George Lucas's Sequel Trilogy — Page 9

oojason said:

Aye, like Broom Kid’s post above - that is pretty much spot on for me, mate.

And like that, it doesn’t address what the problem is with it or what makes it poor.

Yeah, 100%. Along with the infamous lie and woeful attempt at re-writing history / time-travel from Lucas himself - an inane and bizarre attempt to give his then-new midichlorians idea some credibility (for want of a better word)… it certainly didn’t come from when Lucas attempted to claimed it to be - so ‘nowhere’ fits quite aptly.
 

How is it problematic, based on EU material doing something else? All of Star Wars is made up, just like the eu stuff about them having families was made up. Why is this a problem with these things or when they were developed?

Dagenspear said:

oojason said:

Aye, like Broom Kid’s post above - that is pretty much spot on for me, mate.

And like that, it doesn’t address what the problem is with it or what makes it poor.

Yeah, 100%. Along with the infamous lie and woeful attempt at re-writing history / time-travel from Lucas himself - an inane and bizarre attempt to give his then-new midichlorians idea some credibility (for want of a better word)… it certainly didn’t come from when Lucas attempted to claimed it to be - so ‘nowhere’ fits quite aptly.
 

How is it problematic, based on EU material doing something else? All of Star Wars is made up, just like the eu stuff about them having families was made up. Why is this a problem with these things or when they were developed?

The question of “when” is paramount when we’re dealing with real film history versus a bunch of phoney “my original vision” claims that keep changing.

Mocata said:

The question of “when” is paramount when we’re dealing with real film history versus a bunch of phoney “my original vision” claims that keep changing.

But what does that change about what makes the ideas good or bad or a problem or not? How does Lucas’ perceived honesty or lack thereof on when he developed the idea make a writing idea better or worse? How does the “when” make it any more or less of value, or perceived “nowhere”? What’s the difference between ideas from the 70’s/80’s and ideas from the 90’s/2000’s?

Well Lucas said for decades that Luke and Leia were always meant to be twins and Vader was always intended to be Luke Skywalker’s father. Is that lying or mythologizing, it’s hard to say. He might have said it so often and so many times since Return of the Jedi wrapped production that he actually believes it.

Its a big turn from not caring about Vader in the Splinter of the Mind’s Eye story conference, to after The Empire Strikes Back rejiggering the entire Saga to be about his downfall and redemption, instead of Star Wars from the Adventures of Luke Skywalker.

I do know Lucas originally thought of Leia ending up with Luke, Luke is more devoted to her he said in the making of Star Wars, and he also said let her run off with the Wookiee at one point. In the Splinter conference. Does that sound like he thought Leia was of cosmic importance or Anakin’s daughter. Or how about wanting to kill Vader off.

The idea that he had all 6 episodes planned out from one big script is laughable.

Even the prequels as we have them have many discontinuities and retcons form the original films. and plot holes. And are not at all the prequels he was going to make or envisioned in the 1980s.

Reading that he saw Yoda as spiritual guru and Yoga master does not scream Lucas wanted a cartoon Yoda jumping around with a lightsaber. I do accept the view now Of his being ashamed of having been in and leading the Clone Wars. And why he thinks wars not make one great. Its the only way I can forgive those awful scenes in the prequels, if I make up a headcanon. Like I like the idea of Palpatine using a lightsaber as mockery of the Jedi religion and their traditions, but I also doubt Lucas ever intended him to have one at all.

Leia remembering her mom and her dying right after Leia was born makes no sense. Her mom should have survived into her early childhood on Alderaan. And where was the great starpilot or good friend, Anakin was none of those things in the prequel. He wasn’t a cunning warrior. The dude lost every lightsaber fight he ever was in, except the one where he murdered Dooku. Oh, I get people will say the Clone Wars cartoon the Filoni one, filled in some of these things. But you shouldn’t need outside media.

The Padme dying of a broken heart giving birth to the twins, as suited Vader is born on an operating table is powerful, but it broke the OT canon of Leia remembering her mom as a child. I only sort of can forgive it because it creates a poetic scene and has visual symmetry, but Lucas should have adhered to the OT. Like Vader creating Threepio may be interesting because he becomes more machine than man, but that was not originally Threepio’s backstory.

I do like the idea of Anakin being the author of his own pain and the iron mask of Vader being his prison or punishment, because he had a vision of the future and by trying to change Padme’s fate he ensured it. I like the idea of Palpatine being this very evil character, Anakin makes a devil’s bargain. I think the scene in the Opera house is fantastic. It might be the only mention of Midichlorians I don’t really mind, since Sidious could have been lying.

I do wonder if George’s sequels would have been better simply for acknowledging the prequels exist, and therefore a coherent work if you will. A prequel 2.0. Since he had no desire to redo the original trilogy. And Disney’s trilogy was rebels VS empire again. I’m not sure if I wanted to see Hayden as Anakin’s ghost, If that concept was a part of Lucas sequel. On one hand I think Hayden and Mark having a scene together would be cool. On the other hand Luke only knows Sebastian Shaw Anakin. So, I can see why Rian chose to use Yoda.

JadedSkywalker said:

Well Lucas said for decades that Luke and Leia were always meant to be twins and Vader was always intended to be Luke Skywalker’s father. Is that lying or mythologizing, it’s hard to say. He might have said it so often and so many times since Return of the Jedi wrapped production that he actually believes it.

Its a big turn from not caring about Vader in the Splinter of the Mind’s Eye story conference, to after The Empire Strikes Back rejiggering the entire Saga to be about his downfall and redemption, instead of Star Wars from the Adventures of Luke Skywalker.

I do know Lucas originally thought of Leia ending up with Luke, Luke is more devoted to her he said in the making of Star Wars, and he also said let her run off with the Wookiee at one point. In the Splinter conference. Does that sound like he thought Leia was of cosmic importance or Anakin’s daughter. Or how about wanting to kill Vader off.

The idea that he had all 6 episodes planned out from one big script is laughable.

Even the prequels as we have them have many discontinuities and retcons form the original films. and plot holes. And are not at all the prequels he was going to make or envisioned in the 1980s.

Reading that he saw Yoda as spiritual guru and Yoga master does not scream Lucas wanted a cartoon Yoda jumping around with a lightsaber. I do accept the view now Of his being ashamed of having been in and leading the Clone Wars. And why he thinks wars not make one great. Its the only way I can forgive those awful scenes in the prequels, if I make up a headcanon. Like I like the idea of Palpatine using a lightsaber as mockery of the Jedi religion and their traditions, but I also doubt Lucas ever intended him to have one at all.

What does it matter what Lucas may have initially wanted, if he changed his mind? How does it make a story point or character decision terrible? And how are these plot holes or discontinuities?

Most people that I’ve seen in movie reactions who watch these movies for the first time now seemingly, as adults seem to like Yoda’s fighting more than not, so they don’t think they’re awful. Whose more right?

Leia remembering her mom and her dying right after Leia was born makes no sense. Her mom should have survived into her early childhood on Alderaan. And where was the great starpilot or good friend, Anakin was none of those things in the prequel. He wasn’t a cunning warrior. The dude lost every lightsaber fight he ever was in, except the one where he murdered Dooku. Oh, I get people will say the Clone Wars cartoon the Filoni one, filled in some of these things. But you shouldn’t need outside media.

We see both Anakin being what is seen in the movies as a good pilot and friend and cunning warrior in the movies I think, just not all the time. You admitted that we see him do it against Dooku, so the main issue that I see is that you wanted more of it, but that doesn’t really add to the character I think, we see that he was. These complaints never make sense to me in regards to the good friend part. How could Anakin be that good friend but also want to murder Obi-Wan and turn evil and assist the empire in massacring all the Jedi that he was a member of? People seem to want a character that was Obi telling Luke about his dad, when the next two movies revealed not only that Obi shades his honesty, but also I think Anakin simply didn’t work to be all the time. All of Anakin and Obi’s scenes in ROTS are friendly. They’re antagonistic more in AOTC, but saying someone was a good friend doesn’t mean they never got on your nerves or talked back to you. How do the movies contradict what Obi said?

TCW didn’t add anything in that’s needed for Anakin, just showed more of what the movies already showed. Anakin being a cunning warrior is shown at the beginning of ROTS. His pilot skills are shown in TPM and ROTS. And we see Anakin and Obi being friends in all but 2 of their scenes in ROTS. How is there a contradiction or a plot hole there, rather than just something you think we didn’t see enough of?

I want to preface this next part by saying that I do think the Leia remembering Padme thing is an actual contradiction, as it’s something that is actually contradicted by the movies and not just something that the movies didn’t show all the time, but I don’t see it as any larger of a discontinuity than Leia being Luke’s sister in the first place, or more of an issue than things like Luke and Leia kiss or Luke having more of a reaction to the death of a guy he just met than the people who raised him, or how Leia’s reaction to her planet’s destruction being almost entirely glossed over. So, to me, focusing on the Leia remembering Padme so much, I think is kinda not that important overall.

And for me personally I think Padme dying in childbirth makes more sense for everything else, because if Padme lived and only kept Leia I think that opens a whole different can of worms:

Why her and not Luke, why is one given away and the other stays with the mom?

How is staying with her mother being “safely anonymous”, which is what Obi says Leia is in ROTJ?

How does it make sense for Leia to be randomly given to someone in the political arena after her mother dies?

Or, if Padme got with Bail before she died, why would she do that and not go into hiding instead?

If she wasn’t in hiding, then how was Leia hidden from the Emperor and Vader?

That’s not to say that these angles couldn’t possibly be explained, but I think the issue is that the story becomes a house of cards where characters actions either become kinda contrived, don’t make sense and/or other things that they say don’t compute if you abide by one line from Leia in ROTJ. I think it doesn’t even really make sense that Leia’s a princess in the OT, if she was supposed to be hidden from the empire. To me, ROTS patched that as simple and straighforward, Bail was the only one there besides Obi and Yoda who knew who Leia was and offered to take her.

The Padme dying of a broken heart giving birth to the twins, as suited Vader is born on an operating table is powerful, but it broke the OT canon of Leia remembering her mom as a child. I only sort of can forgive it because it creates a poetic scene and has visual symmetry, but Lucas should have adhered to the OT. Like Vader creating Threepio may be interesting because he becomes more machine than man, but that was not originally Threepio’s backstory.

What does it matter what the original backstory was when it wasn’t in the movies? Why should he have adhered to the OT specifically, when the OT doesn’t always adhere to itself?

Threepio’s backstory in the movies isn’t contradicted by Anakin building him.

oojason said:

Indeed - and especially so for an official book titled: ‘The Making of Star Wars - The Definitive Story Behind The Original Film’.

That Rinzler himself felt he needed to try and clarify the issue - due to fans noticing and highlighting George’s failed attempt at re-writing history - (on the official website) is lost on some of those… who wish to downplay or brush aside such topics - and yet are seemingly focused on little else.

Though thankfully not on here…

A brief overview of the OriginalTrilogy•com down the years… | Posting on the OriginalTrilogy•com…

👍
 

The when changes nothing about the story or characters I think. Why does it matter to those things or make them bad? You haven’t answered that.

The one I dislike Is Darth Maul alive. I still think he died in the Phantom Menace. Though its hard to see how it could be as bad as Disney’s return of Sidous. Somehow Palpatine returned. I don’t know if I could even enjoy the novelty of it if I wasn’t familiar with Dark Empire and aware how bad an adaption of that comic the film was.

Luke to Rey a Jedi’s weapon deserves more respect. The entire film was a course correction of the Last Jedi. Luke lifts the ship out of the water. Rey learns she is a Sith by birth in her bloodline. Decides to reject her heritage and adopt the Skywalker/ Jedi lineage.

Is the Darth Maul idea of Lucas a Black Sun or a Crimson Dawn kind of thing.

I think the story should have been about Luke being a father. And the legacy of Vader. Of course, I’m not a screenwriter I don’t make those decisions.

oojason said:

More revisionism and retcons, I think; a quick example would be George making Leia ‘The Chosen One’ in his ST instead.

So?

It would have been intriguing to see how he executed that, for sure. Though for me, TFA, TLJ and DOTF made for, or would have made for, a better ST than what we know of George’s belated ~2012 ST outline (and better than what we got with TROS).
 

How would just empire vs rebels, which is what even DOTF continues on, be better written? How can any trilogy with TFA and TLJ, which have not much of any I think creativity or story to them equal better?

JadedSkywalker said:

Well Lucas said for decades that Luke and Leia were always meant to be twins and Vader was always intended to be Luke Skywalker’s father. Is that lying or mythologizing, it’s hard to say. He might have said it so often and so many times since Return of the Jedi wrapped production that he actually believes it.

Its a big turn from not caring about Vader in the Splinter of the Mind’s Eye story conference, to after The Empire Strikes Back rejiggering the entire Saga to be about his downfall and redemption, instead of Star Wars from the Adventures of Luke Skywalker.

I do know Lucas originally thought of Leia ending up with Luke, Luke is more devoted to her he said in the making of Star Wars, and he also said let her run off with the Wookiee at one point. In the Splinter conference. Does that sound like he thought Leia was of cosmic importance or Anakin’s daughter. Or how about wanting to kill Vader off.

The idea that he had all 6 episodes planned out from one big script is laughable.

Even the prequels as we have them have many discontinuities and retcons form the original films. and plot holes. And are not at all the prequels he was going to make or envisioned in the 1980s.

Reading that he saw Yoda as spiritual guru and Yoga master does not scream Lucas wanted a cartoon Yoda jumping around with a lightsaber. I do accept the view now Of his being ashamed of having been in and leading the Clone Wars. And why he thinks wars not make one great. Its the only way I can forgive those awful scenes in the prequels, if I make up a headcanon. Like I like the idea of Palpatine using a lightsaber as mockery of the Jedi religion and their traditions, but I also doubt Lucas ever intended him to have one at all.

Leia remembering her mom and her dying right after Leia was born makes no sense. Her mom should have survived into her early childhood on Alderaan. And where was the great starpilot or good friend, Anakin was none of those things in the prequel. He wasn’t a cunning warrior. The dude lost every lightsaber fight he ever was in, except the one where he murdered Dooku. Oh, I get people will say the Clone Wars cartoon the Filoni one, filled in some of these things. But you shouldn’t need outside media.

The Padme dying of a broken heart giving birth to the twins, as suited Vader is born on an operating table is powerful, but it broke the OT canon of Leia remembering her mom as a child. I only sort of can forgive it because it creates a poetic scene and has visual symmetry, but Lucas should have adhered to the OT. Like Vader creating Threepio may be interesting because he becomes more machine than man, but that was not originally Threepio’s backstory.

I do like the idea of Anakin being the author of his own pain and the iron mask of Vader being his prison or punishment, because he had a vision of the future and by trying to change Padme’s fate he ensured it. I like the idea of Palpatine being this very evil character, Anakin makes a devil’s bargain. I think the scene in the Opera house is fantastic. It might be the only mention of Midichlorians I don’t really mind, since Sidious could have been lying.

I do wonder if George’s sequels would have been better simply for acknowledging the prequels exist, and therefore a coherent work if you will. A prequel 2.0. Since he had no desire to redo the original trilogy. And Disney’s trilogy was rebels VS empire again. I’m not sure if I wanted to see Hayden as Anakin’s ghost, If that concept was a part of Lucas sequel. On one hand I think Hayden and Mark having a scene together would be cool. On the other hand Luke only knows Sebastian Shaw Anakin. So, I can see why Rian chose to use Yoda.

1. Lucas has never said that Luke and Leia were always meant to be twins, all he said is that he “came up” with the idea of Luke and Leia being twins in March/April 1975. So Lucas could’ve just meant that he came up with the idea in March/April 1975, scrapped it by August 1975, and then brought it back by ESB or ROTJ. Since the roles of Luke, Leia, and Luke’s sibling were already being switched around a lot in 1975 I think that’s certainly plausible.
2. Actually, the idea of Star Wars being Vader’s story wasn’t thought of till 1998 as Lucas confirmed himself
3. I’ve seen little to no genuine evidence that Lucas’s claim of Vader always being Luke’s father is a lie
4. Splinter was always a backup sequel in case ANH failed and wasn’t the sequel Lucas wanted to make, Foster confirmed this.
5. Plenty of Lucas’s confirmed 1980s plans for the prequels have similarities to what we got
6. Whether Yoda could fight with a lightsaber was changed constantly by Lucas during the OT’s development, not the PT’s. In ESB conferences and notes Lucas brought up the idea of Yoda having a lightsaber with a Kiber Crystal which he uses to show Luke how great a warrior he is, in the rough and revised rough drafts Yoda’s Force ghost helps fight Palpatine, and then in the July 1981 conferences Lucas changed his mind and decided Yoda was a guru who didn’t go out and fight anybody. So if anything the PT’s portrayal of Yoda was actually closer to Lucas’s original plan and the scrapped guru idea was what deviated from it. Yoda himself was never supposed to exist until Lucas decided last minute to kill off Obi-Wan, so that’s probably why Lucas kept changing his mind about Yoda’s lore.
7. While Padme dying in childbirth indeed wasn’t planned during ROTJ, Rick McCallum did say Lucas had a new explanation on how Leia remembered her mother in mind for his Underworld series.
8. While you’re correct Vader wasn’t always planned to be Threepio’s creator, Lucas always planned Threepio to be reassembled by a young boy working for a junk dealer and he always intended Anakin to be a slave when he was a kid, so it makes sense to combine those characters cause of how similar they are. It also is poetic since Anakin puts in Threepio’s eye in TPM and it gets pulled out in ROTJ, and Lucas also planned C3PO and R2D2 to be the narrators of the story and be in all nine films since the 80s.
9. Yeah Lucas planned Palpatine to be lying about Plagueis’s ability to save death, but not anything else in the Plagueis story.
10. What’s the issue with the other mentions of midi-chlorians?
11. Luke already canonically saw the Hayden ghost in ROTJ, as the special editions are still the official canon

oojason said:

JadedSkywalker said:

I do wonder if George’s sequels would have been better simply for acknowledging the prequels exist, and therefore a coherent work if you will. A prequel 2.0. Since he had no desire to redo the original trilogy.

More revisionism and retcons, I think; a quick example would be George making Leia ‘The Chosen One’ in his ST instead. It would have been intriguing to see how he executed that, for sure. Though for me, TFA, TLJ and DOTF made for, or would have made for, a better ST than what we know of George’s belated ~2012 ST outline (and better than what we got with TROS).
 

In the same series of interviews where Lucas said Leia was the Chosen One, he also said the Whills created Anakin so I doubt he planned to retcon Anakin being the Chosen One too. I think it’s more likely he intended on Anakin, Luke, and Leia all being integral to balance in their own way (which is also supported by the fact that it was Lucas who created the Mortis arc which features a father, son, and daughter)

oojason said:

JadedSkywalker said:

The one I dislike Is Darth Maul alive. I still think he died in the Phantom Menace. Though its hard to see how it could be as bad as Disney’s return of Sidous. Somehow Palpatine returned. I don’t know if It could even enjoy the novelty of it if I wasn’t familiar with Dark Empire and aware how bad an adaption of that comic the film was.

Yeah, Lucas even re-shot/re-edited the Darth Maul death scene as to split the character in two to make sure fans realised Maul was dead in TPM. I think I remember Lucas describing Maul as something along the lines of a being a henchman, a ‘pawn’, not a main villain etc… at the time when he was being criticised by fans for killing Maul off with little screen time in TPM - given the heavy marketing, PR, and merchandising of Maul as a character.

Of course it makes perfect sense that would bring Maul back to be the main villain in his Sequel Trilogy… 😉
 

For me, that Lucas would still be making ‘The Chosen One’ prophecy a thing in his ST… was a little underwhelming. I’m glad we dodged that particular bullet.

 

I think the story should have been about Luke being a father. And the legacy of Vader.

Aye, that or Leia as a mother, could have made for some fertile ground from a storytelling perspective.

Was it Broom Kid that came up with a similar cracking idea that in a recent post? It may have been making the PT about Padme or Kenobi as the central characters? (I’ll try and find it).

Edit: found it here (it was an idea for the PT)- https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/What-do-you-think-of-The-Prequel-Trilogy-A-general-discussion/id/92975/page/25#1661214
 

True, though Lucas did change his mind about Maul by the time of ROTS’s writing as he considered having Grevious revealed to be him

oojason said:

Yeah, Lucas even re-shot/re-edited the Darth Maul death scene as to split the character in two to make sure fans realised Maul was dead in TPM. I think I remember Lucas describing Maul as something along the lines of a being a henchman, a ‘pawn’, not a main villain etc… at the time when he was being criticised by fans for killing Maul off with little screen time in TPM - given the heavy marketing, PR, and merchandising of Maul as a character.

Of course it makes perfect sense that would bring Maul back to be the main villain in his Sequel Trilogy… 😉
 

So? Retcons have existed in Star Wars since TESB.

I think it makes more sense than introducing a random new villain whose just Palpatine again and then just bringing back Palpatine. That, plus, to me, the empty, irrelevant, black hole of a character that is Kylo Ren.