The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 164

Collipso said:

It really seemed like Finn was more than able to destroy the cannon to me. He was still going relatively fast in the cannon’s direction, while all the others turned back, which it in itself is a plot hole (how did Rose even get to him?) and something I noticed upon first viewing.

The cannon’s beam appeared to slow down anything in it’s path - and was also stripping away parts of the ski-speeder (including the ski-speeder’s guns).

Dialogue from the Crait battle… (taken from another site - so for whatever it’s worth on accuracy)

Rose (to Finn): Hey! Engage your mono-ski.
Poe: All right, listen up - I don’t like these rust buckets and I don’t like our odds (‘What the hell?!’ - as part of the floor falls off). Just keep it tight and don’t get too close until they roll that cannon out front.
Poe: All right - Ground Forces - lay down some fire!

Hux: Thiteen incoming light craft. Shall we hold until we clear them?
Ren: No… the Resistance is in that mine. Push through.

(Tie Fighters enter the fray)

Poe: Fighters! Break off! We gotta hold them until they pull up that cannon!

(The Falcon enters the battle)

Ren: Blow that piece of junk out of the sky!
Hux: All fighters! (after the Falcon)

Rey: Chewie, peel off from the battle - draw them away from the speeders.

(The Falcon leads away the Tie Fighters)

Poe: She drew them off - all of them.
Finn: They hate that ship!

Rose: There it is. That is a big gun…
Finn: Okay. It’s heavily armoured - our only shot is right down the throat.
Finn: The cannon is opening (emitting it’s beam) - this is our chance.
Kylo: All fire on those speeders.
Hux: Concentrate all fire on the speeders!
Rebel on radio in base to Leia: We’re taking heavy losses.
Poe: They are picking us all off - we are not gonna make it.
Finn: Alright - it’s my final approach. Target in sight. Guns are hot.
Poe: No - pull her off.
Finn: What?!
Poe: The cannon is charged - it’s a suicide run. All craft pull away.
Finn: No! I’m almost there.
Poe: Retreat Finn! That’s an order.
(rest of craft break off - Finn stays on course)
Rose: (indecipherable) - its too late. Don’t do this.
Finn: No! I won’t let them win.
Rose: No, Finn - listen to Poe. We have to retreat.

The cannon’s beam start to hit the rebel base door.
Finns’ craft’s guns melt in the cannon’s beam.
Finn disengages the stabiliser and flies up level with to the cannon.
As he’s about to enter the cannon mouth Rose hits him from the side.

Finn: Rose! NO! (runs to Roses’ damaged speeder). Rose! Rose? Why would you do that? I was almost there. Why would you stop me?
Rose: I saved you, dummy. That’s how we’re going to win - not fighting what we hate, but saving what we love.

Cannon explodes the rebel base door.
Rose kisses Finn. Passes out shortly after.

Valheru_84 said:

Current discussions aside, I think this is a fantastic video on why many people can’t accept what they did to Luke’s character in TLJ:

https://youtu.be/c4tTSB_yH8k

That is a pretty good exegesis.

Anchorhead said:

Mrebo said:
…I’m not sure how much sense that makes either: let’s fly out on barely functional crafts with limited maneuverability to a bunch of AT-ATs and a big gun and hope it doesn’t fire until we are really close so we can shoot at it.

To quote Antiope in Wonder Woman “You expect the battle to be fair! A battle will never be fair!”

The rebels were using the ships they had left. It was either that or sit in the entrance to the cave, put a marshmallow on a stick, and yell incoming!

If they could have gone out on a Star Destroyer and blown a FO-sized hole in the ground, I suspect they would have.

Previously, Dominic assured us that the FO would have found a way in if Finn had destroyed the gun. Holding to that idea, it doesn’t make very much sense to expend lives and time delaying the FO’s entry instead of finding a way out. I know they were hoping allies would show up - really fast and with lots of firepower - so the question is how much longer would it take to destroy the door without the cannon.

This isn’t the kind of issue really important to me, but on reflection this was a bit like grabbing a butterknife to confront an armed burglar trying to break your door. Granted you might prefer to use a bazooka, but that’s neither here nor there.

Michael Ward said:

Hello, Collipso.

I did read a few dozen. It hadn’t got toxic at that point. Glad I quit while I was ahead.

There was even a spirited debate about Gamorrean Guards in ROTJ. Sometimes things get a little out of hand.

Collipso said:

I think in the end we all agreed Luke was choking them?

I’m sticking to “no,” because whatchya gonna do about it? 😛

Creox said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

ExNihilo said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Finn makes it, in a melted skimmer I can’t see how that’d do much.

And I meant there are other ways to blow open that big ass door, I’m sure.

It looked like just peripheries like the guns. Fuselage was intact just prior to Rose’s interception.
They are practically at the mouth of the cannon. I have trouble buying he wasn’t going to make it or he wasn’t going to do much damage.

I guess this really does come down to individual perception. I just didn’t see it the same way you did.

Well obviously the reaction says they could have made this clearer, as many people have misinterpreted the scene. I took it, when Poe called it off as a “suicide mission,” that it wasn’t worth it, and that’s all I needed to know and the rest could easily be assumed without being stated outright.

I don’t see what the contradiction is. Poe said it was a suicide mission…and it would have been. Says nothing about whether Finn could have accomplished the mission. That it could have been the like the Dreadnaught victory is what made Poe’s arc complete.

Whether Finn could have taken out the ram is not the point. Poe called off the mission because it wasn’t worth it, either way. That’s the point.

The back-and-forth concerned whether Finn could have made it. The point you’ve moved onto is a different point, one that basically negates your previous insistence that Finn wasn’t going to make it. I think you’re wrong on the previous point and right on this one.

I’m not sure I understand how that negates the previous point, or how I’ve even moved on from it. They are related points.

Whether Finn would have made it is a part of the larger conversation of “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?” But what’s actually important is that Poe determined it wasn’t worth it. From there the assumptions fall into place - to me, it looked like Finn wasn’t going to make it and even if he did, it wouldn’t have done anything. On the other side, even if Finn did make it and he did blow up the ram, then it still wouldn’t have been worth it because the First Order would just break in another way.

Whichever is actually the case doesn’t change the answers to “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?”, the answer to both of which is of course no.

The relation between the two points can be explored. The previous dialogue did not concern Poe’s arc. You’ve injected that into it now, which is totally fine, but it’s helpful when we can be clear to avoid misunderstandings.

So let’s consider the relation between (1) Finn flying into the weapon and (2) Poe calling off the mission.

If Finn flew into the weapon, that doesn’t negate Poe’s arc. It arguably makes it stronger, with Poe not only calling off the mission but feeling the sting of loss when a commander is disobeyed. If Finn is successful, then all the better when Poe says it wasn’t worth it.

Or we can imagine that it is Poe who rams Finn. Poe acknowledges that Finn could have made it but “that’s how we’re gonna win. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love.” Followed, of course, by a kiss.

I never said Finn flying into the weapon would negate Poe’s arc. But the two things are connected. Poe understands suicide missions aren’t worth it. Finn doesn’t yet. Rose saving Finn is teaching him that lesson (“that’s how we’re gonna win…”).

I guess I’m not even sure what you’re trying to say.

The discussion was whether Finn could and should have destroyed the weapon. Then you backed into an argument on Poe’s arc. I said that I didn’t see any contradiction with what others were saying on the topic of Finn’s attempted sacrifice.

I said that your previous insistence that Finn was destined to fail was negated. Because Poe completed his arc no matter what Finn did.

Now you add another layer, seeming to suggest that there is a thematic parallel, and not that the two scenes are somehow dependent on each other, which is what I thought you were saying. Which is a pretty good argument; but you backed into it.

And I think my suggestions offer good alternative themes and lessons.

Back to the original discussion, Finn could totally have destroyed the battering ram, giving the rebels a chance to escape.

My take on that scene was that Finn was going to die before destroying the weapon…his speeder was falling apart rapidly and the beam was already brightening…signifying it was already too late.

I think Rian was showing us that Finn was ready to die for the cause…he had become “rebel scum” instead of just “scum”.

As a fictional movie with a nonsense weapon like the Starkiller, Finn could have lived or died. I read the scene that Finn was more brave and selfless than stupid, so I lean toward the possibility of living. In the end, it’s an academic obsessive fan debate anyway.

Michael Ward said:

Hello, I’m new here, and as much as I enjoy other peoples opinions, 164 pages of comments is just to much to catch up on! So I’ll just add my two cents.

The Luke/Rey/Kylo storyline, what I’ll call the “A” plot, had its moments. I thought it was a lot like The Force Awakens in that though it was often kind of stupid, it was still enjoyable.

The “B” plot with everyone else was terrible. This plot line was dumb. The characters were dumb (I really can’t get over the fact that Poe, Finn, and Rose got almost everyone killed!) The comedy was dumb except for a few good 3PO moments. But worst of all, I was bored most of time.

Everything I enjoyed was in the “A” plot, and even there I was disappointed by Luke’s character.

I put this one in 7th place out of 9 for the whole franchise.

Remind me of the 3PO moments?

Michael Ward said:

Mrebo said:

Remind me of the 3PO moments?

Seems like one was about the time that he was saying mutiny was against his programming, but I don’t remember the line. They’re were a couple of others. One might have been when Finn and Poe and Rose were discussing their plan. They were not hilarious, but mildly amusing and not cringe worthy like most. The audience laughed out loud at them which I think made me enjoy them more than if I’d been by myself. Most of the other jokes landed with a thud with the audience when I saw it.

That’s right, now I remember. I agree about the humor. Watched ANH tonight, appreciating the understated and well-incorporated humor.

Michael Ward said:

Mrebo said:

Remind me of the 3PO moments?

Seems like one was about the time that he was saying mutiny was against his programming, but I don’t remember the line. They’re were a couple of others. One might have been when Finn and Poe and Rose were discussing their plan. They were not hilarious, but mildly amusing and not cringe worthy like most. The audience laughed out loud at them which I think made me enjoy them more than if I’d been by myself. Most of the other jokes landed with a thud with the audience when I saw it.

Funny how everyone who dislikes the movie seems to have gone to a showing where the jokes weren’t laughed at. All the jokes (even the dumb ones) were huge hits with the audience both times I saw it.