That’s how it played out in the leaked second draft of DotF, and tbh, I don’t like it. It feels weirdly disconnected having the lightsaber on a completely different planet. They move it to the same planet in the next draft iirc.
Regardless, the Battle of Exegol simply does not work without Rey and Ben being there. Them fighting Palpatine is the lynchpin of that entire scene.
That’s how it played out in the leaked second draft of DotF, and tbh, I don’t like it. It feels weirdly disconnected having the lightsaber on a completely different planet. They move it to the same planet in the next draft iirc.
Regardless, the Battle of Exegol simply does not work without Rey and Ben being there. Them fighting Palpatine is the lynchpin of that entire scene.
yes i agree with that about DotF. While there were certainly some aspects in DotF that seems cooler than what we got. The whole finale battle thing seems a little odd. Kylo is on a complete independent vendetta and the their final duel is disconnected from the battle at hand.
The battle of exegol is essentially a re-run of ROTJ where its palpatine trying to goad said subject to strike him down to fulfill his objective. While there are elements that are different than ROTJ (dyad, palpatine actually restoring himself etc). At this piont, its a matter of taste on how different it is to ROTJ and if there are any creative/meaningful ways to make the rey, ben, palpatine interaction more “original/novel” but thats a different discussion. I personally like what we got in episode 9 for what it was worth
At this point, its a matter of taste on how different it is to ROTJ and if there are any creative/meaningful ways to make the rey, ben, palpatine interaction more “original/novel” but thats a different discussion.
Actually, this is exactly the discussion I’m wanting to have!
I feel like you could make Rey and Kylo’s duel on the Death Star relevant to the battle of Exegol if you can establish one. For example, if Kylo has ordered for the fleet to wait for his return, then Rey keeping him distracted can connect the two plots. Or, if the Wayfinder’s function could be changed, maybe the Wayfinder can be used to control the entire fleet (like a remote control), then Rey getting would play a role that could have an effect on the battle, even though she is light years away.
Again, not saying I hate the movie as it is. Just spitballing.
At this point, its a matter of taste on how different it is to ROTJ and if there are any creative/meaningful ways to make the rey, ben, palpatine interaction more “original/novel” but thats a different discussion.
Actually, this is exactly the discussion I’m wanting to have!
I feel like you could make Rey and Kylo’s duel on the Death Star relevant to the battle of Exegol if you can establish one. For example, if Kylo has ordered for the fleet to wait for his return, then Rey keeping him distracted can connect the two plots. Or, if the Wayfinder’s function could be changed, maybe the Wayfinder can be used to control the entire fleet (like a remote control), then Rey getting would play a role that could have an effect on the battle, even though she is light years away.
Again, not saying I hate the movie as it is. Just spitballing.
haha i dont interpret this as u hating the movie as it is. Very similar to myself. I like to have different options available. So in your new spitball suggestion. Would Kylo be left as unredeemed? or redeemed at the very last moment? What about palpatine? I do like this idea.
The battle of exegol is essentially a re-run of ROTJ where its palpatine trying to goad said subject to strike him down to fulfill his objective. While there are elements that are different than ROTJ (dyad, palpatine actually restoring himself etc). At this piont, its a matter of taste on how different it is to ROTJ and if there are any creative/meaningful ways to make the rey, ben, palpatine interaction more “original/novel” but thats a different discussion. I personally like what we got in episode 9 for what it was worth
Is it a rerun though? In RotJ it was Luke versus Vader with the Emperor watching. Him dying came as a surprise to him. In TRoS, Ben is already redeemed and both him and Rey have come with the explicit intention of killing him. It’s more like the LEGO SW level than the actual scene in RotJ.
If you guy really want the duel to take place during the battle, what if you just made Kef Bir and Exegol the same planet?
The battle of exegol is essentially a re-run of ROTJ where its palpatine trying to goad said subject to strike him down to fulfill his objective. While there are elements that are different than ROTJ (dyad, palpatine actually restoring himself etc). At this piont, its a matter of taste on how different it is to ROTJ and if there are any creative/meaningful ways to make the rey, ben, palpatine interaction more “original/novel” but thats a different discussion. I personally like what we got in episode 9 for what it was worth
Is it a rerun though? In RotJ it was Luke versus Vader with the Emperor watching. Him dying came as a surprise to him. In TRoS, Ben is already redeemed and both him and Rey have come with the explicit intention of killing him. It’s more like the LEGO SW level than the actual scene in RotJ.
If you guy really want the duel to take place during the battle, what if you just made Kef Bir and Exegol the same planet?
Didn’t someone’s edit version do something like that? i forgot whose…
Joshuabri’s no Palpatine edit has the climax intercut between the Death Star duel and the battle of Exegol.
Something I’ve been working on in my edit is removing the Jedi voices at Exegol entirely. Had to rebuild the audio pretty much from scratch but I like the scene a lot more now, leaves Williams’ to shine and a lot more room for interpretation.
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Either way, you kind of just end the series with an old man’s face getting melted.
Which is a tradition for all 3 trilogies.
Nice work bbghost
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The battle of exegol is essentially a re-run of ROTJ where its palpatine trying to goad said subject to strike him down to fulfill his objective. While there are elements that are different than ROTJ (dyad, palpatine actually restoring himself etc). At this piont, its a matter of taste on how different it is to ROTJ and if there are any creative/meaningful ways to make the rey, ben, palpatine interaction more “original/novel” but thats a different discussion. I personally like what we got in episode 9 for what it was worth
Is it a rerun though? In RotJ it was Luke versus Vader with the Emperor watching. Him dying came as a surprise to him. In TRoS, Ben is already redeemed and both him and Rey have come with the explicit intention of killing him. It’s more like the LEGO SW level than the actual scene in RotJ.
If you guy really want the duel to take place during the battle, what if you just made Kef Bir and Exegol the same planet?
That would require a lot of work. Maybe make the Water somehow frozen, but it could work. If Kef Bur was maybe a different part of Exegol. It’s a weird concept, but would be cool.
#TROSFAN
One thing that could help the ST as a whole would be making the First Order into more of an Imperial remnant who is hellbent on reclaiming the galaxy but isn’t really in a position to do so. They destroy the Republic capital, but that was basically the sum of their might. Once SKB is destroyed, it’s only the lack of the New Republic’s fleet that allows them to pose a threat. In TLJ, they would visually be downgraded in their firepower and shown to be fledging and even wounded due to the loss of their main base. In TROS, they’d be desperate for Palpatine’s old imperial fleet he stockpiled, because it’d give them a huge leg up.
One thing that could help the ST as a whole would be making the First Order into more of an Imperial remnant who is hellbent on reclaiming the galaxy but isn’t really in a position to do so. They destroy the Republic capital, but that was basically the sum of their might. Once SKB is destroyed, it’s only the lack of the New Republic’s fleet that allows them to pose a threat. In TLJ, they would visually be downgraded in their firepower and shown to be fledging and even wounded due to the loss of their main base. In TROS, they’d be desperate for Palpatine’s old imperial fleet he stockpiled, because it’d give them a huge leg up.
I think you just described what the mando-verse seems to be going for.
In terms of what you were saying, I always did get that idea in TROS at least, they are “in need of/could use the assistance” for Palpatine’s imperial stockpile. my head canon just assumed that the holdo maneuver gave the first order’s fleet a dent in their arsenal, which bought the resistance time to rebuild as well, despite the first order is ahead of them. Something ive always personally liked about palpatine’s fleet on exegol is that if unleashed it has more destructive potential than the galactic empire could be. So it’s a situation where its not a repeat of the OT where the empire is already ruling and the rebels is to overthrow it, but in the case of TROS where the final order was on the verge of executing their plan.
What could be done in TLJ? Make their flagship… smaller? Spell this out in the crawl?
Have the crawl for TLJ state that there is a power vacuum now that the Republic and First Order have each been decimated, with Snoke launching assaults to claim as many important star systems as he can.
What could be done in TLJ? Make their flagship… smaller? Spell this out in the crawl?
Most likely, it woulds have to be something done in the crawl.
What all do you infer from the Mando-verse to suggest this will end up being the orthodox understanding, over and against what TLJ depicts? (Ala retconning Ben’s slaughter of Luke’s students.)
What could be done in TLJ? Make their flagship… smaller? Spell this out in the crawl?
Most likely, it woulds have to be something done in the crawl.
I always interpreted the First Order as being analogous to Daesh in the way the Empire was analogous to the Nazis. They’re a small group who nobody took seriously because they assumed there was no way they could sieze so much territory so quickly, and then, they took over by siezing so much territory really quickly. My own edit of TLJ tries to evoke this in the crawl as so:
The FIRST ORDER reigns. The New Republic has been decimated, and in this state of galactic confusion, Supreme Leader Snoke’s armies have seized key territories and taken military control of the galaxy.
Only General Leia Organa’s band of RESISTANCE fighters stand against the rising tyranny, certain that Jedi Master Luke Skywalker will return and restore a spark of hope to the fight.
But the Resistance has been exposed. As the First Order speeds toward their rebel base, the brave heroes mount a desperate escape…
“It’s like rhymetry. They poem.” - Leorge Gucas
TROS Novelisation: The Faraday Edit, TLJ: Stoic Edition, ROTS: The Faraday Nudge, ROTS Ultracut: Order 66, Kenobi: Faraday Cut, Godzilla Vs Megalon, Godzilla Vs Gigan, Godzilla: Final Wars, The Light Rises, Faraday Jr.'s Star Wars
Tbh this has always been the way I saw the First Order. People always complain about how overpowered they seem because they have bigger ships, bigger walkers, a bigger Death Star, etc. but if you look at it from a story perspective they really always seemed much smaller than the Empire. In the OT you always got the sense that you were only looking at a fraction of the Empire’s might - the secret Death Star project in ANH & Vader’s personal quest in TESB. But the Empire had control over the entire galaxy, there was always a sense that there were other equally great imperial operations going on somewhere else, officers were surprised that the Emperor would take the time to contact Vader, and outright shocked when he decides to personally oversee the completion of the second Death Star.
Now compare that to the First Order, in TFA the galaxy is under rule of the New Republic so, despite being introduced as this misterious Emperor-like character, there really is no sense that Snoke has much else going on. Moreover, he seems highly invested in the Luke map plot, and is in constant contact with Kylo and Hux. Then by TLJ he’s outright leading the assault himself, so it really feels like he’s throwing everything the FO has to make sure the Resistance is wiped out. After the destruction of Starkiller & Holdo’s ram on Snoke’s fleet, the Battle of Crait is comprised of the crippled remnants of both sides, despite the FO still having the upper hand. TRoS really hammers home that the FO doesn’t have the reach to take control over the galaxy, it even brings up how their resources have been crippled by the destruction of the Starkiller. The ammount of Star Destroyers in Palpatine’s Fleet might look ridiculous when put toghether like that, but you can imagine the Empire had equal or even greater numbers spread out across the galaxy.
Tbh this has always been the way I saw the First Order. People always complain about how overpowered they seem because they have bigger ships, bigger walkers, a bigger Death Star, etc. but if you look at it from a story perspective they really always seemed much smaller than the Empire. In the OT you always got the sense that you were only looking at a fraction of the Empire’s might - the secret Death Star project in ANH & Vader’s personal quest in TESB. But the Empire had control over the entire galaxy, there was always a sense that there were other equally great imperial operations going on somewhere else, officers were surprised that the Emperor would take the time to contact Vader, and outright shocked when he decides to personally oversee the completion of the second Death Star.
Now compare that to the First Order, in TFA the galaxy is under rule of the New Republic so, despite being introduced as this misterious Emperor-like character, there really is no sense that Snoke has much else going on. Moreover, he seems highly invested in the Luke map plot, and is in constant contact with Kylo and Hux. Then by TLJ he’s outright leading the assault himself, so it really feels like he’s throwing everything the FO has to make sure the Resistance is wiped out. After the destruction of Starkiller & Holdo’s ram on Snoke’s fleet, the Battle of Crait is comprised of the crippled remnants of both sides, despite the FO still having the upper hand. TRoS really hammers home that the FO doesn’t have the reach to take control over the galaxy, it even brings up how their resources have been crippled by the destruction of the Starkiller. The ammount of Star Destroyers in Palpatine’s Fleet might look ridiculous when put toghether like that, but you can imagine the Empire had equal or even greater numbers spread out across the galaxy.
Really nicely put.
“It’s like rhymetry. They poem.” - Leorge Gucas
TROS Novelisation: The Faraday Edit, TLJ: Stoic Edition, ROTS: The Faraday Nudge, ROTS Ultracut: Order 66, Kenobi: Faraday Cut, Godzilla Vs Megalon, Godzilla Vs Gigan, Godzilla: Final Wars, The Light Rises, Faraday Jr.'s Star Wars
This is something I constantly go back and forth on. Does the set up in the ST actually work? Or did they fail to execute it properly?
I think the big problem is the imagery. Yes, technology does improve with time, but since the Empire was defeated in ROTJ, it feels strange that one of their remnants has bigger ships than the empire ever created at the height of their power. And the films never explain if the First Order is an official government with multiple systems under their control, or if they randomly raid planets for resources and their bases of operations are capital ships and military outposts. Do they have a capital? A currency?
I think if they were meant to be more like raiders, biding their time and building their army, their resources should’ve been scavenged and upgraded Imperial-era equipment. Something more guerrilla. With the way the First Order actually appears, I think it makes more sense if they were a highly centralized totalitarian state. Like North Korea, where its citizens are poor and mistreated (like the Tico sisters’ home-world) and it devotes most of its resources to the military.
[Even then, though, North Korea’s military technology is not state-of-the art, but the comparison doesn’t have to be 1:1]
But we honestly get no sense that the First Order actually rules anything in TFA, besides Starkiller Base. I think that is the general problem with the First Order. They feel both big and small, and I think they made it that way because they honestly didn’t know what it should be. It feels like they kept it ambiguous in hopes that it could be filled out more in later stories, but that to me is another example of the trilogy’s lack of clear vision.
With the way the First Order is presented, I would say a good route would be to use the opening crawl to establish that the First Order is a small, isolated Imperial remnant. Maybe the last one left. But the remnant and the New Republic are in a frozen conflict. The First Order rules within its own borders, and the New Republic doesn’t want to risk another war so they leave them alone.
But Leia has been motivated to organize a Resistance movement within First Order space. Unaffiliated with the New Republic, but aligned politically. This is basically what we get in the movies, but it isn’t explained that way. We never really get a sense that we’re in First Order territory, or if the First Order actually has any territory. And they probably wanted to keep that ambiguous, because if the FO was a bigger threat, it would make the NR seem foolish for allowing themselves to be so vulnerable. If they are secret, it makes the lack of concern more understandable, but it still makes them seem somewhat foolish since Leia recognized the threat and they didn’t. Also, having them rebuild in secret raises questions about how they were able to upgrade their military force without the NR catching wind of such a thing.
If the First Order have their own functioning nation, then them building new stuff isn’t that hard to explain. But maybe you could somehow imply that they do recycle Imperial tech. Maybe you could have Poe call Snoke’s ship “Palpatine’s Ship” or “the Emperor’s ship” in TLJ. The implication being that maybe his ship is actually the Eclipse, Palpatine’s old flagship. Now we’re not left thinking that the First Order built a larger Star Destroyer than the Galactic Empire ever did. There’s really no way to imply this in the films, but perhaps one could somehow imply that the new Star Destroyers are just stripped down/upgraded Imperial Star Destroyers, rather than brand new ones.
This is definitely a more radical idea, but…
I think it would be interesting to see a version of TFA where the New Republic is never destroyed. Instead, Starkiller Base is just a base (not a bigger, badder, Death Star) and the climax is focused on getting the other half of the map to Luke, and rescuing Rey.
You could take this idea further and have the New Republic never be destroyed in the trilogy. In TLJ, the New Republic can’t intervene because the resistance launched an unprovoked attack on the First Order in their own territory, so they have no jurisdiction. You could even have the New Republic send a transmission to the Resistance on Crait saying they can’t help.
Then, in TROS, you could have the fleet that shows up at the end be the New Republic, who finally can take action now that the First Order is on the verge of launching an attack to take over the galaxy. Obviously there are some cool things with the fleet being just “people”, and I’m not saying one is better than the other. I can just understand what people mean when it feels like they tore down the legacy of Luke, Han and Leia in order to just tell the same story over again. This way, Leia in TFA isn’t starting back where she was in ANH. The fruits of their labor, the New Republic, still exist. But she is just trying to finish what she started by liberating the last corner of the galaxy still ruled by the Empire.
You could potentially do something similar with Han. Again, obviously there are thematic reasons for why Han is back to smuggling in TFA, but I also can understand people who feel like this direction for the character was forced just to have Han be a smuggler again. It might be a stretch, but you could potentially have Han still serving as a general in the New Republic. Perhaps his hauler ship in TFA could be changed to be a New Republic ship. You could also change 3PO’s lines when they reunite, and he can call him “General Solo” and make some reference to the New Republic.
Making new lines for 3PO in general could be pretty useful for this idea.As far as Luke and his legacy goes, that’s a good story for another time.
Anyway, a bunch of random ideas. Regardless of how radical you went, I think that layout for the crawl I mentioned earlier would make the most sense. Sure, you still end up with the same Rebels vs Empire scenario, but now it isn’t at the cost of resetting the galaxy back to ANH.
The basic problem is that TFA and TLJ had different ideas of what The First Order was.
TFA intended to it set up as a military junta. Leia and her rebel band were supposed to be the only ones in the government taking these space-jungle fanatics seriously. This semi worked; JJ screwed up by not making it clear that Starkiller was designed to take out the Republic so the Order could take over. If the FO had been much more fanatical about The Sith religion, that would’ve made it clearer they were a fringe cult, but still very dangerous. Again, JJ didn’t put ENOUGH details in, which is his common failing. JJ tried to rectify this in Rise, but by then it was far too late.
TLJ did not seem to build off that as much, and indeed Rian seemed to toss any of JJ’s unused ideas away. On screen, the Order in TLJ is pretty much the same as the Empire. A big army chasing the rebels. Are they in charge of the government? Are they all that one fleet chasing the last 3 rebel ships? Is Snoke the new leader of the galactic government? Did it matter that Starkiller was destroyed? Did Holdo just nuke the entire fleet? Does any of that even matter?
Obviously they were afraid of the vocal backlash the prequels got for too many political scenes…but to go from “too many” to “none other than 1 line” was a poor move by all parties.
I agree with the complaints around TFA failing to properly explain the major factions, and that they could’ve done more interesting things with the First Order. I wasn’t saying the criticism about the FO seeming overpowered weren’t valid, but I think that’s just a byproduct of the overall direction in the ST of making everything bigger and flashier, it’s the same reason Poe pulls off insane X-wing stunts and Rey does incredible feats with the Force (that have also been labeled “overpowered”). The First Order were supposed to be the big new baddies so to fit this direction they decided to make them look bigger and badder. That paired with the plot parallels drawn to the OT I think is what made people draw the wrong conclusion that the FO was the “Empire 2.0”.
They could’ve done a better job explaining things, but all I’m saying is, based on what we actually see and hear in the movies, if you look past their big ships and walkers, there really is no indication the FO has anywhere near the power and reach of the Empire, but rather plenty that indicates the opposite.
I definitely agree with that assessment. It’s like they have a very small fleet, but they invested a lot into it. Arguably it could be seen as a quality over quantity mentality, which the Empire arguably did the opposite with their disposable TIE fighters and such.
If only there was a line where their limitations were brought up. Too bad there weren’t any scenes reminiscent to the Imperial meeting in ANH.
Maybe we could replace Kylo’s line about clone troopers in TFA with something that could indicate there indication. Thanks to his voice modulator, redubbing him is fairly simple. I just can’t think of any fitting line right now and I am way too busy with my exams at the moment to give it a lot of thought.
“Vader! Hologram, now!”
I just posted something about this in my TLJ: Legendary thread to hopefully generate a few workable ideas toward this effect, in case anyone wants to pursue it there.