George was telling the truth about the Father Vader twist going back to ANH, but so was Kurtz:

I think the original back-story circa the Third draft of Star Wars was that Annikin (Luke’s father) had actually killed the Sith knight Darth Vader and took his identity - possibly to usurp/infiltrate both the Empire and the Sith organization, and either Ben Kenobi knew or didn’t know this*. With the Revised Fourth draft via Kenobi’s dialogue Lucas reverses this, and this reversal was set-up imho to function in two different ways: a ‘literal’ sense (especially had Star Wars not done so well at the box-office) and a ‘metaphorical sense’, keeping his options open either way. Also, Kenobi become implicitly aware of what happened to Luke’s father and Vader. With Empire (ESB), Lucas either went with the ‘metaphorical’ sense of Vader having ‘killed’ or ‘destroyed’ Luke’s father, or…he decided (at least for the time being) to go back to his ‘original’ idea from the Third draft ('Annikin killed Vader, then ‘became’ Vader). Kurtz at least may have thought Lucas intended to stick with this; see his later remarks on what he thought the original ‘redemption angle’ for Vader vis-a-vis Luke was going to be about. We can only be certain that by ROTJ, Lucas decided on Anakin turning to the dark side and becoming Vader. At least with my theory, Luke’s father and Vader indeed were originally two separate people. The father twist came before Lucas had actually ‘merged’ the two characters. Edit to add: Luke’s father Annikin doesn’t seem to have had the ‘pilot’ aspect added to his character until the Fourth draft, which may indicate he’d already merged them together.

*also keep in mind that in this draft, Ben didn’t seem to be hiding in exile on Utapau (Tatooine), and the Rebel Alliance didn’t seem to know or care that he was there (they don’t seek out his help in this draft)

edit to add:

There’s also the not so small matter of Lucas telling Alan Dean Foster when the latter was beginning to write ‘Splinter of the Mind’s Eye’ to not delve into Vader’s back-story at all. Keep in mind this was in 1976.

Superweapon VII said:

JF_Sanderson said:

I wonder if at any point developing Rotj, George considered making Luke into “Luke Vader” and keeping Anakin a separate character than Darth.

He should’ve.

I used to think so as well. Or rather, that it was possible that that’s what he did (actually, I thought maybe George considered it for ANH and for TESB, but changed it for ROTJ).

In the scenario I’m proposing, they would be two separate characters as well. The difference being that the one who died in the back-story was Vader, rather than Anakin. And Anakin took on the former’s identity. I’m mainly extrapolating and triangulating between Lucas and Kurtz’s statements to get a clearer picture of what I think the original plans were for the OT. And I think ROTJ is when Lucas changed it. I’m aware that the ‘consensus’ view is that Anakin wasn’t Vader/Vader wasn’t Luke’s father until the second draft of TESB, but I think this view has been accepted too uncritically.

JF_Sanderson said:

I wonder if at any point developing Rotj, George considered making Luke into “Luke Vader” and keeping Anakin a separate character than Darth.

You may be on to something there. After all, in both of the drafts of the scripts that George wrote prior to Kasdan coming aboard, Luke’s father is never called Anakin; actually, he’s not named at all (though the name already had existed for quite some time). Also, there’s no “certain point of view” stuff from Kenobi in these drafts either. 😉

Gary Kurtz: “When we made Star Wars, Vader and Anakin were two separate people. The idea that Vader was Luke’s father didn’t exist. I remember Lucas talked about Anakin having killed Vader and then taking his identity, but that was dropped early on. The whole twist in Empire was new and unexpected.”

Star Wars Insider #138, 2011

JF_Sanderson said:

Darth being a real guy + Anakin stealing his identity would be a great twist. That or the other scenario (Anakin dead but Vader is the real dad with Mrs Skywalker) would make revelations in Rotj much more exciting and the prequels a LOT more surprising. And Old Ben wouldn’t have to be a damn lying liar.

I agree.

Basically, the Gary Kurtz quote shows that I was wrong. Lucas did NOT merge Vader and Anakin until Empire (ESB), and it was with Empire, not Jedi (ROTJ) that he did this. The earlier ‘father Vader twist’ idea that Lucas had during the writing stage/pre-production of SW (ANH) was dropped before the final version of the script was done.

What’s wild is that this particular idea - unlike the ‘Anakin dead but Vader is Luke’s real dad’ idea or the ‘Vader as clone of Luke’s dad’ ideas - was on-record as actually an idea considered by George Lucas at one time (while ANH was being developed/written, no less). And also that this idea - along with the Vader-is-a-clone-of-Dad idea - was part of a magazine article speculation from a 1981 issue of Fangora magazine. Though I suspect it may have had it’s origins as a genuine leak from LFL - possibly from before Gary Kurtz had departed from the company - rather than just a lucky guess or sheer coincidence.

As far as how things played out in Empire and Jedi:
I think more and more it’s looking to me that with the second draft of ESB (written solely by George) one could say that he did by then have the basic story/plot for Jedi (ROTJ) written - at least as far as the Vader-is-Anakin twist plus maybe even Leia as the sister/Jedi Other hope. I think by then he had not only dropped the ‘Neilith Skwalker’ idea* as Luke’s sister/the Other hope, but he had also dropped his plan** that he (together with Kurtz) had of the saga’s story extending to nine episodes (let alone twelve), and had sort of went back to his end-of-1975 proposal of the saga just going to be three movies only (not counting the prequel back-story episodes).

*see the first draft of ESB by Leigh Brackett
** where the Emperor presumably wouldn’t appear in-person in the story until Episode Nine

JF_Sanderson said:

Darth being a real guy + Anakin stealing his identity would be a great twist. That or the other scenario (Anakin dead but Vader is the real dad with Mrs Skywalker) would make revelations in Rotj much more exciting and the prequels a LOT more surprising. And Old Ben wouldn’t have to be a damn lying liar.

That, to me, seems twisty for the sake of it. What does it change or really add if Anakin stole Vader’s identity story or character wise or if Vader is a different guy who is Luke’s dad?

Tosche Station said:

Gary Kurtz: “When we made Star Wars, Vader and Anakin were two separate people. The idea that Vader was Luke’s father didn’t exist. I remember Lucas talked about Anakin having killed Vader and then taking his identity, but that was dropped early on. The whole twist in Empire was new and unexpected.”

Star Wars Insider #138, 2011

Tosche Station said:

Basically, the Gary Kurtz quote shows that I was wrong. Lucas did NOT merge Vader and Anakin until Empire (ESB), and it was with Empire, not Jedi (ROTJ) that he did this. The earlier ‘father Vader twist’ idea that Lucas had during the writing stage/pre-production of SW (ANH) was dropped before the final version of the script was done.

Or it’s an alternative take from Kurtz.

However, I did find, though I don’t know too much about it, this:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/50/21/21/5021214ea8807dd151264234afa0276f.jpg

Seemingly an interview with David Prowse before the filming of TESB where Prowse seems to spoil the twist that Vader is Luke’s dad.

Dagenspear said:

JF_Sanderson said:

Darth being a real guy + Anakin stealing his identity would be a great twist. That or the other scenario (Anakin dead but Vader is the real dad with Mrs Skywalker) would make revelations in Rotj much more exciting and the prequels a LOT more surprising. And Old Ben wouldn’t have to be a damn lying liar.

That, to me, seems twisty for the sake of it. What does it change or really add if Anakin stole Vader’s identity story or character wise or if Vader is a different guy who is Luke’s dad?

Tosche Station said:

Gary Kurtz: “When we made Star Wars, Vader and Anakin were two separate people. The idea that Vader was Luke’s father didn’t exist. I remember Lucas talked about Anakin having killed Vader and then taking his identity, but that was dropped early on. The whole twist in Empire was new and unexpected.”

Star Wars Insider #138, 2011

Tosche Station said:

Basically, the Gary Kurtz quote shows that I was wrong. Lucas did NOT merge Vader and Anakin until Empire (ESB), and it was with Empire, not Jedi (ROTJ) that he did this. The earlier ‘father Vader twist’ idea that Lucas had during the writing stage/pre-production of SW (ANH) was dropped before the final version of the script was done.

Or it’s an alternative take from Kurtz.

However, I did find, though I don’t know too much about it, this:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/50/21/21/5021214ea8807dd151264234afa0276f.jpg

Seemingly an interview with David Prowse before the filming of TESB where Prowse seems to spoil the twist that Vader is Luke’s dad.

I don’t know about it being twisty just for the sake of it, well maybe the ‘Luke is really Vader’s kid, he’s not Skywalker Sr’s son’ concept can be said to be twisty for the sake of it. The Anakin killing Vader then taking Vader’s identity twist perhaps would mean not so much a family bloodline story but more of a ‘Darth Vader is not who you think he is’ type of story. And it does change things, especially if it’s a bit of subterfuge where neither the Sith, Sith Master, The Emperor, or even Ben Kenobi knew the real truth. And, if the story is/was true, Lucas did eventually drop the idea anyway before even beginning to write the final draft of the script. I used to think perhaps Kurtz had an alternate take on the twist, but in the quote(s) he still maintains that the twist that we’re all familiar with didn’t come about until the second draft of Empire (ESB). This would mean that instead of the truth confirming Lucas’s often made claim that Vader was Luke’s father when they made ANH, it would mean that at best, Lucas toyed with a variation of the twist idea before dropping it and going with the Vader-killed-Luke’s father story. An idea which if you think about it, almost sounds like a mirror-reversal or flip of the ‘Anakin-killed-Vader’ idea. One could also say that the twist that Empire brought about was Lucas’ older dropped idea but having been run ‘through the wringer’ of the concept of Vader having killed Luke’s father, where everyone - Sith, Empire, Ben Kenobi were all in the know, but now a literal killing being re-cast as a metaphorical killing (and the ‘certain point of view’ aspect being added in the later drafts written for ROTJ).

Whatever path they took to eventually land on the most famous twist in cinematic history, the idea was not original to Lucas or Kurtz. It almost certainly was inspired by the same twist in DUNE, the novel, where Paul Atreides finds out he is the grandson of the primary villain, Vladimir Harkonnen. And so many other aspects of Star Wars seem lifted or inspired by Dune, I think it’s fairly obvious at this point, if Lucas was wrestling with anything about Vader’s backstory, it was how much ‘on the nose’ he could be without looking like he actually ripped it off directly from Dune.

Tosche Station said:

I don’t know about it being twisty just for the sake of it, well maybe the ‘Luke is really Vader’s kid, he’s not Skywalker Sr’s son’ concept can be said to be twisty for the sake of it. The Anakin killing Vader then taking Vader’s identity twist perhaps would mean not so much a family bloodline story but more of a ‘Darth Vader is not who you think he is’ type of story. And it does change things, especially if it’s a bit of subterfuge where neither the Sith, Sith Master, The Emperor, or even Ben Kenobi knew the real truth. And, if the story is/was true, Lucas did eventually drop the idea anyway before even beginning to write the final draft of the script. I used to think perhaps Kurtz had an alternate take on the twist, but in the quote(s) he still maintains that the twist that we’re all familiar with didn’t come about until the second draft of Empire (ESB). This would mean that instead of the truth confirming Lucas’s often made claim that Vader was Luke’s father when they made ANH, it would mean that at best, Lucas toyed with a variation of the twist idea before dropping it and going with the Vader-killed-Luke’s father story. An idea which if you think about it, almost sounds like a mirror-reversal or flip of the ‘Anakin-killed-Vader’ idea. One could also say that the twist that Empire brought about was Lucas’ older dropped idea but having been run ‘through the wringer’ of the concept of Vader having killed Luke’s father, where everyone - Sith, Empire, Ben Kenobi were all in the know, but now a literal killing being re-cast as a metaphorical killing (and the ‘certain point of view’ aspect being added in the later drafts written for ROTJ).

I don’t think one necessarily automatically contradicts the other, depending on one’s perspective. To Lucas, as an example, that he was toying with the idea may be enough for him to say it was planned out, in theory. Or he could be just being exaggerating. I dunno.

CitizenofBespin said:

Whatever path they took to eventually land on the most famous twist in cinematic history, the idea was not original to Lucas or Kurtz. It almost certainly was inspired by the same twist in DUNE, the novel, where Paul Atreides finds out he is the grandson of the primary villain, Vladimir Harkonnen. And so many other aspects of Star Wars seem lifted or inspired by Dune, I think it’s fairly obvious at this point, if Lucas was wrestling with anything about Vader’s backstory, it was how much ‘on the nose’ he could be without looking like he actually ripped it off directly from Dune.

I don’t think Kurtz would have failed to mention Lucas having been inspired by Dune for this particular plot point (even the dropped part) if the above were the case. Kurtz gives credit solely to Lucas for both twists - the earlier dropped one (for ANH), and the one Lucas eventually settled on (circa the second draft of Empire). Plus, Frank Hebert definitely would have called foul against Lucas on this particular element if what you’re saying were true.