The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 98

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

We don’t even know what he saw. It could have been so bad it was clear there was no saving Ben. Maybe it was a likely future. And he had a moment of weakness, and then he came through it. If you don’t think he can have a one second lapse in judgement, then yes, you think he should be perfect.

He says he saw the destruction of everything he knew and loved. After 25 years of building and rebuilding the Jedi and the New Republic and reaching that utopia we all imagined happened after ROTJ, it’s easy to understand why he’d be so worried about it all being lost to the dark side once again. He saw killing Ben as a quick and easy solution to that potential disaster (and remember Ben wasn’t totally innocent at this point, he was already under the influence of Snoke so it wasn’t just a vision).

The quick and easy solution is obviously the way of the dark side though, but Luke will always have a bit of the dark side in him, the struggle isn’t just resisting it once and you’re all done. It’s a constant struggle, and in this moment he came just a little too close to not resisting it, and it cost him dearly. I find it a very compelling and human story for a character who should be very compelling and human and yes, imperfect.

Again ROTJ sets up Luke losing his cool by letting the viewer experience Luke’s struggles, as he witnesses his friends and allies getting killed. TLJ doesn’t do this. It doesn’t even try to show the threat of young Ben Solo, and how Luke came to fear this young boy. Had we witnessed Luke’s vision or had we been given some set up, where we see one of Luke’s student’s get hurt as Kylo gives in to the dark side, we might have better understood Luke’s reaction. However, the movie appears to be mostly interested in showing Luke’s failure in the face of some scary vision, rather than a proper setup.

The fact of the matter is, the story of this film is not about Why Luke Almost Killed Ben. That’s just what happened long ago that put Luke in the state he is now.

Yes, but considering our history with the character of Luke, and the enormous effect this bit of history has on the development of both Luke and Ben Solo, I think the movie owed us a bit more than one itty bitty scene. If I had to choose between seeing a pointless fight between Finn and Phasma, or a proper setup, further character development, and motivation for Luke and Ben Solo, I would definitely choose the latter.

First of all, I think a vision inside of a flashback would have been a little weird. Second, we see what Ben is capable of on the dark side in the films themselves. We see him burn down Luke’s temple, we see him ally with the First Order, we see him burn down the Jakku village, kill Lor San Tekka, kill Han, etc. We know the terrible power of Kylo Ren. When Luke says he sees that power, I think we get the picture well enough.

I think seeing the vision would have helped, but the vision alone is not enough. Luke needs more motivation in my view, like one of his students getting hurt, something real and tangible, not just a Force vision, which a trained Jedi would know is not set in stone. Luke needs to be emotionally compromised to do what he did in Ben’s bedroom. If we had witnessed Ben hurting a fellow student, and Luke’s anxiety over this, the scene in Ben’s bedroom would have worked much better.

As it is now to me it’s like having three films of the good Jedi Anakin Skywalker, and then have him appear as Darth Vader in the next film, with Vader telling us in a 30 sec flashback how Palpatine seduced him, and o yeah he fell into some lava, which explains his appearance in this new trilogy. I know, I’m exaggerating, but you get my point. It’s too condensed.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

We don’t even know what he saw. It could have been so bad it was clear there was no saving Ben. Maybe it was a likely future. And he had a moment of weakness, and then he came through it. If you don’t think he can have a one second lapse in judgement, then yes, you think he should be perfect.

He says he saw the destruction of everything he knew and loved. After 25 years of building and rebuilding the Jedi and the New Republic and reaching that utopia we all imagined happened after ROTJ, it’s easy to understand why he’d be so worried about it all being lost to the dark side once again. He saw killing Ben as a quick and easy solution to that potential disaster (and remember Ben wasn’t totally innocent at this point, he was already under the influence of Snoke so it wasn’t just a vision).

The quick and easy solution is obviously the way of the dark side though, but Luke will always have a bit of the dark side in him, the struggle isn’t just resisting it once and you’re all done. It’s a constant struggle, and in this moment he came just a little too close to not resisting it, and it cost him dearly. I find it a very compelling and human story for a character who should be very compelling and human and yes, imperfect.

Again ROTJ sets up Luke losing his cool by letting the viewer experience Luke’s struggles, as he witnesses his friends and allies getting killed. TLJ doesn’t do this. It doesn’t even try to show the threat of young Ben Solo, and how Luke came to fear this young boy. Had we witnessed Luke’s vision or had we been given some set up, where we see one of Luke’s student’s get hurt as Kylo gives in to the dark side, we might have better understood Luke’s reaction. However, the movie appears to be mostly interested in showing Luke’s failure in the face of some scary vision, rather than a proper setup.

The fact of the matter is, the story of this film is not about Why Luke Almost Killed Ben. That’s just what happened long ago that put Luke in the state he is now.

Yes, but considering our history with the character of Luke, and the enormous effect this bit of history has on the development of both Luke and Ben Solo, I think the movie owed us a bit more than one itty bitty scene. If I had to choose between seeing a pointless fight between Finn and Phasma, or a proper setup, further character development, and motivation for Luke and Ben Solo, I would definitely choose the latter.

First of all, I think a vision inside of a flashback would have been a little weird. Second, we see what Ben is capable of on the dark side in the films themselves. We see him burn down Luke’s temple, we see him ally with the First Order, we see him burn down the Jakku village, kill Lor San Tekka, kill Han, etc. We know the terrible power of Kylo Ren. When Luke says he sees that power, I think we get the picture well enough.

I think seeing the vision would have helped, but the vision alone is not enough. Luke needs more motivation in my view, like one of his students getting hurt, something real and tangible.

As it is now to me it’s like having three films of the good Jedi Anakin Skywalker, and then have him appear as Darth Vader in the next film, with Obi-Wan telling us in a 30 sec flashback how Palpatine seduced Anakin, and o yeah he fell into some lava, which explains his appearance in this new trilogy. I know, I’m exaggerating, but you get my point. It’s too condensed.

I don’t think that’s a good comparison at all, as we never see Ben Solo before we see Kylo Ren. And if you mean to compare Anakin to Luke, the differences are so great there as to not even be worth describing.

I’ve said before that I see (and appreciate) that the approach to the ST was to treat it like the OT, where it feels like we’ve missed a couple of episodes of the story. In the OT, we start with episode IV which allows for some history to happen off screen with these characters before the events of the film, some of which will become relevant in surprising ways as the series progresses. The PT obviously torpedoes this by actually showing those episodes. The ST tries to invite back in that kind of mystery and ambiguity, even though technically we’ve seen all the previous episodes, once again there are things we don’t know. And I really like that about it, even though I get why this approach has turned people off - because TFA doesn’t really function as a proper sequel to ROTJ because of this, and I think people were expecting it to and got disappointed.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

We don’t even know what he saw. It could have been so bad it was clear there was no saving Ben. Maybe it was a likely future. And he had a moment of weakness, and then he came through it. If you don’t think he can have a one second lapse in judgement, then yes, you think he should be perfect.

He says he saw the destruction of everything he knew and loved. After 25 years of building and rebuilding the Jedi and the New Republic and reaching that utopia we all imagined happened after ROTJ, it’s easy to understand why he’d be so worried about it all being lost to the dark side once again. He saw killing Ben as a quick and easy solution to that potential disaster (and remember Ben wasn’t totally innocent at this point, he was already under the influence of Snoke so it wasn’t just a vision).

The quick and easy solution is obviously the way of the dark side though, but Luke will always have a bit of the dark side in him, the struggle isn’t just resisting it once and you’re all done. It’s a constant struggle, and in this moment he came just a little too close to not resisting it, and it cost him dearly. I find it a very compelling and human story for a character who should be very compelling and human and yes, imperfect.

Again ROTJ sets up Luke losing his cool by letting the viewer experience Luke’s struggles, as he witnesses his friends and allies getting killed. TLJ doesn’t do this. It doesn’t even try to show the threat of young Ben Solo, and how Luke came to fear this young boy. Had we witnessed Luke’s vision or had we been given some set up, where we see one of Luke’s student’s get hurt as Kylo gives in to the dark side, we might have better understood Luke’s reaction. However, the movie appears to be mostly interested in showing Luke’s failure in the face of some scary vision, rather than a proper setup.

The fact of the matter is, the story of this film is not about Why Luke Almost Killed Ben. That’s just what happened long ago that put Luke in the state he is now.

Yes, but considering our history with the character of Luke, and the enormous effect this bit of history has on the development of both Luke and Ben Solo, I think the movie owed us a bit more than one itty bitty scene. If I had to choose between seeing a pointless fight between Finn and Phasma, or a proper setup, further character development, and motivation for Luke and Ben Solo, I would definitely choose the latter.

First of all, I think a vision inside of a flashback would have been a little weird. Second, we see what Ben is capable of on the dark side in the films themselves. We see him burn down Luke’s temple, we see him ally with the First Order, we see him burn down the Jakku village, kill Lor San Tekka, kill Han, etc. We know the terrible power of Kylo Ren. When Luke says he sees that power, I think we get the picture well enough.

I think seeing the vision would have helped, but the vision alone is not enough. Luke needs more motivation in my view, like one of his students getting hurt, something real and tangible.

As it is now to me it’s like having three films of the good Jedi Anakin Skywalker, and then have him appear as Darth Vader in the next film, with Obi-Wan telling us in a 30 sec flashback how Palpatine seduced Anakin, and o yeah he fell into some lava, which explains his appearance in this new trilogy. I know, I’m exaggerating, but you get my point. It’s too condensed.

I don’t think that’s a good comparison at all, as we never see Ben Solo before we see Kylo Ren.

It’s not a comparison with Ben Solo. It’s a comparison with Luke, who after three films of being the hero, has now become a completely different character, abandoning his friends, the galaxy, and his principles, with only a single 30 sec flashback explaining the transition. This is like good Anakin in the PT instantly becoming Darth Vader in the OT with only a 30 sec flashback halfway through ANH explaining the transition.

I think the need to tell vs. show comes down to what matters to the story. Which matters more, what came before or what is happening now? The dialog satisfied me. Luke saw a darkness that scared him and instinctively drew and ignited his lightsaber. The fear passed, reason returned, but the damaged had been done it was the final straw that broke Ben Solo and turned him into Kylo Ren. Leia and Han sending Ben off to what amounts to boarding school with his uncle didn’t turn out well. The reasons for the past actions are not as important as how the characters react and develop in the current story. Luke is now a supporting role, not a starring role. How this relates to Rey and Kylo is the story at hand and we are given enough to justify the current state of affairs. Luke was always a bit petulant and his reaction to the events at his new Jedi temple are just an older version of the whiny farm boy who complained about not getting to go to Toche Station. Yes he has grown, but the trait remains, as it does with most people.

Rey has her own journey and that is what the story was focused on. She is trying to find her role and Luke did not help her at all, except for giving her access to the Jedi texts (which she stole… or scavanged?). Luke is now in the Ben Kenobi role.

I find it funny that we got so much more from Luke on how Kylo Ren fell than we got from Ben Kenobi back in 77. Have we asked the question of why Ben was in the Tatooine desert? He was a powerful Jedi Knight. What is he doing there? He tells us a great deal, but didn’t show us anything. And it turns out, as the story developed, that what he told Luke was a pack of lies. A carefully orchestrated story to get Luke involved and start his training. Why didn’t Ben fight to the death to try to defeat Vader and Palpatine. Luke is facing a much larger foe. Rather than 2 sith it is a whole band of dark knights and Snoke. The combination of scope of his failure plus the might of those massed against him and it makes sense. We don’t need more than what we were told.

yotsuya said:

I think the need to tell vs. show comes down to what matters to the story. Which matters more, what came before or what is happening now? The dialog satisfied me. Luke saw a darkness that scared him and instinctively drew and ignited his lightsaber. The fear passed, reason returned, but the damaged had been done it was the final straw that broke Ben Solo and turned him into Kylo Ren. Leia and Han sending Ben off to what amounts to boarding school with his uncle didn’t turn out well. The reasons for the past actions are not as important as how the characters react and develop in the current story. Luke is now a supporting role, not a starring role. How this relates to Rey and Kylo is the story at hand and we are given enough to justify the current state of affairs. Luke was always a bit petulant and his reaction to the events at his new Jedi temple are just an older version of the whiny farm boy who complained about not getting to go to Toche Station. Yes he has grown, but the trait remains, as it does with most people.

Rey has her own journey and that is what the story was focused on. She is trying to find her role and Luke did not help her at all, except for giving her access to the Jedi texts (which she stole… or scavanged?). Luke is now in the Ben Kenobi role.

I find it funny that we got so much more from Luke on how Kylo Ren fell than we got from Ben Kenobi back in 77. Have we asked the question of why Ben was in the Tatooine desert? He was a powerful Jedi Knight. What is he doing there? He tells us a great deal, but didn’t show us anything. And it turns out, as the story developed, that what he told Luke was a pack of lies. A carefully orchestrated story to get Luke involved and start his training. Why didn’t Ben fight to the death to try to defeat Vader and Palpatine. Luke is facing a much larger foe. Rather than 2 sith it is a whole band of dark knights and Snoke. The combination of scope of his failure plus the might of those massed against him and it makes sense. We don’t need more than what we were told.

The difference is that we grew to know and love the character of Luke in the OT before seeing him being this broken douchebag in TLJ. Add to this, that Obi-Wan is a far more sympathetic character in ANH than Luke is in TLJ.

The fact that so many people were turned off by Luke’s characterization to me is a good indication we needed more than we were told. I know, I did.

SilverWook said:

adywan said:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

dahmage said:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

DrDre said:
A single 30 second scene, which has Luke telling us about a bad vision is not a proper set up. Show not tell still remains the best technique.

This is really true for me. These new films are all tell, tell, tell. Oh look at this flashy thing. I think the prequels were criticized for having so much clutter on the screen visually. These Disney films deserve to be criticized for having too much clutter in the narrative. Pointless characters, pointless subplots. Just enough time to tell you a thing or two and then back to the gimmicks. /mad

So, i know that i am combining complaints from different people. but this is what i am hearing, and it is hard to separate the voices sometimes.

• the movie should have told us that
• no, it shouldn’t tell, it should show
• well, i didn’t see that, they should have told me

In movies you tell by showing.

Then please point me to where we see, in ESB, Luke’s vision of his friends being tortured? I’m pretty sure that whole scene is just done through narration. We don’t see anything at that point. And don’t say that we see things later, i’m talking about that point in time. I guess then we also needed to see what happened on Ord Mantell to be able to understand what was so bad that happened with the bounty hunter for Han to suddenly want to leave. Has the viewing audience become so dumbed down that they have to see everything on screen?

We did get the Ord Mantell incident in the old Marvel comic. 😉

Not to mention skinny Jabba and the incident with the stone-mites!

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

I think the need to tell vs. show comes down to what matters to the story. Which matters more, what came before or what is happening now? The dialog satisfied me. Luke saw a darkness that scared him and instinctively drew and ignited his lightsaber. The fear passed, reason returned, but the damaged had been done it was the final straw that broke Ben Solo and turned him into Kylo Ren. Leia and Han sending Ben off to what amounts to boarding school with his uncle didn’t turn out well. The reasons for the past actions are not as important as how the characters react and develop in the current story. Luke is now a supporting role, not a starring role. How this relates to Rey and Kylo is the story at hand and we are given enough to justify the current state of affairs. Luke was always a bit petulant and his reaction to the events at his new Jedi temple are just an older version of the whiny farm boy who complained about not getting to go to Toche Station. Yes he has grown, but the trait remains, as it does with most people.

Rey has her own journey and that is what the story was focused on. She is trying to find her role and Luke did not help her at all, except for giving her access to the Jedi texts (which she stole… or scavanged?). Luke is now in the Ben Kenobi role.

I find it funny that we got so much more from Luke on how Kylo Ren fell than we got from Ben Kenobi back in 77. Have we asked the question of why Ben was in the Tatooine desert? He was a powerful Jedi Knight. What is he doing there? He tells us a great deal, but didn’t show us anything. And it turns out, as the story developed, that what he told Luke was a pack of lies. A carefully orchestrated story to get Luke involved and start his training. Why didn’t Ben fight to the death to try to defeat Vader and Palpatine. Luke is facing a much larger foe. Rather than 2 sith it is a whole band of dark knights and Snoke. The combination of scope of his failure plus the might of those massed against him and it makes sense. We don’t need more than what we were told.

The difference is that we grew to know and love the character of Luke in the OT before seeing him being this broken douchebag in TLJ. Add to this, that Obi-Wan is a far more sympathetic character in ANH than Luke is in TLJ.

The fact that so many people were turned off by Luke’s characterization to me is a good indication we needed more than we were told. I know, I did.

I think the question is why you were turned off. And from what you describe your image of Luke being, I think the movie had an answer for you. Luke is a man not a legend. He really answers the question of why he didn’t fight when Rey asks him to return. He’s not a Legend with a laser sword.

Mrebo said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

I think the need to tell vs. show comes down to what matters to the story. Which matters more, what came before or what is happening now? The dialog satisfied me. Luke saw a darkness that scared him and instinctively drew and ignited his lightsaber. The fear passed, reason returned, but the damaged had been done it was the final straw that broke Ben Solo and turned him into Kylo Ren. Leia and Han sending Ben off to what amounts to boarding school with his uncle didn’t turn out well. The reasons for the past actions are not as important as how the characters react and develop in the current story. Luke is now a supporting role, not a starring role. How this relates to Rey and Kylo is the story at hand and we are given enough to justify the current state of affairs. Luke was always a bit petulant and his reaction to the events at his new Jedi temple are just an older version of the whiny farm boy who complained about not getting to go to Toche Station. Yes he has grown, but the trait remains, as it does with most people.

Rey has her own journey and that is what the story was focused on. She is trying to find her role and Luke did not help her at all, except for giving her access to the Jedi texts (which she stole… or scavanged?). Luke is now in the Ben Kenobi role.

I find it funny that we got so much more from Luke on how Kylo Ren fell than we got from Ben Kenobi back in 77. Have we asked the question of why Ben was in the Tatooine desert? He was a powerful Jedi Knight. What is he doing there? He tells us a great deal, but didn’t show us anything. And it turns out, as the story developed, that what he told Luke was a pack of lies. A carefully orchestrated story to get Luke involved and start his training. Why didn’t Ben fight to the death to try to defeat Vader and Palpatine. Luke is facing a much larger foe. Rather than 2 sith it is a whole band of dark knights and Snoke. The combination of scope of his failure plus the might of those massed against him and it makes sense. We don’t need more than what we were told.

The difference is that we grew to know and love the character of Luke in the OT before seeing him being this broken douchebag in TLJ. Add to this, that Obi-Wan is a far more sympathetic character in ANH than Luke is in TLJ.

The fact that so many people were turned off by Luke’s characterization to me is a good indication we needed more than we were told. I know, I did.

I think the question is why you were turned off. And from what you describe your image of Luke being, I think the movie had an answer for you. Luke is a man not a legend. He really answers the question of why he didn’t fight when Rey asks him to return. He’s not a Legend with a laser sword.

Part of the issue, for me at least, is I never envisioned Luke as a “Legend.” I don’t see Dre making that claim either. The few lines in that direction in the new films fell flat for me. The view I see being expressed, that I share, concerns Luke as the person in the OT.

Exactly! We witnessed Luke the person in the OT, and not some legend. Our expectations are based in how Luke grew as a character in the OT, and how that character reacted to setbacks, challenges, and disappointment.

The “legend” line in TLJ feels like a weak excuse for explaining the lack of development of the transition in Luke’s character. It sort of paints the older generation of fans as idiots, as if we didn’t understand the character, but RJ does. As if we believed jn this idealized version, “the legend”, and he’s going to show us the real Like.

Mrebo said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

I think the need to tell vs. show comes down to what matters to the story. Which matters more, what came before or what is happening now? The dialog satisfied me. Luke saw a darkness that scared him and instinctively drew and ignited his lightsaber. The fear passed, reason returned, but the damaged had been done it was the final straw that broke Ben Solo and turned him into Kylo Ren. Leia and Han sending Ben off to what amounts to boarding school with his uncle didn’t turn out well. The reasons for the past actions are not as important as how the characters react and develop in the current story. Luke is now a supporting role, not a starring role. How this relates to Rey and Kylo is the story at hand and we are given enough to justify the current state of affairs. Luke was always a bit petulant and his reaction to the events at his new Jedi temple are just an older version of the whiny farm boy who complained about not getting to go to Toche Station. Yes he has grown, but the trait remains, as it does with most people.

Rey has her own journey and that is what the story was focused on. She is trying to find her role and Luke did not help her at all, except for giving her access to the Jedi texts (which she stole… or scavanged?). Luke is now in the Ben Kenobi role.

I find it funny that we got so much more from Luke on how Kylo Ren fell than we got from Ben Kenobi back in 77. Have we asked the question of why Ben was in the Tatooine desert? He was a powerful Jedi Knight. What is he doing there? He tells us a great deal, but didn’t show us anything. And it turns out, as the story developed, that what he told Luke was a pack of lies. A carefully orchestrated story to get Luke involved and start his training. Why didn’t Ben fight to the death to try to defeat Vader and Palpatine. Luke is facing a much larger foe. Rather than 2 sith it is a whole band of dark knights and Snoke. The combination of scope of his failure plus the might of those massed against him and it makes sense. We don’t need more than what we were told.

The difference is that we grew to know and love the character of Luke in the OT before seeing him being this broken douchebag in TLJ. Add to this, that Obi-Wan is a far more sympathetic character in ANH than Luke is in TLJ.

The fact that so many people were turned off by Luke’s characterization to me is a good indication we needed more than we were told. I know, I did.

I think the question is why you were turned off. And from what you describe your image of Luke being, I think the movie had an answer for you. Luke is a man not a legend. He really answers the question of why he didn’t fight when Rey asks him to return. He’s not a Legend with a laser sword.

Part of the issue, for me at least, is I never envisioned Luke as a “Legend.” I don’t see Dre making that claim either. The few lines in that direction in the new films fell flat for me. The view I see being expressed, that I share, concerns Luke as the person in the OT.

People often react bad to epic tragedies. That Luke reacted bad to what happened at the Jedi Temple he had founded is completely natural and the seeds of that reaction are in the OT. Just because he was acting all grown up and like a Jedi in ROTJ does not mean his petulant self was not still lurking underneath.

DrDre said:

Mrebo said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

I think the need to tell vs. show comes down to what matters to the story. Which matters more, what came before or what is happening now? The dialog satisfied me. Luke saw a darkness that scared him and instinctively drew and ignited his lightsaber. The fear passed, reason returned, but the damaged had been done it was the final straw that broke Ben Solo and turned him into Kylo Ren. Leia and Han sending Ben off to what amounts to boarding school with his uncle didn’t turn out well. The reasons for the past actions are not as important as how the characters react and develop in the current story. Luke is now a supporting role, not a starring role. How this relates to Rey and Kylo is the story at hand and we are given enough to justify the current state of affairs. Luke was always a bit petulant and his reaction to the events at his new Jedi temple are just an older version of the whiny farm boy who complained about not getting to go to Toche Station. Yes he has grown, but the trait remains, as it does with most people.

Rey has her own journey and that is what the story was focused on. She is trying to find her role and Luke did not help her at all, except for giving her access to the Jedi texts (which she stole… or scavanged?). Luke is now in the Ben Kenobi role.

I find it funny that we got so much more from Luke on how Kylo Ren fell than we got from Ben Kenobi back in 77. Have we asked the question of why Ben was in the Tatooine desert? He was a powerful Jedi Knight. What is he doing there? He tells us a great deal, but didn’t show us anything. And it turns out, as the story developed, that what he told Luke was a pack of lies. A carefully orchestrated story to get Luke involved and start his training. Why didn’t Ben fight to the death to try to defeat Vader and Palpatine. Luke is facing a much larger foe. Rather than 2 sith it is a whole band of dark knights and Snoke. The combination of scope of his failure plus the might of those massed against him and it makes sense. We don’t need more than what we were told.

The difference is that we grew to know and love the character of Luke in the OT before seeing him being this broken douchebag in TLJ. Add to this, that Obi-Wan is a far more sympathetic character in ANH than Luke is in TLJ.

The fact that so many people were turned off by Luke’s characterization to me is a good indication we needed more than we were told. I know, I did.

I think the question is why you were turned off. And from what you describe your image of Luke being, I think the movie had an answer for you. Luke is a man not a legend. He really answers the question of why he didn’t fight when Rey asks him to return. He’s not a Legend with a laser sword.

Part of the issue, for me at least, is I never envisioned Luke as a “Legend.” I don’t see Dre making that claim either. The few lines in that direction in the new films fell flat for me. The view I see being expressed, that I share, concerns Luke as the person in the OT.

Exactly! We witnessed Luke the person in the OT, and not some legend. Our expectations are based in how Luke grew as a character in the OT, and how that character reacted to setbacks, challenges, and disappointment.

The legend line in TLJ feels like a wesk excuse for explaining the lack of development of the transition in his character. It treats the viewer like idiots, as if we didn’t understand the character, but RJ does.

But clearly some of us are on the same page as RJ and got what he was doing and found it fit with the character. Even Mark Hamill did after seeing the completed film.

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Mrebo said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

I think the need to tell vs. show comes down to what matters to the story. Which matters more, what came before or what is happening now? The dialog satisfied me. Luke saw a darkness that scared him and instinctively drew and ignited his lightsaber. The fear passed, reason returned, but the damaged had been done it was the final straw that broke Ben Solo and turned him into Kylo Ren. Leia and Han sending Ben off to what amounts to boarding school with his uncle didn’t turn out well. The reasons for the past actions are not as important as how the characters react and develop in the current story. Luke is now a supporting role, not a starring role. How this relates to Rey and Kylo is the story at hand and we are given enough to justify the current state of affairs. Luke was always a bit petulant and his reaction to the events at his new Jedi temple are just an older version of the whiny farm boy who complained about not getting to go to Toche Station. Yes he has grown, but the trait remains, as it does with most people.

Rey has her own journey and that is what the story was focused on. She is trying to find her role and Luke did not help her at all, except for giving her access to the Jedi texts (which she stole… or scavanged?). Luke is now in the Ben Kenobi role.

I find it funny that we got so much more from Luke on how Kylo Ren fell than we got from Ben Kenobi back in 77. Have we asked the question of why Ben was in the Tatooine desert? He was a powerful Jedi Knight. What is he doing there? He tells us a great deal, but didn’t show us anything. And it turns out, as the story developed, that what he told Luke was a pack of lies. A carefully orchestrated story to get Luke involved and start his training. Why didn’t Ben fight to the death to try to defeat Vader and Palpatine. Luke is facing a much larger foe. Rather than 2 sith it is a whole band of dark knights and Snoke. The combination of scope of his failure plus the might of those massed against him and it makes sense. We don’t need more than what we were told.

The difference is that we grew to know and love the character of Luke in the OT before seeing him being this broken douchebag in TLJ. Add to this, that Obi-Wan is a far more sympathetic character in ANH than Luke is in TLJ.

The fact that so many people were turned off by Luke’s characterization to me is a good indication we needed more than we were told. I know, I did.

I think the question is why you were turned off. And from what you describe your image of Luke being, I think the movie had an answer for you. Luke is a man not a legend. He really answers the question of why he didn’t fight when Rey asks him to return. He’s not a Legend with a laser sword.

Part of the issue, for me at least, is I never envisioned Luke as a “Legend.” I don’t see Dre making that claim either. The few lines in that direction in the new films fell flat for me. The view I see being expressed, that I share, concerns Luke as the person in the OT.

Exactly! We witnessed Luke the person in the OT, and not some legend. Our expectations are based in how Luke grew as a character in the OT, and how that character reacted to setbacks, challenges, and disappointment.

The legend line in TLJ feels like a wesk excuse for explaining the lack of development of the transition in his character. It treats the viewer like idiots, as if we didn’t understand the character, but RJ does.

But clearly some of us are on the same page as RJ and got what he was doing and found it fit with the character. Even Mark Hamill did after seeing the completed film.

I disagree. Most if not all of Hamill’s statements questioned Luke’s characterization even after the release of the film. I view his apology the same way I viewed Lucas’ white slaver apology. I’m sure he didn’t mean to state he dislikes TLJ, and didn’t want his statements to be interpreted as such, but I’m also sure he still views Luke in TLJ as “Jake Skywalker”, one that doesn’t quite fit with George Lucas Star Wars, or his personal interpretation of the character. Most importantly Hamill never took back his statements regarding Luke in any shape or form.

yotsuya said:

I think the need to tell vs. show comes down to what matters to the story. Which matters more, what came before or what is happening now? The dialog satisfied me. Luke saw a darkness that scared him and instinctively drew and ignited his lightsaber. The fear passed, reason returned, but the damaged had been done it was the final straw that broke Ben Solo and turned him into Kylo Ren. Leia and Han sending Ben off to what amounts to boarding school with his uncle didn’t turn out well. The reasons for the past actions are not as important as how the characters react and develop in the current story. Luke is now a supporting role, not a starring role. How this relates to Rey and Kylo is the story at hand and we are given enough to justify the current state of affairs. Luke was always a bit petulant and his reaction to the events at his new Jedi temple are just an older version of the whiny farm boy who complained about not getting to go to Toche Station. Yes he has grown, but the trait remains, as it does with most people.

Rey has her own journey and that is what the story was focused on. She is trying to find her role and Luke did not help her at all, except for giving her access to the Jedi texts (which she stole… or scavanged?). Luke is now in the Ben Kenobi role.

I find it funny that we got so much more from Luke on how Kylo Ren fell than we got from Ben Kenobi back in 77. Have we asked the question of why Ben was in the Tatooine desert? He was a powerful Jedi Knight. What is he doing there? He tells us a great deal, but didn’t show us anything. And it turns out, as the story developed, that what he told Luke was a pack of lies. A carefully orchestrated story to get Luke involved and start his training. Why didn’t Ben fight to the death to try to defeat Vader and Palpatine. Luke is facing a much larger foe. Rather than 2 sith it is a whole band of dark knights and Snoke. The combination of scope of his failure plus the might of those massed against him and it makes sense. We don’t need more than what we were told.

Maybe it would work better if Rey wasn’t a badly written character.

Collipso said:

yotsuya said:

I think the need to tell vs. show comes down to what matters to the story. Which matters more, what came before or what is happening now? The dialog satisfied me. Luke saw a darkness that scared him and instinctively drew and ignited his lightsaber. The fear passed, reason returned, but the damaged had been done it was the final straw that broke Ben Solo and turned him into Kylo Ren. Leia and Han sending Ben off to what amounts to boarding school with his uncle didn’t turn out well. The reasons for the past actions are not as important as how the characters react and develop in the current story. Luke is now a supporting role, not a starring role. How this relates to Rey and Kylo is the story at hand and we are given enough to justify the current state of affairs. Luke was always a bit petulant and his reaction to the events at his new Jedi temple are just an older version of the whiny farm boy who complained about not getting to go to Toche Station. Yes he has grown, but the trait remains, as it does with most people.

Rey has her own journey and that is what the story was focused on. She is trying to find her role and Luke did not help her at all, except for giving her access to the Jedi texts (which she stole… or scavanged?). Luke is now in the Ben Kenobi role.

I find it funny that we got so much more from Luke on how Kylo Ren fell than we got from Ben Kenobi back in 77. Have we asked the question of why Ben was in the Tatooine desert? He was a powerful Jedi Knight. What is he doing there? He tells us a great deal, but didn’t show us anything. And it turns out, as the story developed, that what he told Luke was a pack of lies. A carefully orchestrated story to get Luke involved and start his training. Why didn’t Ben fight to the death to try to defeat Vader and Palpatine. Luke is facing a much larger foe. Rather than 2 sith it is a whole band of dark knights and Snoke. The combination of scope of his failure plus the might of those massed against him and it makes sense. We don’t need more than what we were told.

Maybe it would work better if Rey wasn’t a badly written character.

That’s also part of my problem. Most of the OT heroes were turned into failures, as did many of their previous victories only to be replaced by what I percieve to be much more shallow and less developed new characters. The clock is turned back thirty years, the classic characters are made to appear inept, such that the new characters seem the only hope for the future, and history is set to repeat itself, another Empire to defeat, and another rebellion hoping to restore freedom. Another dark side user needing to be stopped, and another young Jedi hoping to restore the Jedi order.

Mavimao said:

I have a much more positive opinion of this film now that I’ve had a few days to reflect.

In essence, this film tells a very dour story: the First Order have caught up with the Rebellion that is on the run and alone after the destruction of the Republic, and they are slowly picked off one by one. What started with a whole base at the beginning, is just a handful of people that can fit in the Millennium Falcon by the end.

Another downer: people are making decisions that they think are the right ones, but they turn out to be completely wrong:

• Poe and attacking the ship then sending Rose and Finn to find a hacker. His actions have immense negative consequences that end up killing a lot of people.
• Luke cutting himself from the Force and wishing for the end of the Jedi.
• Rose and Finn finding A hacker (not THE hacker) and hoping for the best, which it doesn’t.

However, despite all of these terrible decisions comes a spark of hope:

• Poe sending Rose and Finn has inadvertently allowed the cause of the rebellion to spread.
• Luke has now become one with the Force and fully allows himself to be part of it instead of rejecting it, thus allowing him to save his friends and save his soul.
• Rey will carry on the Jedi, but perhaps is all the wiser thanks to Luke teaching her that the Force is not something that only people with a specific bloodline have, but that everyone has. This is reinforced with the boy and the broomstick and Rey’s lineage. This is in contrast with Luke who was told that, as a Skywalker, he was special, and that the force was strong with him and his family, and that only he could destroy Vader.

TL;DR: it’s good.

You make a few good points here that i hadn’t considered before.

Gaffer Tape said:

Mavimao said:

36 year old fan here: I felt like this Luke Skywalker definitely fell in line with the Luke we grew up with. Abeit one who made a mistake and can’t help but hide in shame.

The funny thing is: I was expecting a curmudgeon Luke when TFA came out. I mean, they pretty much set it up in that film. Jedi school gets wiped out by Kylo, Luke runs off to find the Jedi temple (looking for answers?), and doesn’t find solace and decides that life isn’t worth living.

I totally agree! It surprises me that people were surprised by the Rey/Luke pick-up at the top of this movie as compared to the end of TFA. As far as I saw it, that was exactly what I was expecting! When he tossed the lightsaber over his shoulder, it was shocking but at the same time, exactly what I figured was going to happen.

In that scene it kinda felt like they were doing this in the movie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX7wtNOkuHo

Same thing with the scene with reveal about Rey’s parents.

Sorry, but that is how it felt to me.