Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 144

OutboundFlight said:

RogueLeader said:

Maybe if they didn’t waste so much time reintroducing Palpatine they wouldn’t have needed two parts!

??? They don’t spend any time introducing him. They instantly bring him into the plot, don’t give any time for the characters to reflect on his arrival, and expect you to watch a fortnite clip to understand.

I don’t think RL literally means that they wasted time on his reintroduction. Just that the fact that he was reintroduced meant they wasted a lot of time on him. I mean, honestly the whole plot is based on the fact that he is back. Instead of just following up and concluding what they set up in the last film(s), they decided to graft on a whole additional story.

And, personally, I think the complaints of the Fortnite clip are silly. I listened to it, it doesn’t tell you anything. More likely than not it was either a deleted moment that got cut out because is was unnecessary, or it was created separate from the film as purely a piece of marketing.

I seem to be in the minority in liking this film. I felt that it had a lot to add to the previous movies and didn’t detract from any of them. So many of the critic reviews on RT were full of this film rewriting and retconning TLJ and I didn’t find a single instance of that.

This movie was very much an adventure. In fact the whole saga is very much a series of adventures. Star Wars is not heavy on themes, except in the end Good wins over Evil. But I felt that the theme for this film was the evil in your family does not define you. Kylo spent 2 1/2 films focused on Darth Vader over his parents or his other ancestors. Palpatine tried to use that family link to pull in Rey. But now, knowing the truth about her parents (the full truth that they went into hiding and obscurity to protect her), she drew on that. In the end she honored their abandonment of the Palpatine name by adopting Skywalker, the family name of her two masters. I think that the family part is echoed by family in other sub-plots in the film. Lando’s was apparently cut, but hints of it remain (the timing for the leaked version isn’t compatible with Rey’s background). Even Poe’s story connect with his past (what he did and who he knew and that even his own personal past as a spice runner didn’t define him as Finn’s background as a stormtrooper didn’t define him and Rey’s as a scavenger didn’t define her). So I think there are plenty of themes beyond the typical good vs. evil that Star Wars focus’s on to give the movie meat. The trilogy has seemed to stick to that idea that you are not stuck with what you used to do and you can change your destiny. All three films have touched on that in different ways.

yotsuya said:

I seem to be in the minority in liking this film.

Except for everyone else who’s said they like the film.

Or do you mean unironically?

OutboundFlight said:

Snoke’s death was cool and shocking in TLJ, but I think we can all agree it had some serious consequences on the ST as a whole.

Well certainly. The problem is there are some of us who think that it was great because it meant they’d be forced to do something different, and those who think it was bad because they were forced to bring back Palpatine so they could do something the same.

I saw it again this evening, probably my last viewing before it’s on Blu-ray/streaming. I’ve made peace with it. It’s never going to be my favorite, but I’m willing to stop comparing it unfavorably to TLJ and start comparing it favorably to all the lunatic EU novels I read in the 90s. It’s big and convoluted and kind of dumb and a lot of fun.

With regard to pacing, I think the Pasana and Kijimi stuff could probably be condensed into one segment, which would free up 15 minutes or so that could be better spent restoring the Lando’s kidnapped child subplot and/or showing Rose’s study of the old Star Destroyer plans actually leading to some insight that helps in the battle. Or going into any amount of detail about how the Emperor came back. Or setting up the Force dyad, like, at all. This movie is obsessed with explaining five or six different McGuffins, but it’s completely disinterested in providing any exposition on the (very weird) stuff the story actually hinges on.

I had my third viewing a few days ago, and I’ve definitely made peace with it too. It’s not a bad film, but it’s got some really disappointing missed opportunities, even within the framework they chose.

To that end, what’s mostly been nagging me since my last viewing are some extremely easy minor things they could have changed that would have made the film better What mostly bothered me initially was Rey, but I’m real frustrated with the other characters as well…

• Want to focus on the trio for the main adventure? Fine. Want Rose to anchor the Leia scenes? Fine. But you can still do this and have some semblance of respect for the character. Put her on the Falcon in the opening mission, and have her fixing it instead of random silly alien. Give her more to do in the final battle. Put her on one of the damn horses! Have her be the one that says Finn had a good teacher. Keep some continuity, dammit.
• Along those lines, don’t forget ‘save what you love’! Finn learned an important lesson from Rose in TLJ. Have him convince Jannah and co. to join the fight rather than stay alone on the moon. At the end, instead of just blowing up the Star Destroyer bridge, have Finn and Jannah’s crew storm the bridge and initiate self destruct on the Destroyer. But instead of letting everyone die, they convince as many stormtroopers as they can to put down their weapons and escape.
• The film sets up an interesting conflict, where the trio doesn’t really listen to each other and tell each other things, and ultimately this causes problems. Emphasize that Poe isn’t just cocky like usual, he’s bossy. He’s having a hard time with the ‘leader’ position, and realizes that the solution is to do it together (a payoff in the film without the proper set up). Have Finn explain to Poe what he was going to tell Rey - because he realizes the Force affects everyone, not just people like him, Rey, and Leia. At the end, when Finn needs to be saved, have Poe willingly delegate that job to Lando, rather than being told the Falcon is faster. He’s a leader now, he should be over trying to be the hero! We should actually see him lead!
• To that end, the space battle is forgettable. An easy solution is to add just one show-stopping set piece like the superstructure scene from Jedi - my suggestion, have the Falcon coming to save Finn be a daring task where they have to dodge the falling destroyers.
• Okay, one thing about Rey. The power to heal with the force should be something that Rey wasn’t taught, she just intuitively knows it. We find out this is the power of the force dyad, the power to heal, to save, to cheat death. This is why Palpatine is restored by them. At the end, Ben doesn’t die, and instead he departs to go around the galaxy ‘healing’ the wounds he helped to create, so to speak.

It’s stuff like this that make me really wish they had more time to make the film and iron out all the wrinkles.

Watched it for a second time last evening, and it didn’t improve for me on a second viewing. For me it is without a doubt the most messy, convoluted, plot hole filled movie in the franchise. I liked the creepy opening, and the sense of adventure, and camaraderie of the first half of the film, but when Palpatine and his fleet were defeated, and it was clear many questions and plot holes would just be glossed over in favour of checking boxes, and rehashing Star Wars tropes, it felt very cynical, unearned, and hollow to me. I felt very little of the exhilaration I felt during the space battle of RO, or the tension I felt during the last episode of The Mandalorian. The Force is just a deux ex machina now, that, unlike in the past, can now be used to locate objects, and regular people aboard starships, transfer objects across the galaxy, heal the injured, bring back the dead (guess saving people from death is no longer a dark side legend, and an unhealthy form of attachment), and cause a Force overdose (though technically introduced in TLJ) for maximum dramatic effect, whenever the plot needs it. The bad guy, despite having very limited screen time, changes his motivations multiple times, first he wants to kill our protagonist, next he wants to possess the protagonist, then finally rejuvinate himself using the heroes’ life force (which conveniently doesn’t kill them, unlike later when the film needs a dramatic moment). By the way, did anyone notice the stupidity of the Sith Wayfinder? Why would you create not one, but two maps to a highly secret location, and then let anybody be able to use it, once they get their hands on it, no password required? The ST has made me stop caring about Star Wars films for the most part. I went into TROS pretty apathetic, and walked out of it with zero interest to ever see, or discuss these characters again. I really hope some major changes are forthcoming behind the scenes, because as far as I’m concerned the people at LFM, and Disney really dropped the ball, bringing interest for Star Wars movies in general to an all time low.

joefavs said:

With regard to pacing, I think the Pasana and Kijimi stuff could probably be condensed into one segment, which would free up 15 minutes or so that could be better spent restoring the Lando’s kidnapped child subplot and/or showing Rose’s study of the old Star Destroyer plans actually leading to some insight that helps in the battle. Or going into any amount of detail about how the Emperor came back. Or setting up the Force dyad, like, at all.

Make that Pasana and Endor and ditch the Kijimi stuff and Kylo’s command ship completely. Both the Pasana and Endor segments start with the gang hunting for an item and end with a Kylo confrontation. For a film that seems to have a lot to say it sure wastes a lot of time on dull repetition.

oojason said:

‘Star Wars Co-Writer Chris Terrio Sets Record Straight on Perceived ‘Last Jedi’ Jabs’:-

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-writer-sets-record-straight-perceived-last-jedi-jabs-1265168

^ The title of the article doesn’t really reflect the many topics that the TROS co-writer covers from in and about the film.

Well worth a read - regardless of whether you enjoyed the film - or not.

(apologies if already posted)
 

That was eye opening and insightful. Thanks for sharing.

Good article about the issues with the creative process that got us here.

“Conspiracy theories abound regarding this film, but the truth is probably dumber and more well-meaning than angry fans love to hate to believe.”

https://birthmoviesdeath.com/2019/12/31/decoding-the-rise-of-skywalkers-difficult-creative-process

I’m sure they all did their jobs. But there competency as storytellers is laughable in many instances. It’s not really a conspiracy to say that they rushed this out without a good plan. It’s certainly not the best possible outcome if you genuinely sit down and plot out where the unresolved threads and arcs could go.

joefavs said:

Good article about the issues with the creative process that got us here.

“Conspiracy theories abound regarding this film, but the truth is probably dumber and more well-meaning than angry fans love to hate to believe.”

https://birthmoviesdeath.com/2019/12/31/decoding-the-rise-of-skywalkers-difficult-creative-process

Different writers have different ways of working. Some like to plow through with no prep and see where it takes them. Some like to plan out every stages. Some like to write scenes and then piece them together. All are valid avenues as writers of each type have produced New York Time bestsellers and box office hits. So you can’t say that the method of writing led to the problems. That is a nonsense argument. What is an argument is that their screenplay was too long and they filmed way more than they needed and then they cut it down in the editing room. That is a valid complaint and one that Abrams seems especially guilty of.

Making movies is not the same as writing. Writing gives you great leeway to redo anything to make corrections. Once you shoot a movie, your options for fixing things become limited. A good director and writer will make sure they have the movie streamlined and polished BEFORE they shoot it so that what ends up on the cutting room floor is minimal. This is how Lucas, Kasdan, and Marquand did the OT. Their reshoots were minimal and necessary. Abrams likes to fix his films with reshoots and in the editing room and it shows (TFA had the same issues). Sometimes that makes fatal issues and sometimes they can be smoothed over. I think for most of TROS that it is seemless.

I think for the Leia scenes a few things are off. But none of that affected the feel of the film for me. It didn’t affect the flow of the story. Frankly, I’d rather have Leia a part of the story imperfectly than not at all. I felt her part to the overall plot was crucial and that was good writing. While the scenes individually were not always perfect, her presence was. The way her part of the story concluded was beautiful and well done. A fitting exit for a marvelous actress and iconic character.

As far as his typical method of fixing the movie in the editing room, I think Abrams did his best job ever on this one. The holes in TFA were glaring to me on the first viewing and have bugged me ever since. I found no such glaring holes in this film. And if we are going to get nitpicky about plot holes, there are a few in our beloved OT that we tend to ignore most of the time and I don’t think we need to hold the ST to a higher standard. I found the story to flow in a way that I have yet to notice any serious plot holes. In my experience with movies there are two types of issues. Ones I notice the first time and can never get around and others that it takes a while to noticed that never really bother me. TROS and TLJ have none of the first type while TFA and AOTC both have them (probably why I rank them at the bottom of all the films).

Mocata said:

I’m sure they all did their jobs. But there competency as storytellers is laughable in many instances. It’s not really a conspiracy to say that they rushed this out without a good plan. It’s certainly not the best possible outcome if you genuinely sit down and plot out where the unresolved threads and arcs could go.

Oh, sure, I certainly don’t mean to argue otherwise. I just thought the article did a good job of addressing the idea that the TROS team deliberately set out to undermine TLJ in response to all the Fandom Menace horse shit (a theory that I haven’t seen too much of here, to be fair, but that’s all over Twitter)

joefavs said:

Good article about the issues with the creative process that got us here.

“Conspiracy theories abound regarding this film, but the truth is probably dumber and more well-meaning than angry fans love to hate to believe.”

https://birthmoviesdeath.com/2019/12/31/decoding-the-rise-of-skywalkers-difficult-creative-process

It’s a good article that tries to look at what went wrong rationally, and I agree with many of the conclusions. But I think I probably fundamentally disagree with the idea that reverse engineering a story will always end in disaster. Maybe here it did, but when it comes to endings, I think it can be very important to work backwards. Some of the things they did - like mapping out unresolved questions from the previous films - you can easily see scenarios in which these things end up working.

Ultimately I think the basic fact of the matter is that they started from a place where they were trying to accomplish too much within one movie and they didn’t have enough time to whittle it down to a more manageable length. I fully believe most of the post production changes were things that were done to simplify the narrative (that ironically might have complicated it in other ways).

I think the question regarding the effectiveness of the Leia scenes won’t really be answered for another 10-15 years, where a whole new generation who weren’t even around when Carrie was alive can experience these movies without the knowledge of Carrie’s passing during the making of this new trilogy. We’re lifelong fans who consume whatever Star Wars news we come across. How will it be for a first time viewer, or a brand new fan?

RogueLeader said:

I think the question regarding the effectiveness of the Leia scenes won’t really be answered for another 10-15 years, where a whole new generation who weren’t even around when Carrie was alive can experience these movies without the knowledge of Carrie’s passing during the making of this new trilogy. We’re lifelong fans who consume whatever Star Wars news we come across. How will it be for a first time viewer, or a brand new fan?

Personally I just think the main reason for the critique is it’s an easy thing to latch on to, and you can extrapolate all sorts of bad storytelling philosophies that come from the decision, whether the decision itself has anything to do with the bad storytelling of the film. I think the truth of the matter is more nuanced. Some scenes work, some don’t. I think there’s a world where the film as a whole is better, and people give the Leia moments a pass. It’s a little telling that no one complained about the idea before they saw the film.

At the end of the day, I always come back to this - her role in the film is extremely minimal, and has nearly no effect on the plot or any of the film’s worst decisions.

Apparently the final shot is slapped together from an earlier scene

https://twitter.com/im_organa/status/1211461346040172545

Mocata said:

Apparently the final shot is slapped together from an earlier scene

https://twitter.com/im_organa/status/1211461346040172545

First of all, “slapped together” makes it sound like doing so would be lazy and/or that the final effect is unconvincing, which is silly, and second, it wasn’t: https://comicbook.com/starwars/2019/12/31/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-final-shot-rey-desert-tatooine-pasaana/