Politics 2: Electric Boogaloo — Page 487

Bingowings said:

The myth that the Tories are the party of sensible finances is blown to pieces in a Tory newspaper of all places : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/10/15/britains-missing-billions-revised-figures-reveal-uk-490bn-poorer/

I’m afraid if Thatcher couldn’t blow that myth to pieces, a Tory newspaper can’t make a dent. I’d love to be wrong – we have the same problem over here (albeit currently overshadowed by our fascism problem).

When it comes to police state fascism in the United States, the democrats are the other side of the same coin. Obama doubled down on the illegal wiretappings and unconstitutional searches, seizures, and imprisonments that he claimed to have hated so much under Bush. The Patriot Act had bipartisan support. Let’s not pretend that either party is our friend.

Bingowings said:

The myth that the Tories are the party of sensible finances is blown to pieces in a Tory newspaper of all places : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/10/15/britains-missing-billions-revised-figures-reveal-uk-490bn-poorer/

A surprising article that from The Telegraph - one of the proponents, along with the right-wing tabloids, that perpetuated the myth - the lie - that the Tories were to be trusted with the finances of the country…

The tide is turning - and even their own supporters acknowledge they can’t keep on deflecting the blame (incorrectly) onto the last Labour Govt of 7 years ago now.

They have nowhere to go - no-one else to blame, no-one to point the finger at - no-one but themselves.

May should really call another election - under her not-so ‘strong and stable’ leadership - if she truly believes what she had done, and is doing, is the best the UK can hope for.

moviefreakedmind said:

When it comes to police state fascism in the United States, the democrats are the other side of the same coin. Obama doubled down on the illegal wiretappings and unconstitutional searches, seizures, and imprisonments that he claimed to have hated so much under Bush. The Patriot Act had bipartisan support. Let’s not pretend that either party is our friend.

Straight from the Holocaust museum. Trump checks off just a few more (14) of these warning signs than Bush (8) and Obama (3). Sure, I wish they all scored zero too.

Jeebus said:

CatBus said:

Straight from the Holocaust museum. Trump checks off just a few more (14) of these warning signs than Bush (8) and Obama (3). Sure, I wish they all scored zero too.

Just out of curiosity, which ones do you see Bush and Obama checking off?

For the things they both qualified for, I could see some people making a case for supremacy of the military, but I didn’t. They both got obsession with national security, corporate power protected, and obsession with crime and punishment (e.g. Obama’s deportation spree, which only looks tame in contrast with Trump’s). I could also see labor power suppressed, but I’d say in Obama’s case it was neglect rather than suppression. If you were a big labor advocate or pacifist/non-interventionist, I could see how you could score Obama higher. As I write this I’m sensing you probably meant an itemized list for each rather than the overlap. Dangit I can’t see the list and post at the same time.

Over what Obama got, Bush got supremacy of the military, powerful and continuing nationalism (Freedom Fries were stupid but they worked), disdain for human rights, identification of enemies as a unifying cause, and religion and government intertwined. Again, Bush could also have been easily seen as anti-labor, but considering the labor movement in the US has been dead for decades, it’s hard to rate people in terms of the severity of their opposition to a hypothetical, so I gave them both a pass. But Trump gets it because he’s actually going through the trouble of reversing Obama’s fairly tame and neutral labor policies – but you could also put that down to his anti-Obama fixation and not anti-labor anything. I probably would have handed Bush cronyism and corruption at the time, but Trump has shown what “rampant” really means. And while the 2000 election was certainly a judicial coup in my mind, there’s a difference between that and fraud being pushed by Kobach’s voter suppression panel in terms of either imaginary conspiracy theories serving as justification for their actions, or very tangible policy proposals that would without question put a muzzle on free and fair elections.

Bush and Obama weren’t as overt as Trump in as many ways, especially not Obama, but their actions check most of those boxes. I’m not defending Trump, I’m just advocating that we not give other POS politicians credit they don’t deserve.

Despite all three showing “warning signs,” it’s a false equivalence to compare them all. And regardless, we are still not living in a fascist state.

I’m not saying they’re all exactly the same. I don’t see how it’s a false equivalence to compare them, and of course we aren’t living in a fascist state.

Similar in their disregard for the fourth amendment? That’s not a false equivalence.

What disturbed me the most about Bush was his letting Cheney run roughshod with his military industrial complex. Also didn’t like his environmental and social policies. But as a person, I think he was trying to do the right thing.

What disturbed me the most about Obama was his ramping up of drone strikes, which I think is unbecoming and hypocritical of our country. Also questioned the one-sided-ness of the bank bailout. But as a person, I think he was trying to do the right thing.

Trump is in a whole other league. If I started a similar list, it would go on and on, as I disagree with nearly every change he has instituted (or tried to institute). Easily orders of magnitude worse. And as a person, I think he is a con man trying to make as much money out of this deal as he can, and that he blatantly doesn’t give a crap about anyone else. It still stuns me that people would vote for such a total creep.

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

It still stuns me that people would vote for such a total creep.

That still stuns me. There are tons of shady people running for office every day, but Trump is the only one I can think of who presented his awfulness in plain view as the reasons for people to vote for him, and won.

And back to the “Warning Signs” discussion, they’re just that–warning signs. Clearly the executive branch has some fascists in it, but that’s not the whole government. It’s not even the whole executive branch. Nevertheless, the acceptable amount of fascists in government is zero.

CatBus said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

It still stuns me that people would vote for such a total creep.

That still stuns me. There are tons of shady people running for office every day, but Trump is the only one I can think of who presented his awfulness in plain view as the reasons for people to vote for him, and won.

Well, at least he’s honest in that regard.

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

What disturbed me the most about Bush was his letting Cheney run roughshod with his military industrial complex. Also didn’t like his environmental and social policies. But as a person, I think he was trying to do the right thing.

What disturbed me the most about Obama was his ramping up of drone strikes, which I think is unbecoming and hypocritical of our country. Also questioned the one-sided-ness of the bank bailout. But as a person, I think he was trying to do the right thing.

Trump is in a whole other league. If I started a similar list, it would go on and on, as I disagree with nearly every change he has instituted (or tried to institute). Easily orders of magnitude worse. And as a person, I think he is a con man trying to make as much money out of this deal as he can, and that he blatantly doesn’t give a crap about anyone else. It still stuns me that people would vote for such a total creep.

I agree almost completely. I’d add the Patriot Act and expansion of government overwatch to both Bush and Obama though. Also, Obama as a President was a lot more competent than Bush. That needs to be stated.