What do you think of the Sequel Trilogy? - a general discussion thread — Page 16

NFBisms said:

Eh, idk about that. If anything you can argue its depiction in TLJ alone lands on being didactic against it. That stuff isn’t politics though, nor has that necessarily been a conversation re: woke in Star Wars

It’s depiction is used still, I think, to present Rey in a passive role that serves Kylo and Luke’s story. By making it that way, I still think it’s not against it. That the romance angle is there at all, I think suggests a random favoritism for the concept, that doesn’t take Rey’s character and emotions about everything she’s experienced by Kylo’s actions into account.

I was suggesting that runs counter to some of those who argue it’s political or woke.

JadedSkywalker said:

Vader does say in the OT the Emperor is not as forgiving as I am. Don’t you remember. Apology accepted Captain Needa. Admiral Ozzel is as clumsy as he is stupid, You’ve failed me for the last time admiral.

I don’t see any of those as puns, more dry remarks or insults.

Prequely is flashy twirly lightsaber moves. Style over substance. Not fitting the tone of SW 77 where Vader enters Leia’s ship. Lightsabers are to be held with both hands as if they have weight and heft to them.

Who says how lightsabers should be held? Because some characters did it that way in a couple movies? What’s style over substance about either of these things? Tension, weariness, conflict are all still explored in the PT fights.

Suited Vader is imposing and moves exactly as he does in SW and TESB. The lightsaber combat style in the OT is completely different than the prequels.

Vader isn’t trying to fight Luke to the death in TESB I think, so I don’t see a contradiction in behavior or actions. And Luke isn’t nearly skilled enough.

Vader’s design looking like Star Wars 1977 or closer than the prequel is completely what I meant as well as how James Earl Jones sounded. Still not the imposing figure of David Prowse though. I don’t like Episode III Vader at all.

I prefer the cleaner look. Seems more a preference thing per person to me.

I’d like everything to hew and adhere to the OT esthetic.

I don’t think that changes much, especially considering in the PT we are seeing a totally different side of the galaxy for the most part. I don’t think it counters anything in the OT really much.

I know someone mentioned Mustafar, I could do without a prequel reference there but not a dealbreaker.

What does a prequel reference harm?

I liked the Hardware Wars reference with the clothes iron. But it was very goofy humor for SW. TLJ.

NFBisms said:

Do you really think within a genre certain themes and topics become verboten?

Maybe not themes explicitly but how they’re presented. Otherwise a lack of tonal consistency appears or you get something like Rebel Moon. People already started saying that the serious conclusion to Andor doesn’t fit with the adventure plot of SW77. Think about it another way; does it make sense for the material to jump from Jar-Jar ‘whoops I stepped in the poopie’ jokes, to man being burned alive screaming? There has to be some overall balance, maybe not the content directly, but in the execution.

I like that Finn is 2187. This is a reference to Leia’s jail cel number and Arthur Lipsett’s film.

Destruction of the legacy characters is at the top of my list. But I’d also place the reset of the Star Wars universe near the top too. Suddenly we know nothing of the Imperial Remnant or the New Republic, and all of sudden we have a first order and resistance, so Disney can be lazy and do rebels vs empire again. We are also lead to believe Luke Skywalker completely failed in rebuilding the Jedi order, and there are no Jedi left, except for Kylo on the Dark Side and Rey on the light. This makes no sense. Disney’s sense of what balance of the force is not George’s. It is not equal light and equal darkness. Darkness rises and light to meet it. Someone was a little too in love with Filoni Mortis.

Most of the issues I have with the trilogy are with the force awakens and the rise of skywalker. There a few only in the last jedi. JJ reset the universe back to where it was in the original film. and ended the trilogy in the same place as Return of the Jedi this is a failure.

I only accept Last Jedi as a standalone and not an extension or Sequel to Return of the Jedi and certainly not a part of a trilogy. But there are actual story beats within it, even if disagree with some of them. JJ did Star Wars greatest hits and tried to make fanfilms. Nostalgia pieces. Without taking any risks. Without any narrative heft, no worldbuilding. No exposition as to why our heroes fell and failed. You just have to accept they were replaced by new Disney heroes.

JadedSkywalker said:

I only accept Last Jedi as a standalone and not an extension or Sequel to Return of the Jedi and certainly not a part of a trilogy. But there are actual story beats within it, even if disagree with some of them. JJ did Star Wars greatest hits and tried to make fanfilms. Nostalgia pieces. Without taking any risks. Without any narrative heft, no worldbuilding. No exposition as to why our heroes fell and failed. You just have to accept they were replaced by new Disney heroes.

I think that TLJ is not that much more than a remix of TESB with a little ROTJ thrown in. Only really two new concepts are at play in it, and even then it’s riding on TESB/ROTJ concepts. Luke being a despondent, bitter Jedi is one of the new things, but the mentor who doesn’t want to train the mentee is from TESB, Yoda resists training Luke, the only difference is that it’s about Luke why Yoda resists (while in TLJ Luke is the reason Luke doesn’t want to train Rey, I think another part of the movie, among a few others maybe more, that works in stripping Rey of much of any voice or agency as a character within the movie), even then they’re both still encouraged to mentor their new apprentice by old ally’s from their past. Kylo killing Snoke and taking over is another difference, though that’s more at the end and still basically what Vader did in ROTJ, only real distinction is that this is a swerve away from Vader wanting to overthrow but when he does so he turns away from villainy, Kylo still staying a villain.

The Poe plot is technically newer, but it and Finn and Rose’s plot I think is mostly the Han and Leia plot from TESB split in two, with more people, and to me, dumber. Rebels are on the run from the empire, seek out assistance from someone, who betrays them and turns them over to the empire. Some details are different, but it’s more similar than not I think.

Though, I do think that story is, at least, more consistent than TFA’s story of “find Luke/map to Luke… wait no, rescue Rey and destroy suddenly appearing starkiller base”.

Dagenspear said:

JadedSkywalker said:

I only accept Last Jedi as a standalone and not an extension or Sequel to Return of the Jedi and certainly not a part of a trilogy. But there are actual story beats within it, even if disagree with some of them. JJ did Star Wars greatest hits and tried to make fanfilms. Nostalgia pieces. Without taking any risks. Without any narrative heft, no worldbuilding. No exposition as to why our heroes fell and failed. You just have to accept they were replaced by new Disney heroes.

I think that TLJ is not that much more than a remix of TESB with a little ROTJ thrown in. Only really two new concepts are at play in it, and even then it’s riding on TESB/ROTJ concepts. Luke being a despondent, bitter Jedi is one of the new things, but the mentor who doesn’t want to train the mentee is from TESB, Yoda resists training Luke, the only difference is that it’s about Luke why Yoda resists (while in TLJ Luke is the reason Luke doesn’t want to train Rey, I think another part of the movie, among a few others maybe more, that works in stripping Rey of much of any voice or agency as a character within the movie), even then they’re both still encouraged to mentor their new apprentice by old ally’s from their past. Kylo killing Snoke and taking over is another difference, though that’s more at the end and still basically what Vader did in ROTJ, only real distinction is that this is a swerve away from Vader wanting to overthrow but when he does so he turns away from villainy, Kylo still staying a villain.

The Poe plot is technically newer, but it and Finn and Rose’s plot I think is mostly the Han and Leia plot from TESB split in two, with more people, and to me, dumber. Rebels are on the run from the empire, seek out assistance from someone, who betrays them and turns them over to the empire. Some details are different, but it’s more similar than not I think.

Though, I do think that story is, at least, more consistent than TFA’s story of “find Luke/map to Luke… wait no, rescue Rey and destroy suddenly appearing starkiller base”.

Kylo killing Snoke was a bad decision IMO. Though Snoke was a Palpatine ripoff in TFA, he had so much potential to be made into a more unique character given how TFA revealed almost nothing about who he is and what his backstory and motivations were, and Rian Johnson threw all that potential away solely because he saw the interrogation scene and thought it’d be cool to focus on Kylo.

The Force Awakens is very self-aware with Han even acting like Starkiller base is an even bigger death star. Well you know its one of the things I dislike about that film, why redo Star Wars from 1977. I mean I understand in tone wanting an adventure film like the original, instead of the prequel. But it came off as new coke. They tried to replicate the original recipe. They sometimes claim imitation is the sincerest form of flattery but I’m not sure I agree.

Even I was fooled I saw the film 3 times. It was a joyous and empty piece of film, popcorn cinema. It works on dopamine alone. Because you know that original 1977 film is Star Wars written large. That is Star Wars. Now it wouldn’t work, the sequel woke people up. They won’t fool people again.

Avimo said:

Kylo killing Snoke was a bad decision IMO. Though Snoke was a Palpatine ripoff in TFA, he had so much potential to be made into a more unique character given how TFA revealed almost nothing about who he is and what his backstory and motivations were, and Rian Johnson threw all that potential away solely because he saw the interrogation scene and thought it’d be cool to focus on Kylo.

A weak writing decision moreso to me based on how I think Kylo not being anything of value as a character or villain rather than Snoke having much of a point. As is, at least Snoke had presence to him. Kylo taking over neither adds to him as a character neither does it change the first order as far as TLJ shows us I think, he just seems to keep on doing what he was doing before and FO does as well to me, only difference is that Kylo’s dumber to me and more petulant, so who cares and what’s the point? Another empty RJ attempt at doing something kinda different and then just not actually doing anything different with it to me.

Like Rey nobody. Not as different as I think the movie thinks considering every single Jedi in the PT, barring Anakin, was never developed to come from a special bloodline, but still, I think there’s room to expand on the character within that idea, yet RJ just seems to use it as a vague way to have Rey be kinda insecure and force reylo to happen for no real much character or story reason for me. Rey has to be told by Kylo that her parents sold her, and she’s sad for about a minute and in the scene after when she’s flying she’s all hunky dory.

Yoda was testing Luke in TESB. His being a curmudgeon and strange character was an act. That whole ill tempered gnome thing, Luke was expecting a Jedi Master to not be a little Muppet. Judge me by my size do you, well you should not. For my ally is the force and a powerful ally it is.

The boy has no patience. Much anger in him like his father.

Yoda’s reluctance is in knowing Luke’s nature he is like Anakin. And He says he is too old to begin the training.

Luke is giving a stern warning about the dark side. It did consume his father.

All your life have you looked away, to the future to the horizon. Never your mind on where you were. What you were doing. Adventure. Excitement. A Jedi craves not these things. You a reckless.

And Yoda was right Luke abandons his training, and rushes to face Darth Vader to save Han and Leia and saves no one. He has to be saved by Chewie, Leia and Lando. Vader toys with him like cat with a mouse in that duel on Bespin, Vader could have slain him at any moment. That was not a duel of equals not really, Vader held back. Luke was impelled by his rage and got his butt whooped. Lukes anger and hatred of Vader was based on lie told by Kenobi. Vader betrayed and murdered your father.

So Rey is not Luke in TESB and Luke is not Yoda. Though Disney wanted Kylo to be a wannabe Vader. And you get Imperial Walkers again.

Luke’s summon to the call to adventure in Star Wars 1977 was Leia’s message from Artoo. What was Rey’s I’m not even certain. Other than Beach Ball 8 having the map to Luke Skywalker. Which they act like was important or something, like Luke was on a search or something to help defeat Kylo and the first order. And he just went to the furthest away planet to die.

Luke’s throwing Anakin’s lightsaber over his shoulder and denying Artoos pleas with Leia’s old message is refusal of the call in the Last Jedi.

What do you think I’m going to do, face down the entire first order with a laser sword. Go Away.

JadedSkywalker said:

Yoda was testing Luke in TESB. His being a curmudgeon and strange character was an act. That whole ill tempered gnome thing, Luke was expecting a Jedi Master to not be a little Muppet. Judge me by my size do you, well you should not. For my ally is the force and a powerful ally it is.

The boy has no patience. Much anger in him like his father.

Yoda’s reluctance is in knowing Luke’s nature he is like Anakin. And He says he is too old to begin the training.

Luke is giving a stern warning about the dark side. It did consume his father.

All your life have you looked away, to the future to the horizon. Never your mind on where you were. What you were doing. Adventure. Excitement. A Jedi craves not these things. You a reckless.

And Yoda was right Luke abandons his training, and rushes to face Darth Vader to save Han and Leia and saves no one. He has to be saved by Chewie, Leia and Lando. Vader toys with him like cat with a mouse in that duel on Bespin, Vader could have slain him at any moment. That was not a duel of equals not really, Vader held back. Luke was impelled by his rage and got his butt whooped. Lukes anger and hatred of Vader was based on lie told by Kenobi. Vader betrayed and murdered your father.

So Rey is not Luke in TESB and Luke is not Yoda. Though Disney wanted Kylo to be a wannabe Vader. And you get Imperial Walkers again.

Huh? That’s what I said. In TESB Yoda not training Luke was about Luke, while in TLJ Luke not training Rey was about Luke.

The story structure and basic outline of the situation is mostly the same I think, difference is the characterization.

Luke’s summon to the call to adventure in Star Wars 1977 was Leia’s message from Artoo. What was Rey’s I’m not even certain. Other than Beach Ball 8 having the map to Luke Skywalker. Which they act like was important or something, like Luke was on a search or something to help defeat Kylo and the first order. And he just went to the furthest away planet to die.

Luke’s throwing Anakin’s lightsaber over his shoulder and denying Artoos pleas with Leia’s old message is refusal of the call in the Last Jedi.

What do you think I’m going to do, face down the entire first order with a laser sword. Go Away.

I think you’re speaking more on characterization, not the story and outline structures the characters in.

This has nothing to do with the roles and basic structure of the story that the characters are in. Luke is in a mentor role, doesn’t want to train Rey, is convinced to by an old ally, gives what I think the movie considers training of some sort, Rey goes into a dark side cave and then gets a vision that Luke warns against but she follows into a trap anyway. Like TESB, where Luke comes to Yoda, Yoda doesn’t want to train Luke, is convinced to by an old ally, is working at training Luke, Luke goes into a dark side cave and then after that gets a vision that Yoda warns against but he follows into a trap anyway. Only real difference I think in story structure outline is that what follows is the last act of ROTJ at the end of TLJ.

I neither like nor understand Disney’s Luke Skywalker. He isn’t the same character that exists in the original trilogy and the expanded universe.

I’ve completely soured even on his limited deepfake appearances as well. Who does he still have a glove on his hand and didn’t get his prosthetic hand repaired. Nothing Disney did with the character made sense.

I can only enjoy Last Jedi as a what if tale. But everything else they’ve done with the character sucks.

First order and Resistance instead of New Republic and The Empire is nonsense. It was just a lazy reset. Should be hundreds of Jedi. No there was only two left one on the light and one on the dark side, and then only one.

The myopic lack of lore or backstory/ worldbuilding. The sequels have great art direction and cinematography; being shot on film they look great. Last Jedi was also digital but, you know what I mean. They have a good cast and relatively good to less than good acting, and good music scores. But they don’t add to the Star Wars mythos. They are completely like what James Cameron said, retreading old ground offering nothing new.

I think they are better than George’s proposed sequels, but water is wet. We still don’t have a sequel of merit, that makes sense or is good. That isn’t fanfiction. You have two vastly different fanfictions, the one in Legends. You can just ignore the bad books you don’t like. And the one Disney made. The alleged canon sequel. The one where all our heroes died and were nothing. Universe refreshed and reset with all new Disney characters we sort of like, I suppose. I didn’t mind them. But Luke and Han and Leia are basically just cameos, and could easily be written out of the story.

Without reference to the OT the Disney trilogy could have been set in any era. They merely brought back Mark, Carrie and Harrison to get older people to pay money to see these movies. And it worked for that trilogy at least. But Carrie is gone. and they killed off Luke and Han, and Mark and Harrison are both older and done. Literally what is there to return for Gen X fans. If you go to see Star Wars for Luke’s adventures. Nada. Not even whatever the prequel trilogy was. A promised backstory for Luke’s father and Ben Kenobi.

The franchise is all member berries and nostalgia. The framework is set. its Episodes 1-6. Where can you go with a story with no defining characteristic, and no central hero to anchor the viewer. I related to Luke, he was like the story avatar for the film viewer. Just like you go with Frodo and Sam on their Journey to Mordor, watching Lord of the Rings. I do not relate to any of the new characters, nor did I relate to Hayden Skywalker in the prequel. It’s why for me the original trilogy is fundamental; the prequel is at best supplemental, and not necessary. The sequel trilogy is like a legends reboot on film, or Star Wars Infinites.

I think the second two Star Wars trilogies have major issues. The OT isn’t perfect or holy writ, but it has relatable and likable characters and even though it has ropey dialog. it doesn’t have anything near the awfulness of the prequel. There is a more natural way people talk. And of course, unlike the sequel trilogy you don’t get they fly now, or somehow Palpatine returned. The most ridiculous line is probably, a certain point of view.

A critical as I am of George Lucas he might have a point, and Mark Hamill had a point. The Saga has a beginning, a middle and an end. The original is about Luke. The prequel is about the downfall of Anakin Skywalker, as poorly as it was done, regardless. that was Lucas intention. Unless you do a sequel where you have a period of rebuilding and democracy restored, I don’t see a point. The Jedi thriving and vibrant under the New Jedi Order of Luke Skywalker. And how difficult it is to keep the peace. And the threat of the return of evil. It basically would be like Tolkien’s return of the shadow, that he never completed.