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All Things Star Trek — Page 164

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Marty and Doc traveled through time in a (mostly) controlled fashion.

Spock and Nero went through a Black Hole. No telling where or when you’ll end up. And Nero arrived years before Spock.

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Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

Marty and Doc traveled through time in a (mostly) controlled fashion.

Spock and Nero went through a Black Hole. No telling where or when you’ll end up. And Nero arrived years before Spock.

Black Holes only lead to different parts of the same timeline.

The Person in Question

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moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Warbler said:

ChainsawAsh said:

He says in that scene that they created an alternate 1985 and can’t go back to the original timeline without undoing the very creation of the alternate timeline.

Why can’t you, if both timelines exist?

Because they have a time machine, not a universe-hopping machine. They’re stuck in a particular timeline, and if they create a divergent one, they get stuck in the new one until they can undo what caused the creation of the new one. If they had a portal gun like Rick from Rick and Morty, they could just say “Ah, fuck it, too much work” and hop back to the original timeline.

Think of it like train tracks. When they create a divergence, they create a switch on the tracks to a new railway, but they don’t have the tools to simply move the switch back to the original railway to get back to it. They have to dismantle the switch altogether, which means going back slightly further than the creation of the switch and preventing its creation.

Another fun thing to think about: they’re not even trying to go back to the original timeline, since Marty created a new one in BTTF1 when he went back to 1955 and got hit by the car instead of his dad. The timeline created in BTTF2 is actually the third timeline. They’re trying to get back to the second timeline. Which raises the ethical question of, what about the original timeline? Do that version of Marty’s parents think their son went missing/was kidnapped by Lybian nationalists? And what happened to the Marty from timeline 2, the one who remembers growing up with his “fixed” parents? When he went back, did he change something else and wind up coming back to a fourth timeline? Did he get stuck in 1955 while timeline 1 Marty got to go back to the future? Is there a timeline where two, or three, or four Martys show up on 1955 Doc’s doorstep?

none of that makes sense to me. It makes more sense if there is just one timeline that just gets altered over and over again.

Really? None of that makes sense to you? As in 0% of it makes sense to you? That was explained excellently.

His pattern indicates 1-dimensional thinking (in terms of time travel).

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moviefreakedmind said:

SilverWook said:

Marty and Doc traveled through time in a (mostly) controlled fashion.

Spock and Nero went through a Black Hole. No telling where or when you’ll end up. And Nero arrived years before Spock.

Black Holes only lead to different parts of the same timeline.

That’s not what the Disney movie taught me. 😛

Forum Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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ChainsawAsh said:

Warbler said:

ChainsawAsh said:

He says in that scene that they created an alternate 1985 and can’t go back to the original timeline without undoing the very creation of the alternate timeline.

Why can’t you, if both timelines exist?

Because they have a time machine, not a universe-hopping machine. They’re stuck in a particular timeline, and if they create a divergent one, they get stuck in the new one until they can undo what caused the creation of the new one. If they had a portal gun like Rick from Rick and Morty, they could just say “Ah, fuck it, too much work” and hop back to the original timeline.

Think of it like train tracks. When they create a divergence, they create a switch on the tracks to a new railway, but they don’t have the tools to simply move the switch back to the original railway to get back to it. They have to dismantle the switch altogether, which means going back slightly further than the creation of the switch and preventing its creation.

Another fun thing to think about: they’re not even trying to go back to the original timeline, since Marty created a new one in BTTF1 when he went back to 1955 and got hit by the car instead of his dad. The timeline created in BTTF2 is actually the third timeline. They’re trying to get back to the second timeline. Which raises the ethical question of, what about the original timeline? Do that version of Marty’s parents think their son went missing/was kidnapped by Lybian nationalists? And what happened to the Marty from timeline 2, the one who remembers growing up with his “fixed” parents? When he went back, did he change something else and wind up coming back to a fourth timeline? Did he get stuck in 1955 while timeline 1 Marty got to go back to the future? Is there a timeline where two, or three, or four Martys show up on 1955 Doc’s doorstep?

Time travel is confusing and tough to write, man.

In the case of BTTF1, I have to disagree. Every time Marty comes close to altering the timeline in such a way that he would not be born, he starts to vanish. This means, that there is only one timeline.

Warbler said:

Frank your Majesty said:

Then there is the closed loop, like in Harry Potter, which makes lots of sense, but allows for some paradoxes and negates free will. Also, alternate timelines can’t exist.

What paradoxes does it create?

Harry can cast the patronus because he saw himself casting a patronus. This breaks causality.

Ceci n’est pas une signature.

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Frank your Majesty said:

In the case of BTTF1, I have to disagree. Every time Marty comes close to altering the timeline in such a way that he would not be born, he starts to vanish. This means, that there is only one timeline.

That’s a very good point, actually. I always preferred BTTF1 by a wide margin because of seemingly random-ass things that suddenly appear in the sequels (the “chicken” thing, any new character related to Marty in another time is suddenly played by Michael J. Fox, a couple other things), and you pointing that out just adds another example of the dissonance between 1 and 2/3 that I hadn’t noticed before. Huh.

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 (Edited)

I recall an old Starlog article getting into BTTF theories and how many Marty’s there are and such. I’ll have to look around on archive.org and see if they have the issue it appeared in.

Forum Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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Time Travel can cause self fixing paradoxes, divergent timelines, and total continuity collapse. The same technology can take you to parallel universes sharing analogues of elements from your native universe. It’s fun. Like camping.

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ChainsawAsh said:

If it doesn’t make sense to you, I don’t know how I can explain it in a more clear manner, so I’ll do my best to leave it alone.

I agree.

But everything official about ST09 says that the Kelvin timeline is a separate entity that exists alongside the prime timeline,

everything except, imho, ST09 itself. Sorry, but that is my honest interpretation of the events of the movie.

and it’s somewhat exasperating to me that you espouse strict adherence to official canon on the one hand while blatantly ignoring official canon in favor of your personal interpretation on the other (albeit for a different fictional universe).

It is my own interpretation of something(ST09) that is itself official canon. If everyone in charge of official canon said that Chekov and not Kirk was Captain of the Enterprise and yet you can clearly see from the tv series’ and movies that Kirk is the Captain, what would do? You would say the people, no matter how official they are, that are saying Chekov was Captain were wrong because you can clearly see from the movies and tv series’ that Kirk was the Captain.

But at this point I don’t think we’re going to get anywhere by continuing to discuss it.

I agree with you here.

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moviefreakedmind said:

ChainsawAsh said:
But everything official about ST09 says that the Kelvin timeline is a separate entity that exists alongside the prime timeline, and it’s somewhat exasperating to me that you espouse strict adherence to official canon on the one hand while blatantly ignoring official canon in favor of your personal interpretation on the other (albeit for a different fictional universe).

LOL! This is so true.

*sigh*

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moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Warbler said:

ChainsawAsh said:

He says in that scene that they created an alternate 1985 and can’t go back to the original timeline without undoing the very creation of the alternate timeline.

Why can’t you, if both timelines exist?

Because they have a time machine, not a universe-hopping machine. They’re stuck in a particular timeline, and if they create a divergent one, they get stuck in the new one until they can undo what caused the creation of the new one. If they had a portal gun like Rick from Rick and Morty, they could just say “Ah, fuck it, too much work” and hop back to the original timeline.

Think of it like train tracks. When they create a divergence, they create a switch on the tracks to a new railway, but they don’t have the tools to simply move the switch back to the original railway to get back to it. They have to dismantle the switch altogether, which means going back slightly further than the creation of the switch and preventing its creation.

Another fun thing to think about: they’re not even trying to go back to the original timeline, since Marty created a new one in BTTF1 when he went back to 1955 and got hit by the car instead of his dad. The timeline created in BTTF2 is actually the third timeline. They’re trying to get back to the second timeline. Which raises the ethical question of, what about the original timeline? Do that version of Marty’s parents think their son went missing/was kidnapped by Lybian nationalists? And what happened to the Marty from timeline 2, the one who remembers growing up with his “fixed” parents? When he went back, did he change something else and wind up coming back to a fourth timeline? Did he get stuck in 1955 while timeline 1 Marty got to go back to the future? Is there a timeline where two, or three, or four Martys show up on 1955 Doc’s doorstep?

none of that makes sense to me. It makes more sense if there is just one timeline that just gets altered over and over again.

Really? None of that makes sense to you? As in 0% of it makes sense to you? That was explained excellently.

no matter how many times you say it, it doesn’t make sense that going back in time and changing history will suddenly create a new universe and now there are two when before there was just one.

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darth_ender said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Warbler said:

ChainsawAsh said:

He says in that scene that they created an alternate 1985 and can’t go back to the original timeline without undoing the very creation of the alternate timeline.

Why can’t you, if both timelines exist?

Because they have a time machine, not a universe-hopping machine. They’re stuck in a particular timeline, and if they create a divergent one, they get stuck in the new one until they can undo what caused the creation of the new one. If they had a portal gun like Rick from Rick and Morty, they could just say “Ah, fuck it, too much work” and hop back to the original timeline.

Think of it like train tracks. When they create a divergence, they create a switch on the tracks to a new railway, but they don’t have the tools to simply move the switch back to the original railway to get back to it. They have to dismantle the switch altogether, which means going back slightly further than the creation of the switch and preventing its creation.

Another fun thing to think about: they’re not even trying to go back to the original timeline, since Marty created a new one in BTTF1 when he went back to 1955 and got hit by the car instead of his dad. The timeline created in BTTF2 is actually the third timeline. They’re trying to get back to the second timeline. Which raises the ethical question of, what about the original timeline? Do that version of Marty’s parents think their son went missing/was kidnapped by Lybian nationalists? And what happened to the Marty from timeline 2, the one who remembers growing up with his “fixed” parents? When he went back, did he change something else and wind up coming back to a fourth timeline? Did he get stuck in 1955 while timeline 1 Marty got to go back to the future? Is there a timeline where two, or three, or four Martys show up on 1955 Doc’s doorstep?

none of that makes sense to me. It makes more sense if there is just one timeline that just gets altered over and over again.

Really? None of that makes sense to you? As in 0% of it makes sense to you? That was explained excellently.

His pattern indicates 1-dimensional thinking (in terms of time travel).

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Time

Frank your Majesty said:

Warbler said:

Frank your Majesty said:

Then there is the closed loop, like in Harry Potter, which makes lots of sense, but allows for some paradoxes and negates free will. Also, alternate timelines can’t exist.

What paradoxes does it create?

Harry can cast the patronus because he saw himself casting a patronus. This breaks causality.

He saw himself doing it, and it gave him self confidence that he could do it. It is not that he can cast the patronus because he saw himself do it, it is that he can cast the patronus because he has the ability and knew he had the ability because he saw himself do it. I don’t see the problem.

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What’s the general consensus on Wesley Crusher here? Was he irredeemably horrible or just poorly written most of the time. He doesn’t bother me at all in episodes like First Duty and Coming of Age, but his good episodes are so few and far between.

The Person in Question

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moviefreakedmind said:

What’s the general consensus on Wesley Crusher here? Was he irredeemably horrible or just poorly written most of the time. He doesn’t bother me at all in episodes like First Duty and Coming of Age, but his good episodes are so few and far between.

He was fantastic in The Guild.

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TV’s Frink said:

moviefreakedmind said:

What’s the general consensus on Wesley Crusher here? Was he irredeemably horrible or just poorly written most of the time. He doesn’t bother me at all in episodes like First Duty and Coming of Age, but his good episodes are so few and far between.

He was fantastic in The Guild.

Take it to Wil’s Wheaton thread.

The Person in Question

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moviefreakedmind said:

What’s the general consensus on Wesley Crusher here? Was he irredeemably horrible or just poorly written most of the time. He doesn’t bother me at all in episodes like First Duty and Coming of Age, but his good episodes are so few and far between.

Very poorly written for - especially early on.

(having said that, the writing in the first couple of seasons wasn’t great, certainly - and thankfully - improving in season 3 and beyond)

In the latter seasons I wish we’d actually seen a bit more of him, as he became a more rounded-out character and was interesting where the writers were seemingly going with him.

A little patience goes a long way on this old-school Rebel base. If you are having issues finding what you are looking for, these will be of some help…

Welcome to the OriginalTrilogy.com | Introduce yourself in here | Useful info within : About : Help : Site Rules : Fan Project Rules : Announcements
How do I do this?’ on the OriginalTrilogy.com; some info & answers + FAQs - includes info on how to search for projects and threads on the OT•com

A Project Index for Star Wars Preservations (Harmy’s Despecialized & 4K77/80/83 etc) : A Project Index for Star Wars Fan Edits (adywan & Hal 9000 etc)

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I think he stood out as so bad in the first two seasons because a poorly written kid character is much worse than a poorly written adult character. Troi was arguably as poorly written as Wesley, if not worse, especially in Encounter at Farpoint, but she was infinitely less irritating.

The Person in Question

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 (Edited)

😄 (especially when written as a child genius - viewers usually should be able to connect with the characters - or at least some of their characterisations)

I was about to give Troi as an example of some of the poor characterisation ‘I’m feeling so much pain’ or similar, Captain Obvious type lines of dialogue (and at times delivery) early on.

Another is Worf pointing his phaser at the viewscreen in one episode too. Poor Dr Pulanski as well for season 2.

Very glad they improved in the main throughout the series 😃

A little patience goes a long way on this old-school Rebel base. If you are having issues finding what you are looking for, these will be of some help…

Welcome to the OriginalTrilogy.com | Introduce yourself in here | Useful info within : About : Help : Site Rules : Fan Project Rules : Announcements
How do I do this?’ on the OriginalTrilogy.com; some info & answers + FAQs - includes info on how to search for projects and threads on the OT•com

A Project Index for Star Wars Preservations (Harmy’s Despecialized & 4K77/80/83 etc) : A Project Index for Star Wars Fan Edits (adywan & Hal 9000 etc)

… and take your time to look around this site before posting - to get a feel for this place. Don’t just lazily make yet another thread asking for projects.

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Troi is laughably ridiculous in Farpoint. What did she say at the end? “Good tidings and joy for all!” or something like that. SAD!

The Person in Question

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moviefreakedmind said:

What’s the general consensus on Wesley Crusher here? Was he irredeemably horrible or just poorly written most of the time. He doesn’t bother me at all in episodes like First Duty and Coming of Age, but his good episodes are so few and far between.

Don’t know, but the way his character was handled in “Journey’s End” does bother me. It really bothers me that Nemesis seems to totally ignore the events of “Journey’s End” and Wesley is shown standing next to his mother back in Starfleet uniform like nothing happened.

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There was a deleted scene where he said to Picard that he went back to Starfleet. That still completely ignored Journey’s End. IDK. Wesley dropping out of Starfleet didn’t fit his character. He was meant for studies and service. Jake Sisko refusing Starfleet, now that was in line with his somewhat mischievous and artistic character.

The Person in Question