Which one do you like more? The Prequels or the Sequels? And why? — Page 3

JadedSkywalker said:

Other than enjoying the last third of the movie and Sidious machinations and liking the scene in the opera house, you won’t find me defending Revenge of the Sith. Each of the prequels has its moments which are difficult to positively describe without knocking them down for bad dialogue in the scripts, and I mean it’s some of the worst writing I’ve ever read in a screenplay. The films seem to be chock a block full of special effects, and characters seem to take a back seat to them.

With further development of the screenplays and a good dialogue writer, perhaps the films could have been better. But they would always be compared to the OT and to be found wanting, because their style is different, they aren’t that swashbuckling fun adventure movie Star Wars 1977 is. In media res. No they are too bogged down in space politics. Like in Phantom Menace Space taxes.

There’s only like a couple scenes that talk about these things and most of them are them barely doing that in TPM. The longest where it’s the most talked about is in the Senate later on in the movie and even that’s only a few minutes I think. And I think that scene mostly works writing wise, with some criticisms.

Even the politics are barely done for the majority of the PT. There’s many scenes, yes I think, but those scenes aren’t that long I think.

The high style dialogue and wooden politicking seem to be a deliberate choice. The Jedi sitting around in their councils, Palpatine sitting in his Chancellors office. It is rather boring.

for Space Opera serial there is very little Jedi action in the trilogy beyond the 3 lightsaber duels. Way too much dialogue standing around and talking. I didn’t write it. I would have had them visit lots of different cultures and planets getting into adventures, or the films would have been about the Clone Wars and Anakin and Obi’s relationship. And there would have been some Coruscant but way less of it. Plus I don’t see the Jedi as politicians or afraid of attachments. I completely reject the prequel version of the Jedi.

In TPM Obi and Qui fight droids more than once, Qui has a quick duel with Maul before escaping. There’s two space fights, more or less.

In AOTC, there’s a chase, Obi and Jango fight, Obi and Jango space chase battle, there’s the huge arena fight with a lot of Jedi and droids and right after that the battle between the separatist droids and the clones. Anakin and Obi fight Dooku, Yoda fights Dooku.

In ROTS, there’s the whole opening, which includes space battle, Obi and Anakin fighting droids, Obi and Anakin fighting Dooku, them fighting more droids, the crash. Then there’s the wookie droid battle, Obi fights Grevious, Mace fights Palpatine, Anakin and Obi fight and Palpatine and Yoda fight.

I would have had more ground battles and space battles as well.

How many more did you want?

I would have liked to see more of Obi-Wan and Anakin’s relationship to get an insight into what Ben said in Star Wars to Luke in conversation. I don’t like how it’s just Obi-Wan is a liar. But now that is my accepted belief with A certain point of view.

I understand he built up the idea of the Jedi as guardians of the peace and great warriors to get a young man like Luke interested. He wasn’t exactly going to say your father was a butcher, who used this very lightsaber to slaughter younglings. Please come with me to Aldaraan, by the way the girl in the image projected by Artoo is your sister.

Darth Vader the right hand of the Emperor and fascist overlord is your father. Murderous psychopath and half robot because I sliced and diced him and he fell into lava.

Your father was not a good pilot, he accidentally destroyed the trade federation ship when he was 9 years old. He was always whining and never followed my lead. The older Anakin got, the more insistent he was on breaking the rules, and we Jedi built him up as the chosen one so he could do no wrong. We denied him love and companionship because it is attachment. took him from the only family and mother he ever knew. and told him not to fall in love with a woman, driving him to betray our order.

JadedSkywalker said:

I would have liked to see more of Obi-Wan and Anakin’s relationship to get an insight into what Ben said in Star Wars to Luke in conversation. I don’t like how it’s just Obi-Wan is a liar. But now that is my accepted belief with A certain point of view.

But is that about the fights? That was more my question, as you referred to an amount I think.

Where does Obi-Wan lie, beyond a couple things? He only really does about Anakin wanting Luke to have the lightsaber and the Vader killed your dad thing really I think that I remember.

I understand he built up the idea of the Jedi as guardians of the peace and great warriors to get a young man like Luke interested. He wasn’t exactly going to say your father was a butcher, who used this very lightsaber to slaughter younglings. Please come with me to Aldaraan, by the way the girl in the image projected by Artoo is your sister.

Darth Vader the right hand of the Emperor and fascist overlord is your father. Murderous psychopath and half robot because I sliced and diced him and he fell into lava.

Your father was not a good pilot, he accidentally destroyed the trade federation ship when he was 9 years old. He was always whining and never followed my lead. The older Anakin got, the more insistent he was on breaking the rules, and we Jedi built him up as the chosen one so he could do no wrong. We denied him love and companionship because it is attachment. took him from the only family and mother he ever knew. and told him not to fall in love with a woman, driving him to betray our order.

Nothing in the PT movies ever develops the idea that Anakin was seen as a bad pilot.

To say he was always whining and never followed his lead I think isn’t what happens in the movies. And why would never following his lead contradict what he said in OT?

No one in the PT denies Anakin love or companionship.

The Jedi as a group, Obi included, didn’t take him from his only family. Shmi wanted him to go and Anakin wanted to as well, and Qui-Gon offered and told him that it would be hard.

They never told him not to fall in love with a woman in the movies.

oojason said:

I’ll take the Sequels as they are simply less boring to watch; the PT is a great engaging story on paper - yet delivered a vapid, dull, unappealing, poor-CGId, borefest… that has so many needless inconsistencies and retcons to the OT (as well as much-changed lore to what had been established in the official released material before). Plus the many soulless unlikeable characters, mind-numbing dialogue, and inane acting performances in the PT (as well as poor writing / dumbing down of characters’ agency and decisions).

What’s more vapid about them than the ST?

I disagree about the CGI. I only think a few scenes are particularly poor.

Whose unlikable, beyond Anakin really, and that’s all I can really think of, even then that’s only in AOTC and when he’s a bad guy in ROTS I think, otherwise. Most people I’ve seen like Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon and generally Padme. Similar to Yoda or Mace. Jar-Jar may be, to me, not particularly likable, but I don’t see what’s unlikable about him particularly.

What’s different in regards to the dumbing down of characters agencies and decisions than the ST?

The ST; I can accept that TFA played it safe whilst trying to give the message that the ST (and maybe new era of SW live-action content?) would be more akin in tone, pacing, and ‘vibe’ to the OT than the PT - leaving the other 2 ST films to take up the slack in bringing something fresh and taking chances / moving forward with the stories. And I enjoyed TLJ for doing just that (for the most part). For me, the pacing, choreography, CGI, and acting here is superior to the PT - and for the most part… the dialogue is too (‘somehow, low bars have returned’). Then TROS dropped the ball and failed to appeal as a film in itself (the story is just a mess), failed as a climax to the ST, and also as the finale of the ‘Skywalker Saga’ as a whole. Yet for all the flaws of the ST… at least I wasn’t bored watching them like I am with the PT.

What’s the value of tone, pacing and vibe when there’s little to no point story or character wise overall?

How is the dialogue actually better overall?

I think TLJ is a remix of TESB with a twist of ROTJ thrown in, and it continues, to me, the regurgitation of the same empire vs rebels type dynamic, so what’s fresh or taking chances or moving forward about TLJ?

oojason said:

Right, I received a PM letting me know you’ve replied to another of my posts…

The same still applies what you were plainly told in the George Lucas’s Sequel Trilogy thread…
 

Quite why you (and the other TFn guy with the similar posting style) then still continued on and on asking questions and attempted to performatively interact with me in the George Lucas’s Sequel Trilogy thread… is lost on me. It still applies here and for any other threads, too.

You may wish to question why others here are ignoring your posts - and rethink your baiting ‘posting style’ and comments. Or not, I guess…?

That’d be a pity if not - as you do make the occasional intriguing and insightful posts on TFn (in amongst the usual circle-jerking on there). Though it is up to you, of course. I won’t be holding my breath, either way.

If you feel I’ve been mistaken or harsh, then feel free to PM me if you wish - though meanwhile I (and likely others) will still simply be ignoring / scrolling past your posts on here.
 

You imply I may be a zealot for doing… defending the PT’s story and replying to criticisms that I think don’t apply to them. And I’ve also criticized some of PT writing as well. I respond to posts I disagree with. Why not do that? What have I said that’s bad or wrong?

What posts on TFn are you referring to?

Circle jerking on that forum? Come on, please.

timmaaaah said:

This is a contraversial take, but even though ROS is bad, I still think it is a more competently made film than Revenge of the Sith on a basic level.

This has got to be 100% contrarianism

oojason said:

Yeah, all valid points mate.

See? I don’t know how I’m expected to respond to comments that I think just aren’t reflecting what happens in the movies, like that one, other than pointing out how I think it doesn’t reflect the movies:

Where does Obi-Wan lie, beyond a couple things? He only really does about Anakin wanting Luke to have the lightsaber and the Vader killed your dad thing really I think that I remember.

Nothing in the PT movies ever develops the idea that Anakin was seen as a bad pilot in those movies, so I don’t see how that’s a lie. If you wanted to see more of that, I can understand that, but I don’t see it as a contradiction.

To say he was always whining I think isn’t what happens in the movies. And why would never following his lead contradict what he said in OT?

No one in the PT denies Anakin love or companionship. Obi is his friend and straight says that he loved him. The Jedi as a whole show companionship to each other and care I think.

The Jedi as a group, Obi included, didn’t take him from his only family. Shmi wanted him to go and Anakin wanted to as well, and Qui-Gon offered and told him that it would be hard. No taking involved, as far as I think how that term used here implies.

They never told him not to fall in love with a woman in the movies. Attachment was something the Jedi were told not to do, not love.

What am I supposed to do if not disagree and point that out? Not reply at all? Why?

Prequel trilogy, easily. I liked Force Awakens enough, especially when it first came out, and if Abrams made the entire ST as a continuation then I would probably like it better. I despise Attack of the Clones and The Last Jedi, and Rise of Skywalker is bad but extremely fun to watch.

Phantom Menace is bizarre and sags in places, but has some excellent setpieces like the podrace and the lightsaber duel. Insanely good sound design. Jar Jar and kid Anakin are irritating, Padme is a non-character, but Obi Wan and Qui Gon are very likeable and I appreciate all their scenes.

Revenge of the Sith is good enough to tip the balance by itself. As silly as a lot of parts are, the story still has some gravitas and artistry to it and there are some cool fight scenes. I think the politicking between Palpatine and the Jedi Council makes for some well done intrigue. It’s the easiest movie to perfect using fan edits because it’s already the strongest.

Ewan McGregor and Ian McDiarmid are fantastic and carry everything almost by themselves. No one gives a comparable performance in any of the sequels, other than Ian himself when he’s Palpatine again. Adam Driver does well but it’s wasted on what they do with his character.

The John Williams score for the prequels is better and contains some all timer tracks that rank with the original trilogy. I don’t blame Williams for the sequel ones - they’re still good, and if anything I think he didn’t put his full effort because he knew it would be wasted on them.

Vladius said:

Prequel trilogy, easily. I liked Force Awakens enough, especially when it first came out, and if Abrams made the entire ST as a continuation then I would probably like it better. I despise Attack of the Clones and The Last Jedi, and Rise of Skywalker is bad but extremely fun to watch.

Phantom Menace is bizarre and sags in places, but has some excellent setpieces like the podrace and the lightsaber duel. Insanely good sound design. Jar Jar and kid Anakin are irritating, Padme is a non-character, but Obi Wan and Qui Gon are very likeable and I appreciate all their scenes.

I also really liked Otoh Gunga the underwater City being like the old Flash Gordon comic. And I liked Mos Espa.

I like the design of the City of Theed looking like Athens. Or Naboo is vaguely Tibetan and roman. You get the sense from the deleted scenes that Padme’s people are a cultured and learned people. But we don’t learn anything about them. We don’t know why Sidious hates the Naboo. Or why there is space taxes and tariffs.

I like the design of the Naboo N1-Starfighter. And I really do like The scene where the door opens and music of Duel of the Fates begins. And Maul makes his appearance. As to the sound design the AC3 laserdisc is the best the film has ever sounded. It does indeed lag. My opinion is the theatrical edit without any of the extended scenes is the best version. Is it perfect no, but Ben Burtt edit is better than Lucas later DVD version, which was followed by the blu-ray version with cgi Yoda. Which is the same version on the 4K UHD.

The scenes with Anakin learning about Padme and meeting her family should have stayed in but they slow down the pace of Attack of the Clones. The scenes where Padme begins the rebellion in Revenge of the Sith should have been reworked or reshot to be better and stayed in the movie. I wanted a bigger Wookie ground battle in Revenge of the Sith. More for Chewie to do if he had to be in the prequels at all. Though maybe not having a Han Solo Tarzan like character in him being orphaned and raised with Chewie is probably the best. Good for Lucas cutting that.

On one hand the idea of Palpatine being revealed to be Anakin’s father I like that idea, and on the other hand it is better to be implied like Lucas did. I think the Opera scenes works even if the mention of midichlorians I find repulsive.
On one hand I love the visual of Vader being born on a table and Padme dying at the same time, except for the fact she was supposed to live until Leia was very young. It creates a problem with ROTJ.

The way Anakin is imprisoned in that suit is very poetic. On one hand the suit keeps him alive and on the other hand it deprives him of his humanity. He is Frankenstein’s monster. He chose to go to the dark side and he is living in hell and torment. He was willing to do all of that if Padme had lived, his choices cost her the one life she had.

All he has left is his rage and hatred. Of Obi-Wan, The Jedi and even the Emperor who holds his leash. In the end Lukes gives him purpose again and for one moment he becomes a Jedi. Lukes’s compassion and mercy should have ended in his death. Throwing away his weapon at the moment. on the second death star. And it instead turns the tide. Luke reaches Anakin within a dying Darth Vader. Who takes the Emperor and throws him into the depths.

JadedSkywalker said:

I also really liked Otoh Gunga the underwater City being like the old Flash Gordon comic. And I liked Mos Espa.

I like the design of the City of Theed looking like Athens. Or Naboo is vaguely Tibetan and roman. You get the sense from the deleted scenes that Padme’s people are a cultured and learned people. But we don’t learn anything about them. We don’t know why Sidious hates the Naboo. Or why there is space taxes and tariffs.

Huh? I’ve never heard that as an issue before. What gives you the impression Palpatine hates Naboo? What does anything he does to it have to do with personal hatred? It’s his home planet seemingly (I base this off of him being senator I think for it) and what he orcheastrates to have done to it I think is useful in getting himself elected. He shows no other use or issue with it beyond that, that I remember

Why wouldn’t there be taxes?

I think the Opera scenes works even if the mention of midichlorians I find repulsive.

Why?

On one hand I love the visual of Vader being born on a table and Padme dying at the same time, except for the fact she was supposed to live until Leia was very young. It creates a problem with ROTJ.

Leia is very young when Padme dies. lol.

The design work in the PT is top notch. Lucas in charge made for awful scripts and direction, but he hired the best of the best for the other departments. Phantom Menace mostly looks fantastic still, all these years later. Just imagine if it also had a compelling story and characters, and a sense of charm and pace.

Broom Kid said:

I find it almost impossible, from a filmmaking perspective, to look at anything in the prequels and think it was done better (or not even better, simply “more competently”) than anything in the sequels.

I just don’t… see how the case can be made. The only bit of legitimate overlap between the two is in how inert and pointless Rise of Skywalker is, ultimately. But even then, it’s hard not to say stuff like the cinematography, the editing, the acting, basically everything except the music (and even on that note I’d put at least two of the sequel scores in Williams’ upper half) was done better in Rise of Skywalker. That the film ends up being as bad (or arguably worse) than Attack of the Clones (easily the ugliest film in the entire saga) in terms of quality of storytelling is what really sinks it. If anything, it makes the quality of the craft even more insulting: They spent all that money making it look as glossy and pretty as they could and it’s just a candied turd sitting there.

But yeah, Force Awakens and Last Jedi are, without question, better made films, AS films, than anything in the prequel trilogy, and it’s not even close.

Story and character by country mile I think the PT exceed the ST. I think Dooku in AOTC has more character and personality in his like three or four scenes than Kylo does in nearly the whole ST trilogy as an example. Let’s continue with this AOTC comparison for fun.

I think more of a point and weight happens in the AOTC movie more than all of the ST as well, which just regurgitates the OT to me more than not, and that includes TLJ, whose only big contribution is to just say the new empire is more empire-y than ever and Kylo is in charge now, and because I think Kylo has no actual meaningful character it changes nothing to me that he kills Snoke and takes over, because I think he has nothing that differentiates him from Snoke, except maybe a lack of gravitas that I think Snoke had some of. For the whole trilogy, I think it’s just empire vs rebels again, with a knockoff Vader and another Palpatine, one knockoff and then the Palpatine character. Meanwhile AOTC tells a story about TCW starting and Palpatine gaining emergency powers.

Rey has not much of any voice of her own issues or struggles or ideas, just a generic “muh parents” in the overall trilogy as a whole and that’s not even accounting for how her character was botched to me in TLJ with the whole reylo thing, which managed I think to fail even to clear the very low bar that I think AOTC set for romance, reducing Rey, the main character of the trilogy, to a pliable doll to sit there and listen to the dumb guys whine about their pointless nonsense, and then be so adamant at trying to turn Kylo, who she has no actual relationship with or personal reason to care about.

I saw the first entry of each trilogy in the theater and never went back to see the rest. In this regard, I suppose they’re on an equally bad footing.

But at the risk of incurring a new wall of text by our good friend Dagenpsear, it might be true to say that I disliked the ST less. This is because I found the PT so disappointing that my enthusiasm for new SW films was radically diminished; so TFA couldn’t dash my hopes and expectations in the way TPM did because, by that point, I didn’t really have any. And as uninspired as TFA may have been in several respects, it didn’t really have much that set my teeth on edge the way TPM did. Damning by faint praise to be sure, but still, another point in favor of the ST!

Broom Kid said:

I find it almost impossible, from a filmmaking perspective, to look at anything in the prequels and think it was done better (or not even better, simply “more competently”) than anything in the sequels.

I just don’t… see how the case can be made. The only bit of legitimate overlap between the two is in how inert and pointless Rise of Skywalker is, ultimately. But even then, it’s hard not to say stuff like the cinematography, the editing, the acting, basically everything except the music (and even on that note I’d put at least two of the sequel scores in Williams’ upper half) was done better in Rise of Skywalker. That the film ends up being as bad (or arguably worse) than Attack of the Clones (easily the ugliest film in the entire saga) in terms of quality of storytelling is what really sinks it. If anything, it makes the quality of the craft even more insulting: They spent all that money making it look as glossy and pretty as they could and it’s just a candied turd sitting there.

But yeah, Force Awakens and Last Jedi are, without question, better made films, AS films, than anything in the prequel trilogy, and it’s not even close.

As much as I dislike TROS I do give JJ some credit for how watchable the film is. That is something, considering what a rushed, hatchet-job the production was. Speaking of the film insulting the craft though: There is a moment in the behind the scenes doc where they’re filming John Williams’ cameo as a barman. He’s surrounded by props that reference all of his legendary scores, something like 20 unique pieces by the art department. That would be the moment I felt what you described, ha.

I just find it bewildering to hear that The Rise of Skywalker is more competent than Revenge of the Sith. The making of that movie was such a public disaster that I just can not wrap my head around hearing that it’s more competently made other than it being contrarianism. Even if you’re unaware of how much of a shitshow The Rise of Skywalker was, it seeps through into nearly every aspect of the movie.

Episodes 7 and 8 definitely have far better acting, dialog, and editing than the prequels, but Episode 9’s editing is just as formulaic as in the prequels, the acting is all over the place, and the dialog is full of stinkers. So if you want to say the ST is a bad story told well, that definitely can not be applied to Episode 9.

The sequel trilogy looks a lot better than the prequels for returning to puppets, practical effects, and not shooting every damn scene on a green screen soundstage. But this really isn’t a sign of incompetence in the prequel trilogy, it’s the kind of movie George Lucas was trying to make. I think the new Avatar movie looks bad, and the human characters look similarly out of place against CG characters and a CG environment. But that’s not because they fucked up making Avatar. On the other hand, the disjointed, incoherent narrative of the ST is not intentional, and the ST is purely like that because of mishandling. Finn and Kylo Ren don’t get sidelined for any greater purpose, they did not bring back Palpatine because they had anything new for him, they did not redo Rebels vs Empire because they had anything more to add to it, et cetera.

I guess JJ Abrams deserves some credit for trying his darnedest given how bad its production was, and how much was riding on it. But how much worse would The Rise of Skywalker need to be for it not to be watchable? The movie is pretty fucking awful and he definitely did not succeed in taking over such a rocky production and turning into a decent movie.

RangerofAquilae said:

I saw the first entry of each trilogy in the theater and never went back to see the rest. In this regard, I suppose they’re on an equally bad footing.

But at the risk of incurring a new wall of text by our good friend Dagenpsear, it might be true to say that I disliked the ST less. This is because I found the PT so disappointing that my enthusiasm for new SW films was radically diminished; so TFA couldn’t dash my hopes and expectations in the way TPM did because, by that point, I didn’t really have any. And as uninspired as TFA may have been in several respects, it didn’t really have much that set my teeth on edge the way TPM did. Damning by faint praise to be sure, but still, another point in favor of the ST!

Lol. At least I’m acknowledged. But I try to not just argue against opinions like this, that’s more just saying that you like or prefer one over the other. I may ask why, but otherwise, eh. Usually I think I try to more reply to reasons given that I think don’t apply.

SparkySywer said:

I just find it bewildering to hear that The Rise of Skywalker is more competent than Revenge of the Sith. The making of that movie was such a public disaster that I just can not wrap my head around hearing that it’s more competently made other than it being contrarianism. Even if you’re unaware of how much of a shitshow The Rise of Skywalker was, it seeps through into nearly every aspect of the movie.

Episodes 7 and 8 definitely have far better acting, dialog, and editing than the prequels, but Episode 9’s editing is just as formulaic as in the prequels, the acting is all over the place, and the dialog is full of stinkers. So if you want to say the ST is a bad story told well, that definitely can not be applied to Episode 9.

The sequel trilogy looks a lot better than the prequels for returning to puppets, practical effects, and not shooting every damn scene on a green screen soundstage. But this really isn’t a sign of incompetence in the prequel trilogy, it’s the kind of movie George Lucas was trying to make. I think the new Avatar movie looks bad, and the human characters look similarly out of place against CG characters and a CG environment. But that’s not because they fucked up making Avatar. On the other hand, the disjointed, incoherent narrative of the ST is not intentional, and the ST is purely like that because of mishandling. Finn and Kylo Ren don’t get sidelined for any greater purpose, they did not bring back Palpatine because they had anything new for him, they did not redo Rebels vs Empire because they had anything more to add to it, et cetera.

I guess JJ Abrams deserves some credit for trying his darnedest given how bad its production was, and how much was riding on it. But how much worse would The Rise of Skywalker need to be for it not to be watchable? The movie is pretty fucking awful and he definitely did not succeed in taking over such a rocky production and turning into a decent movie.

There are much worse movies than “watchable” ones. It’s all low stakes but yeah, there’s some credit to JJ for basically winging it and making something resembling a movie. Under any scrutiny it crumbles to pieces, but it hits all the crowd pleaser beats of a blockbuster, has a few good moments and doesn’t linger too long on the bad ones.

This standard isn’t normally worth considering but we are comparing to the PT. Attack of the Clones is excruciating nearly every time a character speaks. This is when I start crediting TROS for being watchable. Lucas’s films have a creative intent and a soul that I don’t think anyone is going to argue TROS has, but they also regularly fail at just being palatable. Truly a contest with no winner.

I pictured a different movie in my head from watching the OT. along with all the outside pre prequel lore. I don’t know if I hate the prequels, but they aren’t the movie I pictured. the slow seduction to evil. Vader hunting down and destroying the Jedi. the Clone Wars. I got almost nothing as expected.

You make assumptions based on the movies we had, like of course Yoda will be Obi-Wan’s master he says so in the Empire Strikes Back.

As much as I hate or dislike the handling of the legacy characters in the sequel trilogy I can just reject them and read my expanded universe novels. The prequel needs a page 1 rewrite to fit the lore of the unaltered OT.

It’s very obviously it was all made up on the fly and the Saga of Darth Vader is a lie. Its a valiant and creative way to alter the trajectory of the Saga and rejigger it to have always been about Vader but for me it does not work. Star Wars from the adventures of Luke Skywalker.

The only part that sort of fits with Lucas ideas and goes back to the 70s is Ben and Vader fighting over a lava pit.

Almost nothing from the 1980s prequels ideas survived into the prequels. If you read the Rinzler book on the making of Return of the Jedi, anyone can use the force and Yoda is like a Yoga master guru. No mention of a lightsaber wielding Yoda.

No mention of mutant magic blood. Midichlorians. No chosen ones. No forbidden love. No doctrine of attachment.

henzINNIT said:

This standard isn’t normally worth considering but we are comparing to the PT. Attack of the Clones is excruciating nearly every time a character speaks. This is when I start crediting TROS for being watchable. Lucas’s films have a creative intent and a soul that I don’t think anyone is going to argue TROS has, but they also regularly fail at just being palatable. Truly a contest with no winner.

I would disagree. I think almost all of Obi-Wan’s, Dooku’s, Palpatine’s, Yoda’s, Jango’s and Padme’s lines are fine for the most part, and that’s only among the main cast. Anakin’s dialogue, with the acting, I think is stilted and cringy more often than not to me and is where most of the issues lie for me.

JadedSkywalker said:

I pictured a different movie in my head from watching the OT. along with all the outside pre prequel lore. I don’t know if I hate the prequels, but they aren’t the movie I pictured. the slow seduction to evil. Vader hunting down and destroying the Jedi. the Clone Wars. I got almost nothing as expected.

You make assumptions based on the movies we had, like of course Yoda will be Obi-Wan’s master he says so in the Empire Strikes Back.

As far as I remember and see, Obi didn’t say that. He refers to Yoda as the one who instructed him. Which is shown that Yoda does instruct younglings in AOTC.

As much as I hate or dislike the handling of the legacy characters in the sequel trilogy I can just reject them and read my expanded universe novels. The prequel needs a page 1 rewrite to fit the lore of the unaltered OT.

What doesn’t fit?

It’s very obviously it was all made up on the fly and the Saga of Darth Vader is a lie. Its a valiant and creative way to alter the trajectory of the Saga and rejigger it to have always been about Vader but for me it does not work. Star Wars from the adventures of Luke Skywalker.

I mean, the story is pretty clearly about Luke struggling with the legacy of his dad. That’s there from ANH. Not about Vader specifically, but still about what it means for Luke.

The only part that sort of fits with Lucas ideas and goes back to the 70s is Ben and Vader fighting over a lava pit.

What else doesn’t fit?

Almost nothing from the 1980s prequels ideas survived into the prequels. If you read the Rinzler book on the making of Return of the Jedi, anyone can use the force and Yoda is like a Yoga master guru. No mention of a lightsaber wielding Yoda.

Why is this a problem, that Lucas altered his ideas?

No mention of mutant magic blood. Midichlorians. No chosen ones. No forbidden love. No doctrine of attachment.

It being strong in family is in ROTJ. Midichlorians don’t change anything about that. And lack of attachment doesn’t contradict what Obi and Yoda are instructed Luke about in the OT. Or forbidden love. I don’t see the contradictions here between the OT and PT.

SparkySywer said:

I just find it bewildering to hear that The Rise of Skywalker is more competent than Revenge of the Sith. The making of that movie was such a public disaster that I just can not wrap my head around hearing that it’s more competently made other than it being contrarianism. Even if you’re unaware of how much of a shitshow The Rise of Skywalker was, it seeps through into nearly every aspect of the movie.

Episodes 7 and 8 definitely have far better acting, dialog, and editing than the prequels, but Episode 9’s editing is just as formulaic as in the prequels, the acting is all over the place, and the dialog is full of stinkers. So if you want to say the ST is a bad story told well, that definitely can not be applied to Episode 9.

The sequel trilogy looks a lot better than the prequels for returning to puppets, practical effects, and not shooting every damn scene on a green screen soundstage. But this really isn’t a sign of incompetence in the prequel trilogy, it’s the kind of movie George Lucas was trying to make. I think the new Avatar movie looks bad, and the human characters look similarly out of place against CG characters and a CG environment. But that’s not because they fucked up making Avatar. On the other hand, the disjointed, incoherent narrative of the ST is not intentional, and the ST is purely like that because of mishandling. Finn and Kylo Ren don’t get sidelined for any greater purpose, they did not bring back Palpatine because they had anything new for him, they did not redo Rebels vs Empire because they had anything more to add to it, et cetera.

I guess JJ Abrams deserves some credit for trying his darnedest given how bad its production was, and how much was riding on it. But how much worse would The Rise of Skywalker need to be for it not to be watchable? The movie is pretty fucking awful and he definitely did not succeed in taking over such a rocky production and turning into a decent movie.

This