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Rogue One * Spoilers * Thread — Page 167

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Original ‘Rogue One’ Script Kept Death Star a Mystery, and More Reveals from Writer Chris Weitz

https://www.indiewire.com/2019/03/rogue-one-death-star-chris-weitz-script-changes-1202051868/

Rogue One is redundant. Just play the first mission of DARK FORCES.
The hallmark of a corrupt leader: Being surrounded by yes men.
‘The best visual effects in the world will not compensate for a story told badly.’ - V.E.S.
‘Star Wars is a buffet, enjoy the stuff you want, and leave the rest.’ - SilverWook

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I’m probably gonna get slapped here, but I despise this film. Talk about Special editions - this film is ‘Han Shot First’ on steroids. Placing the Tantive at the battle itself and having Vader - who had just seen the rebels passing the plans through a doorway - suddenly get his facts wrong (“several transmissions were beamed to this ship…”), followed by an interrogation with Leia that doesn’t remotely reflect what Vader has supposedly just witnessed (perhaps Disney could do a Lucas and replace Vader’s lines with “Princess, I just saw you at the battle receiving the plans firsthand for Sith’s sake!”)…and all so we can see Vader exhibit a particular badassery that he fails to wield ten minutes later in 1977?!?

But the worst crime (no, it isn’t the appearance and repeated dialogue of the cantina aliens from ANH) is the Death Star exhaust port fiasco. The whole point of the exercise was that the shot was basically impossible. It was a desperate plan. That’s why every rebel in the briefing room was shifting nervously in their seats. That’s why Wedge Mk 1 said “that’s impossible, even for a computer”. That’s why the first attempt failed despite said computer. That’s why General Dodonna didn’t say “good news guys, a weakness was planted in the station for our benefit!”. That’s why it took Luke trusting in the Force to make this seemingly impossible shot work. If a dude was really going to plant a weakness in the DS, would he make it so effing difficult that only a budding space wizard could pull it off?

The Death Star wasn’t blown up because of insider sabotage. It was destroyed because Imperial hubris failed to account for rebel ingenuity and tenacity (hence the argument between Taggi and Motti in ANH), not to mention the wild card that was Luke Skywalker. Why mess with this?

Not to state the obvious on a site dedicated to this one truth but, as we’ve been stridently pointing out to Lucas for decades now, Star Wars '77 was fine as it was.

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I agree. As action fan service shlock it’s fine, but as a story is leaves a LOT to be desired.

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Why flog a dead Taun Taun at this point?

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Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

Why flog a dead Taun Taun at this point?

Is that directed at me Silver? If so, I haven’t gone through the whole thread so I’m not deliberately fanning old flames. I just saw the topic at the top of the pile and felt it was time to scratch this particular itch of mine (I haven’t commented on RO on this or any site ever).

What’s interesting to me is that RO gets such a great rap on a site dedicated to preserving the unaltered OT. I’m not saying that’s objectively wrong, I’m just amazed that other fans don’t see this as basically a defacto Special Edition change. There’s a wonderful purity to the original film which the Special Editions obviously violated. I just feel RO is an extension of that.

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Speaking for myself and not for the other members of this site, Rogue One is easily my least favorite of the four Star Wars films produced thus far under Disney.

I think you’re on to something with the “special edition” observation. Rogue One feels like you’re getting a glimpse into George’s “vision” of the Star Wars universe circa 1975.

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 (Edited)

Shopping Maul said:

I’m probably gonna get slapped here, but I despise this film. Talk about Special editions - this film is ‘Han Shot First’ on steroids. Placing the Tantive at the battle itself and having Vader - who had just seen the rebels passing the plans through a doorway - suddenly get his facts wrong (“several transmissions were beamed to this ship…”), followed by an interrogation with Leia that doesn’t remotely reflect what Vader has supposedly just witnessed (perhaps Disney could do a Lucas and replace Vader’s lines with “Princess, I just saw you at the battle receiving the plans firsthand for Sith’s sake!”)…and all so we can see Vader exhibit a particular badassery that he fails to wield ten minutes later in 1977?!?

But the worst crime (no, it isn’t the appearance and repeated dialogue of the cantina aliens from ANH) is the Death Star exhaust port fiasco. The whole point of the exercise was that the shot was basically impossible. It was a desperate plan. That’s why every rebel in the briefing room was shifting nervously in their seats. That’s why Wedge Mk 1 said “that’s impossible, even for a computer”. That’s why the first attempt failed despite said computer. That’s why General Dodonna didn’t say “good news guys, a weakness was planted in the station for our benefit!”. That’s why it took Luke trusting in the Force to make this seemingly impossible shot work. If a dude was really going to plant a weakness in the DS, would he make it so effing difficult that only a budding space wizard could pull it off?

The Death Star wasn’t blown up because of insider sabotage. It was destroyed because Imperial hubris failed to account for rebel ingenuity and tenacity (hence the argument between Taggi and Motti in ANH), not to mention the wild card that was Luke Skywalker. Why mess with this?

Not to state the obvious on a site dedicated to this one truth but, as we’ve been stridently pointing out to Lucas for decades now, Star Wars '77 was fine as it was.

I don’t disagree with your points one iota, but I still don’t hate or dislike the film. I view it as I view pretty much any other fanfilm with effort put into it; I appreciate its aesthetics/technical achievements though the characterization/writing falls short.

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 (Edited)

Shopping Maul said:

SilverWook said:

Why flog a dead Taun Taun at this point?

Is that directed at me Silver? If so, I haven’t gone through the whole thread so I’m not deliberately fanning old flames. I just saw the topic at the top of the pile and felt it was time to scratch this particular itch of mine (I haven’t commented on RO on this or any site ever).

What’s interesting to me is that RO gets such a great rap on a site dedicated to preserving the unaltered OT. I’m not saying that’s objectively wrong, I’m just amazed that other fans don’t see this as basically a defacto Special Edition change. There’s a wonderful purity to the original film which the Special Editions obviously violated. I just feel RO is an extension of that.

No worries! Even I cringed a bit at Dr. He Doesn’t Like You and Walrusman showing up.

I think the affection many hold for the film is it’s in the OT timeframe and any more time spent in that particular era is welcome. I saw it twice on in 70mm IMAX and don’t regret it.

I’m sure there’s a fanedit that addresses the issues you and others have. Unlike the SE changes, RO doesn’t affect my enjoying the original film any more than the prequels do.

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Where were you in '77?

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 (Edited)

Shopping Maul said:

Not to state the obvious on a site dedicated to this one truth but, as we’ve been stridently pointing out to Lucas for decades now, Star Wars '77 was fine as it was.

Shopping Maul said:

What’s interesting to me is that RO gets such a great rap on a site dedicated to preserving the unaltered OT.

Shopping Maul said:

I’m just amazed that other fans don’t see this as basically a defacto Special Edition change.

Just a couple of points for clarity…

For someone who has been on this site for over 5 years… you haven’t noticed that your fellow members on here may also like or enjoy Star Wars content other than the Original Trilogy too? That there are many members with positive views and respect or appreciation for many of the differing Star Wars releases?

And that having a positive opinion of the non-OT releases on here is perfectly okay.

You can indeed prefer to watch the Prequel Trilogy, or Holiday Special, or one of the animated tv series, or read the EU books etc over the Original Trilogy (and also talk about them on here)… yet still also want the OOT released.

And you certainly don’t have to despise other non-OT content, find certain scenes in them the worst crime, or be just amazed that others here see things differently than you do.
 

A little patience goes a long way on this old-school Rebel base. If you are having issues finding what you are looking for, these will be of some help…

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… and take your time to look around this site before posting - to get a feel for this place. Don’t just lazily make yet another thread asking for projects.

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oojason said:

Shopping Maul said:

Not to state the obvious on a site dedicated to this one truth but, as we’ve been stridently pointing out to Lucas for decades now, Star Wars '77 was fine as it was.

Shopping Maul said:

What’s interesting to me is that RO gets such a great rap on a site dedicated to preserving the unaltered OT.

Shopping Maul said:

I’m just amazed that other fans don’t see this as basically a defacto Special Edition change.

Just a couple of points for clarity…

For someone who has been on this site for over 5 years… you haven’t noticed that your fellow members on here may also like or enjoy Star Wars content other than the Original Trilogy too? That there are many members with positive views and respect or appreciation for many of the differing Star Wars releases?

And that having a positive opinion of the non-OT releases on here is perfectly okay.

You can indeed prefer to watch the Prequel Trilogy, or Holiday Special, or one of the animated tv series, or read the EU books etc over the Original Trilogy (and also talk about them on here)… yet still also want the OOT released.

And you certainly don’t have to despise other non-OT content, find certain scenes in them the worst crime, or be just amazed that others here see things differently than you do.
 

I think you’ve misread my tone here - but I probably haven’t expressed myself very well! I’m not saying my take on RO is the ‘right’ one, or that to enjoy RO is to betray the manifesto of this site. Like I said to Silverwook, I just saw the subject at the top of the pile and felt compelled to give my two cents worth after all this time. I was posting from the perspective of being among friends in an ‘around the water cooler’ type way rather than seeking to put anyone off side. I genuinely apologise if I came off that way.

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Not sure manifesto is the right word. That conjures up images of some crazed individual with a portable VHS player watching the OOT in a small cabin deep in the woods. 😛

In trying to be an ever alert mod, I sometimes see a threadcrap where one isn’t intended. If you had begun with I’m know I’m really late to the party on this, we all would have got your drift sooner, but no harm no foul. 😃

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Where were you in '77?

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Fang Zei said:

Speaking for myself and not for the other members of this site, Rogue One is easily my least favorite of the four Star Wars films produced thus far under Disney.

I think you’re on to something with the “special edition” observation. Rogue One feels like you’re getting a glimpse into George’s “vision” of the Star Wars universe circa 1975.

But we didn’t get any mention of midichlorians. 😉

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Where were you in '77?

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 (Edited)

Shopping Maul said:

The Death Star wasn’t blown up because of insider sabotage.

Indeed. This is what I hate the most about R1. It’s as stupid as the midichlorians stuff. The death star is a dragon, with a weakness that people oversaw (“we have analysed their strategy… there might be a danger”). Not just a random weapon with a defect placed within on purpose.

In R1, as a Prequel, I can excuse and understand a few inconsistencies with the OT. But this “implemented sabotage” is inexcusable for me. It steals away something of the soul of ANH. I wish R1 had been what it was supposed to be: a heist movie with a death wish commando getting the plans, not a father-daugther relationship story. Basically more or less the way Maple reedited the movie as “The battle of Scarif” 😃

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MalàStrana said:

Shopping Maul said:

The Death Star wasn’t blown up because of insider sabotage.

Indeed. This is what I hate the most about R1. It’s as stupid as the midichlorians stuff. The death star is a dragon, with a weakness that people oversaw (“we have analysed their strategy… there might be a danger”). Not just a random weapon with a defect placed within on purpose.

In R1, as a Prequel, I can excuse and understand a few inconsistencies with the OT. But this “implemented sabotage” is inexcusable for me. It steals away something of the soul of ANH. I wish R1 had been what it was supposed to be: a heist movie with a death wish commando getting the plans, not a father-dauther relationship story. Basically more or less the way Maple reedited the movie as “The battle of Scarif” 😃

0/10 😉

Bast - “We’ve analyzed their attack, sir, and there is a danger… Should I have your ship standing by?”

Tarkin - “Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances!”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRY0cs26Zvo
 

A little patience goes a long way on this old-school Rebel base. If you are having issues finding what you are looking for, these will be of some help…

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A Project Index for Star Wars Preservations (Harmy’s Despecialized & 4K77/80/83 etc) : A Project Index for Star Wars Fan Edits (adywan & Hal 9000 etc)

… and take your time to look around this site before posting - to get a feel for this place. Don’t just lazily make yet another thread asking for projects.

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oojason said:

Bast - “We’ve analyzed their attack, sir, and there is a danger… Should I have your ship standing by?”

Tarkin - “Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances!”

Yeah I knew I should have checked the dialogues 😄

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“We’ve analysed their attack sir, and there is a danger” is consistent with the unpredictability and audaciousness of the Rebels’ hastily conceived plan. Otherwise the dialogue would/should be “Governor Tarkin, we’ve been betrayed! A design flaw was deliberately planted in the station and we must evacuate immediately!”…

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 (Edited)

Shopping Maul said:

“We’ve analysed their attack sir, and there is a danger” is consistent with the unpredictability and audaciousness of the Rebels’ hastily conceived plan. Otherwise the dialogue would/should be “Governor Tarkin, we’ve been betrayed! A design flaw was deliberately planted in the station and we must evacuate immediately!”…

Or in the midst of a battle… Bast (and his team) analyzing what the Rebels are trying to accomplish with their small fighter attack… immediately reports the newly found perceived danger to his superior. Likely further analysis on the how, the why, and by whom - with any likelihood of determining intentional sabotage in the design of the Death Star systems is probably ongoing (or hasn’t yet finished formulating the information). Seems logical enough.

There is an arrogance, complacency, supremacy or overconfidence on display from the Imperials through the OT, afterall.
 

A little patience goes a long way on this old-school Rebel base. If you are having issues finding what you are looking for, these will be of some help…

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How do I do this?’ on the OriginalTrilogy.com; some info & answers + FAQs - includes info on how to search for projects and threads on the OT•com

A Project Index for Star Wars Preservations (Harmy’s Despecialized & 4K77/80/83 etc) : A Project Index for Star Wars Fan Edits (adywan & Hal 9000 etc)

… and take your time to look around this site before posting - to get a feel for this place. Don’t just lazily make yet another thread asking for projects.

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The issue is not about being logical or not, the real trick is: this piece of information of the DS being sabotaged by its own engineer is a rationalization of something magical/Force related in ANH, and it was totally unecessary. That’s why I compare that to the midichlorians: going for magic to something… logical, mathematical, biological, rational… it goes 100% against the spirit of the OT and particularly of ANH.

The fact dialogues in ANH have now a weird inconsistency with R1 ret-con is another issue, but not the worst.

(and at least PT inconsistencies are set some 20 years before ANH, not 5 minutes prior to it 😕)

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MalàStrana said:

The issue is not about being logical or not, the real trick is: this piece of information of the DS being sabotaged by its own engineer is a rationalization of something magical/Force related in ANH, and it was totally unecessary. That’s why I compare that to the midichlorians: going for magic to something… logical, mathematical, biological, rational… it goes 100% against the spirit of the OT and particularly of ANH.

The fact dialogues in ANH have now a weird inconsistency with R1 ret-con is another issue, but not the worst.

(and at least PT inconsistencies are set some 20 years before ANH, not 5 minutes prior to it 😕)

Agreed. Perhaps Han’s line could be retconned to say “great shot kid, but someone clearly set you up for it” followed by Obi Wan’s voiceover saying “remember…the Force is just a factor…among many…”.

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MalàStrana said:

The issue is not about being logical or not, the real trick is: this piece of information of the DS being sabotaged by its own engineer is a rationalization of something magical/Force related in ANH, and it was totally unecessary. That’s why I compare that to the midichlorians: going for magic to something… logical, mathematical, biological, rational… it goes 100% against the spirit of the OT and particularly of ANH.

The fact dialogues in ANH have now a weird inconsistency with R1 ret-con is another issue, but not the worst.

(and at least PT inconsistencies are set some 20 years before ANH, not 5 minutes prior to it 😕)

Isn’t it Rogue One that is inconsistent with ANH, not the other way around?

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Where were you in '77?

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Indeed but someday people will discover the movies in the chronological order; this is what I take in perspective. When you wath R1/ANH back to back, you see the inconsistencies in that order.

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MalàStrana said:

The issue is not about being logical or not, the real trick is: this piece of information of the DS being sabotaged by its own engineer is a rationalization of something magical/Force related in ANH, and it was totally unecessary. That’s why I compare that to the midichlorians: going for magic to something… logical, mathematical, biological, rational… it goes 100% against the spirit of the OT and particularly of ANH.

When I get some more time I intend to come back and address Shopping’s main post but for now I’ll just address this.

Nothing in Rogue One contradicts Luke’s achievement in SW.

The struggle in Star Wars is trying to land a direct hit down the thermal exhaust port to set off a chain reaction. Something that all the other pilots proclaim is next to impossible.

That weakness in the design whether it was intentional or not has no bearing on the inherit difficulty of exploiting it.

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Tobar said:

MalàStrana said:

The issue is not about being logical or not, the real trick is: this piece of information of the DS being sabotaged by its own engineer is a rationalization of something magical/Force related in ANH, and it was totally unecessary. That’s why I compare that to the midichlorians: going for magic to something… logical, mathematical, biological, rational… it goes 100% against the spirit of the OT and particularly of ANH.

When I get some more time I intend to come back and address Shopping’s main post but for now I’ll just address this.

Nothing in Rogue One contradicts Luke’s achievement in SW.

The struggle in Star Wars is trying to land a direct hit down the thermal exhaust port to set off a chain reaction. Something that all the other pilots proclaim is next to impossible.

That weakness in the design whether it was intentional or not has no bearing on the inherit difficulty of exploiting it.

Thank you.

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And it’s not like Galen could put in a flaw that’s easy to find and use.

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Where were you in '77?