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George Lucas should get more credit for "saving Anakin Skywalker" in Star Wars: The Clone Wars. — Page 3

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G&G-Fan said:

NFBisms said:

I think if there’s one, individual Clone Wars arc worth watching, it’s The Wrong Jedi arc (season 5 finale arc). Written by a real crime TV writer - Charles Murray - it’s genuinely just good TV and has the chops to pull off its ambitions. When Ventress talks about turning Ahsoka in to “the bondsman”, I popped. It’s good stuff - just solid procedural genre fiction.

And so much of what the show nails is distilled into these four episodes. If you hadn’t watched previous seasons, it catches you up to the character dynamics at the top, and pays them off (for once) in a single taut plotline. Every other episode tables the character development for ROTS, and this is the only one to offer a new dimension to it.

I would agree if Baris’ plan made a lick of sense.
In order for her to have to have done everything she does in the prison, she would’ve either had to have an invisibility power or the ability to phase in and out of corporeal existence. And clairvoyance.

How did she know the exact second to choke Letta? How the hell does a Jedi run around a heavily guarded prison complex with troopers moving everywhere and literally kill some with lightsabers and not get noticed by anybody or caught on the CCTV? Tarkin literally says, “We don’t just have anybody running around in here”. In ANH, our heroes take over the control room (where the cameras likely feed to), disguise as troopers, blow up the cameras in the prison bay, and it’s also part of Vader’s plan for them to escape. Baris couldn’t disguise in trooper armor because her proportions don’t match. The prison is shown to have tip-top security, any Jedi entering immediately have their lightsabers confiscated, and are surrounded by troopers every second. They also can’t enter unless they’re asked there, so how did she get clearance to be in there, and why did her trooper escorts leave her alone?

The arc wants me to be mad at the Jedi and Tarkin, but like, it’s literally physically impossible for it to be anybody but Ahsoka. From their perspective, they did nothing wrong.
Even if Baris’ plan made any sense, Ahsoka’s only argument is, “But they should trust me!”… like they trusted Count Dooku, who Mundi and Windu stood up for, someone who was like a brother to them, only to then get betrayed on Geonosis? They gave him the benefit of the doubt and got their back stabbed, and you’re actually gonna pull that? What a complete lack of empathy. Almost as if we’re just supposed to see Jedi Masters as blocks of wood and not human beings. She expects them to just throw all evidence out the window, I guess. Guess they should’ve also trusted Vader even after those security holograms.
The logical inconsistencies have a ripple effect on every character (which is why, yes, plot holes do matter).

Peak TCW08 is the Umbara arc, Maul + Death Watch, and Fives Inhibitor Chip arc.

Eh, none of this moves the needle for me. Barriss can do what she does just as easily as any of the heroes have done anything they’ve done to the separatists throughout the entire show. It’s not like she doesn’t leave behind bodies. It’s consistent to the logic of a show where a few weeks prior was children going on an adventure through piracy and war zones. The important, written moments as they are presented are what really land.

The last part about how you feel coming out of it re: the Jedi is on you. You’re right about it not plausibly being anyone else, and that’s the point. The messiness of that situation and that you can see where the Jedi Masters are coming from is why it’s good IMO. Ahsoka’s decision (in her eyes) is about what’s right for her, not a critique of the Jedi as individuals, who didn’t unanimously vote against her anyway.

Re: those other good arcs, they’re good but they don’t have the sauce of this one.

Andor: The Rogue One Arc

not a Jedi apologist or a Jedi hater but a secret third thing

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G&G-Fan said:

Even if Baris’ plan made any sense, Ahsoka’s only argument is, “But they should trust me!”… like they trusted Count Dooku, who Mundi and Windu stood up for, someone who was like a brother to them, only to then get betrayed on Geonosis? They gave him the benefit of the doubt and got their back stabbed, and you’re actually gonna pull that? What a complete lack of empathy. Almost as if we’re just supposed to see Jedi Masters as blocks of wood and not human beings. She expects them to just throw all evidence out the window, I guess. Guess they should’ve also trusted Vader even after those security holograms.

I don’t agree with your defense of the Jedi’s actions. Yes, they had a bad experience with Count Dooku, but that shouldn’t cloud their judgment. If they can’t rise above their past failures, what’s the point of all their training? A Jedi should be able to control their emotions and fears, and while it’s wise to be cautious, they shouldn’t let previous bad experiences dictate their present actions. Sure, Dooku turned out to be a traitor, even after they gave him the benefit of the doubt. That was a harsh lesson, no question. But it doesn’t excuse them for letting that experience influence their decisions in the future. In the end, even they don’t seem capable of upholding their own Code, and yet they go around preaching it to others. And after it was revealed that Ahsoka was innocent, you’d expect the Council to at least formally apologize to her, right? But no. The only one who even tried was Plo Koon. Obi-Wan was so embarrassed he couldn’t say a word, and Mace Windu just washed his hands of the whole thing, with his “the Force works in mysterious ways” nonsense. That’s like telling someone who’s just lost a loved one that “God’s plan works in mysterious ways”. No surprise people didn’t like the Jedi in that arc.

“I know that all of you like to dream about space and are a little bit of envious of us. But you know what? We’re also envious of you. We are exploring space, but it’s only the beginning. Planets and unknown worlds are awaiting you. You will continue to storm the Universe.”

— Yuri Gagarin

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I struggle myself with this one, because of my love for archival material. I know the community has basically done all the work just not the official approval on the theatrical releases, and the library of Congress got the one from the copyright loophole. I also understand the need for a final vision, however the vision is non-existent at this point. I’m not saying that because I hate the sequals or anything but logically George had little input in some of the projects and other projects built on those projects, so it’s very outside the realm of vision he had in the beginning. (Also I like the clone wars more than the originals (it’s just what I was grown with)). I would largely say if it meant me dying or George Lucas from dying I’d die. He is a treasured storyteller for Gods sake. Also Dave is mostly doing a good job. It’s all art so in the end George Lucas is the only person you should thank if you love star wars.

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This debate is pointless.

Lucas deserves even more of the blame for the fact that Anakin (and other things) needed fixing. Doesn’t particularly matter how much credit he should get for fixing things (or even if that was successfully done); it’s like crediting someone for partially filling a hole in when they dug the hole themselves in the first place.

ROTJ Storyboard Reconstruction Project

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I can only speak for me personally, but what significantly redeemed Anakin for me (Hayden’s depiction precisely) was his portrayal in the Ahsoka show. That’s exactly how I’ve wanted to see Anakin ever since I could imagine him from the original trilogy. As a general and a leader, not a nagging, temper tantrum throwing little brat. I haven’t watched the clone wars cartoon in a long time because it’s very offputting to me. It feels too kiddy and the blocky character designs just make me wanna pull my hair out. Now the Star Wars republic comics aka Clone Wars collected volumes by dark horse are amazing and the only clone wars I actually care about.

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no tcw is not lucas canon most of the retcons is from filoni alone even if you say the eu was never canon and it also contraticts the films but grievous fighting grievous many times is not a contratiction and neither anakin fighting dooku i mean maybe anakin fighting dooku the many times that happened is a contratiction but it would not be a contratiction if it didn´t happened many times and obi-wan and anakin fighting him at the same time is a contratiction to and when grievous said i have been trained in your jedi arts by count dooku he meant that dooku never train him in the jedi arts only taugh him how to swing a lightsaber like ventress told grievous it doesn´t mean that they never meet before

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originally it was meant to be lucas canon but ended up not being lucas canon

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i do like tcw but its not lucas canon it contraticts not only the eu but also the movies filoni is a prequel hater that is why he contraticted the movies but the show is still good but its overeated and the prequels are superior

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no lucas has nothing to do with anakin character on tcw why george would aprove making anakin inconsistent?

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timdiggerm said:

This debate is pointless.

Lucas deserves even more of the blame for the fact that Anakin (and other things) needed fixing. Doesn’t particularly matter how much credit he should get for fixing things (or even if that was successfully done); it’s like crediting someone for partially filling a hole in when they dug the hole themselves in the first place.

Aye. You nailed it, mate.

(I also read your post in the voice of Tarkin) 😉
 

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What I don’t get is Luke had character development in the OT and why was it so difficult for Lucas to do the same for Anakin and also connect it to the original, like the speech Obi-Wan gave about Luke’s father in Star Wars.

You had Anakin as kind and generous in Episode I. But once you see him in episode II he is already a sullen asshole. Completely unlikable, and he never obeys his masters. I suppose that is supposed to make him look like a maverick, like the fact he openly marries a woman in secret against his Jedi wows. so, Lucas can do the dumb forbidden romance thing.

I don’t like the Padme pushed Anakin to the dark side because of love. So, if he died a celibate monk like Rian’s version of Luke Skywalker he never would have been Darth Vader? Go to a monastery and meditate Anakin. Or play politics in the Jedi council, don’t love a flesh and blood woman.

I honestly hate the chosen one thing because it makes him fated to be Vader, he had no choice he started as a slave, he ended as a slave. He could have chosen to not be evil.

Giving him a leadership role in Clone Wars and making him a Jedi master without the rank does expand the character. But it does not fit the prequel, but nor does Darth Maul surviving. And Ahsoka does not even appear in the movies, as in she never existed.

I also don’t like how the Jedi get younglings separate them from their parent’s and allow no familiar bond. They allow no attachments, this is very unnatural and why Anakin is so messed up, he grew up without a mother and father. He was surrounded by a monastic order and giving mantras. And taught how to use a laser sword. But not how to master his fear, not how to relate to other human beings. His entire life is stunted he never grows. He merely has power levels like he is Goku or something. They are training him for what? Until the Sith were revealed, the Jedi didn’t have a standing army and no formal conflict with other force users. What did they need martial skills for. training him to be a deadly assassin and hoping he doesn’t turn his blade on them, or become a Ronin or a Sith.

Anakin probably should not have been trained if he lacked basic empathy, or he lacked emotional maturity. Never mind being a soldier of the Republic like Palpatine’s sword. Give a young man power, teach him to kill and fight in a war. Act surprised when he turns rogue. All the while you’ve been distrusting of him and afraid of his growing power. And you keep telling him he is the chosen one. You make sure the rules don’t apply to him, and he is too big to fail.

The star pupil of Kenobi. The hubris of Kenobi is absolutely legend. I thought I could instruct him just as well as Yoda, my pride had devastating consequences for the Galaxy. Obi-Wan in the Return of the Jedi novelization.

When Yoda tells Anakin not to mourn or miss Padme that was straight up BS. No wonder he was easy putty in Sidious hands. He should just have left the order behind and all their false platitudes. Why didn’t he leave with Padme to raise his children in peace. Let the Jedi rot. There is no need to save the Galaxy from the Sith if Anakin never shifted the balance in their favor. No need to be a chosen one. The Empire couldn’t have come into being without Vader helping it. Or the Jedi being insipid and wrong. With all their discussions and endless politics. They have a complete inability to act, and when they finally did they were maneuvered by Palpatine like pawns in a game of chess.

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JadedSkywalker said:

What I don’t get is Luke had character development in the OT and why was it so difficult for Lucas to do the same for Anakin and also connect it to the original, like the speech Obi-Wan gave about Luke’s father in Star Wars.

You had Anakin as kind and generous in Episode I. But once you see him in episode II he is already a sullen asshole. Completely unlikable, and he never obeys his masters. I suppose that is supposed to make him look like a maverick, like the fact he openly marries a woman in secret against his Jedi wows. so, Lucas can do the dumb forbidden romance thing.

I don’t like the Padme pushed Anakin to the dark side because of love. So, if he died a celibate monk like Rian’s version of Luke Skywalker he never would have been Darth Vader? Go to a monastery and meditate Anakin. Or play politics in the Jedi council, don’t love a flesh and blood woman.

I honestly hate the chosen one thing because it makes him fated to be Vader, he had no choice he started as a slave, he ended as a slave. He could have chosen to not be evil.

Giving him a leadership role in Clone Wars and making him a Jedi master without the rank does expand the character. But it does not fit the prequel, but nor does Darth Maul surviving. And Ahsoka does not even appear in the movies, as in she never existed.

I also don’t like how the Jedi get younglings separate them from their parent’s and allow no familiar bond. They allow no attachments, this is very unnatural and why Anakin is so messed up, he grew up without a mother and father. He was surrounded by a monastic order and giving mantras. And taught how to use a laser sword. But not how to master his fear, not how to relate to other human beings. His entire life is stunted he never grows. He merely has power levels like he is Goku or something. They are training him for what? Until the Sith were revealed, the Jedi didn’t have a standing army and no formal conflict with other force users. What did they need martial skills for. training him to be a deadly assassin and hoping he doesn’t turn his blade on them, or become a Ronin or a Sith.

Anakin probably should not have been trained if he lacked basic empathy, or he lacked emotional maturity. Never mind being a soldier of the Republic like Palpatine’s sword. Give a young man power, teach him to kill and fight in a war. Act surprised when he turns rogue. All the while you’ve been distrusting of him and afraid of his growing power. And you keep telling him he is the chosen one. You make sure the rules don’t apply to him, and he is too big to fail.

The star pupil of Kenobi. The hubris of Kenobi is absolutely legend. I thought I could instruct him just as well as Yoda, my pride had devastating consequences for the Galaxy. Obi-Wan in the Return of the Jedi novelization.

When Yoda tells Anakin not to mourn or miss Padme that was straight up BS. No wonder he was easy putty in Sidious hands. He should just have left the order behind and all their false platitudes. Why didn’t he leave with Padme to raise his children in peace. Let the Jedi rot. There is no need to save the Galaxy from the Sith if Anakin never shifted the balance in their favor. No need to be a chosen one. The Empire couldn’t have come into being without Vader helping it. Or the Jedi being insipid and wrong. With all their discussions and endless politics. They have a complete inability to act, and when they finally did they were maneuvered by Palpatine like pawns in a game of chess.

I’m not a prequel lover by any means but a lot of this isn’t quite accurate. In addition to a dumb forbidden love thing, the Padme issue is supposed to be about the dangers of fear and jealousy. It’s not really bad that Anakin fell in love or got married, it’s that he let his passion cloud his judgment, so he got carried away and manipulated. Like you said he really could have left at any time, but he was also ambitious and power hungry. His desire to save people from death overlapped with “I’m going to be the most powerful Jedi ever” and getting offended that he wasn’t a trusted master. He wanted to have his cake and eat it too.

The Jedi do train people to master their fear, that’s part of the point. They can relate to others and generally don’t turn out messed up. Obi Wan has friends and likes to drink. Anakin was just written/directed as a weirdo.

The Jedi obviously have martial training because they’re constantly going on dangerous missions. That’s the point of the lightsaber, you can use it to block blaster bolts. In a world of guns it’s a defensive weapon. Fighting other people with lightsabers is secondary if they aren’t around.

Going by what is actually portrayed on screen, the Jedi were pretty much right about everything and it was Anakin’s own fault for not following the rules. Their main flaw is that they were written as really stupid and missed obvious information in the Attack of the Clones conspiracy plot.

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NFBisms said:

Anakin Skywalker was not manipulated 🤓

Elaborate please

I’m just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe.

Star Wars has 3 eras: The eras are 1977-1983(pre Expanded Universe), (1983-2014) expanded universe, or (2014- now) Disney-bought version. Each are valid.

My movie reviews aren’t AI, they’re just written by someone who’s Neurodivergent. If you don’t like them, then simply don’t read them.

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I don’t think I ever articulated it better than I did in this conversation with Channel72 (including the next few replies)

It doesn’t excuse any of the bad stuff but I do think people tend to project a lack of agency onto his arc. So many of us have been working backwards from the grandfathered critiques of the prequels’ stupid plot, and not really engaging with where it is at least trying to interplay with the themes of the OT. (I also think this understanding is entirely consistent to The Clone Wars Anakin!)

A lot of this stuff “works” better in conversation with the OT, exactly as movies made decades after. Of course they fail to complete the fabled saga where Star Wars (1977) is a fourth installment, but as idiosyncratic Lucas joints commenting on them, they are fascinating to dissect. Don’t let anyone try to squash that curiosity!

Andor: The Rogue One Arc

not a Jedi apologist or a Jedi hater but a secret third thing

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Absolutely excellent and spot on analysis.

I’m just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe.

Star Wars has 3 eras: The eras are 1977-1983(pre Expanded Universe), (1983-2014) expanded universe, or (2014- now) Disney-bought version. Each are valid.

My movie reviews aren’t AI, they’re just written by someone who’s Neurodivergent. If you don’t like them, then simply don’t read them.

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NFBisms said:

I don’t think I ever articulated it better than I did in this conversation with Channel72 (including the next few replies)

It doesn’t excuse any of the bad stuff but I do think people tend to project a lack of agency onto his arc. So many of us have been working backwards from the grandfathered critiques of the prequels’ stupid plot, and not really engaging with where it is at least trying to interplay with the themes of the OT. (I also think this understanding is entirely consistent to The Clone Wars Anakin!)

A lot of this stuff “works” better in conversation with the OT, exactly as movies made decades after. Of course they fail to complete the fabled saga where Star Wars (1977) is a fourth installment, but as idiosyncratic Lucas joints commenting on them, they are fascinating to dissect. Don’t let anyone try to squash that curiosity!

I agree with most of this, but I still think Palpatine did some manipulation. He led Anakin to believe that he was going to be a super special council member with the Jedi, knowing that would cause more friction. He used a lot of flattery to get Anakin on his side and gas him up. It’s possible that he had something to do with Anakin’s nightmares, but either way he exploited them by dropping the Plagueis story and telling Anakin he could save Padme, knowing that it was a bait and switch and that he didn’t actually know how to do what Plagueis did. Whoops, I know you just helped me kill Mace Windu, but no refunds.