Politics 2: Electric Boogaloo — Page 831

Mrebo said:

I still don’t care about the NFL or Nike.

I like Warb’s patriotism.

What patriotism is on display?

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

chyron8472 said:

Personally, I think boycotting Nike is misdirected outrage, and that this outrage is just a fad. So many consumer boycotts come and go, and next year no one will remember this one. Being angry at Nike is just the recent popular thing to do.

Well I know it won’t do any good, but I won’t be buying anything from them. It is a matter of principle for me. I have as just as much to protest via boycott as those that protest via disrespecting the Anthem.

Honestly I think you’re the one disrespecting the country. You’re one of these people that’s opposed to any kind of protest that ruffles people’s feathers.

ruffing feathers is one thing, disrespecting the country is another.

If you don’t know why the ideals of America are worth of respect, I don’t know what to tell you.

I actually do respect the ideals of America. I think that the flag worship you and President Trump demand is antithetical to those ideals.

I don’t worship the flag, I respect it.

What’s wrong with disrespecting the country? Why is it automatically worthy of respect no matter what?

I’ve also not once heard your justification for how this is disrespecting the anthem or why that’s even a bad thing, but I know you’ll never bother to actually explain that so I’ll stop asking.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/301

(a)Designation.—
The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.

(b)Conduct During Playing.—During a rendition of the national anthem—

(1) when the flag is displayed—

(A) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note;

(B) members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for individuals in uniform; and

(C) all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and

(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.

I don’t care about any of this arbitrary bullshit. This has nothing to do with what I asked.

It has everything to do with what you asked. What I posted is the proper etiquette during the National Anthem. You asked how kneeling during the anthem is disrespectful. It is disrespectful because it violates the proper etiquette above. You are supposed to stand at attention.

I don’t care about the prescribed etiquette. Why is it bad to disregard that?

Because it is. There is proper etiquette and improper etiquette. Kneeling is improper. Also I don’t think the playing of the anthem is a time appropriate for political speech.

Even if it is disrespectful, which I don’t grant, why is it bad to be disrespectful when you’re addressing horrifying issues?

There are other ways to address horrifying issues.

Nobody got anything done by being completely respectful. In fact, I think that the Kaepernick protest is too respectful. It’ll take a lot more to put an end to police brutality in this country.

Oh good God.

EDIT: And everybody already knows that you have a “right” to do whatever you fucking want so stop reminding us. We get it. We aren’t dumb. We know.

I will do whatever the fuck I want! and the reason I do remind you that is that it seems as though you don’t act like it sometimes.

Oh my god, why are you not able to comprehend that not liking something doesn’t mean that I believe you don’t have the right? I’m just tired of reading that shit all the goddamn time.

There is a lot of shit I am tired of reading.

EDIT: I remember a long time ago that you claimed to be inspired by the work of MLK. I don’t see how that’s possible given how opposed to offending the status quo you are. MLK wouldn’t have accomplished anything if he’d been too scared to offend blind patriots that can’t handle anything that might vaguely disrespect the country.

That I am shows that there is a difference between ruffling feathers and disrespecting the anthem. I don’t recall MLK ever disrespecting the anthem.

It actually shows your ignorance of history and the man you respect. Here’s what MLK had to say about folks like you: " I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” " - Letter from the Birmingham Jail, 1963.

You are incorrect, I am not more devoted to order than justice.

Had MLK “disrespected the anthem” would you still like him?

Not as much as I do, but I still would have respected all he achieved.

dahmage said:

Mrebo said:

I still don’t care about the NFL or Nike.

I like Warb’s patriotism.

What patriotism is on display?

I thought it was patriotic to respect the Anthem. I also thought it was patriotic to agree that kneeling during the Anthem while disrespectful, is protected speech.

oojason said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

Of all the things to boycott… we’ve had football players who were rapists, into dog fights, and all manner of truly horrible things that physically hurt innocent people. But which one that brings in the president and half the country, kneeling during the anthem? What a skewed sense of perspective. I hate this self-aggrandizing pseudo patriotism.

Aye, the ageing cynic in me thinks that many of those who wish to deflect away from addressing and tackling the actual reasons as to why some players are taking / have taken a knee are quite content or happy at the misplaced furore over it.

Imagine if those with this misplaced furore and passion… aimed their ire at addressing the reasons behind the players’ protests too - we may actually get back to the most important issue on the subject, which has seemingly been conveniently ignored of late.
 

As said in another thread - ‘seems what people who are taking a knee want to highlight issues that are important to them, their friends, families, their communities, to their country - in a bid to make it fairer, better, and just - seems quite ‘patriotic’ that - fighting for that better future, for everyone.’ To me it seems working and fighting towards a better future for their country is more patriotic than displaying some faux outrage at a notion of ‘disrespect’ before a symbol (anthem or flag) that represents said country.
 

Yes.

moviefreakedmind said:

Police brutality is a partisan issue in this country. The people opposing Kaepernick and the other NFL players that have been doing this are also on the side of the abusing police most of the time.

That is simply not true.

1. it is possible to believe to that police are abusing black people and that it must stop and yet believe protesting the Anthem is the wrong way to go about it.

2. it is possible to side with the police and believe that situation of police abusing black people has been greatly exaggerated.

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

chyron8472 said:

Personally, I think boycotting Nike is misdirected outrage, and that this outrage is just a fad. So many consumer boycotts come and go, and next year no one will remember this one. Being angry at Nike is just the recent popular thing to do.

Well I know it won’t do any good, but I won’t be buying anything from them. It is a matter of principle for me. I have as just as much to protest via boycott as those that protest via disrespecting the Anthem.

Honestly I think you’re the one disrespecting the country. You’re one of these people that’s opposed to any kind of protest that ruffles people’s feathers.

ruffing feathers is one thing, disrespecting the country is another.

If you don’t know why the ideals of America are worth of respect, I don’t know what to tell you.

I actually do respect the ideals of America. I think that the flag worship you and President Trump demand is antithetical to those ideals.

I don’t worship the flag, I respect it.

That’s sad. It’s a piece of cloth.

It is more than a piece of cloth

What’s wrong with disrespecting the country? Why is it automatically worthy of respect no matter what?

I’ve also not once heard your justification for how this is disrespecting the anthem or why that’s even a bad thing, but I know you’ll never bother to actually explain that so I’ll stop asking.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/301

(a)Designation.—
The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.

(b)Conduct During Playing.—During a rendition of the national anthem—

(1) when the flag is displayed—

(A) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note;

(B) members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for individuals in uniform; and

(C) all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and

(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.

I don’t care about any of this arbitrary bullshit. This has nothing to do with what I asked.

It has everything to do with what you asked. What I posted is the proper etiquette during the National Anthem. You asked how kneeling during the anthem is disrespectful. It is disrespectful because it violates the proper etiquette above. You are supposed to stand at attention.

I don’t care about the prescribed etiquette. Why is it bad to disregard that?

Because it is. There is proper etiquette and improper etiquette. Kneeling is improper. Also I don’t think the playing of the anthem is a time appropriate for political speech.

Even if it is disrespectful, which I don’t grant, why is it bad to be disrespectful when you’re addressing horrifying issues?

There are other ways to address horrifying issues.

It definitely wouldn’t have gotten as much attention.

Oh I think they could have gotten alot of attention by other methods. One would have to refuse to talk about the game in press conferences and instead talk about police brutality. The players may have gotten fined for this by the NFL, but that would be worth it to them, right? They also could have worn “Black Lives Matter” stickers and what not on their uniforms, again it would risk a fine but it would be worth it to them, right? They could have used they influence and wealth to put together a peaceful march on Washington, like MLK did. There are all sorts of things they could have done.

I know you lean towards the Mike the Cop, “Innocent people don’t run” line of reasoning where it’s acceptable for cops to shoot unarmed people to death so you probably wouldn’t have appreciated any protest against these cops.

You don’t will never understand what I think about these shootings because you won’t take the time to calmly, logically, rationally and fairly go over them, review the facts, and get the story from BOTH side. Instead you automatically assume the police are guilty

You can’t deny that this was effective.

Was it? Has it stopped police shootings yet?

Nobody got anything done by being completely respectful. In fact, I think that the Kaepernick protest is too respectful. It’ll take a lot more to put an end to police brutality in this country.

Oh good God.

What’s that mean? I’m right.

Sorry, I can’t answer that without violating the rules of the forum.

You have to get in people’s faces and get their attention to make change.

And here I thought logically reasoning was the way to go.

Kaepernick wasn’t doing anything abrasive,

I guess you think he should have given the middle finger during the anthem.

and that’s why ultimately this protest won’t be the one that finally pushes this country towards holding its police accountable.

But I thought you said above that “You can’t deny that this was effective”. Which is it?

Name me one person who achieved any political change by operating totally within what society deems proper etiquette.

I can’t but I can name you one that achieved much more than Kapaernick without protesting during the Anthem: MLK.

EDIT: And everybody already knows that you have a “right” to do whatever you fucking want so stop reminding us. We get it. We aren’t dumb. We know.

I will do whatever the fuck I want! and the reason I do remind you that is that it seems as though you don’t act like it sometimes.

Oh my god, why are you not able to comprehend that not liking something doesn’t mean that I believe you don’t have the right? I’m just tired of reading that shit all the goddamn time.

There is a lot of shit I am tired of reading.

EDIT: I remember a long time ago that you claimed to be inspired by the work of MLK. I don’t see how that’s possible given how opposed to offending the status quo you are. MLK wouldn’t have accomplished anything if he’d been too scared to offend blind patriots that can’t handle anything that might vaguely disrespect the country.

That I am shows that there is a difference between ruffling feathers and disrespecting the anthem. I don’t recall MLK ever disrespecting the anthem.

It actually shows your ignorance of history and the man you respect. Here’s what MLK had to say about folks like you: " I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” " - Letter from the Birmingham Jail, 1963.

You are incorrect, I am not more devoted to order than justice.

In this case you are. It’s actually a little worse. You’re more devoted to etiquette than to justice.

wrong again.

Had MLK “disrespected the anthem” would you still like him?

Not as much as I do, but I still would have respected all he achieved.

What a joke. If he had kneeled during the anthem then you would respect him less? Well, that’s just disgusting.

Read this article: https://abcnews.go.com/US/veterans-knee-support-national-anthem-protests/story?id=50075609

How much respect have you lost for those veterans?

A tiny bit. But I still have great respect for what they did for this country. I guess veterans, of all people, have more a right to do this than people like Kapaernick who just play football.

Warbler said:

dahmage said:

Mrebo said:

I still don’t care about the NFL or Nike.

I like Warb’s patriotism.

What patriotism is on display?

I thought it was patriotic to respect the Anthem. I also thought it was patriotic to agree that kneeling during the Anthem while disrespectful, is protected speech.

Nope, that’s nationalistic not patriotic.

If I were really nationalistic, I’d want protesting during the Anthem to be outlawed. But I don’t.

oojason said:

‘be first / facts later’ coverage, limited column inches, editors opting (or under pressure) for clicks / sensationalism over quality / wider range of stories.

This definitely is a problem when it comes to covering police shootings.

oojason said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Police brutality is a partisan issue in this country. The people opposing Kaepernick and the other NFL players that have been doing this are also on the side of the abusing police most of the time.

Aye, attacking those that protest can be quite an effective diversionary tactic by those in power

Well, I am not in power.

What I’ll never understand about this debate is that kneeling is literally a form of respect. They couldn’t have picked a less disrespectful form of protest. That there is even a debate is ridiculous and shows that our country has misplaced emphasis on what we find sacred. Having blind worship towards a flag seems to betray the principles that built this country in the first place.

I like Kaepernick’s patriotism.

Warbler said:

oojason said:

‘be first / facts later’ coverage, limited column inches, editors opting (or under pressure) for clicks / sensationalism over quality / wider range of stories.

This definitely is a problem when it comes to covering police shootings.

“Let’s wait for the facts” is code word for “let’s wait until this blows over.”

Jeebus said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

‘be first / facts later’ coverage, limited column inches, editors opting (or under pressure) for clicks / sensationalism over quality / wider range of stories.

This definitely is a problem when it comes to covering police shootings.

“Let’s wait for the facts” is code word for “let’s wait until this blows over.”

Not with me it isn’t. When I say “Let’s wait for the facts” it means “Let’s wait for the facts”. Please don’t put words in my mouth.

DominicCobb said:

What I’ll never understand about this debate is that kneeling is literally a form of respect.

Not when it is done during the Nation Anthem which is a clear violation of the proper protocol.

Warbler said:

DominicCobb said:

What I’ll never understand about this debate is that kneeling is literally a form of respect.

Not when it is done during the Nation Anthem which is a clear violation of the proper protocol.

Proper protocol my ass. The same people complaining the loudest are the ones who have the American flag on their underwear.

Following protocol and showing respect aren’t necessarily the same thing.

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

chyron8472 said:

Personally, I think boycotting Nike is misdirected outrage, and that this outrage is just a fad. So many consumer boycotts come and go, and next year no one will remember this one. Being angry at Nike is just the recent popular thing to do.

Well I know it won’t do any good, but I won’t be buying anything from them. It is a matter of principle for me. I have as just as much to protest via boycott as those that protest via disrespecting the Anthem.

Honestly I think you’re the one disrespecting the country. You’re one of these people that’s opposed to any kind of protest that ruffles people’s feathers.

ruffing feathers is one thing, disrespecting the country is another.

If you don’t know why the ideals of America are worth of respect, I don’t know what to tell you.

I actually do respect the ideals of America. I think that the flag worship you and President Trump demand is antithetical to those ideals.

I don’t worship the flag, I respect it.

That’s sad. It’s a piece of cloth.

It is more than a piece of cloth

Don’t give me that. My family is full of veterans. A member of my immediately family was actually shot multiple times in the service, and guess what, he’s in support of the NFL players.

I thank all the veterans in your family for their service.

If you think that all that death and sacrifice happens for the flag, then that’s fucking sad. I hope that our people are dying for something other than “the flag”.

The flag is a symbol of what the death and sacrifice is for.

What’s wrong with disrespecting the country? Why is it automatically worthy of respect no matter what?

I’ve also not once heard your justification for how this is disrespecting the anthem or why that’s even a bad thing, but I know you’ll never bother to actually explain that so I’ll stop asking.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/301

(a)Designation.—
The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.

(b)Conduct During Playing.—During a rendition of the national anthem—

(1) when the flag is displayed—

(A) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note;

(B) members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for individuals in uniform; and

(C) all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and

(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.

I don’t care about any of this arbitrary bullshit. This has nothing to do with what I asked.

It has everything to do with what you asked. What I posted is the proper etiquette during the National Anthem. You asked how kneeling during the anthem is disrespectful. It is disrespectful because it violates the proper etiquette above. You are supposed to stand at attention.

I don’t care about the prescribed etiquette. Why is it bad to disregard that?

Because it is. There is proper etiquette and improper etiquette. Kneeling is improper. Also I don’t think the playing of the anthem is a time appropriate for political speech.

Even if it is disrespectful, which I don’t grant, why is it bad to be disrespectful when you’re addressing horrifying issues?

There are other ways to address horrifying issues.

It definitely wouldn’t have gotten as much attention.

Oh I think they could have gotten alot of attention by other methods. One would have to refuse to talk about the game in press conferences and instead talk about police brutality. The players may have gotten fined for this by the NFL, but that would be worth it to them, right? They also could have worn “Black Lives Matter” stickers and what not on their uniforms, again it would risk a fine but it would be worth it to them, right? They could have used they influence and wealth to put together a peaceful march on Washington, like MLK did. There are all sorts of things they could have done.

I know you lean towards the Mike the Cop, “Innocent people don’t run” line of reasoning where it’s acceptable for cops to shoot unarmed people to death so you probably wouldn’t have appreciated any protest against these cops.

You don’t will never understand what I think about these shootings because you won’t take the time to calmly, logically, rationally and fairly go over them, review the facts, and get the story from BOTH side. Instead you automatically assume the police are guilty

Not true. I do go over the facts.

Yeah, I noticed that when you refused to watch videos of an actual cop talking about a couple of shootings.

You can’t deny that this was effective.

Was it? Has it stopped police shootings yet?

It got attention.

attention does equal effective.

Nobody got anything done by being completely respectful. In fact, I think that the Kaepernick protest is too respectful. It’ll take a lot more to put an end to police brutality in this country.

Oh good God.

What’s that mean? I’m right.

Sorry, I can’t answer that without violating the rules of the forum.

Pathetic.

whatever.

You have to get in people’s faces and get their attention to make change.

And here I thought logically reasoning was the way to go.

Most people don’t listen to logical reasoning. I’m experiencing someone who’s unwilling to do that right now.

It is interesting that I am experiencing the same thing.

Kaepernick wasn’t doing anything abrasive,

I guess you think he should have given the middle finger during the anthem.

He could have. He might as well have given how people like you are reacting to him.

*sigh* pathetic.

and that’s why ultimately this protest won’t be the one that finally pushes this country towards holding its police accountable.

But I thought you said above that “You can’t deny that this was effective”. Which is it?

It was effective at getting attention. Definitely more effective than BLM stickers would’ve been.

I mentioned more than just stickers. There are probably ideas of things they can do that I can’t even think of.

Name me one person who achieved any political change by operating totally within what society deems proper etiquette.

I can’t but I can name you one that achieved much more than Kapaernick without protesting during the Anthem: MLK.

You are approaching this so simplistically that I honestly feel like I’m talking to an eight-year-old,

I’d tell you what I honestly feel like I am talking to but I think it would violate the rules of the forum.

MLK threw aside proper etiquette, that’s why people listened to him.

HE DIDN’T PROTEST THE ANTHEM!!! Please get it through your head that I am not saying that one shouldn’t violate any proper etiquette, just the the etiquette in regards to the flag an anthem.

EDIT: And everybody already knows that you have a “right” to do whatever you fucking want so stop reminding us. We get it. We aren’t dumb. We know.

I will do whatever the fuck I want! and the reason I do remind you that is that it seems as though you don’t act like it sometimes.

Oh my god, why are you not able to comprehend that not liking something doesn’t mean that I believe you don’t have the right? I’m just tired of reading that shit all the goddamn time.

There is a lot of shit I am tired of reading.

EDIT: I remember a long time ago that you claimed to be inspired by the work of MLK. I don’t see how that’s possible given how opposed to offending the status quo you are. MLK wouldn’t have accomplished anything if he’d been too scared to offend blind patriots that can’t handle anything that might vaguely disrespect the country.

That I am shows that there is a difference between ruffling feathers and disrespecting the anthem. I don’t recall MLK ever disrespecting the anthem.

It actually shows your ignorance of history and the man you respect. Here’s what MLK had to say about folks like you: " I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” " - Letter from the Birmingham Jail, 1963.

You are incorrect, I am not more devoted to order than justice.

In this case you are. It’s actually a little worse. You’re more devoted to etiquette than to justice.

wrong again.

Nope, I’m right. If you’re going to just make claims without evidence then I’ll do it too.

The only proper response to this would be a violation of the forum rules. I will just simply say, that you don’t know me.

Had MLK “disrespected the anthem” would you still like him?

Not as much as I do, but I still would have respected all he achieved.

What a joke. If he had kneeled during the anthem then you would respect him less? Well, that’s just disgusting.

Read this article: https://abcnews.go.com/US/veterans-knee-support-national-anthem-protests/story?id=50075609

How much respect have you lost for those veterans?

A tiny bit. But I still have great respect for what they did for this country. I guess veterans, of all people, have more a right to do this than people like Kapaernick who just play football.

Disgusting. You losing any amount of respect for veterans because they aren’t offended by Kaepernick is fucking disgusting. Don’t you dare throw tragic pictures of grieving families at me, implying that I don’t care about our veterans

I didn’t say you didn’t care about Veterans. I posted those pics to show that the flag is more than a piece of cloth.

when it’s actually you that’s putting a piece of cloth above the people that, unlike you, actually fucking give a shit about this country and what it stands for.

That is not what I did.

Kaepernick, and the veterans that stand by him, are greater patriots than you could ever hope to be. Your position on this is so un-American that it makes me livid and nauseous.

1. I feel you are very close to a personally attacking in this post.

2. What about the Veterans that are offended by his kneeling?

Warbler said:

dahmage said:

Mrebo said:

I still don’t care about the NFL or Nike.

I like Warb’s patriotism.

What patriotism is on display?

I thought it was patriotic to respect the Anthem. I also thought it was patriotic to agree that kneeling during the Anthem while disrespectful, is protected speech.

Nope, that’s nationalistic not patriotic.

If I were really nationalistic, I’d want protesting during the Anthem to be outlawed. But I don’t.

Since when is that a prerequisite for nationalism?

Ok, you tell me the difference between nationalism and patriotism.

DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

DominicCobb said:

What I’ll never understand about this debate is that kneeling is literally a form of respect.

Not when it is done during the Nation Anthem which is a clear violation of the proper protocol.

Proper protocol my ass. The same people complaining the loudest are the ones who have the American flag on their underwear.

I don’t have the flag on my underwear.

Following protocol and showing respect aren’t necessarily the same thing.

When the rules say you should stand at attention and you kneel, I have having hard time seeing how that is not disrespectful.

Warbler said:

DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

DominicCobb said:

What I’ll never understand about this debate is that kneeling is literally a form of respect.

Not when it is done during the Nation Anthem which is a clear violation of the proper protocol.

Proper protocol my ass. The same people complaining the loudest are the ones who have the American flag on their underwear.

I don’t have the flag on my underwear.

I never said you did. I’m sure you follow the rules to the letter.

Following protocol and showing respect aren’t necessarily the same thing.

When the rules say you should stand at attention and you kneel, I have having hard time seeing how that is not disrespectful.

What you described is them being disrespectful to the rules. Not disrespectful to the flag/what it stands for (not that I’d have a problem if they did, but they aren’t so). Unless you think it stands for “the rules”…

Anyway following the rules has no direct correlation with actual respect. They’re on different planes.

DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

DominicCobb said:

What I’ll never understand about this debate is that kneeling is literally a form of respect.

Not when it is done during the Nation Anthem which is a clear violation of the proper protocol.

Proper protocol my ass. The same people complaining the loudest are the ones who have the American flag on their underwear.

I don’t have the flag on my underwear.

I never said you did. I’m sure you follow the rules to the letter.

Following protocol and showing respect aren’t necessarily the same thing.

When the rules say you should stand at attention and you kneel, I have having hard time seeing how that is not disrespectful.

What you described is them being disrespectful to the rules. Not disrespectful to the flag/what it stands for (not that I’d have a problem if they did, but they aren’t so). Unless you think it stands for “the rules”…

Anyway following the rules has no direct correlation with actual respect. They’re on different planes.

If you can’t see that kneeling when it is clear you are supposed to stand is disrespectful, that protesting the Nation Anthem is disrespectful, I don’t know what else to say to you.

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

chyron8472 said:

Personally, I think boycotting Nike is misdirected outrage, and that this outrage is just a fad. So many consumer boycotts come and go, and next year no one will remember this one. Being angry at Nike is just the recent popular thing to do.

Well I know it won’t do any good, but I won’t be buying anything from them. It is a matter of principle for me. I have as just as much to protest via boycott as those that protest via disrespecting the Anthem.

Honestly I think you’re the one disrespecting the country. You’re one of these people that’s opposed to any kind of protest that ruffles people’s feathers.

ruffing feathers is one thing, disrespecting the country is another.

If you don’t know why the ideals of America are worth of respect, I don’t know what to tell you.

I actually do respect the ideals of America. I think that the flag worship you and President Trump demand is antithetical to those ideals.

I don’t worship the flag, I respect it.

That’s sad. It’s a piece of cloth.

It is more than a piece of cloth

Don’t give me that. My family is full of veterans. A member of my immediately family was actually shot multiple times in the service, and guess what, he’s in support of the NFL players.

I thank all the veterans in your family for their service.

Bullshit, you respect at least some of them less. You admitted that.

I said tiny bit less, but I still respect them a lot.

If you think that all that death and sacrifice happens for the flag, then that’s fucking sad. I hope that our people are dying for something other than “the flag”.

The flag is a symbol of what the death and sacrifice is for.

That’s not all it’s a symbol for. That’s not even what it’s primarily a symbol for.

And yet you said it was just a piece of cloth.

What’s wrong with disrespecting the country? Why is it automatically worthy of respect no matter what?

I’ve also not once heard your justification for how this is disrespecting the anthem or why that’s even a bad thing, but I know you’ll never bother to actually explain that so I’ll stop asking.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/301

(a)Designation.—
The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.

(b)Conduct During Playing.—During a rendition of the national anthem—

(1) when the flag is displayed—

(A) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note;

(B) members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for individuals in uniform; and

(C) all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and

(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.

I don’t care about any of this arbitrary bullshit. This has nothing to do with what I asked.

It has everything to do with what you asked. What I posted is the proper etiquette during the National Anthem. You asked how kneeling during the anthem is disrespectful. It is disrespectful because it violates the proper etiquette above. You are supposed to stand at attention.

I don’t care about the prescribed etiquette. Why is it bad to disregard that?

Because it is. There is proper etiquette and improper etiquette. Kneeling is improper. Also I don’t think the playing of the anthem is a time appropriate for political speech.

Even if it is disrespectful, which I don’t grant, why is it bad to be disrespectful when you’re addressing horrifying issues?

There are other ways to address horrifying issues.

It definitely wouldn’t have gotten as much attention.

Oh I think they could have gotten alot of attention by other methods. One would have to refuse to talk about the game in press conferences and instead talk about police brutality. The players may have gotten fined for this by the NFL, but that would be worth it to them, right? They also could have worn “Black Lives Matter” stickers and what not on their uniforms, again it would risk a fine but it would be worth it to them, right? They could have used they influence and wealth to put together a peaceful march on Washington, like MLK did. There are all sorts of things they could have done.

I know you lean towards the Mike the Cop, “Innocent people don’t run” line of reasoning where it’s acceptable for cops to shoot unarmed people to death so you probably wouldn’t have appreciated any protest against these cops.

You don’t will never understand what I think about these shootings because you won’t take the time to calmly, logically, rationally and fairly go over them, review the facts, and get the story from BOTH side. Instead you automatically assume the police are guilty

Not true. I do go over the facts.

Yeah, I noticed that when you refused to watch videos of an actual cop talking about a couple of shootings.

I did watch them.

If needed, I can go back and get quotes of you saying that you weren’t going to watch them.

You can’t deny that this was effective.

Was it? Has it stopped police shootings yet?

It got attention.

attention does equal effective.

missing capitalization and words does equal effective grammar.

ha ha.

You have to get in people’s faces and get their attention to make change.

And here I thought logically reasoning was the way to go.

Most people don’t listen to logical reasoning. I’m experiencing someone who’s unwilling to do that right now.

It is interesting that I am experiencing the same thing.

In your alternate reality you are.

Kaepernick wasn’t doing anything abrasive,

I guess you think he should have given the middle finger during the anthem.

He could have. He might as well have given how people like you are reacting to him.

*sigh* pathetic.

Not as pathetic as using the “I know you are but what am I?” comeback.

Is that what did?

and that’s why ultimately this protest won’t be the one that finally pushes this country towards holding its police accountable.

But I thought you said above that “You can’t deny that this was effective”. Which is it?

It was effective at getting attention. Definitely more effective than BLM stickers would’ve been.

I mentioned more than just stickers. There are probably ideas of things they can do that I can’t even think of.

What if you don’t want to stand for the anthem? I don’t want to. Should I do it anyway?

No one can force you to stand for it if you don’t want to. No one should force you to stand for it. But I do find it disrespect for you to not stand.

Name me one person who achieved any political change by operating totally within what society deems proper etiquette.

I can’t but I can name you one that achieved much more than Kapaernick without protesting during the Anthem: MLK.

You are approaching this so simplistically that I honestly feel like I’m talking to an eight-year-old,

I’d tell you what I honestly feel like I am talking to but I think it would violate the rules of the forum.

Just use the “R-word”. You know you want to.

No, I wasn’t thinking of any word starting with the letter R.

MLK threw aside proper etiquette, that’s why people listened to him.

HE DIDN’T PROTEST THE ANTHEM!!! Please get it through your head that I am not saying that one shouldn’t violate any proper etiquette, just the the etiquette in regards to the flag an anthem.

I know. That’s ridiculous. What about Jehovah’s Witnesses? You must really hate them.

What about them would I hate? Do they refuse to stand for the anthem or something?

Had MLK “disrespected the anthem” would you still like him?

Not as much as I do, but I still would have respected all he achieved.

What a joke. If he had kneeled during the anthem then you would respect him less? Well, that’s just disgusting.

Read this article: https://abcnews.go.com/US/veterans-knee-support-national-anthem-protests/story?id=50075609

How much respect have you lost for those veterans?

A tiny bit. But I still have great respect for what they did for this country. I guess veterans, of all people, have more a right to do this than people like Kapaernick who just play football.

Disgusting. You losing any amount of respect for veterans because they aren’t offended by Kaepernick is fucking disgusting. Don’t you dare throw tragic pictures of grieving families at me, implying that I don’t care about our veterans

I didn’t say you didn’t care about Veterans. I posted those pics to show that the flag is more than a piece of cloth.

It depends on the context. Sometimes it can transcend being just a cloth, like in those instances. When it’s waving at a football game where people are stuffing their faces with hotdogs and drinking alcohol and waiting to watch people give each other brain damage, then yes, it really is just a piece of cloth.

I don’t think the flag is ever just a piece of cloth. Especially when it is flying on flag pole.

when it’s actually you that’s putting a piece of cloth above the people that, unlike you, actually fucking give a shit about this country and what it stands for.

That is not what I did.

That’s exactly what you did. You lost respect for the veterans and the dead soldiers that you previously threw in front of you like a human shield when you realized that they don’t all follow your blind nationalism.

I lost a tiny bit of respect for those that think it is ok to kneel during the National Anthem. It does not mean I don’t respect them. I do respect them, a lot. And I do not put a piece cloth over the lives of those that have fought for this country.

Kaepernick, and the veterans that stand by him, are greater patriots than you could ever hope to be. Your position on this is so un-American that it makes me livid and nauseous.

1. I feel you are very close to a personally attacking in this post.

Attacking your faux patriotism presumably isn’t a bannable offense. You’ve been implying and threatening me with personal attacks repeatedly so I don’t see what your problem is.

I have not threatened you with anything, I merely said I couldn’t reply to certain things without violating the rules of the forum.

Grow up. Stop begging for people to intervene on your behalf.

This forum has rules and in my opinion you are close to violating them.

2. What about the Veterans that are offended by his kneeling?

What about them? That’s their business.

Oh, so when veterans disagree with you, they don’t matter, its just their business. I see.

Veterans aren’t a monolith. I think it’s sad that they have wedded their identity to the ritual of the anthem rather than to the real ideals of this country.

This proofs you don’t get it and never will.

You do realize that it was a veteran that encouraged Kaepernick to kneel so as to respect the veterans and the dead while still making a point, don’t you?

He did that because Kaepernick was sitting on the bench, which is even worse. I will say again not every veteran thinks it is ok to kneel during the Anthem.

Warbler said:

dahmage said:

Mrebo said:

I still don’t care about the NFL or Nike.

I like Warb’s patriotism.

What patriotism is on display?

I thought it was patriotic to respect the Anthem. I also thought it was patriotic to agree that kneeling during the Anthem while disrespectful, is protected speech.

Nope, that’s nationalistic not patriotic.

If I were really nationalistic, I’d want protesting during the Anthem to be outlawed. But I don’t.

Since when is that a prerequisite for nationalism?

Ok, you tell me the difference between nationalism and patriotism.

In this case nationalism is basically an extreme, embarrassing form of patriotism. I’d call it blind pride in a country. In other contexts nationalism means different things.

Whatever. I am done talking about this with you. Talking and debating with you an aggravating, frustrating, and all around unpleasant experience and I am tired of you vitriol and insults and hatred and false judgments about me, a person you do not know. This is finished. And you harass me to try to get me to continue this conversation with you, as you have tried to do in the past, I will go to the moderators. I ask that you leave me alone.

Warbler said:

DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

DominicCobb said:

What I’ll never understand about this debate is that kneeling is literally a form of respect.

Not when it is done during the Nation Anthem which is a clear violation of the proper protocol.

Proper protocol my ass. The same people complaining the loudest are the ones who have the American flag on their underwear.

I don’t have the flag on my underwear.

I never said you did. I’m sure you follow the rules to the letter.

Following protocol and showing respect aren’t necessarily the same thing.

When the rules say you should stand at attention and you kneel, I have having hard time seeing how that is not disrespectful.

What you described is them being disrespectful to the rules. Not disrespectful to the flag/what it stands for (not that I’d have a problem if they did, but they aren’t so). Unless you think it stands for “the rules”…

Anyway following the rules has no direct correlation with actual respect. They’re on different planes.

If you can’t see that kneeling when it is clear you are supposed to stand is disrespectful, that protesting the Nation Anthem is disrespectful, I don’t know what else to say to you.

They’re not protesting the anthem.