Doctor Who — Page 59

Bingowings said:

Warbler said:

I saw a little bit of an episode this season. I can see the series is not for me anymore. The Master switching to a good guy/gal? It is ok that he/she murdered people because people eat meat??? Sorry no thanks.

I’m a vegetarian so it’s preaching to the converted in my case.
But it’s really a metaphor for ethical perspective and innate nature. As moral beings we see killing our own kind, most of the time, as an act of evil but as products of nature making that connection to what we may deem as lesser creatures isn’t as obvious. There is a similar problem for some when they respond to the eating of pigs and dogs or killing of creatures considered pests when a more humane option is available. The Master is an alien. He/she sees us as barely alive shapes that can be popped for amusement but her friend from the same species sees us as kindred. The Mistress seems to having an epithany (though she could be lying). She seems to be seeing us as more than finger paint. As a Christian Warb you believe in redemption for all, even Satan could be redeemed if he genuinely acted on regret and confession. Missy has been Conditioned to be Satanic. She claims to be breaking that conditioning… Very reluctantly at the moment and possibly as a deception. The Doctor wants redemption for all. He has done terrible things and feels if he can save these arch characters he can save himself. It’s a surprisingly Christian theme. I’m confused why you wouldn’t embrace it.

I figured you’d respond with something like this.

1. I will never ever equate the killing of humans(sentient, a life that knows and knows that it knows) to the killing of an animal(non-sentient). I know we will never agree on this, so that is that.

2. Yes I understand that Missy/Master doesn’t equate the life of a human with that of a Timelord. But still he/she is smart enough to be able to see that humans are sentient. Also has the Master/Missy ever had a problem with taking the life a Timelord when it suits his/her purposes?

3. when/how was Missy/Master “conditioned” to be satanic?

4. I could be wrong about this, but I am pretty sure that Satan is beyond redemption by now.

5. You might as well try to redeem the Daleks.

6. There is a difference between how I view things in real life as compared to a fictional tv show. The fictional Master/Missy is beyond redemption, imo. Real life villain aren’t like character of the Master/Missy.

7. You say the Doctor did terrible things. What terrible things. If I am not mistaken, the only “terrible thing” he did, he has reversed so it never happened. Also did that “terrible thing” to end war that threatened the galaxy. He did it to save lives.

Bingowings said:

It’s nothing to do with any particular show runner,

I have to disagree with you here. The show runner can most definitely have an effect on the quality of the show. To say otherwise is to say that Lucas had nothing to do with the quality(or lack there of) of the Star Wars movies he was involved with. Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you mean here.

Bingowings said:

Handman said:

My biggest complaint about Capaldi’s shows, is that even when there is one or two good stories, there are always three or four completely incoherent messes to bury them. I’m with Tobar. Can’t wait for Moffat to leave.

The character has been around since 1963 in television, audio, cinema, comic book and novel form and in every iteration over those many decades when it is bad it’s dull. When it’s good it’s astounding. It’s nothing to do with any particular show runner, though a fresh injection of creativity tends to spark the greater stories. For every Robots of Death there is a Horns of Nimon. For every Midnight there is a Fear Her. For every Heaven Sent there is a Sleep No More. Roll with it.

Of course it has something to do with the show runner, they set the tone for the show. Moffat is pretty much the new show’s JNT, he should have left years ago. For every Heaven Sent there is a Hell Bent. There are good ideas in the shows now, but too often they’re muddled with a bunch of other messes that the overall effectiveness is diminished. I think Capaldi is a great Doctor, but I can count the number of his stories I’d want to rewatch on one hand.

1. Mummy on the Orient Express
2. Flatline
3. The Zygon Invasion/The Zygon Inversion
4. Heaven Sent

I still have yet to complete Series 10, so I’m withholding any episodes there. However, from what I can tell, they’re getting away from nonsense stories and have more coherent plots. I think we’ve had some of the best episodes of the new series with Capaldi, but also some of the absolute worst. That’s not saying RTD was a genius, either, but the show is definitely in a rough spot creatively, and it shows in the ratings, the year hiatus, the soon-to-be cancellation of Class, and other such things.

IGNORE

Dammit, I was really hoping I didn’t kill this discussion.

Warbler said:

Bingowings said:

Warbler said:

I saw a little bit of an episode this season. I can see the series is not for me anymore. The Master switching to a good guy/gal? It is ok that he/she murdered people because people eat meat??? Sorry no thanks.

I’m a vegetarian so it’s preaching to the converted in my case.
But it’s really a metaphor for ethical perspective and innate nature. As moral beings we see killing our own kind, most of the time, as an act of evil but as products of nature making that connection to what we may deem as lesser creatures isn’t as obvious. There is a similar problem for some when they respond to the eating of pigs and dogs or killing of creatures considered pests when a more humane option is available. The Master is an alien. He/she sees us as barely alive shapes that can be popped for amusement but her friend from the same species sees us as kindred. The Mistress seems to having an epithany (though she could be lying). She seems to be seeing us as more than finger paint. As a Christian Warb you believe in redemption for all, even Satan could be redeemed if he genuinely acted on regret and confession. Missy has been Conditioned to be Satanic. She claims to be breaking that conditioning… Very reluctantly at the moment and possibly as a deception. The Doctor wants redemption for all. He has done terrible things and feels if he can save these arch characters he can save himself. It’s a surprisingly Christian theme. I’m confused why you wouldn’t embrace it.

I figured you’d respond with something like this.

1. I will never ever equate the killing of humans(sentient, a life that knows and knows that it knows) to the killing of an animal(non-sentient). I know we will never agree on this, so that is that.

2. Yes I understand that Missy/Master doesn’t equate the life of a human with that of a Timelord. But still he/she is smart enough to be able to see that humans are sentient. Also has the Master/Missy ever had a problem with taking the life a Timelord when it suits his/her purposes?

3. when/how was Missy/Master “conditioned” to be satanic?

4. I could be wrong about this, but I am pretty sure that Satan is beyond redemption by now.

5. You might as well try to redeem the Daleks.

6. There is a difference between how I view things in real life as compared to a fictional tv show. The fictional Master/Missy is beyond redemption, imo. Real life villain aren’t like character of the Master/Missy.

7. You say the Doctor did terrible things. What terrible things. If I am not mistaken, the only “terrible thing” he did, he has reversed so it never happened. Also did that “terrible thing” to end war that threatened the galaxy. He did it to save lives.

1. Most animals (possibly some networks of plants and fungi) are without doubt sentient, Sapience is relative. But in the context of the show the Doctor can hold a conversation with cat or a horse in the same way he can with a human baby. The language of crows is something the telepathic circuits of the TARDIS can translate into languages the crew can understand. In the past this gave the Doctor pause enough to dabble with vegetarianism (something he gave up though his subconscious beats himself up over it).

2).Missy like the Doctor can hold a conversation with a cat. Missy would probably eat a cat and enjoy it just as Bill enjoys her bacon sandwich. She has eaten humans and considered eating Clara. To her awareness is not enough to warrant parity as a species. She has generally sociopathic tendencies even to other Time Lords but to her eating human is no different than Bill eating pork.

3). The Master was made aware of his own heart beat as a signal to the High Council to attempt to pull them out of the Time War. This became more acute over time and contributed to his pure mental health (The Sound of Drums). Rassilon himself assumes responsibility for the Master being “diseased” but doesn’t care, being pretty evil himself.

4)… surely for the love your enemy thing to work God has to practice what he preaches. Going by the character’s MO I doubt if the Prince of Lies would give an honest confession but that’s the same situation we have with Missy who is at least as dishonest as the Doctor.

5. The Doctor has repeatedly hoped for redemption for the Daleks (see Evil of the Daleks and Into the Dalek). He is happy when it seems to work and disappointed when it doesn’t. The Daleks are not his friends or even best enemies. Look at the acts of compassion he visited on Davros (someone he describes as his arch enemy much to annoyance of Missy).

6. All things are fiction to some degree. It’s all metaphor. I don’t fully understand the workings of my own mind so to assume that of even my best friend is arrogant. All I have to work with is an approximation of what I can deduce other people are like. A story, based on a true story. So Missy is as real as anyone in my life… from a certain point of view 😃 There are similar creatures who see people as toys and toys as something to be broken. I can imagine some of those people experimenting with not behaving that way to reach some other goal. Maybe for Missy being friends with the Doctor again is worth giving up finger painting with the blood of the innocent… at least for a while. For the Doctor redemption for his old friend is worth risking the lives of his new friends. He is an alien. And if two human being can have different attitudes towards bacon or dog why can’t two aliens have different attitudes towards human or any other creature?

Handman said:

Bingowings said:

Handman said:

My biggest complaint about Capaldi’s shows, is that even when there is one or two good stories, there are always three or four completely incoherent messes to bury them. I’m with Tobar. Can’t wait for Moffat to leave.

The character has been around since 1963 in television, audio, cinema, comic book and novel form and in every iteration over those many decades when it is bad it’s dull. When it’s good it’s astounding. It’s nothing to do with any particular show runner, though a fresh injection of creativity tends to spark the greater stories. For every Robots of Death there is a Horns of Nimon. For every Midnight there is a Fear Her. For every Heaven Sent there is a Sleep No More. Roll with it.

Of course it has something to do with the show runner, they set the tone for the show. Moffat is pretty much the new show’s JNT, he should have left years ago. For every Heaven Sent there is a Hell Bent. There are good ideas in the shows now, but too often they’re muddled with a bunch of other messes that the overall effectiveness is diminished. I think Capaldi is a great Doctor, but I can count the number of his stories I’d want to rewatch on one hand.

1. Mummy on the Orient Express
2. Flatline
3. The Zygon Invasion/The Zygon Inversion
4. Heaven Sent

I still have yet to complete Series 10, so I’m withholding any episodes there. However, from what I can tell, they’re getting away from nonsense stories and have more coherent plots. I think we’ve had some of the best episodes of the new series with Capaldi, but also some of the absolute worst. That’s not saying RTD was a genius, either, but the show is definitely in a rough spot creatively, and it shows in the ratings, the year hiatus, the soon-to-be cancellation of Class, and other such things.

The same is true of every age of Doctor Who.
I love “The Empty Child” “Dalek” and “The Unquiet Dead” but most of the Ninth Doctor is forgettable.
But Eccles had one year.
Tennant has “The Girl in the Fireplace” “Human Nature”, “Blink”, “Midnight”, "Turn Left"
and so much awful crap that I only watch out of devotion to the show.
The same is true of Tom Baker. I love watching all the actors who play the character but is “The Nightmare of Eden” essential viewing?

Bingowings said:

Handman said:

Bingowings said:

Handman said:

My biggest complaint about Capaldi’s shows, is that even when there is one or two good stories, there are always three or four completely incoherent messes to bury them. I’m with Tobar. Can’t wait for Moffat to leave.

The character has been around since 1963 in television, audio, cinema, comic book and novel form and in every iteration over those many decades when it is bad it’s dull. When it’s good it’s astounding. It’s nothing to do with any particular show runner, though a fresh injection of creativity tends to spark the greater stories. For every Robots of Death there is a Horns of Nimon. For every Midnight there is a Fear Her. For every Heaven Sent there is a Sleep No More. Roll with it.

Of course it has something to do with the show runner, they set the tone for the show. Moffat is pretty much the new show’s JNT, he should have left years ago. For every Heaven Sent there is a Hell Bent. There are good ideas in the shows now, but too often they’re muddled with a bunch of other messes that the overall effectiveness is diminished. I think Capaldi is a great Doctor, but I can count the number of his stories I’d want to rewatch on one hand.

1. Mummy on the Orient Express
2. Flatline
3. The Zygon Invasion/The Zygon Inversion
4. Heaven Sent

I still have yet to complete Series 10, so I’m withholding any episodes there. However, from what I can tell, they’re getting away from nonsense stories and have more coherent plots. I think we’ve had some of the best episodes of the new series with Capaldi, but also some of the absolute worst. That’s not saying RTD was a genius, either, but the show is definitely in a rough spot creatively, and it shows in the ratings, the year hiatus, the soon-to-be cancellation of Class, and other such things.

The same is true of every age of Doctor Who.
I love “The Empty Child” “Dalek” and “The Unquiet Dead” but most of the Ninth Doctor is forgettable.
But Eccles had one year.

Exactly, three great re-watchable episodes in one year for the new show is quite something. I think Eccleston’s year is pretty underrated, farting aliens notwithstanding.

Tennant has “The Girl in the Fireplace” “Human Nature”, “Blink”, “Midnight”, "Turn Left"
and so much awful crap that I only watch out of devotion to the show.

While it’s true Tennant had some awful stuff (Rose romance, “I don’t wanna go” especially), I don’t recall the worst stuff being as bad as, say, “Kill the Moon”, “Robot of Sherwood”, or that viking episode that had an evil lion show up in the last 20 minutes and derail a character study. Clara was especially mishandled, she was given a few good farewells but kept coming back only to leave with a whimper.

The same is true of Tom Baker. I love watching all the actors who play the character but is “The Nightmare of Eden” essential viewing?

That era is not exactly my favorite from the classic show either, but that was a producer combating tons of other issues rather than a showrunner hanging on past his prime.

Bingowings said:

Warbler said:

Bingowings said:

Warbler said:

I saw a little bit of an episode this season. I can see the series is not for me anymore. The Master switching to a good guy/gal? It is ok that he/she murdered people because people eat meat??? Sorry no thanks.

I’m a vegetarian so it’s preaching to the converted in my case.
But it’s really a metaphor for ethical perspective and innate nature. As moral beings we see killing our own kind, most of the time, as an act of evil but as products of nature making that connection to what we may deem as lesser creatures isn’t as obvious. There is a similar problem for some when they respond to the eating of pigs and dogs or killing of creatures considered pests when a more humane option is available. The Master is an alien. He/she sees us as barely alive shapes that can be popped for amusement but her friend from the same species sees us as kindred. The Mistress seems to having an epithany (though she could be lying). She seems to be seeing us as more than finger paint. As a Christian Warb you believe in redemption for all, even Satan could be redeemed if he genuinely acted on regret and confession. Missy has been Conditioned to be Satanic. She claims to be breaking that conditioning… Very reluctantly at the moment and possibly as a deception. The Doctor wants redemption for all. He has done terrible things and feels if he can save these arch characters he can save himself. It’s a surprisingly Christian theme. I’m confused why you wouldn’t embrace it.

I figured you’d respond with something like this.

1. I will never ever equate the killing of humans(sentient, a life that knows and knows that it knows) to the killing of an animal(non-sentient). I know we will never agree on this, so that is that.

2. Yes I understand that Missy/Master doesn’t equate the life of a human with that of a Timelord. But still he/she is smart enough to be able to see that humans are sentient. Also has the Master/Missy ever had a problem with taking the life a Timelord when it suits his/her purposes?

3. when/how was Missy/Master “conditioned” to be satanic?

4. I could be wrong about this, but I am pretty sure that Satan is beyond redemption by now.

5. You might as well try to redeem the Daleks.

6. There is a difference between how I view things in real life as compared to a fictional tv show. The fictional Master/Missy is beyond redemption, imo. Real life villain aren’t like character of the Master/Missy.

7. You say the Doctor did terrible things. What terrible things. If I am not mistaken, the only “terrible thing” he did, he has reversed so it never happened. Also did that “terrible thing” to end war that threatened the galaxy. He did it to save lives.

1. Most animals (possibly some networks of plants and fungi) are without doubt sentient, Sapience is relative. But in the context of the show the Doctor can hold a conversation with cat or a horse in the same way he can with a human baby. The language of crows is something the telepathic circuits of the TARDIS can translate into languages the crew can understand. In the past this gave the Doctor pause enough to dabble with vegetarianism (something he gave up though his subconscious beats himself up over it).

2).Missy like the Doctor can hold a conversation with a cat. Missy would probably eat a cat and enjoy it just as Bill enjoys her bacon sandwich. She has eaten humans and considered eating Clara. To her awareness is not enough to warrant parity as a species. She has generally sociopathic tendencies even to other Time Lords but to her eating human is no different than Bill eating pork.

3). The Master was made aware of his own heart beat as a signal to the High Council to attempt to pull them out of the Time War. This became more acute over time and contributed to his pure mental health (The Sound of Drums). Rassilon himself assumes responsibility for the Master being “diseased” but doesn’t care, being pretty evil himself.

4)… surely for the love your enemy thing to work God has to practice what he preaches. Going by the character’s MO I doubt if the Prince of Lies would give an honest confession but that’s the same situation we have with Missy who is at least as dishonest as the Doctor.

5. The Doctor has repeatedly hoped for redemption for the Daleks (see Evil of the Daleks and Into the Dalek). He is happy when it seems to work and disappointed when it doesn’t. The Daleks are not his friends or even best enemies. Look at the acts of compassion he visited on Davros (someone he describes as his arch enemy much to annoyance of Missy).

6. All things are fiction to some degree. It’s all metaphor. I don’t fully understand the workings of my own mind so to assume that of even my best friend is arrogant. All I have to work with is an approximation of what I can deduce other people are like. A story, based on a true story. So Missy is as real as anyone in my life… from a certain point of view 😃 There are similar creatures who see people as toys and toys as something to be broken. I can imagine some of those people experimenting with not behaving that way to reach some other goal. Maybe for Missy being friends with the Doctor again is worth giving up finger painting with the blood of the innocent… at least for a while. For the Doctor redemption for his old friend is worth risking the lives of his new friends. He is an alien. And if two human being can have different attitudes towards bacon or dog why can’t two aliens have different attitudes towards human or any other creature?

1. Ok maybe animals are different in the show than in real life.
2. She has eaten human? ew. When did that happen? Anyway my point remains, she had murdered people she most definitely thought were her equal. I don’t think she only murdered humans because she thought it was justified because it was like killing animals. I don’t think she cared whether humans are the same or higher than animals. She murdered humans when it suited her evil plans. Btw, I am willing to bet there was/are bigoted white people, who although they thought black people were inferior to them, still realized it would be wrong to murder a black person. It may not have been on the same level as killing a white person, but still wrong and still different than killing an animal.
3. So are you saying the heartbeat thing played a part in every evil act he/she committed going back to the time of the 3rd Doctor?
4. possibly, but we are still allowed to be skeptical of such a confession. What do you mean that Missy is as dishonest as the Doctor? I am pretty sure that the Master/Missy is more dishonest than the Doctor. I am also sure when the Doctor is dishonest, it is for more noble reasons than when Master/Missy is dishonest.
5. point taken
6. All things are fiction to some degree??? I don’t get it. Some fictional characters are not like real life people. In real life people live in some degree of grey(hopefully closer to the lighter side of grey). But fiction some characters live purely in the white(good guys) and some live purely in the black)villains. In the original series, the Master lived purely in the black. There was no grey area with him. He was a 100% pure villain. There was no good in him. The new series is supposed to be a continuation of the original series. I find it hard to see the Master from the original series doing what Missy is doing now. I don’t see the Roger Delgado or Anthony Ainley changing like this.
7. You did not address my 7th point.

Handman said:
While it’s true Tennant had some awful stuff (Rose romance, “I don’t wanna go” especially), I don’t recall the worst stuff being as bad as, say, “Kill the Moon”, “Robot of Sherwood”, or that viking episode that had an evil lion show up in the last 20 minutes and derail a character study. Clara was especially mishandled, she was given a few good farewells but kept coming back only to leave with a whimper.

Robot of Sherwood was okay for a comedy. But it was typical mediocre material of Gatiss. He did Idiot’s Lantern for Tennant, which I would say is on par with or worse quality than Sherwood. He did Victory of the Daleks which was the worst episode in a mostly fantastic Series 5. And he did the eye booger one for Capaldi which was quite bad. I liked his Ice warriors episode this series.

I agree that The Girl Who Died went a bit off the rails. Some enjoyable parts, and I liked the ending. But it was a letdown after Mathieson wrote the two best episodes the prior Series.

I was definitely disappointed in Kill the Moon. As a scientist, I actually normally really like bad science in sci-fi. Sometimes more than attempts at real science that are poorly executed. But this one went too far at the end, to the point where I had to roll my eyes. The original Ice Warriors is another Who that has science that is really just bad. However, I loved both of Harness’s other stories (the Zygon two parter and the Pyramid one). Kill the Moon didn’t quite work the way the problem was handed off to the humans at the end. But looking at it as a sort of trilogy, where it always comes down to the same kind of responsibility/decision theme, but with different outcomes, it’s a bit more enjoyable for me.

Anyway, I’ll take any of those over Fear Her.

Handman said:

Bingowings said:

Handman said:

Bingowings said:

Handman said:

My biggest complaint about Capaldi’s shows, is that even when there is one or two good stories, there are always three or four completely incoherent messes to bury them. I’m with Tobar. Can’t wait for Moffat to leave.

The character has been around since 1963 in television, audio, cinema, comic book and novel form and in every iteration over those many decades when it is bad it’s dull. When it’s good it’s astounding. It’s nothing to do with any particular show runner, though a fresh injection of creativity tends to spark the greater stories. For every Robots of Death there is a Horns of Nimon. For every Midnight there is a Fear Her. For every Heaven Sent there is a Sleep No More. Roll with it.

Of course it has something to do with the show runner, they set the tone for the show. Moffat is pretty much the new show’s JNT, he should have left years ago. For every Heaven Sent there is a Hell Bent. There are good ideas in the shows now, but too often they’re muddled with a bunch of other messes that the overall effectiveness is diminished. I think Capaldi is a great Doctor, but I can count the number of his stories I’d want to rewatch on one hand.

1. Mummy on the Orient Express
2. Flatline
3. The Zygon Invasion/The Zygon Inversion
4. Heaven Sent

I still have yet to complete Series 10, so I’m withholding any episodes there. However, from what I can tell, they’re getting away from nonsense stories and have more coherent plots. I think we’ve had some of the best episodes of the new series with Capaldi, but also some of the absolute worst. That’s not saying RTD was a genius, either, but the show is definitely in a rough spot creatively, and it shows in the ratings, the year hiatus, the soon-to-be cancellation of Class, and other such things.

The same is true of every age of Doctor Who.
I love “The Empty Child” “Dalek” and “The Unquiet Dead” but most of the Ninth Doctor is forgettable.
But Eccles had one year.

Exactly, three great re-watchable episodes in one year for the new show is quite something. I think Eccleston’s year is pretty underrated, farting aliens notwithstanding.

Tennant has “The Girl in the Fireplace” “Human Nature”, “Blink”, “Midnight”, "Turn Left"
and so much awful crap that I only watch out of devotion to the show.

While it’s true Tennant had some awful stuff (Rose romance, “I don’t wanna go” especially), I don’t recall the worst stuff being as bad as, say, “Kill the Moon”, “Robot of Sherwood”, or that viking episode that had an evil lion show up in the last 20 minutes and derail a character study. Clara was especially mishandled, she was given a few good farewells but kept coming back only to leave with a whimper.

The same is true of Tom Baker. I love watching all the actors who play the character but is “The Nightmare of Eden” essential viewing?

That era is not exactly my favorite from the classic show either, but that was a producer combating tons of other issues rather than a showrunner hanging on past his prime.

Kill the moon is a good story. Knocks spots off crap like Fear Her it’s on par with 42.

Bingowings said:

Handman said:

Bingowings said:

Handman said:

Bingowings said:

Handman said:

My biggest complaint about Capaldi’s shows, is that even when there is one or two good stories, there are always three or four completely incoherent messes to bury them. I’m with Tobar. Can’t wait for Moffat to leave.

The character has been around since 1963 in television, audio, cinema, comic book and novel form and in every iteration over those many decades when it is bad it’s dull. When it’s good it’s astounding. It’s nothing to do with any particular show runner, though a fresh injection of creativity tends to spark the greater stories. For every Robots of Death there is a Horns of Nimon. For every Midnight there is a Fear Her. For every Heaven Sent there is a Sleep No More. Roll with it.

Of course it has something to do with the show runner, they set the tone for the show. Moffat is pretty much the new show’s JNT, he should have left years ago. For every Heaven Sent there is a Hell Bent. There are good ideas in the shows now, but too often they’re muddled with a bunch of other messes that the overall effectiveness is diminished. I think Capaldi is a great Doctor, but I can count the number of his stories I’d want to rewatch on one hand.

1. Mummy on the Orient Express
2. Flatline
3. The Zygon Invasion/The Zygon Inversion
4. Heaven Sent

I still have yet to complete Series 10, so I’m withholding any episodes there. However, from what I can tell, they’re getting away from nonsense stories and have more coherent plots. I think we’ve had some of the best episodes of the new series with Capaldi, but also some of the absolute worst. That’s not saying RTD was a genius, either, but the show is definitely in a rough spot creatively, and it shows in the ratings, the year hiatus, the soon-to-be cancellation of Class, and other such things.

The same is true of every age of Doctor Who.
I love “The Empty Child” “Dalek” and “The Unquiet Dead” but most of the Ninth Doctor is forgettable.
But Eccles had one year.

Exactly, three great re-watchable episodes in one year for the new show is quite something. I think Eccleston’s year is pretty underrated, farting aliens notwithstanding.

Tennant has “The Girl in the Fireplace” “Human Nature”, “Blink”, “Midnight”, "Turn Left"
and so much awful crap that I only watch out of devotion to the show.

While it’s true Tennant had some awful stuff (Rose romance, “I don’t wanna go” especially), I don’t recall the worst stuff being as bad as, say, “Kill the Moon”, “Robot of Sherwood”, or that viking episode that had an evil lion show up in the last 20 minutes and derail a character study. Clara was especially mishandled, she was given a few good farewells but kept coming back only to leave with a whimper.

The same is true of Tom Baker. I love watching all the actors who play the character but is “The Nightmare of Eden” essential viewing?

That era is not exactly my favorite from the classic show either, but that was a producer combating tons of other issues rather than a showrunner hanging on past his prime.

Kill the moon is a good story.

I suppose we just don’t enjoy the same things. I recall it being the worst of all of Capaldi’s standalone stories.

Handman said:

Bingowings said:

Handman said:

Bingowings said:

Handman said:

Bingowings said:

Handman said:

My biggest complaint about Capaldi’s shows, is that even when there is one or two good stories, there are always three or four completely incoherent messes to bury them. I’m with Tobar. Can’t wait for Moffat to leave.

The character has been around since 1963 in television, audio, cinema, comic book and novel form and in every iteration over those many decades when it is bad it’s dull. When it’s good it’s astounding. It’s nothing to do with any particular show runner, though a fresh injection of creativity tends to spark the greater stories. For every Robots of Death there is a Horns of Nimon. For every Midnight there is a Fear Her. For every Heaven Sent there is a Sleep No More. Roll with it.

Of course it has something to do with the show runner, they set the tone for the show. Moffat is pretty much the new show’s JNT, he should have left years ago. For every Heaven Sent there is a Hell Bent. There are good ideas in the shows now, but too often they’re muddled with a bunch of other messes that the overall effectiveness is diminished. I think Capaldi is a great Doctor, but I can count the number of his stories I’d want to rewatch on one hand.

1. Mummy on the Orient Express
2. Flatline
3. The Zygon Invasion/The Zygon Inversion
4. Heaven Sent

I still have yet to complete Series 10, so I’m withholding any episodes there. However, from what I can tell, they’re getting away from nonsense stories and have more coherent plots. I think we’ve had some of the best episodes of the new series with Capaldi, but also some of the absolute worst. That’s not saying RTD was a genius, either, but the show is definitely in a rough spot creatively, and it shows in the ratings, the year hiatus, the soon-to-be cancellation of Class, and other such things.

The same is true of every age of Doctor Who.
I love “The Empty Child” “Dalek” and “The Unquiet Dead” but most of the Ninth Doctor is forgettable.
But Eccles had one year.

Exactly, three great re-watchable episodes in one year for the new show is quite something. I think Eccleston’s year is pretty underrated, farting aliens notwithstanding.

Tennant has “The Girl in the Fireplace” “Human Nature”, “Blink”, “Midnight”, "Turn Left"
and so much awful crap that I only watch out of devotion to the show.

While it’s true Tennant had some awful stuff (Rose romance, “I don’t wanna go” especially), I don’t recall the worst stuff being as bad as, say, “Kill the Moon”, “Robot of Sherwood”, or that viking episode that had an evil lion show up in the last 20 minutes and derail a character study. Clara was especially mishandled, she was given a few good farewells but kept coming back only to leave with a whimper.

The same is true of Tom Baker. I love watching all the actors who play the character but is “The Nightmare of Eden” essential viewing?

That era is not exactly my favorite from the classic show either, but that was a producer combating tons of other issues rather than a showrunner hanging on past his prime.

Kill the moon is a good story.

I suppose we just don’t enjoy the same things. I recall it being the worst of all of Capaldi’s standalone stories

Forest of the Night or Sleep No More are much more urksome and he’s still great in both of them.

Bingowings said:

Handman said:

Bingowings said:

Handman said:

Bingowings said:

Handman said:

Bingowings said:

Handman said:

My biggest complaint about Capaldi’s shows, is that even when there is one or two good stories, there are always three or four completely incoherent messes to bury them. I’m with Tobar. Can’t wait for Moffat to leave.

The character has been around since 1963 in television, audio, cinema, comic book and novel form and in every iteration over those many decades when it is bad it’s dull. When it’s good it’s astounding. It’s nothing to do with any particular show runner, though a fresh injection of creativity tends to spark the greater stories. For every Robots of Death there is a Horns of Nimon. For every Midnight there is a Fear Her. For every Heaven Sent there is a Sleep No More. Roll with it.

Of course it has something to do with the show runner, they set the tone for the show. Moffat is pretty much the new show’s JNT, he should have left years ago. For every Heaven Sent there is a Hell Bent. There are good ideas in the shows now, but too often they’re muddled with a bunch of other messes that the overall effectiveness is diminished. I think Capaldi is a great Doctor, but I can count the number of his stories I’d want to rewatch on one hand.

1. Mummy on the Orient Express
2. Flatline
3. The Zygon Invasion/The Zygon Inversion
4. Heaven Sent

I still have yet to complete Series 10, so I’m withholding any episodes there. However, from what I can tell, they’re getting away from nonsense stories and have more coherent plots. I think we’ve had some of the best episodes of the new series with Capaldi, but also some of the absolute worst. That’s not saying RTD was a genius, either, but the show is definitely in a rough spot creatively, and it shows in the ratings, the year hiatus, the soon-to-be cancellation of Class, and other such things.

The same is true of every age of Doctor Who.
I love “The Empty Child” “Dalek” and “The Unquiet Dead” but most of the Ninth Doctor is forgettable.
But Eccles had one year.

Exactly, three great re-watchable episodes in one year for the new show is quite something. I think Eccleston’s year is pretty underrated, farting aliens notwithstanding.

Tennant has “The Girl in the Fireplace” “Human Nature”, “Blink”, “Midnight”, "Turn Left"
and so much awful crap that I only watch out of devotion to the show.

While it’s true Tennant had some awful stuff (Rose romance, “I don’t wanna go” especially), I don’t recall the worst stuff being as bad as, say, “Kill the Moon”, “Robot of Sherwood”, or that viking episode that had an evil lion show up in the last 20 minutes and derail a character study. Clara was especially mishandled, she was given a few good farewells but kept coming back only to leave with a whimper.

The same is true of Tom Baker. I love watching all the actors who play the character but is “The Nightmare of Eden” essential viewing?

That era is not exactly my favorite from the classic show either, but that was a producer combating tons of other issues rather than a showrunner hanging on past his prime.

Kill the moon is a good story.

I suppose we just don’t enjoy the same things. I recall it being the worst of all of Capaldi’s standalone stories

Forest of the Night or Sleep No More are much more urksome and he’s still great in both of them.

I had completely forgotten about Forest of the Night, and I’m upset that I now remember it. And yeah, Capaldi is the best of the new Doctors, I just think it’s a shame he hasn’t had many good stories and quite a few stinkers.

Well . . . this should be an interesting Christmas Special . . .

Warbler said:

Well . . . this should be an interesting Christmas Special . . .

I’m on board with the casting decision. I just hope it has a bit more charm than the previous (pseudo) appearance. What we saw yesterday was an improvement, imo.

(Really trying to phrase it in a way that doesn’t blatantly spoil as it has been less than 24hr).

I could have sworn the person in question had passed away. I am glad that I was mistaken about that.

Warbler said:

I could have sworn the person in question had passed away. I am glad that I was mistaken about that.

This is getting trickier to discuss without spoilers. 😃

If you’re thinking of the person from 2013, no they have not passed away! If you’re thinking of someone else, yes they certainly have.

towne32 said:

Warbler said:

I could have sworn the person in question had passed away. I am glad that I was mistaken about that.

This is getting trickier to discuss without spoilers. 😃

If you’re thinking of the person from 2013, no they have not passed away! If you’re thinking of someone else, yes they certainly have.

I was thinking the person from 2013 had passed away. I knew the someone else had passed away a long time ago.

Has there ever been any official word on whether a character in Doctor Who who meets an older version of themselves, interacts and affects the timeline remembers the encounter?

I’m thinking mainly of Missy and Masty here - are we to assume she always remembered what happened in this last episode before he regenerated into her? Or is it a case of time retconning memories only after the events happened to her?

Or are we just not supposed to ask?!

Mark’s Down On Your Syntax said:

Has there ever been any official word on whether a character in Doctor Who who meets an older version of themselves, interacts and affects the timeline remembers the encounter?

I’m thinking mainly of Missy and Masty here - are we to assume she always remembered what happened in this last episode before he regenerated into her? Or is it a case of time retconning memories only after the events happened to her?

Or are we just not supposed to ask?!

There is often a throwaway line about how the timelines are out of sync, or similar, thus having only the latest incarnation able to remember the events. This was a crucial part of Day of the Doctor.

In last night’s episode, however, that seems to be ‘mostly’ true for Missy, who does perform that trick that she and the Master have a vague recollection of, sans any real detail. She and Harold/Master did have the typical conversation about timelines being out of sync, as well.

SilverWook said:

Warbler said:

towne32 said:

Warbler said:

I could have sworn the person in question had passed away. I am glad that I was mistaken about that.

This is getting trickier to discuss without spoilers. 😃

If you’re thinking of the person from 2013, no they have not passed away! If you’re thinking of someone else, yes they certainly have.

I was thinking the person from 2013 had passed away. I knew the someone else had passed away a long time ago.

The second actor to play that role passed less than a year after playing the part.

I know that, but for some reason I had thought the guy from 2013 had also passed away.