logo Sign In

A Series of Questions for Socialism's Proponents

Author
Date
Author
Time
Post link
Since the Politics thread seems to be dead and buried, I thought I'd post this outside of it's confines.

There has been an ongoing debate on this board about the "workability" of socialism v capitalism, and vise versa. It's no secret that I'm utterly in the camp of the latter, so you all know where I'm coming from.

Here I propose a series of questions for the proponents of socialism on the board. I'm not trying to start flame wars, etc. I'm sincerely interested in your answers to these questions. Lets keep it civil.

1. Since socialst nations have existed in the past and failed, what do you attribute their failure to? Is it reasonable to believe that these "obstacles" can be overcome in the short term?

2. Were any of these nations imperialistic in nature, meaning did they expand beyond their national borders and conquer territory not in their possession prior to the Bolshevic revolution of the early part of the 20th century?

3. Were there "exceptions" to the socialist philosophies of these countries, meaning did any of the ruling class own nice automobiles or houses that were well beyond "....his needs"?

4. If inequitable distribution of wealth is the cause of crime and social injustice, how do you explain people who are wealthy that committ crimes?

5. Is brute labor the only force that is essential to the prosperity and equality of a society?

6. If wealth were to be "redistributed" from the "20%" of the world's population that control it, and then given to the other 80%, will despotic rulers and tyrants be disposed to give this wealth to their people, or keep it for themselves?

7. If they did give the money to their citizens, would the social and physical infrastructure of these other nations immediately improve? If so, how?

8. What incentive does a person who has guaranteed health care, housing, food, water, and clothing have to strive for a better life?

9. For socialism to be truly implemented, the government must assume vast powers. Once assumed, what guarantee is there that the government will not abuse these powers?

10. Do people try to accumulate more or less power?

11. What if 1 or 2 people in said country decided they didn't feel socialism was right for them. Would the government be justified in using any and all means to implement the system for the greater good?

12. Is force justifiable in the redistribution of wealth?

13. In a socialist system, who's interests should/will take precedence in case of child rearing? Parents, or the State?

14. Should religious institutions be permitted in socialist societies?

15. Of the examples the world has known so far, socialism as implemented in Cuba, China, North Korea, Soviet Union, etc; and capitalism as seen in the US, UK, Australia, etc: Which has offered the greater personal liberties to it's citizens?

16. Given that the socialist death toll is at 100 million and counting, vastly outpacing "facist" numbers, does socialism get a free pass because it's more "altruistic"...at least on the surface? Can any ideology that results in the death of even one life be considered to be altruisitic?

17. What is the difference between Facism and Communism? Do they not both lead to state control of the economy, thus making ideologies irrelevant?

18. What is the difference between Marxist-Leninism vs Communism and can the more "pure" forms be implemented without innevitably deteriorating to totalitarianism?

I'm sure more questions will come to me, but for now I think that's enough.

Reminder: Let's keep it civil and have a nice discussion. I'm looking forward to the answers.
Nemo me impune lacessit

http://ttrim.blogspot.com
Author
Time
Post link
That was quite one-sided, but it's ok. By the way, let me have this clear: socialism IS the best system, if it worked. It dosen't work due to greed. It dosen't work because there IS capitalism around, and people are seduced by the greed of having more. So let me try answering those the best way I can (and as fast as I can, dont wanna take too long):

1. Since socialst nations have existed in the past and failed, what do you attribute their failure to? Is it reasonable to believe that these "obstacles" can be overcome in the short term?

Failed due to economical imbalance, improper investments in a war machine, personal greed, tyrany, inability to cope with today's globalized market.

2. Were any of these nations imperialistic in nature, meaning did they expand beyond their national borders and conquer territory not in their possession prior to the Bolshevic revolution of the early part of the 20th century?

USSR did but not after the period you have mentioned... China did... That's pretty much it.

3. Were there "exceptions" to the socialist philosophies of these countries, meaning did any of the ruling class own nice automobiles or houses that were well beyond "....his needs"?

Not so present in China. A bit in Russia, yes... But most present in Cuba.

4. If inequitable distribution of wealth is the cause of crime and social injustice, how do you explain people who are wealthy that committ crimes?

Drugs, greed, passion crimes, and insanity. Pretty much it.

5. Is brute labor the only force that is essential to the prosperity and equality of a society?

Uh... no. Point is?

6. If wealth were to be "redistributed" from the "20%" of the world's population that control it, and then given to the other 80%, will despotic rulers and tyrants be disposed to give this wealth to their people, or keep it for themselves?

If they are nice enough... Theorically yes, logically no.

7. If they did give the money to their citizens, would the social and physical infrastructure of these other nations immediately improve? If so, how?

Asuming we keep a trade market, leveling up the poor would boost what is consumed and therefore generate income for the government to improve infrastructure. Not to say that some people would finally have a dignant life. So yes, it would.

8. What incentive does a person who has guaranteed health care, housing, food, water, and clothing have to strive for a better life?

If they have that, not only as a guarantee on a paper, why would they need it?

9. For socialism to be truly implemented, the government must assume vast powers. Once assumed, what guarantee is there that the government will not abuse these powers?

None. Ethics. That's why it dosen't work.

10. Do people try to accumulate more or less power?

More power, less responsability. Power is not the problem. I would love if we had a single tyrant that ruled the world, but did good things.

11. What if 1 or 2 people in said country decided they didn't feel socialism was right for them. Would the government be justified in using any and all means to implement the system for the greater good?

No. But they could say "If you are not happy, get out of here and go live in France!", sounds familiar anyway.

12. Is force justifiable in the redistribution of wealth?

If you mean violence then no.

13. In a socialist system, who's interests should/will take precedence in case of child rearing? Parents, or the State?

At school, state. Outside school, parents.

14. Should religious institutions be permitted in socialist societies?

Why not?

15. Of the examples the world has known so far, socialism as implemented in Cuba, China, North Korea, Soviet Union, etc; and capitalism as seen in the US, UK, Australia, etc: Which has offered the greater personal liberties to it's citizens?

US, UK, Australia. See above why.

16. Given that the socialist death toll is at 100 million and counting, vastly outpacing "facist" numbers, does socialism get a free pass because it's more "altruistic"...at least on the surface? Can any ideology that results in the death of even one life be considered to be altruisitic?

I don't remember reading on Karl Marx works that genocide was necessary. Don't mix up the system, to whom has tried to apply it.

17. What is the difference between Facism and Communism? Do they not both lead to state control of the economy, thus making ideologies irrelevant?

Who do you think controls the economy in the US? Or UK? Or Australia? Facism is a ruling policy, comunism is an economical and social system.

18. What is the difference between Marxist-Leninism vs Communism and can the more "pure" forms be implemented without innevitably deteriorating to totalitarianism?

Wow. School's final test deja vu. I feel I am not entitled to answer that correctly, so I won't. I am not sure how can it be implemented with deteriorating it to a facist regime.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: ricarleite


That was quite one-sided, but it's ok.

I wasn't trying to be even-handed. I thought the title made it clear.

It dosen't work because there IS capitalism around

So it doesn't work because of a competing system?

1. Since socialst nations have existed in the past and failed, what do you attribute their failure to? Is it reasonable to believe that these "obstacles" can be overcome in the short term?

Failed due to economical imbalance, improper investments in a war machine, personal greed, tyrany, inability to cope with today's globalized market.

Does the system's obvious weaknesses (failure to meet changing market forces, inability to cope with human nature(greed, laziness, etc)) not mean that it's NOT the best system? Or are we talking "theory" or "on paper" socialism?

2. Were any of these nations imperialistic in nature, meaning did they expand beyond their national borders and conquer territory not in their possession prior to the Bolshevic revolution of the early part of the 20th century?

USSR did but not after the period you have mentioned

What about the BLOC states it obsorbed during and after WWII (Hungary, Romania, East Germany, Ukraine, etc)?

China did

North Korea and Vietnam as well.

4. If inequitable distribution of wealth is the cause of crime and social injustice, how do you explain people who are wealthy that committ crimes?

Drugs, greed, passion crimes, and insanity. Pretty much it.

Is there a moral component in society that gives people a sense of right and wrong or is that a state issue?

5. Is brute labor the only force that is essential to the prosperity and equality of a society?

Uh... no. Point is?

See point below re: incentive to strive.

8. What incentive does a person who has guaranteed health care, housing, food, water, and clothing have to strive for a better life?

If they have that, not only as a guarantee on a paper, why would they need it?


Because in a system in which everyone gets "...according to his needs", why would anyone need.....the new Power MAC or Nintendo Revolution (I refuse to call it Wii) when the Commodore 64 will do the job? According to his needs puts a glass ceiling on innovation. The progress the soviets made in the space race was due to the needs of the state, not the needs of any individual.

9. For socialism to be truly implemented, the government must assume vast powers. Once assumed, what guarantee is there that the government will not abuse these powers?

None. Ethics. That's why it dosen't work.


Should it continue to be persued given it's shortcomings?

10. Do people try to accumulate more or less power?

More power, less responsability. Power is not the problem. I would love if we had a single tyrant that ruled the world, but did good things.


I've had that discussion as well. A benevolent dictator....sadly not to happen (in our lifetime, at least).

11. What if 1 or 2 people in said country decided they didn't feel socialism was right for them. Would the government be justified in using any and all means to implement the system for the greater good?

No. But they could say "If you are not happy, get out of here and go live in France!", sounds familiar anyway.


Is coersion via "Go live in France" an acceptable substitute for violence?

13. In a socialist system, who's interests should/will take precedence in case of child rearing? Parents, or the State?

At school, state. Outside school, parents.


Does the state's interests lie in perpetuation of the system in spite of it's shortcomings? Should the state provide moral or ethical teachings that contradict those of a parent?

14. Should religious institutions be permitted in socialist societies?

Why not?


Because they teach that there's a higher power than the state, and typically socialist countries are unwelcoming to religious insitutions.

16. Given that the socialist death toll is at 100 million and counting, vastly outpacing "facist" numbers, does socialism get a free pass because it's more "altruistic"...at least on the surface? Can any ideology that results in the death of even one life be considered to be altruisitic?

I don't remember reading on Karl Marx works that genocide was necessary. Don't mix up the system, to whom has tried to apply it.


No, but Marx's disciples have been implementing murder on a massive scale since the October Revolution.

17. What is the difference between Facism and Communism? Do they not both lead to state control of the economy, thus making ideologies irrelevant?

Who do you think controls the economy in the US? Or UK? Or Australia? Facism is a ruling policy, comunism is an economical and social system.


Right, but they both result in totalitarian control OF the economy.

"Supporting socialism for fear of facism is suicide for fear of death" - Not sure who said it but I LOVE it.
Nemo me impune lacessit

http://ttrim.blogspot.com
Author
Time
Post link
Looks like Sage and Ric have both sides of this argument well under control, which leaves me to add what seems to have become my catch phrase when discussing politics - it all comes down to human nature, and human nature sucks.

In short, it would be great if we could all get along and share, but we can't, so we won't.

War does not make one great.

Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: Yoda Is Your Father
Looks like Sage and Ric have both sides of this argument well under control, which leaves me to add what seems to have become my catch phrase when discussing politics - it all comes down to human nature, and human nature sucks.

In short, it would be great if we could all get along and share, but we can't, so we won't.


To quote Roger Reese and Dom Delouise from Robinhood: Men in Tights - "You put that Succinctly" "Suck what?"

Well said YIYF.

My point of contention has always been that if we know the system won't work, why waste the resources trying to achieve it? Instead, work the current system to make it as equitable as possible while maintaining individual liberties.
Nemo me impune lacessit

http://ttrim.blogspot.com
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: JediSage
Since the Politics thread seems to be dead and buried, I thought I'd post this outside of it's confines.


it doesn't seem to be. I just posted there.


Originally posted by: Yoda Is Your Father
Looks like Sage and Ric have both sides of this argument well under control, which leaves me to add what seems to have become my catch phrase when discussing politics - it all comes down to human nature, and human nature sucks.

In short, it would be great if we could all get along and share, but we can't, so we won't.


I agree

Originally posted by: JediSage


My point of contention has always been that if we know the system won't work, why waste the resources trying to achieve it? Instead, work the current system to make it as equitable as possible while maintaining individual liberties.


this does seem logical to me. Although I disagree with Jedisage on how to "work the system"
Author
Time
Post link
(the following may not make too much sense as my head's been spinning from the OT chess tournament and other PC stuff today, but...)

I basically view socialism as a coming together of a community or group of like-minded people to acheive something for the which will benefit the group or their surroundings.

Many of the questions posed by JediSage can also be applied to capitalism - corrupted Western politicians with ties to private companies giving them lucrative government contracts in return for a place on the director's board after their political lives are over - at the expense of the people they are elected to help...

Each system has it's corruption and weaknesses - people are dying in Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia and many other places in the world because of the greed and power of Western governemnts and an unwillingness to get involved because it may be unpopular - and they may lose their power by being voted out by the electorate. On the other scale we have governments getting too involved in other countries affairs - and give reasons as stability and fuel as reasons why they should take matters into their own hands.

Besides, in a capitalist world it seems as long as people have a nice house, car, holidays, a big tv and are subjected to the mindnumbing blandness that appears on the majority of it, nearly everyone under capitialism are content - many of which have a 'so what' attitiude to the preventable and addressable horrific events that take place around the world.


I have to say it is communism - not socialism that is enforced in places such as China by the Government. The people do not decide for themselves what is to be done for their betterment - it is a regime that anwers to no-one (which could also be corrupt) - and that is NOT socialism.

Socialism is, and can be, democratic - if it was so I'm confident they wouldn't vote to exile thousands of people many years to Siberia for not agreeing with others, many more missing and liked in China.

(have to stop here for now - time for an anadin)

A little patience goes a long way on this old-school Rebel base. If you are having issues finding what you are looking for, these will be of some help…

Welcome to the OriginalTrilogy.com | Introduce yourself in here | Useful info within : About : Help : Site Rules : Fan Project Rules : Announcements
‘How do I do this?’ on the OriginalTrilogy.com - includes info on how to ask for a fan project and how to search for projects and threads on OT•com.

A Project Index for Star Wars Preservations (Harmy’s Despecialized & 4K77/80/83 etc) : A Project Index for Star Wars Fan Edits (adywan & Hal 9000 etc)

Take your time to look around this site before posting… Do NOT just lazily make yet another ‘link request’ post - or a new thread asking for projects.

Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: oojason

I have to say it is communism - not socialism that is enforced in places such as China by the Government. The people do not decide for themselves what is to be done for their betterment - it is a regime that anwers to no-one (which could also be corrupt) - and that is NOT socialism.


Well, therein lies one of my biggest qualms with the system. For socialism to work it must be something agreed to by everyone. For this reason, socialism won't work at a national level without some form of coersion--few people will agree to giving everything to the state.

This is why socialist experiments on a national level always have some form of totalitarianism in the government, usually communism.

4

Author
Time
Post link
^ you can have a democratic socialism on a national level - the UK Labour Party is a socialist movement (though seemingly not over the past 10 years - from my own point of view) - and is currently in power in the UK.

You can vote them in, you can vote them out - no coersion - no one is imprisoned for having a different belief etc.

Local councils run government at a more accessible (and local) level - though there are corrupt and greedy politicians from all political parties - and differing beliefs.

A little patience goes a long way on this old-school Rebel base. If you are having issues finding what you are looking for, these will be of some help…

Welcome to the OriginalTrilogy.com | Introduce yourself in here | Useful info within : About : Help : Site Rules : Fan Project Rules : Announcements
‘How do I do this?’ on the OriginalTrilogy.com - includes info on how to ask for a fan project and how to search for projects and threads on OT•com.

A Project Index for Star Wars Preservations (Harmy’s Despecialized & 4K77/80/83 etc) : A Project Index for Star Wars Fan Edits (adywan & Hal 9000 etc)

Take your time to look around this site before posting… Do NOT just lazily make yet another ‘link request’ post - or a new thread asking for projects.

Author
Time
Post link
* sigh * I hate editing quotes...

Originally posted by: JediSage

It dosen't work because there IS capitalism around
So it doesn't work because of a competing system?

Hmn, well, in a way, yes, but not exactly as to competition. It's kinda like, you have a black and white 14 inches TV set, and right next to you, ready to be plugged, a nice 50 inches widescreen plasma 1080p HDTV. Not sure the analogy was 100% effective but still...

Originally posted by: JediSage

1. Since socialst nations have existed in the past and failed, what do you attribute their failure to? Is it reasonable to believe that these "obstacles" can be overcome in the short term?

Failed due to economical imbalance, improper investments in a war machine, personal greed, tyrany, inability to cope with today's globalized market.

Does the system's obvious weaknesses (failure to meet changing market forces, inability to cope with human nature(greed, laziness, etc)) not mean that it's NOT the best system? Or are we talking "theory" or "on paper" socialism?


I agree. Maybe the system takes some stuff for granted.

Originally posted by: JediSage

2. Were any of these nations imperialistic in nature, meaning did they expand beyond their national borders and conquer territory not in their possession prior to the Bolshevic revolution of the early part of the 20th century?

USSR did but not after the period you have mentioned

What about the BLOC states it obsorbed during and after WWII (Hungary, Romania, East Germany, Ukraine, etc)?


I was sort of considering them to be part of the iron curtain, therefore USSR, but yes.

Originally posted by: JediSage

China did

North Korea and Vietnam as well.


Vietnan merely took the whole country as a whole. And what did North Korea conquer?

Originally posted by: JediSage

4. If inequitable distribution of wealth is the cause of crime and social injustice, how do you explain people who are wealthy that committ crimes?

Drugs, greed, passion crimes, and insanity. Pretty much it.

Is there a moral component in society that gives people a sense of right and wrong or is that a state issue?


Basically, moral, based on ethics, education, good social conditions, and stuff like that.

Originally posted by: JediSage

5. Is brute labor the only force that is essential to the prosperity and equality of a society?

Uh... no. Point is?

See point below re: incentive to strive.


OK...

Originally posted by: JediSage

8. What incentive does a person who has guaranteed health care, housing, food, water, and clothing have to strive for a better life?

If they have that, not only as a guarantee on a paper, why would they need it?

Because in a system in which everyone gets "...according to his needs", why would anyone need.....the new Power MAC or Nintendo Revolution (I refuse to call it Wii) when the Commodore 64 will do the job? According to his needs puts a glass ceiling on innovation. The progress the soviets made in the space race was due to the needs of the state, not the needs of any individual.


Totally agree. Thing is, what do you prefer, to play with the Wii while children are starving next door, or to play with the Commodore knowing everyone has one? Should we sacrifice "progress" for the well-being of the rest of the world? Also, is it really necessary to? What exactly would be sacrificed? Electronic goods?

Originally posted by: JediSage

9. For socialism to be truly implemented, the government must assume vast powers. Once assumed, what guarantee is there that the government will not abuse these powers?

None. Ethics. That's why it dosen't work.


Should it continue to be persued given it's shortcomings?


If at first you don't succeed... than dust yourself and try again! You can dust it off and try again, try again...

Seriously now, should we continue to persue wars given it's shortcomings? And please don't answer that only at the point of view of the war winners...

But, on the other hand, I agree that a socialist society, let alone a communist one, is sort of uthopic, not due to flaws on how it is done, but on the behaviour of men. It asumes we'll all behave. Maybe some years in the future we will, if we don't nuke ourselves before that.

Originally posted by: JediSage

10. Do people try to accumulate more or less power?

More power, less responsability. Power is not the problem. I would love if we had a single tyrant that ruled the world, but did good things.


I've had that discussion as well. A benevolent dictator....sadly not to happen (in our lifetime, at least).


The dictator from Qatar is quite a nice fellow. Again, seriously speaking, it is possible. Isn't the Queen of England a nice person? Oh, uh... bad example. The British Royal Family, when they had political power, did some nasty things. Not to its own people, but still...

Originally posted by: JediSage

11. What if 1 or 2 people in said country decided they didn't feel socialism was right for them. Would the government be justified in using any and all means to implement the system for the greater good?

No. But they could say "If you are not happy, get out of here and go live in France!", sounds familiar anyway.


Is coersion via "Go live in France" an acceptable substitute for violence?


Works in the US of A.

Originally posted by: JediSage

13. In a socialist system, who's interests should/will take precedence in case of child rearing? Parents, or the State?

At school, state. Outside school, parents.


Does the state's interests lie in perpetuation of the system in spite of it's shortcomings? Should the state provide moral or ethical teachings that contradict those of a parent?


That's like when religious parents dosen't want their child to study Darwin at school. Home school then, if you want to.

Originally posted by: JediSage

14. Should religious institutions be permitted in socialist societies?

Why not?


Because they teach that there's a higher power than the state, and typically socialist countries are unwelcoming to religious insitutions.


Brazil was under a bloody, brutal dictatorship from 1964 to 1985 and supported the Church 100%. Also, a democratic socialist regime would have NO need to ban religion. Don't mix up the SYSTEM with FASCISM, there are facist regimes with no socialism envolvement at all.

Originally posted by: JediSage

16. Given that the socialist death toll is at 100 million and counting, vastly outpacing "facist" numbers, does socialism get a free pass because it's more "altruistic"...at least on the surface? Can any ideology that results in the death of even one life be considered to be altruisitic?

I don't remember reading on Karl Marx works that genocide was necessary. Don't mix up the system, to whom has tried to apply it.


No, but Marx's disciples have been implementing murder on a massive scale since the October Revolution.


Idi Amin Dada was also a mass murderer and not a socialist. Don't mix up the system with the crimes.

Originally posted by: JediSage

17. What is the difference between Facism and Communism? Do they not both lead to state control of the economy, thus making ideologies irrelevant?

Who do you think controls the economy in the US? Or UK? Or Australia? Facism is a ruling policy, comunism is an economical and social system.


Right, but they both result in totalitarian control OF the economy.


But in different ways.

Originally posted by: JediSage

"Supporting socialism for fear of facism is suicide for fear of death" - Not sure who said it but I LOVE it.


If socialism has resulted into people getting killed, and we should ban it from the world, why not ban cars or guns?

BY THE WAY, I support a free market capitalist society. I focus on PEACE and on making sure resources get everywhere. So before anyone calls me a communist bastard, there ya go.

Originally posted by: oojason
Besides, in a capitalist world it seems as long as people have a nice house, car, holidays, a big tv and are subjected to the mindnumbing blandness that appears on the majority of it, nearly everyone under capitialism are content - many of which have a 'so what' attitiude to the preventable and addressable horrific events that take place around the world.


Quite right. Consumism blinds everyone from seeing the problems with capitalism. Just because you are free and having good stuff, that dosen't mean everyone is. If you are too lazy to get a job or do anything, then you should starve, but it's not always fair.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
Author
Time
Post link
^ some interesting points, Ric.


Under Capitalism we have seen countries stand by and do nothing (or too little too late) as atrociites have been carried out around the world - it seems if it is not in the interests fo the West to intervene (oil, money, contracts, money etc) then it stands by and does nothing.

What is the point of accumulating money and power (and large militaries) - when people around you are dying and you can prevent it, but choose not to?



A little patience goes a long way on this old-school Rebel base. If you are having issues finding what you are looking for, these will be of some help…

Welcome to the OriginalTrilogy.com | Introduce yourself in here | Useful info within : About : Help : Site Rules : Fan Project Rules : Announcements
‘How do I do this?’ on the OriginalTrilogy.com - includes info on how to ask for a fan project and how to search for projects and threads on OT•com.

A Project Index for Star Wars Preservations (Harmy’s Despecialized & 4K77/80/83 etc) : A Project Index for Star Wars Fan Edits (adywan & Hal 9000 etc)

Take your time to look around this site before posting… Do NOT just lazily make yet another ‘link request’ post - or a new thread asking for projects.

Author
Time
Post link
1. Since socialst nations have existed in the past and failed, what do you attribute their failure to? Is it reasonable to believe that these "obstacles" can be overcome in the short term?

some have failed - some have succeeded. The UK is governed by a socialist based party, as are other countires around the world. It is intersting to note that some countries that have enforced a system upon it's inhabitants have rebelled against it.



2. Were any of these nations imperialistic in nature, meaning did they expand beyond their national borders and conquer territory not in their possession prior to the Bolshevic revolution of the early part of the 20th century?

Have a look at the British Commonwealth and just how many countries are part of it - could add the USA to it on past criteria.



3. Were there "exceptions" to the socialist philosophies of these countries, meaning did any of the ruling class own nice automobiles or houses that were well beyond "....his needs"?

Probably so - the idea of socialism is to work together and help those around you to better everyon'e lives. It does not mean people should not have 'nice things'.



4. If inequitable distribution of wealth is the cause of crime and social injustice, how do you explain people who are wealthy that committ crimes?

Greed, love, jealousy. I'm prettys sure there are murderes in prisons from all walks of life.



5. Is brute labor the only force that is essential to the prosperity and equality of a society?

No, of course not. People voluntarily working together to acheive a goal can accomplish a lot.



6. If wealth were to be "redistributed" from the "20%" of the world's population that control it, and then given to the other 80%, will despotic rulers and tyrants be disposed to give this wealth to their people, or keep it for themselves?

Are the 80% all despotic leaders and tyrants? - what of 20% leaders? Do you give the leaders the money and say 'here it is' and leave them to it, or do you agree schemes and projects that help the most needy and take an active role in how it' is allocated.



7. If they did give the money to their citizens, would the social and physical infrastructure of these other nations immediately improve? If so, how?

Immediately? Possibly not - such an underastking takes time. If a hosptial can buy several £million of new equipment for it's patients it will still need to train technicians and and staff on how to use them etc



8. What incentive does a person who has guaranteed health care, housing, food, water, and clothing have to strive for a better life?

He strives for an even better life - helping those around him to ensure it.



9. For socialism to be truly implemented, the government must assume vast powers. Once assumed, what guarantee is there that the government will not abuse these powers?

Vote them in, vote them out - they don't need to be all powerful - tghe electorate (the people) still have ultimate power.



10. Do people try to accumulate more or less power?

As a whole? I don't know. It seems politicians cancertainly lose sight of issues for personal gain.



11. What if 1 or 2 people in said country decided they didn't feel socialism was right for them. Would the government be justified in using any and all means to implement the system for the greater good?

They are free to live wherever they feel as long as they abide by the people's wishes. They do not have to stay where they do not agree with how things are being run.



12. Is force justifiable in the redistribution of wealth?

Ask the IRS, or the taman, or the parking wardens.



13. In a socialist system, who's interests should/will take precedence in case of child rearing? Parents, or the State?

Parents decide on how to raise their childen. The state should be there to protect them, and both should work together to ready the children for life as an adult.



14. Should religious institutions be permitted in socialist societies?

Absolutely - free speech and beliefs should be permitted everywhere.



15. Of the examples the world has known so far, socialism as implemented in Cuba, China, North Korea, Soviet Union, etc; and capitalism as seen in the US, UK, Australia, etc: Which has offered the greater personal liberties to it's citizens?

I disagree - Communism has been implemented in some of those countries you mentioned - not socialism.



16. Given that the socialist death toll is at 100 million and counting, vastly outpacing "facist" numbers, does socialism get a free pass because it's more "altruistic"...at least on the surface? Can any ideology that results in the death of even one life be considered to be altruisitic?

Again, that is not a socilaist death toll - it a commnist based one and enforced on the people.



17. What is the difference between Facism and Communism? Do they not both lead to state control of the economy, thus making ideologies irrelevant?

That really isn't about socialism, but is you wish I'll come back to it later.



18. What is the difference between Marxist-Leninism vs Communism and can the more "pure" forms be implemented without innevitably deteriorating to totalitarianism?

That really isn't about socialism, but is you wish I'll come back to it later.



JediSage - what is your definition of socialism? and how does it differ from Communism?

A little patience goes a long way on this old-school Rebel base. If you are having issues finding what you are looking for, these will be of some help…

Welcome to the OriginalTrilogy.com | Introduce yourself in here | Useful info within : About : Help : Site Rules : Fan Project Rules : Announcements
‘How do I do this?’ on the OriginalTrilogy.com - includes info on how to ask for a fan project and how to search for projects and threads on OT•com.

A Project Index for Star Wars Preservations (Harmy’s Despecialized & 4K77/80/83 etc) : A Project Index for Star Wars Fan Edits (adywan & Hal 9000 etc)

Take your time to look around this site before posting… Do NOT just lazily make yet another ‘link request’ post - or a new thread asking for projects.

Author
Time
Post link
"I would love if we had a single tyrant that ruled the world, but did good things."

It scare me that you think this is a good idea, did you ever see revenge of the sith?


Besides the fact that man is a fallen creation and cannot be trusted with absolute rule, we are not god, but that is a side subject.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: skyjedi2005
"I would love if we had a single tyrant that ruled the world, but did good things."

It scare me that you think this is a good idea, did you ever see revenge of the sith?


LOL I hardly think that would be a good example, but still... And Palpatine did good things? Remember what Obi-Wan said: "Anakin, Palpatine is Evil!"
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
Author
Time
Post link
there's an old saying : absolute power corrupts absolutely. Give too much power to a good man and I bet you he will become evil.
Author
Time
Post link
All I'm going to add to this discussion right now is that Fascism and Communism are diametrically opposed both historically and ideologically. I'm not going to go into it, but check out an encyclopedia and read about each of them. If I remember correctly, Fascism was developed as a reaction to Communism in the first place.
MTFBWY. Always.

http://www.myspace.com/red_ajax
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: oojason
1. Since socialst nations have existed in the past and failed, what do you attribute their failure to? Is it reasonable to believe that these "obstacles" can be overcome in the short term?

some have failed - some have succeeded. The UK is governed by a socialist based party, as are other countires around the world. It is intersting to note that some countries that have enforced a system upon it's inhabitants have rebelled against it.

The UK is currently quasi-socialist, however I think it's safe to say Labor is on the way out. That being said, the people of Cuba don't have that choice. It's socialism to the end. Also, whatever happens in the UK in the short-term is a moot point due to it's membership in the EU, which is totally socialist.

2. Were any of these nations imperialistic in nature, meaning did they expand beyond their national borders and conquer territory not in their possession prior to the Bolshevic revolution of the early part of the 20th century?

Have a look at the British Commonwealth and just how many countries are part of it - could add the USA to it on past criteria.

This is somewhat irrelevant to my question. I'm not denying that other countries/systems are/were imperialistic, I'm just trying to discern whether or not socialism as it has been implemented is also imperialistic.

3. Were there "exceptions" to the socialist philosophies of these countries, meaning did any of the ruling class own nice automobiles or houses that were well beyond "....his needs"?

Probably so - the idea of socialism is to work together and help those around you to better everyon'e lives. It does not mean people should not have 'nice things'.

I think that's an over-simplification. The central tenent of socialism is "each according to his needs", not the president can drive a limo while everyone else has a bicycle. If it's to be implemented it should be implemented evenly for everyone regardless of station.

Is brute labor the only force that is essential to the prosperity and equality of a society?

No, of course not. People voluntarily working together to acheive a goal can accomplish a lot.

But that's not what socialism is. You're talking about a co-operative society where people do this without coersion. In a socialist society, if I have a farm that produces food at the expense of my labor, that food can and most likely will be taken from me and distributed to someone else. Who does this? The state. Not me.

6. If wealth were to be "redistributed" from the "20%" of the world's population that control it, and then given to the other 80%, will despotic rulers and tyrants be disposed to give this wealth to their people, or keep it for themselves?

Are the 80% all despotic leaders and tyrants? - what of 20% leaders? Do you give the leaders the money and say 'here it is' and leave them to it, or do you agree schemes and projects that help the most needy and take an active role in how it' is allocated.

"Schemes and projects" are a sure way to have a repeat of Oil for Food scandals (hard to believe given how noble the UN is and all). The starvations in Ethiopia and Somalia were addressed with massive amounts of food and such from many countries, but it never got to it's people because of the governments of these countries.

7. If they did give the money to their citizens, would the social and physical infrastructure of these other nations immediately improve? If so, how?

Immediately? Possibly not - such an underastking takes time. If a hosptial can buy several £million of new equipment for it's patients it will still need to train technicians and and staff on how to use them etc

Again assuming it even gets past the governments in the first place. I think it's fair to say that many governments have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo in their socio-politcal constructs, if not outright oppressing opposition and people in their societies

9. For socialism to be truly implemented, the government must assume vast powers. Once assumed, what guarantee is there that the government will not abuse these powers?

Vote them in, vote them out - they don't need to be all powerful - tghe electorate (the people) still have ultimate power.

Do they have this power in North Korea, Cuba, or China?

10. Do people try to accumulate more or less power?


As a whole? I don't know. It seems politicians cancertainly lose sight of issues for personal gain.


But can politicians be divorced from the political process? Can there be government without politicians?

11. What if 1 or 2 people in said country decided they didn't feel socialism was right for them. Would the government be justified in using any and all means to implement the system for the greater good?


They are free to live wherever they feel as long as they abide by the people's wishes. They do not have to stay where they do not agree with how things are being run.


This is coersion.

12. Is force justifiable in the redistribution of wealth?


Ask the IRS, or the taman, or the parking wardens.


Correct. The IRS is the enforcement arm of a quasi-socialist (for now) system.

15. Of the examples the world has known so far, socialism as implemented in Cuba, China, North Korea, Soviet Union, etc; and capitalism as seen in the US, UK, Australia, etc: Which has offered the greater personal liberties to it's citizens?


I disagree - Communism has been implemented in some of those countries you mentioned - not socialism.


What is the difference?

16. Given that the socialist death toll is at 100 million and counting, vastly outpacing "facist" numbers, does socialism get a free pass because it's more "altruistic"...at least on the surface? Can any ideology that results in the death of even one life be considered to be altruisitic?


Again, that is not a socilaist death toll - it a commnist based one and enforced on the people.


See above

17. What is the difference between Facism and Communism? Do they not both lead to state control of the economy, thus making ideologies irrelevant?


That really isn't about socialism, but is you wish I'll come back to it later.


Please do...

18. What is the difference between Marxist-Leninism vs Communism and can the more "pure" forms be implemented without innevitably deteriorating to totalitarianism?


That really isn't about socialism, but is you wish I'll come back to it later.


Please do...

JediSage - what is your definition of socialism? and how does it differ from Communism?


socialism = an economic system in which the existing system is abandoned in favor of a system of "...to each according to his needs". In this situation the government must assume near totalitarian powers to administer the economy and ensure that nobody is cheating the system. The government must also take steps to make sure that the system is perpetuated as it would be too difficult to continually switch back and forth between socialism and a market economy. As with pregnancy, there's no such thing as being 1/2 way. Either you are totally or are on your way to being totally socialist.

Difference between socialism and communism: I asked you first
Nemo me impune lacessit

http://ttrim.blogspot.com
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: theredbaron
All I'm going to add to this discussion right now is that Fascism and Communism are diametrically opposed both historically and ideologically. I'm not going to go into it, but check out an encyclopedia and read about each of them. If I remember correctly, Fascism was developed as a reaction to Communism in the first place.


Does it really matter when their just different means to the same end and is socialism any better than facism given it's propensity to result in totalitarianism?

Nemo me impune lacessit

http://ttrim.blogspot.com
Author
Time
Post link
What if we are were anarchists? No government at all.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
Author
Time
Post link
Anarchy would work if people weren't prone to being awful detestable creatures.

From the Dec of Ind:

"...That to secure these rights [Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness], governments are instituted among men..."

Government is a necsesary evil because of human nature.

4

Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: ricarleite
What if we are were anarchists? No government at all.


Actually, would it surprise you to learn that I've given some thought to that lately?
Nemo me impune lacessit

http://ttrim.blogspot.com
Author
Time
Post link
I would be for anarchy if ALL citizens were armed. An armed society is a polite society. It would be a necessity also to defend against invaders.
Nemo me impune lacessit

http://ttrim.blogspot.com
Author
Time
Post link
By the way: Castro is listed in Forbes magazine as being in the top 5 richest world leaders at just over $900 million...cough *according to his needs* cough If only the evil US would lift the trade/travel embargo those poor people would be so much better off.
Nemo me impune lacessit

http://ttrim.blogspot.com
Author
Time
Post link
Originally posted by: JediSage
I would be for anarchy if ALL citizens were armed. An armed society is a polite society. It would be a necessity also to defend against invaders.


Then you would pretty much have a Mad Max/Escape from NY scenario. The streets would be like Quake 3 maps.

An armed society is a polite society? Please explain that logic! I hardly belive being polite has anything to do with shooting people!
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering