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Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 156

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yotsuya said:

Ah… I finally found something with meat to it. Rather than just recollections, this article did research and pulled up actual fan reactions from TESB in 1980. Sure, today it is the gold standard of Star Wars for many, but what did people think when it was the dark sequel to an insanely popular movie. Well, fan letters published in Starlog reveal a lot of that.

http://www.acriticalhit.com/fans-react-empire-strikes-back-1980/

Reading this I can imagagine if modern social media had existed back then. I still remember my reaction. For the longest time TESB was the movie to watch between the amazing Star Wars and the incredible ROTJ. It was the Star TRek III to II and IV - the middle of a great story. Eventually I came around. But I see that same genius in TLJ. The characters are put through the ringer and come out the other side wiser for the experience. They handed TLJ to a good character writer who took where they started in TFA and carried on the story. It was written before we ever saw TFA. Before fans built up expectations. Lucas always waited until after one film came out to write the next, but the have been on a faster schedule and so TLJ was written when TFA was still in production and a few things about TFA were changed. And the more I look at the presented issues, the more I realize that all the big issues are not with TLJ, but with the setup in TFA that TLJ delivers on what was promised. Han gave us the concise narrative of Luke in TFA and TLJ didn’t deviate at all. This trilogy is driven by the fall of Ben Solo and the rise of Kylo Ren. Luke in exile, Leia and Han at odds and back to their old roles, everything was setup by Abrams in TFA.

When you think about May 1980, fans didn’t know what to expect. The had the novel and movie of Star Wars (with the published script to keep the movie fresh in lieu of home video). But in 1979, the got three new Star Wars novels as well as the Marvel comic that kept the story going. What came out in May 1980 was nothing like any of those. Irvin Kershner directed his typical people driven story with a script by the legendary Leigh Bracket with changes by Lawrence Kasdan and the original story by George Lucas. It took he wave of success that Star Wars ended with and dumped the characters into turmoil that didn’t end with the end credits. Many didn’t like the direction. Many didn’t believe that Vader was really Luke’s father. And who was this other Yoda spoke of? It was not the film people expected and they griped about it. There really wasn’t a platform for that voice to drown out the box office results. But it was there. And now we have the ST continuing the story and TLJ is the middle chapter and took a similar character based approach and also ended on a dark note. Though this time a beloved character wasn’t just in carbonite, he was dead. Well, as dead as a Jedi gets in Star Wars since he is expected to be back in the next film. And there were more characters to follow (TLJ has three stories instead of two). But the parallel in reaction is fascinating. And we have one of our own who never took to TESB, at least from what I hear. Mike Verta is a fan of Star Wars - as in the 1977 film only. I’m sure he isn’t alone. But most of us who watched the films when they came out have had our opinions change over time and I’m sure that will happen to TLJ as well. I personally love it and wouldn’t change anything. I don’t expect everyone to share that opinion, but saying TLJ ruined the saga, that is subverted expectations, that it threw out Abrams mystery boxes, etc. is just the initial reaction. Wait for IX to come out. Absorb it. Watch the ST in its complete form and see how TLJ fits and then give us a more reasoned opinion. I bet some will change their mind as many of us did about TESB in the years since it came out.

Really enjoying reading the linked article - nice one, yotsuya.

Kind of intriguing to some parallels two-thirds into this trilogy in the context of comparing it to two-thirds through the OT…

You make some salient points re this Sequel Trilogy not yet being finished - it hasn’t yet been absorbed and thought over, reevaluated - the time taken to go over it’s form as a whole as we have done with the previous trilogies… it’ll possibly be even quite some time after the release of IX that many of us will look at the films that made up this particular trilogy in such a way.

Bring on IX 😃
 

Will be certainly interesting to come back to this thread in a couple of years or so. Of course, this trilogy - and IX - has the added weight of likely being the final chapter (for some time, anyway) of the main Star Wars saga too…
 

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Star Wars is as great as it ever was. Some movies are better than others but the franchise and its fans are all doing well. The internet has given everyone a voice and most times the unhappy ones have the most to say, even if they are a minority, just as I was during the prequels.

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For what it’s worth, my mother, grandmother, and uncle all told me separately that they felt the exact same way coming out of TLJ that they did coming out of ESB (that is, they hated it), and they hope that IX will make them like TLJ the way ROTJ made them like ESB.

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I think the displeasure with TLJ goes beyond people not liking it because it’s the “dark middle chapter”. I’m sure audiences expected it to be just that. For all of the things that The Last Jedi does brilliantly (and there are several), the sad truth is that it’s not written half as well as Empire.

Empire’s script and story are simple and tight, with snappy dialogue that doesn’t feel forced and as few characters as are necessary to drive the story. The Last Jedi feels bloated by comparison with one-too-many story lines, humor that falls flat and too many unnecessary new characters that are given far too much screen time.

I love many facets of The Last Jedi, but some scenes just make me groan. I really don’t see it gaining the same level of appreciation over time as Empire did.

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I don’t buy this ‘TESB was just as polarising’ argument. Sure, you can find detractors of just about anything if you look hard enough. I bet there were fans of ‘Meet the Beatles’ that thought ‘Sgt Peppers’ was pompous garbage.

Of course I only have my own perspective, but as a SW fan in 1980 I recall nothing but rapture at how awesome TESB was. It may have been jarring to some - it took risks in establishing a saga rather than just retreading the original - but overall people were just thrilled that the whole thing had been ramped up to 11. It’s not like people were claiming that TESB had killed the series or split the fanbase (and I’m pretty sure Kenner and Marvel suffered no ills).

The only reason anyone could’ve had a beef with TESB is if they were annoyed at it’s ‘middle chapter’ status and/or possibly that it was too dour compared to the comic-booky original. TLJ is derided because it messes with established canon, has plotholes you could drive a Star Destroyer through, and confirms the notion that JJ Abrams didn’t give a hoot about all the ‘mystery boxes’ he used to seduce us into liking the previous one. I’m not saying this to be a troll - I quite like the movies despite all this stuff. But sitting around and referencing Joseph Campbell and postulating world-building that simply never occurred to the writers of these movies is doing their work for them. We did it for Lucas when he couldn’t even make prequels that lined up with his original films, and we’re doing it now. Which is fun of course, but let’s not kid ourselves.

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rodneyfaile said:

CRITICAL OPINION: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK‘S ORIGINAL REVIEWS
JANUARY 23, 2014

https://www.starwars.com/news/critical-opinion-the-empire-strikes-back-original-reviews

There’s some really interesting reading here - but I don’t see how this remotely resembles the reaction to TLJ. The critics cited in this article are basically writing off TESB - and Star Wars as an entity - as childish nonsense. That’s just typical movie-critic snobbery. The fans for the most part wouldn’t have given a damn, and the kids buying action figures in droves would’ve been equally oblivious.

On the other hand the critics loved TLJ. It’s the fans that don’t like it, and this is for reasons of tone and canon and story and so forth. It’s not the same thing at all IMO.

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Shopping Maul said:

rodneyfaile said:

CRITICAL OPINION: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK‘S ORIGINAL REVIEWS
JANUARY 23, 2014

https://www.starwars.com/news/critical-opinion-the-empire-strikes-back-original-reviews

There’s some really interesting reading here - but I don’t see how this remotely resembles the reaction to TLJ. The critics cited in this article are basically writing off TESB - and Star Wars as an entity - as childish nonsense. That’s just typical movie-critic snobbery. The fans for the most part wouldn’t have given a damn, and the kids buying action figures in droves would’ve been equally oblivious.

On the other hand the critics loved TLJ. It’s the fans that don’t like it, and this is for reasons of tone and canon and story and so forth. It’s not the same thing at all IMO.

yotsuya said:

Wait for IX to come out. Absorb it. Watch the ST in its complete form and see how TLJ fits and then give us a more reasoned opinion. I bet some will change their mind as many of us did about TESB in the years since it came out.

yotsuya seemed to be saying that some people’s opinions may change or evolve on TLJ when the Sequel Trilogy is complete - and viewed in a different context to what it is now - in a Trilogy only two-thirds finished.

He didn’t seem to be comparing the levels of criticism to both Empire and TLJ - just that some people’s opinions may have changed after Jedi was released and time was taken to reevaluate the Original Trilogy as a whole.

Seems reasonable, that.

rodneyfaile just helpfully posted some additional reviews on Empire he found - doesn’t seem either he or yotsuya were comparing the differences between fan reviews and those of ‘professional’ film critics either.
 

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The Last Jedi is a well written and well made movie, and I think that is why many critics like it. The Last Jedi also takes Luke Skywalker, one of the most beloved characters of all time, in some very unexpected directions. Some people find that very refreshing and others find it a travesty, thus the split between fans. I think over time people will appreciate TLJ more.

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rodneyfaile said:

The Last Jedi is a well written and well made movie, and I think that is why many critics like it. The Last Jedi also takes Luke Skywalker, one of the most beloved characters of all time, in some very unexpected directions. Some people find that very refreshing and others find it a travesty, thus the split between fans. I think over time people will appreciate TLJ more.

I agree TLJ is well made with amazing visuals, and generally strong performances (except Hux, who’s just a buffoon in this one), but I’m not sure it is that well written. It’s not badly written, I think, and has plenty of good and sometimes even great elements, but a lot of criticism has been leveled at the rather contrived “slow chase”, which is the backbone of the movie, the tonal issues, the superfluous casino plot, the contrived introduction of DJ into the story, and the whole Poe/Holdo conflict, which relies on characters not communicating for no reason. I mean is a film that has Holdo perform a kamikaze maneuver in a universe, where droids can perform complex tasks really that well written, even if the excitement and visuals distract from this fact? I would say the writing is a rather mixed bag, where the good often outshines the bad. I conjecture the critics liked TLJ, because it is an above average movie with plenty of highlights and surprises when seen in a vaccuum, while the fans are split over the way the film connects to the previous episodes in the saga.

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DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

The Last Jedi is a well written and well made movie, and I think that is why many critics like it. The Last Jedi also takes Luke Skywalker, one of the most beloved characters of all time, in some very unexpected directions. Some people find that very refreshing and others find it a travesty, thus the split between fans. I think over time people will appreciate TLJ more.

I agree TLJ is well made with amazing visuals, and generally strong performances (except Hux, who’s just a buffoon in this one), but I’m not sure it is that well written. It’s not badly written, I think, and has plenty of good and sometimes even great elements, but a lot of criticism has been leveled at the rather contrived “slow chase”, which is the backbone of the movie, the tonal issues, the superfluous casino plot, the contrived introduction of DJ into the story, and the whole Poe/Holdo conflict, which relies on characters not communicating for no reason. I mean is a film that has Holdo perform a kamikaze maneuver in a universe, where droids can perform complex tasks really that well written, even if the excitement and visuals distract from this fact? I would say the writing is a rather mixed bag, where the good often outshines the bad. I conjecture the critics liked TLJ, because it is an above average movie with plenty of highlights and surprises when seen in a vaccuum, while the fans are split over the way the film connects to the previous episodes in the saga.

This is the best, even-handed summary of the TLJ response I’ve seen. Good job.

ROTJ Storyboard Reconstruction Project

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DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Ah… I finally found something with meat to it. Rather than just recollections, this article did research and pulled up actual fan reactions from TESB in 1980. Sure, today it is the gold standard of Star Wars for many, but what did people think when it was the dark sequel to an insanely popular movie. Well, fan letters published in Starlog reveal a lot of that.

http://www.acriticalhit.com/fans-react-empire-strikes-back-1980/

Reading this I can imagagine if modern social media had existed back then. I still remember my reaction. For the longest time TESB was the movie to watch between the amazing Star Wars and the incredible ROTJ. It was the Star TRek III to II and IV - the middle of a great story. Eventually I came around. But I see that same genius in TLJ. The characters are put through the ringer and come out the other side wiser for the experience. They handed TLJ to a good character writer who took where they started in TFA and carried on the story. It was written before we ever saw TFA. Before fans built up expectations. Lucas always waited until after one film came out to write the next, but the have been on a faster schedule and so TLJ was written when TFA was still in production and a few things about TFA were changed. And the more I look at the presented issues, the more I realize that all the big issues are not with TLJ, but with the setup in TFA that TLJ delivers on what was promised. Han gave us the concise narrative of Luke in TFA and TLJ didn’t deviate at all. This trilogy is driven by the fall of Ben Solo and the rise of Kylo Ren. Luke in exile, Leia and Han at odds and back to their old roles, everything was setup by Abrams in TFA.

When you think about May 1980, fans didn’t know what to expect. The had the novel and movie of Star Wars (with the published script to keep the movie fresh in lieu of home video). But in 1979, the got three new Star Wars novels as well as the Marvel comic that kept the story going. What came out in May 1980 was nothing like any of those. Irvin Kershner directed his typical people driven story with a script by the legendary Leigh Bracket with changes by Lawrence Kasdan and the original story by George Lucas. It took he wave of success that Star Wars ended with and dumped the characters into turmoil that didn’t end with the end credits. Many didn’t like the direction. Many didn’t believe that Vader was really Luke’s father. And who was this other Yoda spoke of? It was not the film people expected and they griped about it. There really wasn’t a platform for that voice to drown out the box office results. But it was there. And now we have the ST continuing the story and TLJ is the middle chapter and took a similar character based approach and also ended on a dark note. Though this time a beloved character wasn’t just in carbonite, he was dead. Well, as dead as a Jedi gets in Star Wars since he is expected to be back in the next film. And there were more characters to follow (TLJ has three stories instead of two). But the parallel in reaction is fascinating. And we have one of our own who never took to TESB, at least from what I hear. Mike Verta is a fan of Star Wars - as in the 1977 film only. I’m sure he isn’t alone. But most of us who watched the films when they came out have had our opinions change over time and I’m sure that will happen to TLJ as well. I personally love it and wouldn’t change anything. I don’t expect everyone to share that opinion, but saying TLJ ruined the saga, that is subverted expectations, that it threw out Abrams mystery boxes, etc. is just the initial reaction. Wait for IX to come out. Absorb it. Watch the ST in its complete form and see how TLJ fits and then give us a more reasoned opinion. I bet some will change their mind as many of us did about TESB in the years since it came out.

Why would a positive opinion in the absence of IX be any more reasoned than a negative one?

I also don’t really see how a few fan letters in Starlog can really be compared to the avalanche of reviews, analyses, rants, opinion pieces that followed in the wake of TLJ’s release. It’s apples and oranges as far as I’m concerned, and certainly should not be considered as some kind of proof that TLJ will be considered a masterpiece by posterity. Some films with mixed responses will be re-evaluated, or seen in a more postive light, while others won’t.

It isn’t apples and oranges. It is 1980 vs. 2017. A few letters in Starlog in 1980 is the modern equivalent of a lot of comments on Youtube or non-critic reviews on Rotten Tomatoes. These big places for people to leave their comments didn’t exist in 1980. So all we can use to draw comparisons is what was recorded back then. The important thing isn’t the volume, it is the ratio. A great many fans were not happy with TESB. How the percentage exactly compares to TLJ is impossible to know, but the similarities in tone are undeniable. And from my exploration of how many fans actually dislike TLJ, it is a relatively small percentage of the overall fanbase. It is a very loud portion of the fanbase which makes it seem like a lot, but appearances are usually deceiving. People with complaints are louder than those who are satisfied.

And I’m not offering proof that TLJ WILL be considered a masterpiece, only a comparison to the film that is most often cited as a masterpiece today. What the future feeling will be is an unknown. But at a guess, it will not be the most hated film in the saga.

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NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

Abrams really robbed us of [the wider galactic situation]. TLJ had no reason to expand on it. Any lazy writing lies with Abrams.

That’s quite a lot of blame to place on one guy. And sure, his was the cardinal sin of failing to properly establish the relationship between the First Order, the Republic, and the Resistance, but these were issues that could have been resolved in a single scene in TFA and which could have just as easily been resolved in TLJ. Instead we are given no explanation for the First Order’s power nor its resilience after their primary base and weapon was destroyed. We are given no explanation for what remains of the Republic, nor of why the Resistance consists of only a few ships at the start of TLJ. As you say, the Republic doesn’t exist in TLJ in any tangible sense, which means that the only real relationship which now exists for the audience is between the First Order and the Resistance.

The setup belongs at the start. ANH set up the civil war and the basic political structure. TPM setup the old republic and the trade federation conflict. ATOC setup the new separatist conflict. TFA setup the First Order and then dwelled on Luke for the rest of the film. Pretty much the focus was on Luke from the crawl to the end. A few lines would not have been out of place to help understand the galactic situation and how wiping out the senate would destroy the Republic. So yeah, I blame Abrams. An explanation doesn’t really belong in the middle chapter for something that happened in the first chapter.

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Luke Skywalker has vanished.
In his absence, the sinister
FIRST ORDER has risen from
the ashes of the Empire
and will not rest until
Skywalker, the last Jedi,
has been destroyed.

With the support of the
REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa
leads a brave RESISTANCE.
She is desperate to find her
brother Luke and gain his
help in restoring peace
and justice to the galaxy.

Leia has sent her most daring
pilot on a secret mission
to Jakku, where an old ally
has discovered a clue to
Luke’s whereabouts…

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Valheru_84 said:

It continually amazes me how often the OT is shit on in defence of TLJ and people attempt to normalise the criticism of TLJ by trying to draw parallels with audience reactions to TESB.

Star Wars and its fandom is where it’s at because of TLJ, the ST at large and the powers that be handling of the situation. Nothing that came before has anything to do with the current predicament.

Val

I disagree. The tone of the complains from 1980 about TESB and the ones now for TLJ are similar. They don’t like the direction - things could have been done different. Basically fan expectations were not met. Move forward form 1980 to 1995 and the trilogy had been out and complete for 12 years and the fans had a new appreciation of the middle chapter. I’m saying give TLJ 12 years and a chance to be seen as the middle of a complete ST and then let’s talk about it. Where we are right now is that most fans liked the film but a very vocal group did not. And using the reaction to Solo to say that TLJ has left fandom in a damage state doesn’t fit. Most of the reaction to Solo was because of the troubleed production, another actor in the iconic part, bad word of mouth, and the competition when it came out. Basically when faced with the choice of which movie to see that month, Solo lost out to the competition (Deadpool 2 and Infinity War). If TLJ had any impact, it was more likely the timing than the feelings toward TLJ. When you look at home video sales, TLJ topped the year and Solo was 11, behind the same films it lost to in the box office. So the home video of TLJ doesn’t reflect bad fan reaction but the fan reaction to Solo does reflect the same lower interest as the box office numbers. Also interesting was that if you look at the previous years, Rogue One was number one and so was The Force Awakens. https://www.the-numbers.com/home-market/bluray-sales/2018

So the reaction to Solo at the box office does not reflect the current standing of fandom to the Star Wars franchise. If TLJ was so controversial with fans, I would expect a couple of the other movies to have done better in the home video market instead of it taking the prize once again. There just wasn’t the interest in Solo. People have built it into the poster child for damaged fandom and I don’t see it. I see the numbers say that it only sparked about 1/3 the interest that the other Star Wars films have. What it comes down to is that they gambled on another Rogue One and lost. But reaction and box office sales for IX will be the real telling point. I doubt there will be much change unless it is pitted against something big when it is released.

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rodneyfaile said:

Luke Skywalker has vanished.
In his absence, the sinister
FIRST ORDER has risen from
the ashes of the Empire
and will not rest until
Skywalker, the last Jedi,
has been destroyed.

With the support of the
REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa
leads a brave RESISTANCE.
She is desperate to find her
brother Luke and gain his
help in restoring peace
and justice to the galaxy.

Leia has sent her most daring
pilot on a secret mission
to Jakku, where an old ally
has discovered a clue to
Luke’s whereabouts…

compared to…

It is a period of civil war.
Rebel spaceships, striking
from a hidden base, have won
their first victory against
the evil Galactic Empire.

During the battle, Rebel
spies managed to steal secret
plans to the Empire’s
ultimate weapon, the DEATH
STAR, an armored space
station with enough power to
destroy an entire planet.

Pursued by the Empire’s
sinister agents, Princess
Leia races home aboard her
starship, custodian of the
stolen plans that can save
her people and restore
freedom to the galaxy…

See how the stage is set by the original crawl. The players are easy to understand and clearly delineated. In TFA the setup is more complex, but rather than go into any part except the First Order, it is all about Luke. TLJ does a better job…

The FIRST ORDER reigns.
Having decimated the peaceful
Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke
now deploys the merciless
legions to seize military
control of the galaxy.

Only General Leia Organa’s
band of RESISTANCE fighters
stand against the rising
tyranny, certain that Jedi
Master Luke Skywalker will
return and restore a spark of
hope to the fight.

But the Resistance has been
exposed. As the First Order
speeds toward the rebel base,
the brave heroes mount a
desperate escape…

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Hard to argue that fan regard for TLJ won’t improve over time. To what extent is obviously up for debate. But a lot* of the complaints from fans have to do with expectations not matched or disliking how preexisting characters were used. As the years go on, and the younger fanbase (who don’t have the baggage of years of expectations) grows up and becomes a larger percentage of the whole, TLJ will certainly improve in standing. The same exact thing happened with the prequels (even as the critical appraisal seemed to go in the opposite direction).

*If you’re thinking of responding to this saying “but not all of the complaints,” how about just don’t respond instead. That’s not what I’m talking about and I’m very tired of that kind of bullshit at this point.

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oojason said:

Shopping Maul said:

rodneyfaile said:

CRITICAL OPINION: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK‘S ORIGINAL REVIEWS
JANUARY 23, 2014

https://www.starwars.com/news/critical-opinion-the-empire-strikes-back-original-reviews

There’s some really interesting reading here - but I don’t see how this remotely resembles the reaction to TLJ. The critics cited in this article are basically writing off TESB - and Star Wars as an entity - as childish nonsense. That’s just typical movie-critic snobbery. The fans for the most part wouldn’t have given a damn, and the kids buying action figures in droves would’ve been equally oblivious.

On the other hand the critics loved TLJ. It’s the fans that don’t like it, and this is for reasons of tone and canon and story and so forth. It’s not the same thing at all IMO.

yotsuya said:

Wait for IX to come out. Absorb it. Watch the ST in its complete form and see how TLJ fits and then give us a more reasoned opinion. I bet some will change their mind as many of us did about TESB in the years since it came out.

yotsuya seemed to be saying that some people’s opinions may change or evolve on TLJ when the Sequel Trilogy is complete - and viewed in a different context to what it is now - in a Trilogy only two-thirds finished.

He didn’t seem to be comparing the levels of criticism to both Empire and TLJ - just that some people’s opinions may have changed after Jedi was released and time was taken to reevaluate the Original Trilogy as a whole.

Seems reasonable, that.

rodneyfaile just helpfully posted some additional reviews on Empire he found - doesn’t seem either he or yotsuya were comparing the differences between fan reviews and those of ‘professional’ film critics either.
 

I just think it’s a bit of a ‘Flying Spaghetti Monster’ argument. I’ve seen bad reviews of Citizen Kane. It doesn’t mean I’m going to extrapolate that Transformers Revenge of the Fallen might someday be lauded as genius because Citizen Kane also got some bad reviews. The timing, tone, circumstances etc surrounding TESB are nothing like what has happened with TLJ. I think the comparison is flawed.

I don’t actually care (just like I didn’t care about critics or bad press when I was a kid) but I’d prefer we discussed the movies on their own merits without this ‘TESB was also controversial’ meme. There was no ‘space Leia’ moment in TESB. No-one felt that Luke’s character arc had been betrayed or that general Rieeken was withholding information for no good reason or that Bespin was a waste of time. Let’s stay on point.

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You guys should read David Gerrold’s ESB review sometime. It’s called The Empire Strikes Out.

Forum Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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 (Edited)

yotsuya said:

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

Abrams really robbed us of [the wider galactic situation]. TLJ had no reason to expand on it. Any lazy writing lies with Abrams.

That’s quite a lot of blame to place on one guy. And sure, his was the cardinal sin of failing to properly establish the relationship between the First Order, the Republic, and the Resistance, but these were issues that could have been resolved in a single scene in TFA and which could have just as easily been resolved in TLJ. Instead we are given no explanation for the First Order’s power nor its resilience after their primary base and weapon was destroyed. We are given no explanation for what remains of the Republic, nor of why the Resistance consists of only a few ships at the start of TLJ. As you say, the Republic doesn’t exist in TLJ in any tangible sense, which means that the only real relationship which now exists for the audience is between the First Order and the Resistance.

The setup belongs at the start. ANH set up the civil war and the basic political structure. TPM setup the old republic and the trade federation conflict. ATOC setup the new separatist conflict. TFA setup the First Order and then dwelled on Luke for the rest of the film. Pretty much the focus was on Luke from the crawl to the end. A few lines would not have been out of place to help understand the galactic situation and how wiping out the senate would destroy the Republic. So yeah, I blame Abrams. An explanation doesn’t really belong in the middle chapter for something that happened in the first chapter.

I will reiterate, that Abrams did not destroy the Republic or turn the Resistance into rebels. If anything Abrams at least (not very successfully) tried to keep up the semblance of a different political situation with the FO residing on some ice rock in the unknown regions, and the Resistance the guard dog of the Republic, even though it was pretty obvious that the Empire vs rebels vibe should be maintained. Johnson threw out the window dressing and cemented the whole Empire vs rebels retread, that has once again become the central conflict, even though many other scenerios were possible based on Abrams setup.

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Shopping Maul said:

It’s the fans that don’t like it…

Seems a fair few fans do like it (TLJ).
 

Shopping Maul said:

oojason said:

Shopping Maul said:

rodneyfaile said:

CRITICAL OPINION: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK‘S ORIGINAL REVIEWS
JANUARY 23, 2014

https://www.starwars.com/news/critical-opinion-the-empire-strikes-back-original-reviews

There’s some really interesting reading here - but I don’t see how this remotely resembles the reaction to TLJ. The critics cited in this article are basically writing off TESB - and Star Wars as an entity - as childish nonsense. That’s just typical movie-critic snobbery. The fans for the most part wouldn’t have given a damn, and the kids buying action figures in droves would’ve been equally oblivious.

On the other hand the critics loved TLJ. It’s the fans that don’t like it, and this is for reasons of tone and canon and story and so forth. It’s not the same thing at all IMO.

yotsuya said:

Wait for IX to come out. Absorb it. Watch the ST in its complete form and see how TLJ fits and then give us a more reasoned opinion. I bet some will change their mind as many of us did about TESB in the years since it came out.

yotsuya seemed to be saying that some people’s opinions may change or evolve on TLJ when the Sequel Trilogy is complete - and viewed in a different context to what it is now - in a Trilogy only two-thirds finished.

He didn’t seem to be comparing the levels of criticism to both Empire and TLJ - just that some people’s opinions may have changed after Jedi was released and time was taken to reevaluate the Original Trilogy as a whole.

Seems reasonable, that.

rodneyfaile just helpfully posted some additional reviews on Empire he found - doesn’t seem either he or yotsuya were comparing the differences between fan reviews and those of ‘professional’ film critics either.
 

I just think it’s a bit of a ‘Flying Spaghetti Monster’ argument. I’ve seen bad reviews of Citizen Kane. It doesn’t mean I’m going to extrapolate that Transformers Revenge of the Fallen might someday be lauded as genius because Citizen Kane also got some bad reviews. The timing, tone, circumstances etc surrounding TESB are nothing like what has happened with TLJ. I think the comparison is flawed.

I don’t actually care (just like I didn’t care about critics or bad press when I was a kid) but I’d prefer we discussed the movies on their own merits without this ‘TESB was also controversial’ meme. There was no ‘space Leia’ moment in TESB. No-one felt that Luke’s character arc had been betrayed or that general Rieeken was withholding information for no good reason or that Bespin was a waste of time. Let’s stay on point.

Flying Spaghetti Monster argument? Citizen Kane? Extrapolating Revenge Of The Fallen? What…?

In the context of me saying ‘yotsuya seemed to be saying that some people’s opinions may change or evolve on TLJ when the Sequel Trilogy is complete - and viewed in a different context to what it is now - in a Trilogy only two-thirds finished’ the point has been missed by quite some distance. No worries, I’ll leave it there.

A little patience goes a long way on this old-school Rebel base. If you are having issues finding what you are looking for, these will be of some help…

Welcome to the OriginalTrilogy.com | Introduce yourself in here | Useful info within : About : Help : Site Rules : Fan Project Rules : Announcements
How do I do this?’ on the OriginalTrilogy.com; some info & answers + FAQs - includes info on how to search for projects and threads on the OT•com

A Project Index for Star Wars Preservations (Harmy’s Despecialized & 4K77/80/83 etc) : A Project Index for Star Wars Fan Edits (adywan & Hal 9000 etc)

… and take your time to look around this site before posting - to get a feel for this place. Don’t just lazily make yet another thread asking for projects.

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DominicCobb said:

Hard to argue that fan regard for TLJ won’t improve over time. To what extent is obviously up for debate. But a lot* of the complaints from fans have to do with expectations not matched or disliking how preexisting characters were used. As the years go on, and the younger fanbase (who don’t have the baggage of years of expectations) grows up and becomes a larger percentage of the whole, TLJ will certainly improve in standing. The same exact thing happened with the prequels (even as the critical appraisal seemed to go in the opposite direction).

*If you’re thinking of responding to this saying “but not all of the complaints,” how about just don’t respond instead. That’s not what I’m talking about and I’m very tired of that kind of bullshit at this point.

It’s actually pretty easy to argue, that fan regard won’t necessarily improve over time. You more or less regard the very negative opinions as outliers that will in future get less weight in the overall assessment of TLJ, but you totally disregard the positive outliers with extreme praise, that also stem from mostly older fans, who were pleased the ST distanced itself from the PT in both visuals and style. Additionally you disregard the effect episode IX will have on the overall assessment of the trilogy including TLJ. ROTS is largely lumped in with the other prequels, despite the fact that it was actually positively recieved, because the entire trilogy was mostly seen as a disappointment. It is quite possible episode IX will please neither fans or critics of TLJ, and so the entire trilogy may end up being regarded as pretty mediocre, and a missed opportunity. Anything is possible at this point. TLJ may improve in standing, or it may not.

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Hard to argue that fan regard for TLJ won’t improve over time. To what extent is obviously up for debate. But a lot* of the complaints from fans have to do with expectations not matched or disliking how preexisting characters were used. As the years go on, and the younger fanbase (who don’t have the baggage of years of expectations) grows up and becomes a larger percentage of the whole, TLJ will certainly improve in standing. The same exact thing happened with the prequels (even as the critical appraisal seemed to go in the opposite direction).

*If you’re thinking of responding to this saying “but not all of the complaints,” how about just don’t respond instead. That’s not what I’m talking about and I’m very tired of that kind of bullshit at this point.

It’s actually pretty easy to argue, that fan regard won’t necessarily improve over time. You more or less regard the very negative opinions as outliers that will in future get less weight in the overall assessment of TLJ, but you totally disregard the positive outliers with extreme praise, that also stem from mostly older fans, who were pleased the ST distanced itself from the PT in both visuals and style.

I’m not talking about outliers. What are the extremes have nothing to do with my point. Obviously a significant portion of the fanbase disliked the film (and a significant portion liked it). What’s the majority and what’s the minority doesn’t matter. I just think it’s hard to argue that, in the future, there won’t undoubtedly be more and more fans who fall into the “like” column, as many of the reasons for the dislike fade away.

Additionally you disregard the effect episode IX will have on the overall assessment of the trilogy including TLJ. ROTS is largely lumped in with the other prequels, despite the fact that it was actually positively recieved, because the entire trilogy was mostly seen as a disappointment. It is quite possible episode IX will please neither fans or critics of TLJ, and so the entire trilogy may end up being regarded as pretty mediocre, and a missed opportunity. Anything is possible at this point. TLJ may improve in standing, or it may not.

You’re absolutely right that IX will affect the overall assessment of the trilogy. But again, with the prequels, you ignore my point, which is that there seems to be far more PT fans now than before, whether or not some other fans regard the whole trilogy as a disappointment or not.

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DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Hard to argue that fan regard for TLJ won’t improve over time. To what extent is obviously up for debate. But a lot* of the complaints from fans have to do with expectations not matched or disliking how preexisting characters were used. As the years go on, and the younger fanbase (who don’t have the baggage of years of expectations) grows up and becomes a larger percentage of the whole, TLJ will certainly improve in standing. The same exact thing happened with the prequels (even as the critical appraisal seemed to go in the opposite direction).

*If you’re thinking of responding to this saying “but not all of the complaints,” how about just don’t respond instead. That’s not what I’m talking about and I’m very tired of that kind of bullshit at this point.

It’s actually pretty easy to argue, that fan regard won’t necessarily improve over time. You more or less regard the very negative opinions as outliers that will in future get less weight in the overall assessment of TLJ, but you totally disregard the positive outliers with extreme praise, that also stem from mostly older fans, who were pleased the ST distanced itself from the PT in both visuals and style.

I’m not talking about outliers. What are the extremes have nothing to do with my point. Obviously a significant portion of the fanbase disliked the film (and a significant portion liked it). What’s the majority and what’s the minority doesn’t matter. I just think it’s hard to argue that, in the future, there won’t undoubtedly be more and more fans who fall into the “like” column, as many of the reasons for the dislike fade away.

Additionally you disregard the effect episode IX will have on the overall assessment of the trilogy including TLJ. ROTS is largely lumped in with the other prequels, despite the fact that it was actually positively recieved, because the entire trilogy was mostly seen as a disappointment. It is quite possible episode IX will please neither fans or critics of TLJ, and so the entire trilogy may end up being regarded as pretty mediocre, and a missed opportunity. Anything is possible at this point. TLJ may improve in standing, or it may not.

You’re absolutely right that IX will affect the overall assessment of the trilogy. But again, with the prequels, you ignore my point, which is that there seems to be far more PT fans now than before, whether or not some other fans regard the whole trilogy as a disappointment or not.

There will also be far more films than ever before, so being a Star Wars fan won’t be linked to any specific set of films as it did before. The OT were the only films available for two decades, the PT era lasted for almost 15 years. The ST era will likely not last even half that long. So, unlike the OT and PT the ST will probably not amass a larger following through constant exposure to a single era over a prolonged period of time, as it will be eclipsed by the new kids on the block. As such I don’t see its reputation changing very much aside from dulling both the hatred and the praise as time progresses. The whole ST is just too similar to the OT to stand out from the immense crowd of films and series that will be the future of the franchise.