The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 104

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

Given Mark Hammill believe Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.

I personally allways interpreted the scene as signifying Luke’s a darker character now, and more like his father than he might think. So, to me that allways was a case of Luke using a Force choke, but if Hamill or anyone else sees it differently, I suppose only George Lucas has the answer. The ROTJ screenplay doesn’t speak of a Force choke, so you may very well be right.

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

When was this lightsabre fight?

In TFA.

You are referring to the sabre fight vs Ren in TFA - where he was already injured from Chewbacca’s powerful crossbow shot, was bleeding from it, also taking a hit from his sabre fight with Finn, and also felt conflicted & weak over just killing his father? In a fight in which the aim was not to kill Rey - but to bring her to Snoke… a fight in which he actually offered to be her teacher… and in which Rey was on the backfoot for nearly all of it before ‘letting the force in’…

Rey didn’t win the lightsabre fight at all… even after ‘letting the force in’ as it were - though she had gained the upper hand by scarring him & put him on his arse - yet the fight was broken up by the planet coming apart…

Um, she did win the fight. The only reason he survived or wasn’t taken prisoner is because of the planet coming apart.

No, he’s just on his arse. There was no winner due to the planet coming apart.

 

She may well be special and strong with the force - Snoke’s on-screen ascertain to Rey that… ‘So much strength. Darkness rises and light to meet it’ & ‘I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger that the equal in the light would rise’ (and his mistaken assumption that was Luke - not Rey) is a statement of this. That you choose to ignore this as an explanation is on you.

As I said, I buy that explanation because this thing of the equal of the light rising wasn’t shown or referred to in any of the other movies.

Things evolve and change over the course of these films - that they aren’t mentioned or shown previously does not negate them. That it is mentioned on-screen - whether you agree, dislike, or ‘buy’ it - does not negate it.

If you want to ignore an explanation then go ahead and ignore it - but don’t then state there wasn’t one / or that it then ‘begs for an explanation’.

Well if the explanation is argued to make no sense in the context of what came before or to be underdeveloped, than it does negate the explanation in the eyes of the beholder. That’s what we’re debating here I think.

The ‘balance’ in the force is a theme (and it’s interpretation) that has run through the films. That light rises to meet darkness or darkness rises to meet the light is hardly anything new in TLJ - or underdeveloped previously.

Not really IMO. Lucas’ interpretation of balance is, that the Sith are like a cancer and bring the Force out of balance, and their destruction will restore balance. I never really liked this, and felt is was pretty vague, but that still doesn’t present a precedent for just anybody instantly getting Jedi powers, because there’s a dark side Force user running loose in the galaxy in my view.

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

I’m sorry too.

Nice one!

It’s so hard to put a finger on when Star Wars appears ridiculous or breaks its own supposed rules. Obviously it’s in the eye of the beholder.

I quite liked Rey’s power-levels in TFA because they provided something of a contrast to the Luke experience. Luke was basically a nice suburban kid who was introduced to his Jedi heritage (and potential) in a very linear way. Given that the saga overall has established that certain folks have a knack for this stuff (not thrilled with Midichlorians but anyway…) I love the idea of a potential Jedi honing their abilities completely under the duress of the school of hard knocks. Rey learns to fight and to sense danger because it’s basically do or die. She learns skills like languages and mechanics because she needs every advantage. It’s an interesting idea.

I think my limit in TLJ was the rocks scene. Maybe I need another viewing (I don’t recall any build-up or implied effort, but I could be completely wrong here!) but this just seemed to say “yep, Rey can do anything folks”. It’s hard NOT to consider the precedent set by the previous films on this one. Fighting skills are one thing - it’s easy to imagine Luke gaining such skills had he gone through Rey-like experiences in life. But she never needed to levitate stuff on Jakku. Yoda’s lifting Luke’s X-wing in the swamp was clearly a demonstration of mastery - a kind of faraway point for Luke to aspire to in some distant future if he really knuckled down and applied some serious discipline. Rey defies all this and simply…does it. In the scene she looks as surprised as I was!

The new movies seem to be confused about how they want to depict the Force. They’re edging away from the ‘chosen one’ crap of the Midichlorian-era and returning to the ‘energy field’ we all know and love, yet they also seem to be saying that Force powers are springing up everywhere for no other reason than the Force itself likes to balance itself vicariously through random folks.

Like I said, I’m due another viewing of TLJ, but I’m not sure how I feel about all of this. Fun to discuss though!

Shopping Maul said:

It’s so hard to put a finger on when Star Wars appears ridiculous or breaks its own supposed rules. Obviously it’s in the eye of the beholder.

I quite liked Rey’s power-levels in TFA because they provided something of a contrast to the Luke experience. Luke was basically a nice suburban kid who was introduced to his Jedi heritage (and potential) in a very linear way. Given that the saga overall has established that certain folks have a knack for this stuff (not thrilled with Midichlorians but anyway…) I love the idea of a potential Jedi honing their abilities completely under the duress of the school of hard knocks. Rey learns to fight and to sense danger because it’s basically do or die. She learns skills like languages and mechanics because she needs every advantage. It’s an interesting idea.

I think my limit in TLJ was the rocks scene. Maybe I need another viewing (I don’t recall any build-up or implied effort, but I could be completely wrong here!) but this just seemed to say “yep, Rey can do anything folks”. It’s hard NOT to consider the precedent set by the previous films on this one. Fighting skills are one thing - it’s easy to imagine Luke gaining such skills had he gone through Rey-like experiences in life. But she never needed to levitate stuff on Jakku. Yoda’s lifting Luke’s X-wing in the swamp was clearly a demonstration of mastery - a kind of faraway point for Luke to aspire to in some distant future if he really knuckled down and applied some serious discipline. Rey defies all this and simply…does it. In the scene she looks as surprised as I was!

The new movies seem to be confused about how they want to depict the Force. They’re edging away from the ‘chosen one’ crap of the Midichlorian-era and returning to the ‘energy field’ we all know and love, yet they also seem to be saying that Force powers are springing up everywhere for no other reason than the Force itself likes to balance itself vicariously through random folks.

Like I said, I’m due another viewing of TLJ, but I’m not sure how I feel about all of this. Fun to discuss though!

Yep, this perfectly encapsulates my feelings about Rey.

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

The explanation is chewie had just shot kylo ren with his crossbow and he was quite injured. You can even see blood falling out of his suit in several shots.

Sorry, I don’t buy it. Yeah he was injured, but it was still someone trained against someone untrained.

Obviously the only way to test this is for you to go get trained in the Force, dahmaged will shoot you in the side, and then you and I will have a lightsaber fight. Let’s do this.

^ silly.

Let me know when you come up with a better way to prove you’re right and I’m wrong about that scene.

Let me know when lightsabers and the force become real and then we’ll see.

“That is why you fail.”

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

Given Mark Hammill believes Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.

Mark Hammill’s opinions are valid and Daisy Ridley’s aren’t.

Sure.

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

Given Mark Hammill believes Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.

Mark Hammill’s opinions are valid and Daisy Ridley’s aren’t.

Sure.

Must have missed where he said that.

http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1150916

TV’s Frink said:

The issue is unequal treatment of equal male and female characters.

But are they (Rey and Luke, I assume) the same? I hardly think so.

Handman said:

TV’s Frink said:

The issue is unequal treatment of equal male and female characters.

But are they (Rey and Luke, I assume) the same? I hardly think so.

At the risk of continuing a debate that I have to keep pointing out has been debated endlessly on this site for two years now, I never said they’re the same at all. And I have no interest in whatever that video is trying to say.

I personally never thought Luke used the Force in Episode IV and never thought Anakin used the Force in Episode I. I think I might be the only one to think this way on this site.

So because of this, I think Rey being as powerful as she was in TFA was absurd. And it continues through TLJ.

TFA:

• mind trick out of her ***
• beating Kylo Ren’s force pull
• beating Kylo Ren period.

TLJ:

• it bothered me a little bit how she was so instantly connected to the force in the scene where Luke explains it to her, but at the same time I think it’s not a valid complaint.
• she beats Luke
• she kicks everyone’s *** in the throne room for no reason
• she can lift 10x more rocks than Luke even after Luke had several training sessions and Luke had an extremely high potential to be powerful with the force too.

Edit: also, in-universe Star Wars always seemed to me like a very equal place in terms of sexism. Neither men nor women have any duty or are viewed in a certain way simply because of the fact that they’re men/women. You see both as equals in all films.

But I still think women were severely misrepresented in the OT, and in the PT, to lesser extent.

Handman said:

TV’s Frink said:

The issue is unequal treatment of equal male and female characters.

But are they (Rey and Luke, I assume) the same? I hardly think so.

Me neither, in fact it’s the differences between how the two characters progress, that are at the heart of the discussion.

Collipso said:

I personally never thought Luke used the Force in Episode IV and never thought Anakin used the Force in Episode I. I think I might be the only one to think this way on this site.

Qui-Gon explicitly contradicts that in TPM.

Luke is more up for debate but people are using the fact that he “got some training before blowing up the Death Star” as an argument against Rey.

So yeah, if you aren’t the only one, you’re definitely close to the only one.

JEDIT: Also what Mielr says below. Neither case is really up for debate.

Mielr said:

DrDre said:

I personally allways interpreted the scene as signifying Luke’s a darker character now, and more like his father than he might think. So, to me that allways was a case of Luke using a Force choke, but if Hamill or anyone else sees it differently, I suppose only George Lucas has the answer. The ROTJ screenplay doesn’t speak of a Force choke, so you may very well be right.

Which scene are you referring to?

ROTJ at Jabba’s palace when Luke force chokes the pigmen to gain access.

There are a few people here who believe Luke was using a mind trick to make them go to sleep.

Which I’m incredulous at…though I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

Given Mark Hammill believes Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.

Mark Hammill’s opinions are valid and Daisy Ridley’s aren’t.

Sure.

Must have missed where he said that.

http://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1150916

You’re comparing two unlike comments about two different matters.

“An actors opinion of their character and the reviews they get is hardly the end all be all.”

If you’re going to insist this is not at odds with stating Mark Hammill’s opinion on the force choke is the end of the discussion, I have nothing more to say to you. Hard to get more obviously contradictory than those two statements.

oojason said:

Collipso said:

I personally never thought Luke used the Force in Episode IV and never thought Anakin used the Force in Episode I. I think I might be the only one to think this way on this site.

So because of this, I think Rey being as powerful as she was in TFA was absurd. And it continues through TLJ.

TFA:

• mind trick out of her ***
• beating Kylo Ren’s force pull
• beating Kylo Ren period.

TLJ:

• it bothered me a little bit how she was so instantly connected to the force in the scene where Luke explains it to her, but at the same time I think it’s not a valid complaint.
• she beats Luke
• she kicks everyone’s *** in the throne room for no reason
• she can lift 10x more rocks than Luke even after Luke had several training sessions and Luke had an extremely high potential to be powerful with the force too.

Aye, she really kicked Snoke’s arse in the throne room alright. She was that powerful if it wasn’t for the greed and lust for power of Ren that she’d be dead.

Well, I was talking about the guards.

lovelikewinter said:

With the rocks, Luke’s problem was lack of belief in himself. Rey might not have that issue.

Well of course, perfect beings don’t lack belief! 😉