad. For example replacing those model dewbacks was great because frankly I didn't even know the original dewbacks were suppose to be creatures. Or replacing the white bloob ships with detailed digital models.

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I'm fairly new here, but I've been reading lots of posts over the last four days or so. I have also already posted my thoughts on the OT vs SE so I won't restate all of that here. If you want to read it go to the Changes in the 2004 DVD thread and go to the last page.

I'm sorry, but the argument that the OT are work prints is just BS. First of all you don't release work prints for the general public to view. Those are for the director, studio execs, editors, sound editor, ect. That's why they are called work prints. If I remember correctly, and please tell me if I'm wrong, but the OT was released into theatres as finished, completed films. The SE are more along the lines of a Directors Cut, but then that doesn't even trully describe them. From my understanding, a Director's Cut is a version of the film that has re-edits of scenes, trims, and the possible insertion of scenes that were originally filmed but for one reason or another were cut from the film. In that case, the only scenes that were cut from ANH and reinserted are the Han and Jabba scene and the Luke and Biggs scene in the Rebel Base. Everything else that was added to these films is BRAND NEW footage that George has 'decided' that needs to be there in order to show his original vision for the films. Fine. However, since the OT was released in theatres these are NOT work prints.

Secondly, no one is arguing that the clean up of matte lines, boxes around the ships, ect are the problem with the SEs of the movies. What everyone dislikes is the complete removal of special effects or models and replaced by CGI. Even the inhancement of certain scenes with CGI is problematic at best. Like the Sarlaac pit, Jabba in ANH and the Han and Greedo scene just to name a few. For myself, most of these changes were just unnessesary and useless while others were just plain dreadful. You can preach until you are blue in the face, but that Jedi Rocks number in Jedi sucks. Period.

It those kinds of things that make the SEs not so special. Finally, the only reason these films are 'evolving' is because GL has a bug up his ass. They were just fine for 20 years. The man has been smoking plant vapors.
Keeping The Star Wars Hoiliday Special alive. Once person at a time. Stir, stir, whip, whip, stir, beat, beat.
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The Jedi Rocks scene was originally attempted. In the Special Edition documentary we see stock footage of such a scene being attempted. I don't like this change either but lets face it Return of the Jedi is by far the worst Star Wars flick. Stuff that was always there is far worse. I am also so happy he got rid of that horrendous ewok song. The Sarlacc pit is one of my favorite changes. It works well with the original footage and really makes that thing so much more alive.
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The "deleted scenes" argument really doesn't work for the Special Editions. Lucas didn't restore a bunch of scenes that were originally cut out from the theatrical editions (except for the Biggs and Jabba scenes). Most of the newly added scenes in the Special Editions were made specifically for the Special Editions, they weren't originally shot when the movies were being filmed. Also, not all of the new things in the Special Editions are newly inserted scenes. A lot of them are already-existing scenes that Lucas decided to "improve" (Greedo shooting first, Luke screaming as he fell, badly-done CGI in Mos Eisley and Cloud City, the Sarlaac's beak, and so on). And some of the already-exisiting scenes were replaced altogether by new, digital ones. The main one that comes to mind right now is the Battle of Yavin. Some of the old shots are kept intact, but most of them are now new, digital shots (even though most were based on the original shots).

So our problem with Special Editions isn't that Lucas is adding in deleted scenes (the Jabba scene and the Biggs scene, which were pretty much the only REAL deleted scenes - all the others were made just for the SEs). It's that he's modifying already existing shots and sometimes replacing them with new, digital shots.

And by the way, I completely disagree about Return of the Jedi being the worst Star Wars movie. Worst of the original trilogy, possibly, but certainly not the worst of all of them.
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You oviously didn't understand my arguement. I am saying is in every movie with deleted scenes filmmakers work is lost. How is there work being lost in making Special Editions any worse. And yes Return of the Jedi is the worst Star Wars movie. Return of the Jedi has alot more responsiblity ending the series then The Phantom Menace does beginning it.
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The thing that makes it different is that in the SEs, the previous scenes aren't being deleted/replaced because of time or budget reasons, they're being purposely erased by Lucas, and replaced with digital effects.

And deleted scenes are normally included as part of the special features section of the DVDs, so people can still see them. In the case of the SEs, Lucas is attempting to bury the scenes he replaced.

And I still disagree with you about Return of the Jedi being the worst. Personally, I think The Phantom Menace is the worst (even though I don't hate it) and I'd pick Return of the Jedi over it any day. And Return of the Jedi wasn't even originally supposed to be the end of the Star Wars saga, it was originally going to be a nine-part saga, but now Lucas has said he's not doing the other three parts.
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I may prefer it to The Phantom Menace if it wasn't the end. Return of the Jedi is just not an ending to the series. Even then its still very much inferior to great cinema like The Empire Strikes Back, A New Hope, or Attack of the Clones.
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i agree that the OT were not working prints jimbo so i dont know what your talking about...

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Return of the Jedi has alot more responsiblity ending the series then The Phantom Menace does beginning it.


right...??
because if the first movie doesnt develope any characters or give us any direction as to what the movie is about than the series can continue with no problems is what your saying?
but as long as it has a cool ending things are fine right?

please tell me that your wrong when u posted that... because i have a feeling you just didnt think about it before you wrote it...
"Never. I'll never turn to the darkside. You've failed your highness. I am a jedi, like my father before me."
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The Phantom Menace is really inferior to A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back, and Attack of the Clones is because it has alot to set up. It has to introduce this bizzare universe. Being able to introduce a story that large and still be good is a challenge but Lucasfilm pulled it off.
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looks cool but those trailers explained absolutly nothing about the movie..
they were more of gag reels...
anyone know what this movie is about??
"Never. I'll never turn to the darkside. You've failed your highness. I am a jedi, like my father before me."
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Welcome, Stale Elvis! I'll echo Luke, and hope that Jimbo doesn't scare you away. I've spent more time reading the TFN boards than I care to think about, and I'm really fed up with the pro-Lucas talk you come across in every place where they discuss the original trilogy. I'm thinking of leaving the Classic Trilogy section for good and start posting somewhere where the posters are simply trying to have fun discussing the stories and the entire universe. I wonder if Lucas understands how much of a rift he's created in the Star Wars community, and even if he does, I'm sure he doesn't care.
I agree with you completely. If you have a copy of 1977's The Making of Star Wars, sit down and watch it sometime. It was made without hindsight, and gives you a feeling of what the original sentiments of Lucas and others were at the very beginning. You also get a sense of just how resourceful the effects people had to be with the technology they had at the time. The cinematic miracles they managed to achieve are now being erased, one special edition at a time, however. I know one of the effects that Lucas complained most about in ANH was the vasoline smudge under Luke's landspeeder, and yet I find that it was a creative solution to a problem, and it worked. It took more creativity and originality to think up the concept and say, 'Hey, why don't we smudge it out with vasoline?' then to say, 'Ah, hell, don't worry about the undercarriage of the landspeeder. We'll just take it out on the computer.' Do I hate the Special Editions? No, but I do hate that the dedication of the original crew members on the set of the movies are having their hard work wiped from the record.

By the way, Jimbo, some people actually feel Return of the Jedi is the best of the movies. If you want people to respect your opinion of AOTC being a masterpiece, don't slam ROTJ. Each of these films is someone's favorite in the saga, after all.
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I used to believe Return of the Jedi was best as a little kid but I grew up unlike many.
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Originally posted by: jimbo
I used to believe Return of the Jedi was best as a little kid but I grew up unlike many.


And I thought Attack of the Clones was the best Star Wars movie when it first came out, but then I grew up.
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I myself like the special edtions and the original versions I'm just happy the star wars trilogy is coming out on dvd no matter what version or what changes are being made to the flims. The people who complan about the changes or the special edtion need to stop worrieing george lucas is the one who made these flims and if you don't like the changes deal with it.
Kenneth Kraly Jr.
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The problem Luke30, is that not just Lucas made these films. Lots of talented people were involved, and Lucas is acting like they weren't. He didn't even direct ESB and ROTJ, yet made changes to them as well. It's not like an author revising some paragraphs, we're talking the work of many not even getting a "deleted scenes" reel.


Made for IE Forum's Episode III theme month - May 2005.